Cervaise takes ivan astikov to the Thunderdome (WTC Controlled Demolition (eyewitness accounts))

[Cervaise]

[modhat:2x3lflv2]I went ahead and split this post from the original WTC thread and gave it a new home in the Thunderdome, where it belongs. Of course, the 9/11 attacks are still a sore subject, but all the same, keep the insults out of The Crucible.[/modhat:2x3lflv2]

Seriously? Seriously?

Thousands of people were killed in a terrorist attack. Thousands. Crushed horribly, or incinerated, when their building came down around them, or burning jet fuel consumed them, or their passenger jet slammed into something. Tens of thousands more mourn their loss. All less than ten years ago. The wounds are still fresh. Very fresh. And none of that takes into consideration the years of national and international agony that resulted, as Gucci-loafered thugs used the incident as rationalization for bloody-minded empire building.

And you, you anonymous Internet bloviator, you want to take this horrifying reality and reduce it to an abstraction, a mental playground, on which to exercise your feeble powers of imagination. Thousands of people are dead, and you are using their gravestones for an afternoon of Conspiracy Checkers.

You don't even seem particularly serious about it. You've said in this thread, more or less, hey, I'm not claiming to be a serious believer, I'm just looking at the history and seeing what I can come up with. At least bookbuster seems to be an actual adherent to and follower of the conspiracy line.

You? You're just havin' a larf.

And not even a particularly good one, either. You haven't actually taken any positions; no, you're just asking questions, you're just examining the evidence, you're just poking and poking and poking in hopes of finding a sore spot. As has been amply demonstrated in this thread, you've been debating dishonestly, engaging in logical fallacy, moving your goalposts, and otherwise sliding around your greasy little playpen.

And then you, you, start throwing us attitude when we bristle at your shallow, insensitive, callously empty musings? Seriously?

You want to talk about puzzled, I'm genuinely puzzled how somebody like you gets his jollies pissing on a collective grave.

So you can take your disingenuous eyelash-batting bullshit, and you can shove it up your ass.

[Baldwin]

I've asked MsRobyn to fix the thread title, since the OP was directed at Ivan Astikov, rather than bookbuster.

I once told Ivan he was "dogshit on my shoes". However, just this morning I heard about a program in San Francisco to produce energy from dogshit. So, Ivan is literally more useless than dogshit.

I had decided to cut Ivan some slack, and overlook the fact that he's an unrepentant, cowardly criminal who victimized a lot of people. But he kind of compounds that by being a willfully ignorant cunt.

[Fish]

I didn't realize there was a Wilfully Ignorant Cunt Compound. Does it have guard towers?

[Baldwin]

I didn't realize there was a Wilfully Ignorant Cunt Compound. Does it have guard towers?

Nothing but guard towers. Population is 100% guards, 0% inmates; that way nobody has to admit they're wrong about anything.

[Fish]

Quis cusdodiet ipsos custodes?

That's Latin for "who's got the custard?"

[hatesfreedom]

After 9/11 I flew to Las Vegas for eighty bucks and I stayed in the Bellagio and the Venetian for seventy bucks.

so. uh.

as an American I make the best of things.

[Exy]

waaaah waaaah waaaah

The fact that people died in the WTC attacks has no bearing on whether or not the generally accepted story behind the attacks is accurate. The 9/11 truthers are obviously wrong and stupid but they should hardly be expected to shut up under the withering argument of "yeah but people died so HOW DARE YOU?!"

[ivan astikov]

Come see the censorship inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed!

You've summed up my attitude exactly, Excalibre. How dare they try to deny me my right to make a complete ass out of myself, just because they are too chicken shit-lily-livered to think about such awful things!

You'd think nobody had ever considered using an event from history in a fictional piece.

Now, when do the insults start? I want my first Thunderdoming to be epic!

[TheFlame]

I've asked MsRobyn to fix the thread title, since the OP was directed at Ivan Astikov, rather than bookbuster.

MsRobyn isn't online, so I fixed the title.

[jali]

Come see the censorship inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed!

You've summed up my attitude exactly, Excalibre. How dare they try to deny me my right to make a complete ass out of myself, just because they are too chicken shit-lily-livered to think about such awful things!

You'd think nobody had ever considered using an event from history in a fictional piece.

