The ivan astikov show

Look, I'm not really sorry if I've offended some of you guise, because it's your prerogative to be offended, but as a person who doesn't define himself by his sexuality, and whose only stereotype to overcome, is that of an ex-criminal, you all come across as a little sexually-obsessed, to my eyes.

With regards to SSM, I'd have more respect for you if you boycotted that whole institution and still insisted on having the same rights as those who have a piece of paper to confirm their commitment to one another.

Moderator note: The first seven posts were removed from this thread. If you guys really want to encourage ivan's schtick, have at. - Zuul

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

you all come across as a little sexually-obsessed, to my eyes.

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It's already been pointed out to you that the topic of this thread is conformity to gender normative behavior, not sexuality. You come across as blowing hot air about something you know fuck-all about.

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With regards to SSM, I'd have more respect for you if you boycotted that whole institution and still insisted on having the same rights as those who have a piece of paper to confirm their commitment to one another.

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:roll: Yeah, that piece of paper is worthless. Please tell that to these guys. I wonder how they'd respond to that. (btw, SSM is completely outside the scope of this thread topic.)

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

Look, I'm not really sorry if I've offended some of you guise, because it's your prerogative to be offended, but as a person who doesn't define himself by his sexuality, and whose only stereotype to overcome, is that of an ex-criminal, you all come across as a little sexually-obsessed, to my eyes.

With regards to SSM, I'd have more respect for you if you boycotted that whole institution and still insisted on having the same rights as those who have a piece of paper to confirm their commitment to one another.

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Telling someone it's their prerogative to be offended is kind of like saying it's your prerogative to feel pain if I punch you upside your head. Dismissal of something is, AGAIN, denigration.

And you talk like your respect is worth getting.

Mods, is it possible to move his post and the replies to the Thunderdome. I need to get me my wire mesh earrings and I'll be right over.

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Originally posted by Taumpy

It's already been pointed out to you that the topic of this thread is conformity to gender normative behavior, not sexuality. You come across as blowing hot air about something you know fuck-all about.

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Open a Thunderdome thread elaborating on your opinions, and I'll tell you what I think you come across like.

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Originally posted by Taumpy

:roll: Yeah, that piece of paper is worthless. Please tell that to these guys. I wonder how they'd respond to that. (btw, SSM is completely outside the scope of this thread topic.)

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Yes, imho, it is worthless and is only necessary if you want your union sanctioned by the state and any perks or rights that go with it. Protip: I wasn't the first to mention SSM. :roll:

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Originally posted by Panther Squad

Telling someone it's their prerogative to be offended is kind of like saying it's your prerogative to feel pain if I punch you upside your head. Dismissal of something is, AGAIN, denigration.

And you talk like your respect is worth getting.

Mods, is it possible to move his post and the replies to the Thunderdome. I need to get me my wire mesh earrings and I'll be right over.

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See you there, tough guy.

ps. You are asking why groups break into smaller groups and marginalise some sections, as though it is some great mystery, when all it is, is human nature. When you've idealised that by whatever means, your problems will be solved.

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Originally posted by Panther Squad

Telling someone it's their prerogative to be offended is kind of like saying it's your prerogative to feel pain if I punch you upside your head.

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Actually, unless you knock me out with your first shot, it's my prerogative to strike back.

Hey guise, I won't let you down for giving me this big opportunity.

If this isn't the most viewed and responded to thread on the whole programme after a year, I'll walk away from here shamefaced. :)

Come on, try and keep things interesting, and I'll do my bit.

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

Open a Thunderdome thread elaborating on your opinions, and I'll tell you what I think you come across like.

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We're here now. Please enlighten me.

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Yes, imho, it is worthless and is only necessary if you want your union sanctioned by the state and any perks or rights that go with it.

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Translation: I have no point. I've always assumed that you were coming into threads being intentionally obtuse, ivan, but I may have misjudged you. Because what you've just said is "I would have respect for gays if they boycotted an institution that's necessary for them to enter in order to get equal rights, oh btw, that institution is worthless unless you want equal rights".

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Protip: I wasn't the first to mention SSM. :roll:

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Touche. Of course, one of those mentions was in response to your stupid hypothetical about "hetero pride parades".

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Originally posted by Taumpy

We're here now. Please enlighten me.

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Basically, you give supercilious, know-it all pricks a bad name.

Next question?

Tom, stop giving me a bad name.

See, his inconsideration knows no bounds! He'll even drag down a fellow Mellohead.

ivan, shut the fuck up.

First of all, as has been pointed out to you several times, the OP of The Crucible thread was about a very specific topic that none of your posts had anything to do with. Just because it contained the word "gay" does not mean that it's the place for Random and Offensive Gay-Related Thoughts That Flit Through Ivan's Brain. If you can't contribute thoughtfully and articulately to a discussion, that your opinion is not fucking wanted. Zuul is not going to put up with that shit.

