Ask the Transsexual(s)

[Nrblex]

I'd done a thread like this back before this become Mellophant and I thought I'd start a new one for the Ask the Expert forum. I know I'm not the only trans* person on the board, though, so I figured I'd keep the focus on this one less on me and more in general.

There's a lot of ignorance out there and I'll take any chance I can to dispell it. Also, hopefully this can be a bit of a resource sharing/support center for those of us on the board who are trans*.

So hit me, baby. I'm up for questions.

[Nrblex]

A little bit of background and etiquette to start things off. I'll point out that the part about what questions not to ask obviously doesn't entirely apply to this thread, though I might be miffed about getting asked this stuff in an unrelated place and I get to decide what's TMI for me. Others might feel differently.

Trans Respect/Etiquette/Support 101
by Micah Bazant (updated from from TimTum: A Trans Jew Zine)
Copyright Micah Bazant, 2006

Please use widely
Add and subtract from this document as needed
Please acknowledge this source
Please send suggestions, feedback, etc to info at timtum dot org

I am using the word "Trans" in the broadest sense, to include labels like genderqueer, transgender and transsexual. This was originally written from my own experience as a white Transperson/FTM who is perceived as both female and male. Of course, every Trans person is different, and would write this list differently. Also, some things, which are totally inappropriate with strangers or acquaintances, may be fine or welcomed in the context of a trusting relationship. I'm sad to say that I've done most of the things on this list at some point in my life, and had most of them done to me even by other Trans people. As with other forms of oppression, they are socialised into us from birth. We are all taught to be Transphobic, and unlearning it is a process and a responsibility.

Pronouns & Self-Identification
Respect everyone's self-identification. Call everyone by their preferred name/s and pronoun/s. Use language and behaviour that is appropriate to their gender self-identification. Do this for everyone, all the time, no matter how much you think they deviate from what a "real man" or "real woman" should be. What we truly know ourselves to be should be the only determinant of our gender in society. Set aside your doubts, start educating yourself and respect that we are who we say we are. By doing this you are saying: "I see you, I support you, I respect you." By not doing this, you let Trans people know: "I don't understand you and I'm not trying to. What you tell me about yourself is not important, all that's important is how I think of you. I am not your ally. You are not safe with me." Being referred to or treated as the wrong gender feels painful and disrespectful to us. It's hard and dangerous to change your name and pronoun. Know that it has taken a lot of courage for this person to let you know who they really are; they are sharing something very precious. It may seem hard or silly to you at first, but it can be a matter of life and death for us.

If you don't know what pronouns or gender-labels someone prefers (and there's no mutual friend around to clue you in), just ask them. Politely. And respectfully. For example: "What pronoun do you prefer?" or "How do you like to be referred to, in terms of gender?" Usually when people can't immediately determine someone's gender, they become afraid and hostile. If you misrecognise someone's gender, it's okay, don't freak out. Apologise once and get it right the next time. Misidentifying or being unable to classify someone's gender does not have to be an awkward or shameful experience. By asking someone in the right way, you can indirectly communicate: "I want to be respectful of you and I don't want to make any assumptions. I see your gender ambiguity and/or fluid gender expression as a positive, fabulous, creative and honest (need I go on?) thing."

Some Transpeople are bravely making more space for gender diversity by using language creatively. Respect these efforts and don't dismiss them as silly, funny, weird or too difficult. (Remember Mahatma Ghandi's words: "First they ignored us, then they laughed at us, then they tried to fight us, then we won.") For example, some people prefer to be referred to as "they", or as both "he" and "she" interchangeably. Some people prefer to be referred to only by their name. Some people use non-binary pronouns like "ze" and "hir".

Invasive Questions
Medical Information
You do NOT have the right to know any medical or anatomical information about anyone else's body, unless they decide to share it with you. This means: don't ask about their genitals, their surgeries, the effects of their hormones, etc. This is private! The first question usually asked to Transpeople is, "Do you have a penis?" or "Do you have a vagina?" Would you ask a non-Trans person about their genitals? To do so is incredibly invasive and disrespectful. It reduces us to one body part, as if all the rest of our minds, hearts, bodies, contributions and personalities are not important. Our bodies are not a community forum, or a tool to educate you!

Also, don't ask us about our surgeries, medications, etc. If we want you to know about something, we'll bring it up. For example, just because your friend-of-a-friend-of-a-Transperson told you that someone is having surgery, doesn't mean you have a right to come up and ask them about it (especially in front of other people).

Don't ask us if we've had a sex change operation. Gender transition doesn't happen through one magic operation. And the operation you're thinking of probably involves transforming our genitals, which, again, is reductive and disrespectful. Some of us never want to have any surgeries. Some of us desperately want surgery and can't afford it or don't have access to it. For a lot of female-to-male Transpeople the surgeries they would want don't exist. Even if you're curious, don't interrogate us. It's not our job to educate you and we may not feel like answering your incredibly personal questions right now. Unless we bring it up, don't ask us how our gender is affecting our personal relationships. For example, if you just met me, don't ask me how my family is taking it.

If you want to find out more about trans bodies or our families, educate yourself through books, websites, films, etc.