Now, when do the insults start? I want my first Thunderdoming to be epic!

I just HAD to post in your first (heh-heh, I'm sure they will be others, someday) Thunderdome pitting. I have nothing bad to say about you, unless you skip the invasion and don't bring my tea.

[ivan astikov]

The main invasion may have to be put on hold while I mop up a few Domebo dissidents. I'll try not to delay too long.

[Julie]

All less than ten years ago. The wounds are still fresh. Very fresh.

While I haven't read the thread and have no desire to do so, the 911 wounds are not at all fresh for me.

[ivan astikov]

I appreciated Revenant Thresholds last thoughtful post in the thread this was split from, but that Cervaise can masturbate with wire-wool mittens, as far as I'm concerned.

[SmartAleq]

So I guess I have to stop making concentration camp jokes then, right? Seriously, human history is just one damned tragic catastrophe after another and it's pretty hard to decide that one is significantly more tragic than ALL the rest just because it happened in our backyard and not that long ago. I can't get that pissed off about it and I'm American--I certainly don't expect people from other countries entirely to stand about in gape jawed trembling sympathy ad infinitum over our tragedy. In return, I expect to be cut a smidgen of slack for Jew/pizza jokes, Ethiopian jokes and all the rest of the whistling past the graveyard funning I do about everybody else's tragedies.

[Exy]

So I guess I have to stop making concentration camp jokes then, right? Seriously, human history is just one damned tragic catastrophe after another and it's pretty hard to decide that one is significantly more tragic than ALL the rest just because it happened in our backyard and not that long ago. I can't get that pissed off about it and I'm American--I certainly don't expect people from other countries entirely to stand about in gape jawed trembling sympathy ad infinitum over our tragedy. In return, I expect to be cut a smidgen of slack for Jew/pizza jokes, Ethiopian jokes and all the rest of the whistling past the graveyard funning I do about everybody else's tragedies.

Heh heh, I agree. Killing Jews is funny!

[Truth and Beauty]

unrepentant, cowardly criminal? dogshit on my shoes? That's a little harsh just for discussing 9/11 conspiracy theories. Hyperbolic much?

(hijack) Hey Exy! Just wanted to tell you that I've really been enjoying your comments so far, like your last post in this thread or your retard comment to What Exit over here viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1478 Keep up the good work! (end hijack)

[What Exit?]

(hijack) Hey Exy! Just wanted to tell you that I've really been enjoying your comments so far, like your last post in this thread or your retard comment to What Exit over here viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1478 Keep up the good work! (end hijack)

What are you smoking? He made no retarded comment to me in that thread. In fact I hope to get that thread unlocked. I accidentally posted to it after it was locked.

[Truth and Beauty]

What are you smoking?

A nice big fat one. Thanks for asking.

He made no retarded comment to me in that thread. In fact I hope to get that thread unlocked. I accidentally posted to it after it was locked.

Maybe you missed it, I was referring to this post from Exy to you: "Instead of retardifying it just close it. Jesus." after you changed the thread title.

[What Exit?]

[quote=Truth and Beauty]

What are you smoking?

A nice big fat one. Thanks for asking.

He made no retarded comment to me in that thread. In fact I hope to get that thread unlocked. I accidentally posted to it after it was locked.

Maybe you missed it, I was referring to this post from Exy to you: "Instead of retardifying it just close it. Jesus." after you changed the thread title.[/quote:13xrzf2u]
You might want to cut back on the smoke a bit.

Excalibre was replying to BiblioCat who made the title change and later closed the thread. I was just a member posting in that one.

[Baldwin]

unrepentant, cowardly criminal? dogshit on my shoes? That's a little harsh just for discussing 9/11 conspiracy theories. Hyperbolic much?

No; that had nothing to do with the WTC thread. I see you're not well-acquainted with Ivan.

[Truth and Beauty]

[quote=What Exit?][quote="Truth and Beauty":1qc76rs0]

Excalibre was replying to BiblioCat who made the title change and later closed the thread. I was just a member posting in that one.

[/quote:1qc76rs0][/quote:1qc76rs0]Whoops! Well anyway, BiblioCat, What Exit, same same.

[Truth and Beauty]

No; that had nothing to do with the WTC thread.

