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Thread: Who Will Watch the Guardians?

  1. #1
    Curmudgeon OtakuLoki's avatar
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    Default Who Will Watch the Guardians?

    This is coming out of chat this afternoon.

    Myrna was bringing up police brutality blogs, and then linked this video. Warning: The video is shocking and disturbing and shows at least one murder. It is rightfully disturbing and almost an hour long. In short it highlights several cases of police brutality and misconduct which were caught on video.

    For me this issue hits close to home. A local town's police department is in the middle of a massive melt-down because the thin blue line got stretched too far and snapped, and now all sorts of details are coming out of misconduct within the police department. So far two officers have been put into jail, and charges are pending on the former police chief and several others.

    The linked stories show some of the history of this mess, but for those who don't care to read them - this really all seemed to start last year when an off-duty Greece police officer (Nicholas Joseph) was involved in a read-ending accident which sent a pregnant woman into premature labor. Somehow the officer disappeared from the scene of the accident, and only turned up eight hours later for a breathalyzer and drug screening. Forensic analysis of the car found traces of cocaine on the driver's wheel, and there was some reason to believe he'd been drinking as well. A public hue and cry to determine how this guy got the ten miles from the scene of the accident to his house was raised, and the police chief promised a thorough investigation. Which nonetheless went nowhere.

    However, the circumstantial evidence against Joseph was sufficient to get an indictment. While this was happening, however, a local woman made a complaint against another Greece PD officer, accusing him of trying to force her to have sex, or he'd run her in for parole violations. Shortly after being indicted for those charges, several other women came forward with other stories. Then the fat hit the fire when it was found that the same officer had been 'released' from the local city's PD for sexual misconduct, I believe it was.

    The police chief decided he had to make a show of investigating things, and so called for a special investigation team from the State Police. Unfortunately for him, it seems he got more of an investigation than he'd expected when he asked for it - and he was found the day before the investigators were due to show up shredding documents relating to the Joseph case.

    Since then at least two other officers have been charged.

    It's a mess, and I can only regret that it's taking so long to come out.


    But it illustrates, I think, the difficulties in policing any police department. There are many reasons why police officers would want to close ranks and protect their own. The video linked in the beginning of this post shows several examples of just how egregious cops may get protecting each other from the consequences of their actions. And little by little, without people curbing such behavior, the normal favors between co-workers start to encompass turning a blind eye to actual infractions. A feeling of being above the law grows, and you end up with people trying to intimidate anyone who is even trying to ask about the procedure for filing a complaint about a police officer's behavior.

    What I'd like to know would be what reforms do you think might be best suited towards providing the mechanisms to make sure that the police operate within the law, and don't simply become another gang that believes they control the law.



    My suggestions:

    Pass laws requiring complaint forms to be freely available - and not something only handed out by the police chief. If at all. I can understand the reasons for wanting an interview with the complainant before the investigation goes any further. But without that paper record of a complaint being lodged, it just seems too simple to obviate the whole process with simple intimidation tactics.

    End the requirement to carry papers with you at all times. Wait? What's that? "The US doesn't require papers? That's just something those evil Soviets did?" That may have been true in the past, but in this post-9/11 age, if you don't provide ID to any law enforcement officer upon request you may be arrested. At the time that those provisions were passed I opposed them, and after seeing that video, confirming just how chilling it can be, I am even more opposed to them.

    Finally while officers acting in good faith do deserve the same theoretical benefit of the doubt that a criminal might face in court, that doesn't mean that grand juries, police boards, or other bodies entrusted with the duty of regulating the police should forget that no one is above the law. All too often such boards hear only one side of the story, and refuse any contrarian evidence. This has to change. The best way I can think of that happening is to make sure that a citizens, not police, form the majority of voting members on any investigative board. Don't exclude police from such boards, but don't leave them as the sole arbiters, either.

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    I'm not going to watch that video because I have a strong suspicion it would bum me out. And I know that people are probably going to jump all up in my shit for saying this (and that's okay, do what you have to do) but frankly, while all my own experiences with cops (being pulled over for this and that) have actually been fine -- never even had a speeding ticket! -- the weight of all the years of news stories I've read in which police departments conspire to cover up misdeeds of their fellows have led me to basically believe that there's a significant, higher than the general population chance that a cop is basically just a criminal thug with a badge.

    I know they're not all like that. But in all honesty, I think that some of the same personality traits that lead to someone being a criminal can lead them to decide to be a cop instead.