"Outing"
Trans people have a huge range of ways that we navigate the world, based on preference and necessity. Transphobia functions very differently than homophobia; being "out" is not necessarily desirable or possible for us. Being a trans ally means supporting people in being more safe and healthy - which may mean anything between letting everyone they meet know they are Trans, to keeping their gender history entirely confidential. Its crucial to support people in being as "out", or not, as they need to be. There are many situations in which being "out" could have serious negative repercussions; Transpeople are killed every year just because other people find out they are Trans. Revealing someone's Trans status could cost them a job, a relationship, or their physical safety. Many Transpeople are perceived 100% of the time as their preferred gender, and no one would ever suspect they had been through a gender transition at some point. Some of these folks prefer never to be "out" as trans and, in fact, may not even consider themselves "Trans." This is a completely valid choice among the huge spectrum of gender diversity. If you know someone whose Trans experience is completely private, respect them by honouring that privacy.

Some of us are most comfortable being "out" as Trans all the time; some of us may never reveal our Trans status to anyone. Do not assume that just because you know us in one way, that we are able to, or choose to, live that way in every other part of our lives. Some of us express our gender in different ways in different parts of our lives. For example, we may not be able to find work as the gender we truly are. Or we may only find peace by living some of the time in a more masculine gender and some of the time as more feminine. For myself, even though I hate being called "she", if someone refers to me that way, I might or might not correct them depending on many variables: whether I'm going to have to see them again, how confident I feel, who I'm with, how much backup I have, etc.

Think about when and why you "out" someone as trans. Are you talking about your "Trans friend" just to prove how open and hip you are? Is it necessary to out this person, or are you doing it for your own personal reasons?

Names
Names are very powerful things. For a lot of Trans people, the names given to us by our parents represent a gender identity which was wrong, humiliating and forced. Changing our names carries a lot more weight than it does for non-Trans people. Don't ask someone what their old name was. And don't ask if our current names are our "given names", or worse yet, "real names." If someone wants you to know, they will tell you. If you know someone's old name, don't share it with other people.

Some transpeople go by multiple names, because they are in transition, or because they prefer it that way. Again, don't trip about it. Just ask them what they prefer to be called and then call them that, every time. It may seem strange to you, but it's completely normal for us. Also, don't make comments about the gender associations of Trans people's names. This is especially annoying in a cross-cultural context. A name that means (or sounds like) "Badass warrior king" in one language, might mean (or sound like) "Nellie flower picker" in another. Don't assume that you know what meanings or gender implications our names have.

Transition
Don't assume that our gender transitions are linear, one-way, or start or end at a fixed point. For example, some intersex people* (who aren't "born male" or "born female") have Trans experiences, and may also identify as Trans. Some Transpeople, for example, may express themselves as masculine, feminine and then back to masculine. In an ideal world this would be no different than having long hair, then short hair, then long again. There are infinite ways to transition. Things like binding, packing, tucking, electrolysis, hormones, surgery, or changing our name, legal "sex" and pronoun, are some of the possible steps of a gender transition. Trans people have the right to make all, some or none of these changes, and in any order.

Do not ask us if we are sure, or remind us that our transition is irreversible and that we mayregret our changes. Do not tell us we are coming out as Trans just to be "trendy". We have usually been thinking about and dealing with our gender issues for a long time, although we may not have shared our years of internal torment with you. We are aware of, and probably very excited about, the consequences of our decisions.

Do not tell us how you liked us (or certain things about us) better before we transitioned. There is a normal and healthy grieving process that people go through around any major change, including gender changes by people in our lives. It's important to acknowledge and deal with your feelings, but not with us. We are going through enough stress, and we really just need your support.

Do not tell us how hard this is for you or how uncomfortable we make you. However challenging it may feel to you, it's much harder to live as a Transperson. Many many people become amazing Trans allies and effortlessly call all their Trans friends by the right names and pronouns. You can too, it's really not that hard - it's just a different way of thinking about gender. If you are uncomfortable with someone's gender, find ways to work on it yourself or with other, knowledgeable non-trans friends.

Passing** and being passed

Don't judge our ability to be seen as male or female. For example, don't say: "Maybe if you did______, or didn't do _______, you'd pass better, and we would be able to accept your gender better." Also, it is not always appropriate to compliment people on how well they pass. Whether or not we are passed as the gender we prefer is often a matter of money and genetics, not desire or determination. We are not all seeking to pass in the same ways, for the same reasons, or at all! These comments are divisive to Trans communities. They reinforce straight, binary gender standards by labeling certain traits (and people) as "good" and "real".

Fetishisation/Tokenisation
Yes, it's true, Trans people are all incredibly sexy in our own unique individual ways, but don't fetishise and tokenise us. Don't tell us how you love FtMs [female to male] because we were socialized female and therefore we aren't like "real men." While this may be true for some individuals, FtMs are just as diverse as any other group. Many Transmen identify as "real men" who are just as (or more) masculine than people assigned "male" at birth. Don't tell us how MtFs [male to female] are the ideal sex partners because they are "chicks with dicks." Don't expect any one of us to speak for all Trans people. Don't assume that you know about Trans issues because you once knew a Trans person. If we are offended by something you do, listen, apologise and reflect - don't excuse your bad behaviour by saying that your other Trans friend didn't mind. Don't showcase us as tokens of diversity in your social circle or annual report, without being a real friend or truly integrating Transpeople into your organisation.

