Asking a bride's parents for her hand

[Myrnalene]

There is a huge (HUGE) discussion on another forum I read about the practice of a potential groom discussing his intentions to marry with his bride-to-be's parents. I have to say, I would hope that any man who I would be on the verge of marrying would know that this would not play very well with me. My objections to this are twofold:

1) It comes, of course, from a time when the woman was regarded as the property of her parents and was not autonomous. I would feel that by asking my parent's permission, my boyfriend was denying my agency as a person. The only answer that matters is mine.

2) Dude, I want my mom to find out about any engagement from me. That's my mom (and also my dad, and sister). If I could not have the exciting moment of sharing the news with them because the man had already told them, I would feel robbed.

The most compelling reason I saw on the other forum to uphold this tradition was given by a woman with very old-fashioned parents, who told her boyfriend to ask them in order to keep peace in the family. While I understand her personal choice, are we perpetuating the idea of women as lessor beings by participating in outdated traditions such as this?*

What about the female asking the male's parents for his hand? How would this play with same-sex couples?


*Vox also had some interesting points for the pro-asking side but I will let him speak for himself.

[Exy]

The idea is so outdated and nutty it's not even funny. I can't imagine the dude would would decide to propose to his darling's parents rather than to her. If there are still people doing that in this day and age I'm shocked.

[The Original An Gadaí]

I think if my prospective wife had traditional parents it might be wise for us to feign a hand asking, it would be of course up to the bride to decide.

[Skald the Rhymer]

There is a huge (HUGE) discussion on another forum I read about the practice of a potential groom discussing his intentions to marry with his bride-to-be's parents. I have to say, I would hope that any man who I would be on the verge of marrying would know that this would not play very well with me. My objections to this are twofold:

1) It comes, of course, from a time when the woman was regarded as the property of her parents and was not autonomous. I would feel that by asking my parent's permission, my boyfriend was denying my agency as a person. The only answer that matters is mine.

No, it comes froma time when the woman was regarded as the property of her father. Which, of course, makes it worse.

[Myrnalene]

The idea is so outdated and nutty it's not even funny. I can't imagine the dude would would decide to propose to his darling's parents rather than to her. If there are still people doing that in this day and age I'm shocked.

Oh, there are. There were quite a few of them posting on this other forum, talking about how it shows respect to her family, etc. The one I couldn't understand was "Well, I'm very close to my family so I would want them to know." You're close to your family so you want them to find out from someone who isn't you??

There are also stories of the woman's father throwing a hissy because he wasn't asked, and threatening to boycott the wedding, etc. Of course, I assume that such fathers must be assholes in general.

[Orual]

Any man who thinks he should be asking my parents for my hand, is not a man I should ever, ever marry.

I'm pretty sure my father wouldn't expect it, my mom would get pissed, and I would be profoundly insulted.

[Cluricaun]

Jeez, I don't see the big deal on this one. It's nothing more than politesse at this point, just a goofy tradition same as having the father "give" the bride away at the actual ceremony. I asked my future father in law for his permission to marry his daughter because.....she wanted me to. I would have done it anyway because as old fashioned and chauvanistic as it may be, I consider if I'm man enough to take a wife, I'm man enough to look her old man in the eyes and tell him so. It's just a respect thing, as outdated as it may be.

[Sarahfeena]

I'm of two minds on this. My husband didn't do it, and wouldn't have in a million years, nor would I have wanted him to. Then again, we were 30 years old, living completely on our own, and with pretty decent careers.

Then there's the example of my best friend. She and her intended were pretty young and of different (very different) religions. They were not established at all and had had some conflict and drama in their relationship. Her dad had raised her alone since her mom had died when we were 12, and had had his share of difficulty with his daughter. My friend is very feminist, and would never have asked or wanted her intended to "ask" her father. However, the guy took it upon himself to go to her dad (quaking in his boots, from what I've heard), to explain how much he really wanted to marry her and why it was going to work out against, from what it seemed, all odds. While, as I said, it wasn't her idea, I think she appreciated that the guy was hoping to get her dad on board with it, by talking in a man-to-man kind of way. I'm not sure that's exactly the same thing as "asking for her hand," but I can see why he did it, and I do think it helped diffuse some of the tensions. So, in that case, I can see the purpose of it.