Secondly, let me level with you. You're a straight person. I'm a straight person. Neither of us really have to worry about discrimination, or hate crimes, or marriage rights, do we? It's all academic to us. Therefore it would be pretty fucking gross for us to come into a thread full of LGBT people and start lecturing them about shit that actually affects their lives on a fundamental level every single day. So DON'T.

You want to have an actual discussion? Then shut up and listen to what these good people are saying, because they know a lot more about this stuff than you. You just want to shout your ill-informed jabber into the air and ignore every good faith response you get? Then fuck off. There's no shortage of loudmouthed straight / cis people everywhere on the internet and real life. I don't want to see that crap on Mello.

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

Basically, you give supercilious, know-it all pricks a bad name.

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Yeah, it's tough knowing things. :( Way better to stumble into all your discussions with half baked ideas and hypotheticals. I wish I was good at that.

rock on ivan. all the trannies on this board are a bunch of victimized whiners

yeah so, tranny is a slur and you're not cute, jsyk

trannie trannie trannie

Moderator note: Twenty-four hour caging for hatesfreedom. I would prefer not to see that slur again.

Myrn, dial it down a notch or two; you're coming across like a screeching banshee - it's not a very good look for you.

Tom, you might know things, but you don't seem to know when to shut the fuck up and bow out gracefully, do you?

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

Myrn, dial it down a notch or two; you're coming across like a screeching banshee - it's not a very good look for you.

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I think she wears that look rather well. :)

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Tom, you might know things, but you don't seem to know when to shut the fuck up and bow out gracefully, do you?

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Well, I'm not a fighter, ivan, so I'm not well versed in the etiquette of these situations. Of course, if I take my cues from you we might be in this thread a long while.

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

You don't seem to know when to shut the fuck up and bow out gracefully, do you?

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Do you have any sense of irony of self-awareness, or did you just type this with a straight face?

ivan, do you want to have a meaningful exchange of ideas with the other posters on this board, or not?

Zuul, you seem to be using your mod powers for personal reasons. Is that a healthy position to be taking? Or is "tranny" really too subversive for The Thunderdome? This seems a very lame use of The Cage from where I'm sat.

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Originally posted by Myrnalene

Do you have any sense of irony of self-awareness, or did you just type this with a straight face?

ivan, do you want to have a meaningful exchange of ideas with the other posters on this board, or not?

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"Irony and Self-Awareness"? I could write a thin book on it.

Do I want to have a meaningful exchange of ideas with the other posters on this board?

Some of them. Some I couldn't give a runny shit for.

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

Some of them.

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Well, I don't want to play the No One Likes You Game, especially since we just played it a couple of weeks ago with another asshole. But do you think you are ingratiating yourself to anyone on this board by acting like you are?

Here we go with the personality contests again. Get some fucking perspective, woman.

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Originally posted by I am a troll

WOOSH, What Exit?

Google search: "ivan astikov" +jews

Search results: About 2,140 results (0.30 seconds)

Shall I post the greatest hits?

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I've just tried that and got 375 views. You just don't know how not to exaggerate, do you?

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

I've just tried that and got 375 views. You just don't know how not to exaggerate, do you?

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ivan, I didn't run the numbers, but come on. Even if it's 375, the content of those posts really says it all.

This isn't about personality contests, ivan. I know it's hard for you to keep your eye on the ball, so to speak, so I'll go slowly.

I asked if you want to have a meaningful exchange of ideas with anyone here. Cause it doesn't seem like you do. It seems like you want to spooge all over the place, and we're not interested in that, ok? So if that's what you want, kindly keep moving down the line.

If it isn't what you what, you need to stop acting so defensive and listen. You didn't get this response because I am a banshee or Tom is a supercilious, know-it all prick ( :roll: ) or because Zuul is a transnazi. You're getting it because you said some stupid shit. Now, your choices are either to listen and to try and make an effort to understand what people are saying to you, and to try and participate a little bit in a good faith exchange with the very awesome posters here. Or, you can keep shouting jibberish while we all give each other that "someone farted" look until Zuul bans you. It's on you, man.

Personally, I don't give a fuck what happens either way. But maybe you do.

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Originally posted by Sarahfeena

ivan, I didn't run the numbers, but come on. Even if it's 375, the content of those posts really says it all.

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First up, they aren't all related to me dissing jews. Secondly, I'll defend any of those comments one by one, if you want to bring them forward.

I'll start off with these 5.

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Originally posted by I am a troll

1. Q. How do you separate Jews and Money?
A. With a crowbar.

2. I think Sevastopol has caused far less conflict for this planet than Judaism, so I'm sticking up for him. Yes, as you might have guessed, I don't buy this "Chosen Ones" bollox either!