Transphobia + sexism + racism + classism = a big slimy mess
It is a stereotype that all Trans people are sexist: that all MtFs are still "really men" and still have male privilege, and that all FtMs are becoming men because of their internalised sexism. Trans people can be sexist towards ourselves and others, but we are not any more or less sexist than non-Trans people. It is not inherently sexist to be Trans. Similarly and unfortunately, Trans communities are just as racist, classist, etc. as the rest of the world, but not more so. And these dynamics play out in particular ways among Transpeople. Just like some people will tell you all gay people are white, some people believe that all Trans people are white, and that being Trans is just a privilege of white people. Of course it is easier to be Trans (or anything actually) if you are white and have money, but most gender-variant and Trans people are working-class and poor people of colour, because most people in the world are poor and working-class people of colour. Being Trans is not inherently racist or classist.

Age
Don't be surprised if you or others radically misread a Trans person's age. It may be amazing to you, but we are used to it, and probably over it. A lot of Trans people on the FTM spectrum look much younger than they are, especially if they are not on hormones, are on a low dose of hormones, or are just starting hormones. Because of this, we may experience some of the lovely effects of adultism, such as not being taken seriously, getting carded all the time, and being condescended to. A lot of people on the MTF spectrum look older than they are, and experience the delightful effects of sexism, like being treated as less important because they aren't seen as young and pretty.

Fascinating Trans films/politics/TV shows/etc., etc.
It is really important for people to educate themselves about different experiences of oppression, however, someone who has had to deal with that oppression all the time may not want to hear about it, or process how hard it was for you, as someone not directly affected by it. For example, when the film "Boys Don't Cry" came out, many many people every day took it upon themselves to try and discuss it with me, ask me if I've seen it, explain how tragic it was and how hard it was for them to watch as a non-Trans person. We have to deal with Transphobia all the time and so we don't always want to talk about it. Check yourself before you bring up the ten latest, most horrifying Transphobic things you heard yesterday - your Trans friend may actually not want to re-experience them with you. If you want to discuss a movie, book, current event or experience that relates to Trans issues, bring it up with another non-Trans person. If a Trans person wants to discuss it with you, they'll bring it up.

"Extra letter" Syndrome
Gay and lesbian organisations all over the country have added a token "T" to their names, without doing anything to include Trans people or issues in their organisations. Although queer issues and Trans s are interlinked (don't forget who rioted at Stonewall), they are very different. For example, access to transition-related medical care (such as hormones and surgery), and issues of legal identification (such as changing our names and "sex") are huge struggles faced by Transpeople, but are non-issues for gay and lesbian people. As mentioned above, being "out," which is desirable in many GLQ spaces (especially white, middle-class ones), is not a goal of many Transpeople. The world of issues around sexual orientation is fundamentally different than the world of gender, so don't assume you are serving us at all by just adding a "T" on the end of your acronym. Recognise your own gender uniqueness and how Transphobia affects you, but don't speak for Trans people. Also recognise that within Trans communities, not only is each individual's experience different, but each group of individuals' experience is different from other groups. Just as you probably wouldn't or shouldn't) ask a gay man to explain lesbian issues, you shouldn't lump all Trans people together, because we all have unique experiences and perspectives. For example, African-American transsexual issues are different from disabled genderqueer issues, which are different from drag king issues, and so on. Also, most indigenous cultures have non-binary gender systems, and many of us identify with our ethnically-specific gender identities (such as two-spirit, hijra, timtum, fa'afafine, etc.) that may overlap with, but are distinct from being "trans."

GOOD THINGS!
There are so many positive things you can do to be ally to Trans people, even if you do not have that much experience with Trans communities. Start with being honest about how much you know, or don't know. It is refreshingly wonderful to hear someone say: "Actually, I don't know anything about Trans people. I want to support you and respect you, so please forgive my ignorance. I'm going to start educating myself." Almost all of us started out ignorant of Trans issues - even Trans people! The important thing is o pro-actively learn more once you become aware.

Educate yourself and take action!
* Look at books, websites, films.
* Talk to other non-trans people who know more than you do.
* Start an unlearning transphobia group with other non-trans friends.
* Help write a non-discrimination policy for your school or workplace that protects gender identity and expression.
* Pay some trans folks to do an educational presentation for your group or organization.
* Especially if you work in a school, faith-based organisation, governmental agency, or a social justice, social services or healthcare organisation, try to integrate Trans-inclusive policies and services.
* Work to create bathrooms that are accessible for all genders (for example, single-stall gender-neutral bathrooms)
* Think critically about your own gender and your participation in the binary gender system.
* Reflect on how you can be a better ally to trans people.

Once you have educated yourself, educate other non-Trans people about gender issues. This is so needed and appreciated!! There have been so many times when people said offensive things to me when I wished I had a non-Trans ally to refer them to. Trans people shouldn't have to do all the work. Besides, even though there are way more of us than you think, there aren't enough of us to educate all the hordes and hordes of non-Trans people in the world. Also, it's a lot harder for us to do this work, because we are more vulnerable. Helping someone unlearn Transphobia usually involves hearing and sorting through a lot of hurtful crud while people sort out their feelings about gender.