[Orual]

I would have done it anyway because as old fashioned and chauvanistic as it may be, I consider if I'm man enough to take a wife, I'm man enough to look her old man in the eyes and tell him so. It's just a respect thing, as outdated as it may be.

I prefer a man who has respect for me, rather than respect for my nearest relative-with-a-penis.

[Myrnalene]

Jeez, I don't see the big deal on this one. It's nothing more than politesse at this point, just a goofy tradition same as having the father "give" the bride away at the actual ceremony. I asked my future father in law for his permission to marry his daughter because.....she wanted me to. I would have done it anyway because as old fashioned and chauvanistic as it may be, I consider if I'm man enough to take a wife, I'm man enough to look her old man in the eyes and tell him so. It's just a respect thing, as outdated as it may be.

What would you have done if he said no?

[Exy]

I prefer a man who has respect for me, rather than respect for my nearest relative-with-a-penis.

Your avatar is a great counterpoint to this thread.

[Cluricaun]

I prefer a man who has respect for me, rather than respect for my nearest relative-with-a-penis.

The whole marriage thing is fraught, fraught I say with anachronistic patriarchal nonsense. Like the whole "Honeymoon" term decended from the concept that the brides father had to give the groom a month's worth of mead in addition to whatever dowry (speaking of, that dowry idea is why in many cases the brides family pays for more of the bill for the wedding than the grooms does.) was rendered.

I'm as progressive as the next caveman, but really there's nothing wrong with asking her dad.

But hey, if you have an issue with your prospective husband stepping up and talking to your father like an equal, man to man, then that's cool too. They're your daddy issues, not mine.

[hatesfreedom]

Jesus, what tradition will women complain needlessly about next. Myrna, the answer is it wouldn't have mattered. It's a tradition not a goddamn law. But no, of course it somehow slights the entire female experience or some other such trite. Get over yourselves.

[Cluricaun]

What would you have done if he said no?

Why challenged him to a duel of course.

I...actually don't know. That would present an issue. Of course my father in law to be is a cool guy, we're good friends. That might be different if he was some crazy asshole.

[Exy]

But hey, if you have an issue with your prospective husband stepping up and talking to your father like an equal, man to man, then that's cool too. They're your daddy issues, not mine.

You framing this in nonsensical machismo and insulting others doesn't actually make your point any more valid.

[vison]

. . .
But hey, if you have an issue with your prospective husband stepping up and talking to your father like an equal, man to man, then that's cool too. They're your daddy issues, not mine.

But that's not what this is about, is it? This is not, "Hey, Buck, yer daughter and me are gettin' hitched, kewl, eh?"

No, this is: "Mr. Father, may I please marry your little girl?"

I've been married for 44 7/12 years and my husband didn't "ask" my dad for my hand.

Nowadays it would be even sillier.

[Sarahfeena]

Moderator note: Hey, guys, let's avoid the personal insults, OK? That's not fun for anyone.

[Cluricaun]

You framing this in nonsensical machismo and insulting others doesn't actually make your point any more valid.

That was really more in response to the shrill "reduction of men to just a swinging penis" feminist bullshit rhetoric mentioned above. I'm not asking her dad because we has penis wielders get to decide what the women get to do, it's out of respect to tradition and what is the social norm.

ETA- And my own personal concept of how a man should conduct himself.

[Myrnalene]

But hey, if you have an issue with your prospective husband stepping up and talking to your father like an equal, man to man, then that's cool too. They're your daddy issues, not mine.

Lol no, Ryan, the point is that is cuts the woman out of the equation entirely, makes her a passive non-participant in her own life. Now, in your case your fiancee wanted you to ask and I have no desire to quarrel with her choice. But do you really not see how asking her father without her prior knowledge would be insulting?