Here we go. Go righ on carrying a grudge and bringing it in to other threads that have nothing to do with it. One of the things I loved about the SDMB. "What you say you don't like tipping? Well in another thread you said you like fat women so we know what your opinion's worth!!!!" "You hate sushi? Well I remember that you think PETA is stupid so where's your logic bucko?" Just give it a rest already.

[ivan astikov]

And I wouldn't mind if he was "well-acquainted" with me.

You'd think we'd been co-workers for 20 fucking years.

[jali]

unrepentant, cowardly criminal? dogshit on my shoes? That's a little harsh just for discussing 9/11 conspiracy theories. Hyperbolic much?

No; that had nothing to do with the WTC thread. I see you're not well-acquainted with Ivan.

From now on, when I see your name I will be reminded of a film I haven't seen. I just remember the title.

[spoiler:1y49bnjf]The Grudge[/spoiler:1y49bnjf]

[Chimera]

I wouldn't necessarily call it a grudge, although the language is a bit strong.

Through several threads on the dope, Ivan made it pretty clear that he had been a criminal in his past and not only didn't have any sympathy for his victims, but blamed them for being (insert desired word here) enough to be victimized by him and other criminals. That the only reason he stopped being a criminal was that he was stupid enough to victimize a bigger criminal, someone in a position to make him go away permanently.

For my part, I simply make a note of that kind of thinking and consider that person to be without honor, integrity, Humanity or intelligence - not someone I desire to know or allow close to me - and move on.

But it also makes it very clear that his comments and arguments on such issues are entirely without merit.

[Diana]

None of that changes the fact that there is nothing sacred about 9/11 that precludes speculation, no matter how ridiculous that speculation may be.

[featherlou]

So it's official? People outside of the US can stop talking about 9/11 with the metaphorical kid gloves on now?

[Vinyl Turnip]

None of that changes the fact that there is nothing sacred about 9/11 that precludes speculation, no matter how ridiculous that speculation may be.

This is true, which is why I so look forward to each thread titled "why can't niggers fly?" or "GOVRNMENT COVER UP OF ALIEAN LANDING AT ROSWELL, GA!!@" which may look like human feces distilled into a readable format, but are actually test cases for freedom of expression and objective scientific inquiry proposed by very, very brave men.

[ivan astikov]

I wouldn't necessarily call it a grudge, although the language is a bit strong.

Through several threads on the dope, Ivan made it pretty clear that he had been a criminal in his past and not only didn't have any sympathy for his victims, but blamed them for being (insert desired word here) enough to be victimized by him and other criminals. That the only reason he stopped being a criminal was that he was stupid enough to victimize a bigger criminal, someone in a position to make him go away permanently.

For my part, I simply make a note of that kind of thinking and consider that person to be without honor, integrity, Humanity or intelligence - not someone I desire to know or allow close to me - and move on.

But it also makes it very clear that his comments and arguments on such issues are entirely without merit.

How about jumping in the thread with something you can speak authoritatively about - ie. not my personal life and motivations - instead of spouting forth from your arse about that of which you actually know fuck all of, other than what I have shared and you have either misinterpreted or barefacedly misrepresented?

When come back with further attempted character assassination, bring facts, or shut the fuck up.

[What Exit?]

None of that changes the fact that there is nothing sacred about 9/11 that precludes speculation, no matter how ridiculous that speculation may be.

But when the speculation is spectacularly stupid I think we all reserve the right to laugh at those proposing it.

[Exy]

But when the speculation is spectacularly stupid I think we all reserve the right to laugh at those proposing it.

Right, but this thread was about people using shrieking outrage as a substitute for argument.

[Diana]

Exactly. I fully endorse laughing at and refuting his speculation. I'm just not having any of that "pissing on graves" crap. I also think that "your opinions of ANYTHING are unworthy of consideration based on what I know of your personal life" is neither a giggle nor a refutation, and certainly not exactly the "gotcha" that some people seem to think it is.

[Clayton_e]

I don't think that it fits into "sacred" territory where nothing can be debated on it. Debate is good. It hashes out the crap and gets beyond "official histories" when they exist for reasons that the officials need.

But to debate, as Cervaise mentioned, like a greased pig rather than a human being willing to stand in one spot, take a position, and debate until consensus is made on a point then move onto another topic is childish.