Interrupt Transphobic behavior. This is also usually easier for a non-Trans person to do, because they are not making themselves as personally vulnerable or a target for retaliation. For example, correcting other people when they refer to someone by the wrong pronoun is very important. When introducing people, it is good etiquette to clue them in beforehand about the language preferred by any Trans people who are present. By this I don't mean outing any Trans people who would prefer not to be out, but letting people know how to refer to anyone who might not "pass." Simply saying things like, "I'm a lady, he's a guy," or "that's none of your business," or "actually, his voice/body/manner is just great the way it is, and I don't want to hear another comment about it," can save the day.

Above all, talk to your trans friends, listen and educate yourself. If you are not sure how to best support someone, ask them. If you are not ready to support someone in the way that they need, don't pretend that you are, just figure out what you need to do to get there.

Starting to be an ally doesn't require you to be an expert, just be honest with yourself and take some risks.

Remember: gender is a universe and we are all stars. Transphobia limits and oppresses all of us. By becoming an ally, you'll not only have the satisfaction of doing the right thing, you'll get to experience your true starry brilliance.

* For more information about intersex issues, visit http://www.isna.org/ , the website of The Intersex Society of North America.

** In this context, "passing" refers to trans people being perceived as non-trans members of their correct gender category. While this is a goal for most trans people, I think its important to stay aware of the systemic power imbalance that is implicit in this term. I prefer the term "being passed," because it emphasises the fact that Trans people do not have total control over how we are perceived, and that the power in the equation of passing lies completely with the non-Trans person who "passes" us. It is something done to us, not something we are able to control.

[Sarahfeena]

Your second post there addresses a lot of my curiousities! But I have a couple questions. First, how old do you think most people are when they sort of come to the realization that they are trans? And what is the relationship like between the various groups represented under the umbrella of "GLBT?"

[Nrblex]

Your second post there addresses a lot of my curiousities! But I have a couple questions. First, how old do you think most people are when they sort of come to the realization that they are trans?

That one is going to differ person to person. I actually think the "generic trans narrative" is one of the most damaging things out there for us. There's this idea that we knew from the moment we were born and we can never have done anything that might have been associated with our birth-assigned gender. Any transsexual who admits to not knowing s/he was trans until later in life or admits to having enjoyed aspects of his/her birth-assigned gender might be viewed as suspect by therapists, outsiders, and the trannier-than-thous.

Inside of a trans oriented community, you see how many people there are who were in denial well into adulthood. Maybe they felt something was "wrong" or that they were "different" but let's be frank here: lots of young people feel that way.

Myself, I was identifying as masculine in my play from as far back as I can remember, but I didn't identify as male until much later on because it simply was beyond the scope of my imagination that it was possible. Add into this that I sometimes enjoyed feminine things and being able to attract sexual attention when I presented as female and I just didn't "fit" the narrative. Maybe I knew on some level, but I couldn't face it, because it was a long and unpleasant road ahead of me if I did.

My guess would be that most transsexuals recognize that their birth-assigned gender doesn't fit around puberty. That's right around the point when your body gets up, slaps you in the face, and starts mocking you.

And what is the relationship like between the various groups represented under the umbrella of "GLBT?"

It's kind of like this: GLbt

[Taumpy]

First, how old do you think most people are when they sort of come to the realization that they are trans?

Nrblex covered this pretty well, so I will just speak for own experience. I was really young, about 4 or 5 when I started to realize something was wrong with me, in that I wanted to be a boy and couldn't fathom growing up to become a woman. I think I figured somehow I'd grow out of this "girl" person I was supposed to be. By the time I got to puberty, though, I'd buried all that and done my best to forget about it, because "transsexual" was a concept I had no idea about. Honestly, the idea of FTMs even existing was something I wasn't even aware of until my 20s. And even then I spent years going back and forth about whether it was me. Denial is power stuff. From what I can tell, my experience isn't really that out of the ordinary.

And what is the relationship like between the various groups represented under the umbrella of "GLBT?"

It varies wildly. Unfortunately the "T" is often silent, and the amount of ignorance about trans issues and blatant transphobia in the overall gay community is frankly appalling.

[Zuul]

Yeah, I don't think your experience is at all out of the ordinary, Taumpy.

I'd brought my own questions and uncertainties about my gender identity up way, way back in the early days of Domebo. One of my earliest memories is of being about three years old and sticking the garden hose down my shorts so I could pretend to pee like my dad. Later on when I was around twelve I started having nightmares about these hideous growths (breasts) growing on my body and other, far more pleasant dreams that I'm sure any man whose gone through puberty could relate to. Not having any idea about the possibilities of trans identities, I interpreted it as "I'm a lesbian" and I spent many nights praying (despite basically being an atheist even then) that I be "normal." Later on I realized I was attracted to men and I felt like that was the end of the questioning. But, it wasn't.