And what if the man asks the dad first and the dad gives his consent but then the woman says no? That'd be rather embarrassing, wouldn't it?

[Sarahfeena]

These days, don't most guys do the ask-her-father's-hand after it's already been settled between the couple? More of a "we'd like your blessing" kind of thing?

[hatesfreedom]

These days, don't most guys do the ask-her-father's-hand after it's already been settled between the couple? More of a "we'd like your blessing" kind of thing?

Yes, that's pretty much how the tradition has evolved.

[hatesfreedom]

Lol no, Ryan, the point is that is cuts the woman out of the equation entirely, makes her a passive non-participant in her own life. Now, in your case your fiancee wanted you to ask and I have no desire to quarrel with her choice. But do you really not see how asking her father without her prior knowledge would be insulting?

And what if the man asks the dad first and the dad gives his consent but then the woman says no? That'd be rather embarrassing, wouldn't it?

Do you understand that a marriage involves two parties and not just the womans opinion of what's right and wrong? I mean women can ask men to marry them now, so knock yourselves out.
If you end up that heartbroken over this meaningless formality then feel free not to marry them.

[OneCentStamp]

Lol no, Ryan, the point is that is cuts the woman out of the equation entirely, makes her a passive non-participant in her own life. Now, in your case your fiancee wanted you to ask and I have no desire to quarrel with her choice. But do you really not see how asking her father without her prior knowledge would be insulting?

I don't know about Ryan, but I didn't take your OP as meaning "asking the father's permission to marry his daughter before talking to the daughter about it." Now I'm looking at this differently. In Ryan's case, he and his fiancee had obviously discussed the whole marriage thing well before Ryan talked to her dad about it, as evidenced by the fact that he did it at her behest. I think we're talking about two different scenarios here.

[OneCentStamp]

These days, don't most guys do the ask-her-father's-hand after it's already been settled between the couple? More of a "we'd like your blessing" kind of thing?

Exactly, this is what I took the OP to mean, and so I was thinking "yeah, it's archaic, but it's not that offensive."

[Cluricaun]

Lol no, Ryan, the point is that is cuts the woman out of the equation entirely, makes her a passive non-participant in her own life. Now, in your case your fiancee wanted you to ask and I have no desire to quarrel with her choice. But do you really not see how asking her father without her prior knowledge would be insulting?

And what if the man asks the dad first and the dad gives his consent but then the woman says no? That'd be rather embarrassing, wouldn't it?

What? How on earth....She's still free to say no to my proposal. This isn't some middle eastern civil rights hell hole where I bought her from him or something and if she refuses I get to set her on fire to save face. There's risk in asking, but there's risk in not asking too. There are many flavors of embarrasment. I'd rather find out if he has a problem with this concept before getting married rather than having it be a festering issue down the road because he's always hated me and thought I was some lout and it comes out over Christmas dinner in 2031 that he hates me. That would be more embarrassing I think.

[Glazer]

The idea is so outdated and nutty it's not even funny. I can't imagine the dude would would decide to propose to his darling's parents rather than to her. If there are still people doing that in this day and age I'm shocked.

I knew a girl in Augusta, who after the third date, told me I had to interview with the Head of Family. Her Uncle the HoF asked me about my family, where we came from, my education, and my plans for the future.

"Amanda" explaned to me that I had to do this or she would be cut off from "The Family" and own her own.

As a minor(under 25) single member of the Family she had to live at home unless in school. She also had to pay half of any money she made to "The Family". Single adults had to pay 25% and could live on their own. Married members paid 10% and where given a house as a wedding gift. "The Family" also took care of all senior members for life.

I was told that unless I went back to school for my Bachalor's degree I would never be allowed to do more than date his neice.

"Amanda" said he must have liked me because he told everyone before me that they could no longer see her.

That is a very old fasioned family.

[Inner Stickler]

That is a scaryass family.

My thoughts on the subject are this. Regardless of your personal feelings on the matter, if your girlfriend would be offended at you asking her father for her hand, don't do it. If she would be upset at you asking her first, ask permission. If you wanna pull her aside and say, How would you feel about me asking for your father's permission after proposing, go ahead and do that. But I have a hard time seeing asking the father before the girlfriend as anything other than paternalistic and patronizing.