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    Curmudgeon OtakuLoki's avatar
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    Exy, I'm not going to jump on you for that conclusion - I hope we're both wrong for having that suspicion, but there are enough of these sorts of stories that happen every year, every month, that it's not unreasonable to suppose that what we hear about is just the tip of the iceberg. We may be wrong - but we are not, I believe, considering an insupportable conclusion.

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    MOON GIRL FIGHTS CRIME Myrnalene's avatar
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    I agree that there should be a standard, accessible way for complaints against the police department to be lodged. Despite all the horrors in the first part of the video, the part that really twisted my stomach was the lengthy segment that showed former police officers going with hidden cameras going into various stations and asking what the procedure is to fill out a complaint. They were stonewalled, harrassed, told to leave, treated with contempt and arrested. Even the more helpful officers said that the complainant needed to make the complaint right there, in the open surrounded by other officers. After the complainant was meant to give their name and show ID, of course. I decided after watching the video that if I ever witness an incident of police misconduct, I am going right to the media. I'm put off trying to report it through the police department.

    BTW, here is a link to a blog that shows the source material for the various clips in the video:

    http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...ndId=456210497
    Last edited by Myrnalene; 17 Oct 2009 at 08:07 PM.

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    Curmudgeon OtakuLoki's avatar
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    I did a little checking locally for the complaint procedure for the Rochester PD - here's the web page where it is described.

    The only way I'd go through that is if I had a lawyer with me, and made it clear we were recording the session.

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    Yes, I'm a cat. What's it to you? Muffin's avatar
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    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
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    What Myrn said about taking any serious complaint and accompanying evidence to the media first, is good advice.

    I'd be wary of dealing with any police complaints department, without having a representative who wouldn't be intimidated by the procedure with me.

    I totally agreed with this quote made by the blogger Myrn linked to.
    All police, like all individuals in the military and members of congress each need to make a conscious decision “Am I an agent of the State or of the People?” “Do I defend the life and liberty of my fellow American or the expansion of authoritarianism?” You can’t have it both ways. I hope for the day when riot cops again encircle us and at least a single officer breaks ranks to join his fellow Americans in the exercise of freedom. An unlikely scenario, I know, but perhaps some of them will realize that a paycheck is a lot easier to replace than honor.
    Seems highly unlikely though, with the indoctrination you probably have to go through to be able to don riot gear.
    Last edited by ivan astikov; 18 Oct 2009 at 04:00 AM.
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

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    Wanna cuddle? RabbitMage's avatar
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    I hate to be one of those 'eff the police' people. I try not to be. I have never personally had a negative encounter with a police officer. Never personally witnessed an act of police brutality. I've never been anything but polite to officers when I've encountered them. If I ever needed help, I would not hesitate to dial 9-1-1 because I believe in most cases, their assistance would make the situation better, not worse. At least I want to believe these things.

    But I don't know.

    I managed to watch about the first half of that video a while back and was shaking with anger through it. I couldn't shake that feeling for about a week solid. Every time I hear about the possibility of police brutality or misconduct, I immediately assume the cop is guilty of wrongdoing, even if my mind only jumps there for a moment. I have no idea what would make for a workable solution, but I quietly hope I'm never, ever in a situation where I need to call the police.

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    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by OtakuLoki View post
    Finally while officers acting in good faith do deserve the same theoretical benefit of the doubt that a criminal might face in court, that doesn't mean that grand juries, police boards, or other bodies entrusted with the duty of regulating the police should forget that no one is above the law. All too often such boards hear only one side of the story, and refuse any contrarian evidence. This has to change.
    If complaints and accusations against the police were given half as much consideration and credence as the accusations given by criminals about other criminals, and those from anonymous snitches, that would be a start.
    Last edited by ivan astikov; 18 Oct 2009 at 07:20 AM.
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

  10. #10
    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Many lawyers will tell you not to talk to the police. Not to "not talk to the police without a lawyer", but flat out not talk to them. Anything you say can and will be used against you. Nothing you say can be used for you. Nothing. That's not the police officer's personal bias against you. That's actually the way the law is set up. If you say something in your favor, it will be dismissed as biased. Only things that can be used against you are admissible. Your lawyer should do the talking for you, or tell you specifically which questions you can answer.

  11. #11
    Yes, I'm a cat. What's it to you? Muffin's avatar
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    Who Will Watch the Guardians? How about SDMB mods?

  12. #12
    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
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    That Muffin is funnier than a clown spontaneously combusting in a barber's chair.
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

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