It's something I still question to this day and struggle with, literally, on a daily basis. There are many things I enjoy about being feminine and I hate the idea of hurting my family. So I go back and forth on it in a lot of ways. I suppose in a way I'm still back there as a twelve year old, praying to be "normal."

[Sarahfeena]

It's rather fascinating that we have at least 4 people that I know of on this (rather tiny) message board who identify as trans. Isn't that unusual, even for an online community? Or is it just that I'm not aware of trans folks IRL?

[Zuul]

It's rather fascinating that we have at least 4 people that I know of on this (rather tiny) message board who identify as trans. Isn't that unusual, even for an online community? Or is it just that I'm not aware of trans folks IRL?

It's pretty freakish, actually. I have no idea how it happened.

[Zuul]

Well, I'll amend that. Rabbit came to the board because I invited him, but we didn't know each other from anything having to do with gender identity.

[RabbitMage]

It's true. I was suckered in, er, 'invited' to the board. But not because of anything gendery. It just kind of happened. I actually think it's interesting how Zuul and I kind of gravitated to each other, and started figuring things out at the same time.

To answer a few questions from my own perspective, I was 'lucky' in that I led a fairly gender neutral childhood. Aside from a few grandmother-provided dresses, I got to wear t-shirts and jeans and tennis shoes and play with whatever toys I wanted-I had a lot of GI Joes and Ninja Turtles in my day. Even as a younger kid, four or five, I remember always wanting to play male characters when we did things like playing house, always gravitating to male characters in stories and on TV. When I was around 8 I started realizing hey, I like boys. I also realized I had a sense of envy about them. I wanted to be with them, but I also wanted to be one of them. My big moment of realization came when I was 16 or 17, but it took another seven years to work through layers of denial. I've just 'come out' this year and I'm working on getting the transition process started. I'm going in Tuesday to get some pre-hormone bloodwork done.

Sarah, my experience with the GLBT community has been varied. I've encountered (mostly online) a lot of GLB people who range from ignorant to outright insulting. Locally, I've had much better luck. Our local Gay Man's Choir includes at least one trans guy, the local bear bar lets our club host fundraisers there, and we had a large number of people I recognize from the gay community attend our TDOR event. And of course, there is some kind of crossover. Not many of the transfolk I chat with are entirely straight, myself included. So far I haven't felt unwelcome anywhere, but I'm also really really early in my transition.

[RabbitMage]

double post lol

[OtakuLoki]

I've heard something of the controversy about the attempt some in the trans community are making to extend the term "cis-" or "cis-gender" to people who aren't trans in their gender identity. Do you think that the term is a good idea or necessary? (I happen to like it - especially as a way to avoid the use of "normal" in discussing gender identity issues, but if you hit me with a geeky pun I'll usually like it no matter how good an idea it might be otherwise.)

[RabbitMage]

Cisgender is a pretty standard word in my group, and I do like it because it prevents that whole othering thing, like you mentioned. Is it ever going to catch on outside the trans community? I don't know. Maybe give it another few generations.

[Hatshepsut]

The discussion of pronouns and the way people may be uncertain whether to use "he" or "she" reminded me of the androgynous Saturday Night Live character Pat. I believe Pat skits were on SNL circa 1990-91. The joke was that no one around Pat could figure out whether Pat was a he or a she, and regardless of what extravagant lengths they went to in order to ascertain the answer, they never could. I guess there was also a movie called "It's Pat!" but I never saw it.

Were any of you coming to terms with your trans identity when Pat was a popular SNL character? If so, did you have any particular opinion about Pat - were the skits offensive, funny, or simply irrelevant to your lives?

[Zuul]

I've heard something of the controversy about the attempt some in the trans community are making to extend the term "cis-" or "cis-gender" to people who aren't trans in their gender identity. Do you think that the term is a good idea or necessary? (I happen to like it - especially as a way to avoid the use of "normal" in discussing gender identity issues, but if you hit me with a geeky pun I'll usually like it no matter how good an idea it might be otherwise.)

I've heard some cis people complain about the term, but it's pretty standard when discussing trans issues. I think it needs to stick around specifically for that, but I'd be mighty annoyed if it started being used on a daily basis when trans issues aren't the center of discussion. Then it would simply become a code word for "real". If I'm discussing men or women in general and it isn't about trans issues, then cis has no reason to show up.

The discussion of pronouns and the way people may be uncertain whether to use "he" or "she" reminded me of the androgynous Saturday Night Live character Pat. I believe Pat skits were on SNL circa 1990-91. The joke was that no one around Pat could figure out whether Pat was a he or a she, and regardless of what extravagant lengths they went to in order to ascertain the answer, they never could. I guess there was also a movie called "It's Pat!" but I never saw it.

Were any of you coming to terms with your trans identity when Pat was a popular SNL character? If so, did you have any particular opinion about Pat - were the skits offensive, funny, or simply irrelevant to your lives?

I was a kid at the time. It may have worked into my subconscious and general fascination with androgyny, but it didn't really make me identify with it whatsoever. I found it stupid and not funny, but I think that was because it was. The only thing that really stands out to me about that skit was that I saw one which made references to The Crying Game and I was driven to find that movie and watch it because I grasped it had something to do with some sort of transgender person.