[Cluricaun]

A few things. First, on re-read that jab about "daddy issues" was meant to be funnier than it came across. I apologize for any insult taken or given.

Second, OCS is right on the money. We had already discussed the engagement before I asked, saving me at least that potential pitfall.

Thirdly, I don't care if everyone else things it was wrong. That's how I was taught that a man conducts himself and damned if I'm alright with that. Now pardon, John Wayne, Ward Cleaver and I will be over in the corner drinking whiskey and complaining about what the beatniks are doing to the world.

[hatesfreedom]

I knew a girl in Augusta, who after the third date, told me I had to interview with the Head of Family. Her Uncle the HoF asked me about my family, where we came from, my education, and my plans for the future.

"Amanda" explaned to me that I had to do this or she would be cut off from "The Family" and own her own.

As a minor(under 25) single member of the Family she had to live at home unless in school. She also had to pay half of any money she made to "The Family". Single adults had to pay 25% and could live on their own. Married members paid 10% and where given a house as a wedding gift. "The Family" also took care of all senior members for life.

I was told that unless I went back to school for my Bachalor's degree I would never be allowed to do more than date his neice.

"Amanda" said he must have liked me because he told everyone before me that they could no longer see her.

That is a very old fasioned family.

the financial support structure is a rather interesting idea

[vison]

It's the "permission" thing. Nuts to that.

Jeez, even my grandpa, who was born in 1882, and was about as old-fashioned as they come, would have thought it odd had anyone asked his "permission" to marry his daughter.

[Myrnalene]

Do you understand that a marriage involves two parties and not just the womans opinion of what's right and wrong?

Exactly. It involves two parties, and those parties are not the groom and the bride's father.

What? How on earth....She's still free to say no to my proposal. This isn't some middle eastern civil rights hell hole where I bought her from him or something and if she refuses I get to set her on fire to save face.

Right, I was too strong in my wording. It doesn't make her a a passive non-participant in her own life, but is does imply that she is not the person who makes the decisions on her own behalf. And that's rather condescending.

Let me again say, I have no problem with the bride wanting this conversation to take place and with asking her groom to do it. I personally would never ask my boyfriend to do it, and would be pissed if he took it upon himself to do it (but would be more concerned that he apparently didn't know me very well). I frankly can't wrap my mind around a female wanting such a thing to take place, but it's still her choice. As long as it is her choice, I can respect that.

[Glazer]

the financial support structure is a rather interesting idea

Yeah they had quarterly family meeting to plan who needed what money to start bussness or go to school. Also to plan on investments. As members needed bigger houses the smaller houses would go to young people and older folks as their kids moved out.

They had doctors and lawers in Family as well as just about every thing else.

[Katriona]

My parents would have laughed themselves sick if DH had presented himself in such a manner. Not somehting they need to feel "respected" or whatever, and definitely not something I'd want.

My brother, on the other hand, felt compelled to do so. Which is probably a good thing, since his FIL turned out to be a serial killer.

[vison]

Yeah they had quarterly family meeting to plan who needed what money to start bussness or go to school. Also to plan on investments. As members needed bigger houses the smaller houses would go to young people and older folks as their kids moved out.

They had doctors and lawers in Family as well as just about every thing else.

A lot of Indian families operate that way. Was this an Indian family? I mean Indian as in, from India.

Not a bad way to live if you're brought up to it, I guess.

[vison]

My parents would have laughed themselves sick if DH had presented himself in such a manner. Not somehting they need to feel "respected" or whatever, and definitely not something I'd want.

My brother, on the other hand, felt compelled to do so. Which is probably a good thing, since his FIL turned out to be a serial killer.

:shock: :shock: :shock:

[Orual]

A few things. First, on re-read that jab about "daddy issues" was meant to be funnier than it came across. I apologize for any insult taken or given.