I've had debates on many issues IRL informally (not on a stage, just two people talking) and I can quickly tell if its worth it to continue after two seconds.. Don't feed the trolls. If you can talk to a person and they stay on topic and don't use tactics like slipping around on their stance then they're not worth talking to.


Anyone that suggests that a missile hit the Pentagon or the WTC was destroyed by explosives or any of that crap is a friggin' idiot. Sadly I can't find a single effin' one of them that could debate their beliefs like an adult.. When I do I'd love to talk.. Until then I must remind them that posting to message boards from the Middle School Library's computers when not on study hall time is strictly forbidden.

[ivan astikov]

So, now we've added 'childish', 'greasy pig', 'troll' and 'friggin' idiot' to the list... a slight disappointment after Baldwin's initial 'worthless cunt' salvo!

Anyone that suggests that a missile hit the Pentagon or the WTC was destroyed by explosives or any of that crap is a friggin' idiot.

And anyone coming out with bollocks like the above, when I've never said such things, is an even bigger one. ( Unless "any of that crap" includes all objections to the Official Account. Seems a bit of a catch-all kinda description, don't ya think?)

I can see why you didn't take up debating more seriously. The actual fact is, I am the only one sticking to one stance in that thread, and everyone else is doing linguistic gymnastics to avoid addressing it.

[Clayton_e]

As has been mentioned by many others, you bring up a stance and just put it out there to see if it gets any bites. You know, devil's advocate for the crazy side. You're not crazy, you're just thinking about what the crazies say.. And you're not sure if you believe in it or not.. But you'd like to put it out there. Because you me and the next guy in the thread weren't there anything we bring up is just someone else's opinion.. As the official record may be wrong, according to you, maybe those other people who's opinions support that report are wrong too... Or maybe (whispers) they're part of the conspiracy!

Quotes of yours that make you look like a tin foil hat wearer and not someone willing to accept fact, see "weasel words":

he doesn't look like an actor

(referring to a WTC witness)

maybe just maybe a large group of other survivors will "make up" similar accounts. That
would be like the ultimate happenstance, but that is may aim.

From the Wiki Article of William Rodriguez you mention as big bold number 8:

Subsequently, Rodriguez traveled around talking about conspiracy theories, his experiences on 9/11, Motivational lectures and Disaster Management.

Making up something won't help sell tickets to the tin heads or nothin', right?

And from the same big ol' #8 wiki article:

# Its tone or style may not be appropriate for Wikipedia. Tagged since December 2008.
# It may be confusing or unclear for some readers. Tagged since January 2009.
# It may need to be wikified to meet Wikipedia's quality standards.Tagged since January 2009.
# It may require general cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. Tagged since January 2009

It was written by Middle School students, apparently.

and from you:

i know this may be boring you, but this guy has real emotions and you should have respect for that. he describes how
william rodriguez saved him on 9/11... telling interview.

So... We should believe, what now because someone is emotional about the tragedy? I still don't know what your point was, you don't exactly choose one, just quote things.

I can see why you didn't take up debating more seriously. The actual fact is, I am the only one sticking to one stance in that thread, and everyone else is doing linguistic gymnastics to avoid addressing it.

'


Ok. I'll feed ya. You point out, with your style of Big Ol' Numbers point after point of exactly what you believe. Don't be vague, if you think there was a bomb in the basement say so. If you think Cheney himself pushed a button say so. Just point out EXACTLY what you believe AND WHY and we'll all play along.

[ivan astikov]

After pointing out your mistakenly attributed quotes in your previous post, I'd have thought you'd be more careful not to repeat it in the following one! (Here's a clue: I am not bookbuster)

When you've got the hang of responding to the right poster, get back to me!

But do it in the right thread too; this one is for Cervaise to rip me a new asshole... when he turns up.

[Clayton_e]

Ah crap. I look dumb in two threads at once.

I misread the usernames, honestly, through both threads got you two confused.

on edit, now I see why, the relabeling I think it was, then me just reading down.. then hitting quote.. f'ck..

To you, yeah, sorry. That was completely meant to the other poster.

When I'm back online I'll read further into your points and see if they're in a direction that's in a direction I would like to debate. If not, sorry, I'm a complete ass on that post above.

[ivan astikov]

No probs, Clayton_e. You made up for it with your link in the "volcano thread".