[Nrblex]

The discussion of pronouns and the way people may be uncertain whether to use "he" or "she" reminded me of the androgynous Saturday Night Live character Pat. I believe Pat skits were on SNL circa 1990-91. The joke was that no one around Pat could figure out whether Pat was a he or a she, and regardless of what extravagant lengths they went to in order to ascertain the answer, they never could. I guess there was also a movie called "It's Pat!" but I never saw it.

Were any of you coming to terms with your trans identity when Pat was a popular SNL character? If so, did you have any particular opinion about Pat - were the skits offensive, funny, or simply irrelevant to your lives?

I think the skits are pretty offensive, though I was too young to get much out of them when they first came out. There were some attempts to justify it, saying that the comedy was with the silly reactions of others to not knowing zir gender, but those were simply justifications. It's clear the "comedy" is supposed to be Pat's "weirdness" itself:

[parzival]

Do you feel there's that much of a difference between bio males and bio females, in terms of social issues or the perception of gender dysphoria?

Also, what's your opinion on transvestites who do it mostly for entertainment (or even sexual pleasure)? Do you think it's more tokenizing/fetishization of your experience, or just a completely separate group that doesn't bother you?

[Taumpy]

Do you feel there's that much of a difference between bio males and bio females, in terms of social issues or the perception of gender dysphoria?

I don't believe there is much difference between FTMs and MTFs in terms of how strongly they perceive their own dysphoria. That tends to vary more among the two groups than between them. As for social issues, I'm not sure what you mean. People often say that FTMs "pass" easier, but again it really varies a lot. So overall I don't think that the experience is that much different, aside from the obvious having different end goals in mind.

Also, what's your opinion on transvestites who do it mostly for entertainment (or even sexual pleasure)? Do you think it's more tokenizing/fetishization of your experience, or just a completely separate group that doesn't bother you?

Well, their existence doesn't bother me. I'm a little torn on the issue of transvestites and crossdressers being lumped under the transgender umbrella, because a lot of people are unaware of the differences. And especially for MTFs, sometimes they aren't taken seriously because they're thought of as just men in drag, and that isn't a good thing. In the end, I think education and raising the general population's awareness these issues will go a long way.

[RabbitMage]

Do you feel there's that much of a difference between bio males and bio females, in terms of social issues or the perception of gender dysphoria?

Also, what's your opinion on transvestites who do it mostly for entertainment (or even sexual pleasure)? Do you think it's more tokenizing/fetishization of your experience, or just a completely separate group that doesn't bother you?

If I'm interpreting the first question right...maybe. I think this is the proper place for a long commentary about male privilege and societal standards of what is attractive and what is normal, but that's regrettably not my area of expertise.

I'm a-ok with transvestites and crossdressers. The local group I'm with is welcoming of anyone who's "gender diverse" and we have a few people who crossdress and even one drag queen. I think the concerns Taumpy brings up are valid, though. Most people don't know the difference between someone who's transsexual vs. someone who does drag or vs. someone who's intersexed (which is another group sometimes claimed under the trans umbrella).

More concerning as far as fetishization are the "tranny chasers", the people who seek out relations with transsexual people (usually transwomen) for no other reason than their trans-ness. If you happen to be attracted to trans people, that's okay. I find myself draw to other transmen. But for that to the full focus of a relationship or sexual encounter is creepy.

[RabbitMage]

As long as I'm typing, thought I'd post this here:

I just had my first shot of testosterone today. 10mg of testosterone cyprionate (I think?) suspended in nice, thick cottonseed oil. My dosage is 1cc every two weeks. The needle? Huge. 1.5 inches, 18 gauge. This: http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/Cliented/i...s/needkes3.jpg appears to be actual size (the top one). The things I do for manhood, eh?

It didn't hurt too bad beyond the initial poke, which also wasn't too bad. Because of the thickness of the oil the injection is slow-I was babying it, so it took about 30 seconds. It was a weird feeling, but not too bad. My leg's been a little achey off and on since this morning when I did it, but nothing bad.

Also please note I'm under medical supervision and had a doctor guide me through the process. I don't recommend anyone to get grey- or black-market hormones, or do this without the help of a medical professional because you can mess stuff up pretty badly.

If I wake up tomorrow covered in bulging muscles and chest hair, I'll be sure to let you all know.

[Zuul]

I hope you don't. Chest hair should not cover you, unless perhaps you are buried under chests.

(And congrats!)

[Hatshepsut]

That's great. If you feel like sharing it will be interesting to hear what differences you notice as a result.

[RabbitMage]

I'm planning on doing a video blog kind of thing, so if you can tolerate my ugly mug I'll post links here. And of course make notes.

Zuul, my entire body is nothing more than a series of chests.

[jali]

NrblexThanks for doing this.
The second post answered quite a bit for me.

RabbitMage:
Congratulations on this big step today.

I think a video blog is a great idea and I look forward to seeing the transition from a series of chests to a bigger series of chests (smile). the main thing is that I look forward to seeing you happy. (happier)

[Nrblex]

Well thank you for reading, jali. I started this all because I wanted to educate people.

Do you feel there's that much of a difference between bio males and bio females, in terms of social issues or the perception of gender dysphoria?