Second, OCS is right on the money. We had already discussed the engagement before I asked, saving me at least that potential pitfall.

Thirdly, I don't care if everyone else things it was wrong. That's how I was taught that a man conducts himself and damned if I'm alright with that. Now pardon, John Wayne, Ward Cleaver and I will be over in the corner drinking whiskey and complaining about what the beatniks are doing to the world.

Cluricaun, clearly we have had very different upbringings. I just do not grok the whole 'stepping up to the father, man-to-man' thing as it relates to marriage. (And the relative-with-a-penis thing wasn't meant in a venomous man-hating way. More in confusion.)

I certainly didn't mean to insult you, or the way you and your fiancee are going about the whole engagement/marriage mishegoss.

As far as I'm concerned, however:

A) I would never request such a conversation take place between my dad and my fiance.

B) Anyone who knows me well, know my opinions on such matters, kooky as they may be.

C) Should I find a man who wishes to spend his life with me, despite my numerous crippling personality defects (feminism, really, being the least of them), I am willing to bet that he won't mind going with me on this.

[Glazer]

A lot of Indian families operate that way. Was this an Indian family? I mean Indian as in, from India.

Not a bad way to live if you're brought up to it, I guess.

Nope Old South all the way. The Family Home that Head of Family lives in dates from just after the war. The War between the States. It is my understanding that they built that house after they lost their Plantation in the war.

[Hatshepsut]

Put me solidly in the Myrna / Exy / Skald / Orual (and anyone else who agrees with them) camp. That said, it is none of my business if other people want to follow that tradition.

What's with the whole "asking the FATHER" anyway? If you are going to ask a parental unit, shouldn't it be BOTH parents? Even though I'd still find it objectionable for me personally, it really wouldn't strike me as quite such a dreadful behavior if it were "asking both parents for their blessing" rather than "asking the father for his permission."

And as long as we're evening things up, shouldn't the bride-to-be ask the groom's parents for their blessing to marry their son?

[Myrnalene]

The War between the States.

The War of Northern Aggression, you mean.

[RabbitMage]

This thread needs a big ol' PATRIARCHY sign or something.

It's outdated, and I could very easily see it being insulting. The old fashioned part of me, though, thinks it would be sweet in a way for me to talk to my partner's family before popping the question. But yeah, it would be less about asking permission and more about "I'm doing this regardless but I'd be happier doing it with your blessing". Having said that...I know some people with crazy families and might prefer to give them as little opportunity to object as possible.

[vison]

Nope Old South all the way. The Family Home that Head of Family lives in dates from just after the war. The War between the States. It is my understanding that they built that house after they lost their Plantation in the war.

Wow. Well, it's not my cup of tea, but it's not a bad system. Really.

[Taumpy]

What about the female asking the male's parents for his hand? How would this play with same-sex couples?

I think these are interesting questions. Does this ever actually happen? The only way I've ever heard it happening was a groom asking his potential father-in-law. Really, guys, I think this is why you can't wave concerns about the tradition away as "feminist bullshit", it's built entirely around the concept of females as property. I think it's time we abandoned this one.

Personally, I wouldn't do this for anyone. But I can't see myself marrying a woman who holds too much to traditions like this anyway. I wouldn't be opposed to merely asking for her parents' blessing as a couple, but permission? No, screw that.

[Exy]

I think these are interesting questions. Does this ever actually happen? The only way I've ever heard it happening was a groom asking his potential father-in-law.

One day, a handsome man will ask my father permission to make me his butt-buddy for keepsies.

[Cluricaun]

What's with the whole "asking the FATHER" anyway? If you are going to ask a parental unit, shouldn't it be BOTH parents?

To be fair, her mom is dead and I ain't superstitious enough to have tried. I'd have asked both were that not the case.

I guess I'm just a fairly liberal valued guy who had a pretty conservative upbringing and this idea in my head that being a "man" isn't something that you're born, it's something that you aspire to. Kind of like the old canard that anyone can be a father, but it takes someone special to be a dad. Anyone can be a guy, but it takes manners and responsibility to be a man.