Do you mean Male-Assigned-At-Birth people versus Female-Assigned-At-Birth people? I think there are some differences because of social expectations, our culture, and the limitations of our bodies. For instance, a MAAB person may be given a harder time from some quarters due to violating the "sanctity" of manhood. Many people don't see male-to-female transsexuals as women, but as men making a mockery of maleness. The fact that testosterone causes very dramatic and obvious changes to a person--bone structure of the face, hair growth, etc--makes passing before hormones a bit more difficult for some trans women. Even after hormones, some may still be "read" as being trans instead of simply accepted as another woman. This puts them in constant danger because of the misogyny mentioned above.

Conversely, a FAAB person is more likely to have been the victim of sexism while growing up. Someone who is perceived as female before transition is more likely to have been sexually abused, raped, harassed, violently assaulted, etc, than someone who is MAAB. Transitioning doesn't always end this, because a short, slender man whose body language may come across as somewhat effeminate due to early life conditioning is the kind of guy who runs a good risk of being gay bashed. Or simply viewed as "a twerp." It seems to be socially acceptable to mock a short man who isn't deemed physically manly enough, as though that's something he has control over.

Because of their cultural background, each group has their own crosses to bear. Strip away that cultural background and I think we have very similar paths to travel, though.

Also, what's your opinion on transvestites who do it mostly for entertainment (or even sexual pleasure)? Do you think it's more tokenizing/fetishization of your experience, or just a completely separate group that doesn't bother you?

The whole drag queen/king thing doesn't bug me. Some people start on that path saying that they're doing it for entertainment and only later realize that it was fulfilling some deep-seated need within them. (I had this experience in that I was eagerly taking on male roles in theatre before I was out to myself and fantasized about being a drag king.) Some people just enjoy the roleplaying. That's what they enjoy, so more power to them.

Those who dress for sexual pleasure don't typically bug me either. Does a cis woman feel sexy when she puts on a bunch of fancy, girly underwear? Probably. How you dress and how you look can have a huge impact on how you feel about yourself. Lots of people get off on wearing particular clothes. If that involves dressing as a particular gender role, cool.

I think the term RabbitMage mentioned--gender varient--is more useful than trans in a lot of cases. Trans confuses people because they're not sure what the difference is between someone who is transsexual, transvestite, or transgendered. I've seen newspaper articles get the terms trans man and trans woman exactly ass backwards. But are transvestites part of the transgender experience? Yep, I think so.

[RabbitMage]

Here's a general tip. If you know a transperson and they're in a bad mood, it is NOT recommended to ask "So what, is this the hormones?"

Also it is a bad idea to tell a transguy he's being bitchy, and I'd assume it's also a bad move to tell a transwoman she's being a dick.

Just FYI.

[OtakuLoki]

Here's a general tip. If you know a transperson and they're in a bad mood, it is NOT recommended to ask "So what, is this the hormones?"

Also it is a bad idea to tell a transguy he's being bitchy, and I'd assume it's also a bad move to tell a transwoman she's being a dick.

Just FYI.

Seriously, is it ever a good idea to suggest to anyone that the reason they're upset is "just hormones" be they auto-released, or injected? People do get cranky, after all, dammit.

[Zuul]

Here's a general tip. If you know a transperson and they're in a bad mood, it is NOT recommended to ask "So what, is this the hormones?"

Also it is a bad idea to tell a transguy he's being bitchy, and I'd assume it's also a bad move to tell a transwoman she's being a dick.

Just FYI.

Aw geez.

Seriously, is it ever a good idea to suggest to anyone that the reason they're upset is "just hormones" be they auto-released, or injected? People do get cranky, after all, dammit.

No, it really isn't, but people can be remarkably clueless sometimes. I've also heard people dismiss someone's deep, psychological pain because they're clinically depressed, so it's just "brain chemicals."

[Duck Quack's Echo]

My question is a bit convoluted and I don't want to step on any toes here so I apologise in advance if I don't make myself understood. This is also a topic completely foreign to me and I am very unfamiliar with the language, please forgive.

I think I understand incorrect gender assignment and internally identifying as the opposite gender to the biological assignment. Is, though, the gender you find yourself sexually attracted to intrinsically a big part of deciding on reassignment procedures? To clarify, if you are born female, have misgivings about your gender identity from an early age and at eighteen or thereabouts find yourself turned on by other females but not by males, would this be a factor in considering reassignment to male? Or can you be born female and be sexually attracted to males but still consider reassignment?

[RabbitMage]

It shouldn't be, but in some cases it is. Most places in the world follow a similar guideline for treating transsexuals-this includes determining who is a candidate for sex reassignment surgery. 'Back in the day'-and even in modern places, sometimes-one of the standards you had to adhere to was heterosexuality. Meaning if you were born male but identified as female, you had to be attracted to men. 'Normal' women like men, so you had to in order to be a candidate for SRS.

Other outdated standards included being born male (FtMs didn't exist, apparently) and being considered attractive enough to pass as female.

In MOST places these days, your sexual orientation holds no bearing on your ability to get SRS. On a personal level, I could see how it might affect someone's choices, but I've never known anyone who decided for or against having SRS because of their orientation. More important factors are usually access to funds, access to a good surgeon, funds, a good support network, funds, personal level of dysphoria, and did I mention funds?

[Taumpy]

Yeah, it's important to remember that sexual orientation and gender identity are completely separate issues. Although as I understand it, quite a few MTF women who are attracted to women try very hard to live as heterosexual men before accepting who they are. That makes sense to men, to want to try to keep male and straight privilege.

Oh the flip side of that coin, for many years one of the reasons I didn't want to transition was that some FTMs find their sexual orientation shift after starting hormones, and I was really afraid of that happening. (internalized homophobia? just really liking women? probably some of both.) I haven't started hormones yet, so who knows what'll happen but I've just decided that being seen as male is more important than my sexual orientation being whatever it will be.

[Nrblex]

Yeah, it's important to remember that sexual orientation and gender identity are completely separate issues. Although as I understand it, quite a few MTF women who are attracted to women try very hard to live as heterosexual men before accepting who they are. That makes sense to men, to want to try to keep male and straight privilege.

Oh the flip side of that coin, for many years one of the reasons I didn't want to transition was that some FTMs find their sexual orientation shift after starting hormones, and I was really afraid of that happening. (internalized homophobia? just really liking women? probably some of both.) I haven't started hormones yet, so who knows what'll happen but I've just decided that being seen as male is more important than my sexual orientation being whatever it will be.

This is a common situation--though in my case, as soon as I started accepting that I was trans, I found my attraction to women largely dying. So I think it may have more to do with psychology than hormones. I don't think your concerns about it are internalized homophobia or anything. Just you have a sense of yourself and it's weird to fuck with that, you know?

[RabbitMage]

Poor neglected thread. No one asked, but I figured I'd update a little.

As of today, I've been on testosterone for 3 months. After the first couple of injections I switched from the 18g needle down to a 22g needle which makes the injections much more bearable. Seriously, 18's are huge and hurt like a mother. Do not use.

Changes I've noticed:
Muscle development
Hair-head hair is thinning out/shifting back ever so slightly, facial and body hair is darker/more plentiful
Male enhancement
Increased sex drive
Lowering of voice

The voice is the only thing I've been measuring (I swear!). I've been reading a poem every two weeks to see my progress. I figure after about a year I'm going to splice together the recordings so I can feel awesome.
For the curious though, here's my pre-T (okay, technically one week) recording: http://tindeck.com/listen/qzuj
And my 12 week (today) recording: http://tindeck.com/listen/zwgs

It isn't a huge change, but there is one. Talking even feels different, and it's neat. I'm starting to get sir'd in public sometimes, and I'm going by my male name at school and no one seems to care.

[Myrnalene]

I don't have anything to add really, just want to say good for you, Rabbit. :smile:

[redtail]

Wow! That sounded like a huge difference to me, for only 3 months. I keep getting mind-pictures of a long-term time-lapse video project.

I've seen other discussions about the hormones making a huge but not really measurable internal difference ("things finally just felt right" type of comments). If you don't mind the question, have you noticed that sort of effect?

[Hatshepsut]

Wow, that was very cool - thanks for sharing. I think it's a very noticeable change.

Good for you and continued good luck with the process.

[jali]

This is great to know. I'm glad you posted and that you are well.

[RabbitMage]

I've seen other discussions about the hormones making a huge but not really measurable internal difference ("things finally just felt right" type of comments). If you don't mind the question, have you noticed that sort of effect?

Thanks for the well-wishes, 'phants! To answer redtail's question, I have. Now if it's a true affect of the hormones or simply a placebo I really couldn't tell you. But since I started I have an odd sense of...normalcy, maybe? Before it was almost like I was fighting a losing battle with myself, but now I feel like we're getting closer to some kind of harmony. On the measurable side, every little change I notice makes me giddy as a schoolgirl (note: testosterone may make one appear more male, but it does not make you manly). When I got my first honest to god chest hair I told everyone I knew. Zuul named him Charlie. I just realized driving home from lunch that my hands are starting to look a little more wiry-women's hands are typically smooth and soft on the back, but men's tend to look a little more rough and veiny. It's the little things.

I thought I'd also update with an issue-I've been doing my own injections since I started T in December. I have to jam that long-ass needle into my thigh every other week. Especially with the smaller needle it really doesn't hurt, but the psychological aspect of I AM JAMMING A GIANT NEEDLE INTO MY LEG hasn't gotten any easier. I keep putting off my shots for a day or two and it throws my hormones out of whack just enough that I can feel a difference.

Luckily I have a good friend who's working on her externship in either medical assisting or phlebotomy, and she has graciously agreed to stab me in the ass twice a month.

[redtail]

When I got my first honest to god chest hair I told everyone I knew. Zuul named him Charlie.

I've threatened to name my SO's chest hairs, all three of them. And he doesn't have your excuse!

Congrats on your progress and I hope all continues well for you.

The willingness of the various transgender folk on the several boards to discuss all this stuff has really helped me wrap my brain around concepts and issues that I just didn't get before. Thanks!

[Nrblex]

I'm glad to know it's been helpful, redtail. That's what I was hoping for.