[Zuul]

I want a very traditional marriage. As my father is dead, the oldest male member of my immediate family will have to step up, so that'll be my sixteen year old brother. After arrangements are made between my intended and my brother (my contributions to the family should be worth a minimum of two cows and a goat, anything less would be an insult), I shall be stolen from my bed in the night. My head will be shaved, I'll be dressed in the clothes of a young soldier, and then shall have seven consecutive nights of conjugation with my new husband in isolation before we shall announce our union to the community at large. At this point there shall be a parade through town and a mourning ceremony for my lost virginity. I will be expected to weep and publicly burn all of the items of my childhood, along with the shorn hair that was saved.

Then my brother, showing honor for our new union, shall sacrifice one of the cows given as my bride price in order to bathe us in its blood and feed the partygoers.

It's really quite beautiful.

[Exy]

To be fair, her mom is dead and I ain't superstitious enough to have tried. I'd have asked both were that not the case.

I guess I'm just a fairly liberal valued guy who had a pretty conservative upbringing and this idea in my head that being a "man" isn't something that you're born, it's something that you aspire to. Kind of like the old canard that anyone can be a father, but it takes someone special to be a dad. Anyone can be a guy, but it takes manners and responsibility to be a man.

Can you possibly offer any explanation that doesn't involve some unexplained appeal towards "being a man"? Because it's not obvious to me -- and I suspect it's not obvious to others here -- what macho blowhardery has to do with this. Why in the world would "being a man" necessitate asking your lady's father permission to marry her?

Wax as poetic as you like about being a man and how manly you feel doing man stuff all day with your man self. But talking about looking soulfully into daddy's eyes man-to-man doesn't actually explain anything, because there's no obvious reason why "being a man" requires performing some ridiculous imitation of the old-timey "manly" tradition of haggling over dowry.

[Zuul]

(PS: I would prefer mini-cows and pygmy goats to be used for my bride price. They're cute. )

[Cluricaun]

Well I started typing out something, but ran into the word "gentleman", which kind of seems to have me in a manly man feedback loop. I guess the closest I could bring you is that there are many different worlds out there. Mine is one, Glazer's Amanda is another, and yours is yours. In mine, you don't gain the approval of the older men in your world by feats of assorted derring do. You do so by becoming a gentleman and yes, that does involve some chivalrous behavior and certain attitudes that you take towards your partner. This is the way I was raised, and I've never had an issue with it so I never rebelled against it. It's kind and open and loving. The older Cluricaun's are some classy dudes. The worst thing you can be is what the Russians would call "nekulturny". Not cultured. Crass for no good reason. Ignorant of the ways of doing things. At the time that I asked my fiancee to marry me, I was faced with a choice. I could ask her dad or I could not. Not being able to know his feelings on the matter without tipping too much of my own hand, I chose to go the polite and deferential way and ask. I don't think that asking could offend him, but not asking if it were expected would reflect badly upon me as a person, and therefore a potential husband. I manned up and asked him for his permission to marry his daughter. I did the right thing for me and for my situation.

[Zuul]

Wax as poetic as you like about being a man and how manly you feel doing man stuff all day with your man self. But talking about looking soulfully into daddy's eyes man-to-man doesn't actually explain anything, because there's no obvious reason why "being a man" requires performing some ridiculous imitation of the old-timey "manly" tradition of haggling over dowry.

It's not about the woman being property or anything sexist, at least not in this case. It's about showing respect. Cluricaun plans on marrying this woman, he asked her, and then he ensured that he had the blessing of his future father-in-law.

In some people's ideals, when you get married it isn't just you and your honey disappearing into the sunset together. It's about both families being joined through the union. His future wife's surviving parent is going to have an influence on their family.

He didn't get her dad's permission because he was taking his property. He did it because he was joining the family and this was a gesture to show that he was serious about being part of the family and would respect whatever traditions that family held. "Being a man" isn't about machismo, but about being a mature adult of the male persuasion.

[Cluricaun]

You said it better than I could get it out, thanks.