3. Here's an idea - stop shouting "I'M A JEW!" everywhere you fucking go.

4. Most of the planet's 6 billion population who are not one of the 20 million jews, are sick of hearing about your Jehovah-loving bollocks... well, I am anyway.

5. If you are going to pick on Teh Jooz, there are far more recent crimes to accuse them of, if the history of their most representative organisation is anything to go by*.
* Mossad, in case you are wondering. And if I die in an accident, it wasn't really one, I've just pissed off the wrong jew.

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1. This was a joke in GD, and in the context of reading the previous post, I thought it was rather funny, and hardly controversial.

2. I believe this completely. Sevastopol has caused less world conflict than the jews as a group. Nothing controversial there, either.

3. This is a bit objectionable, and of course, everyone should be allowed freedom of religious expression, but at the same time, don't expect not to be ridiculed for it, if it appears ridiculous.

4. I believe if you did a worldwide poll, my opinion would be borne out here.

5. Absolute fact. Mossad are one of, if not THE dodgiest groups of human beings on this planet. Sorry Mossad, but your record speaks for itself, and if we had access to your real records, you'd be up in an international court for crimes against humanity. Well, the Palestian and Arab members, at least.

If you've got any more, bring 'em on.

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Originally posted by Myrnalene

This isn't about personality contests, ivan. I know it's hard for you to keep your eye on the ball, so to speak, so I'll go slowly.

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See this? It might make you feel better to try and paint me as some kind of gibbering moron, but I'll match your wit and wisdom any day of the week.

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Originally posted by Myrnalene

I asked if you want to have a meaningful exchange of ideas with anyone here. Cause it doesn't seem like you do. It seems like you want to spooge all over the place, and we're not interested in that, ok? So if that's what you want, kindly keep moving down the line.

If it isn't what you what, you need to stop acting so defensive and listen. You didn't get this response because I am a banshee or Tom is a supercilious, know-it all prick ( :roll: ) or because Zuul is a transnazi. You're getting it because you said some stupid shit. Now, your choices are either to listen and to try and make an effort to understand what people are saying to you, and to try and participate a little bit in a good faith exchange with the very awesome posters here. Or, you can keep shouting jibberish while we all give each other that "someone farted" look until Zuul bans you. It's on you, man.

Personally, I don't give a fuck what happens either way. But maybe you do.

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Who the fuck do you think you are?

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

It might make you feel better to try and paint me as some kind of gibbering moron, but I'll match your wit and wisdom any day of the week.

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You are a gibbering moron, and no you can't.

This is a troll. If you post here, you are a retard.

Welcome to the club, retard.




( If you can't win with banter, call them a troll. The last recourse of the shitbag poster who can't stand differing opinions and modes of expression.)

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

See this? It might make you feel better to try and paint me as some kind of gibbering moron, but I'll match your wit and wisdom any day of the week.



Who the fuck do you think you are?

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i don't know how myrna feels, but this is definitely making me feel better!

Yayyyy! It's "The ivan and Panther" show...

So, how do you wanna go about this? I can't really do much with the above post. I was kinda expecting something more meaty to get my teeth into.


ps. How's it feel to be in Myrn's new Retard Club right at the beginning? Don't you think this could be the start of something big?

damnit I meant to poast this is a troll THREAD and reference that one time when we had that funny thread and i made a movie about it

Unbunch your knickers, Ms. It's affecting your poasting.

ps. Ner ner, u r a retard.

Oh, Ivan!

I'm mostly here to observe. Did you not get that I was baiting you to get you removed to the thunderdome to remove you from a conversation I actually cared about? I'll leave you to it.

kisses!

Well, there are lots of other subjects I'm interested in, so we may cross paths again. I'll stay out of the threads you start tho', just for the sake of peace on the board.

Good. Because despite what you may have been told in grammar school, no one wants to hear your bullshit opinion about something you have proven you don't understand and have no desire to understand.

Fair enough. I'll be looking out for your bullshit opinions in future and you can expect no mercy. ;)

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

Fair enough. I'll be looking out for your bullshit opinions in future and you can expect no mercy. ;)

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Generally if I enter a serious discussion thread and present a position, I try and have sound reasoning behind it. Things I can back up with actual experience and facts and so forth.

Did they not teach you how to do research and critical thinking in school, Ivan? :sad: That's so sad. It puts you at such a disadvantage.

Critical thinking, I learned myself. Research wasn't high on the school curriculum back in the days before computers tho'.


Yep, thinking about it, I don't recall being asked to research anything beyond the contents of the work we were given in a particular class. Why would we need to? The teachers knew everything.

My thread is losing impetus and has been overtaken in popularity by a mere wannabe. I and my legions of fans will not allow this to go unpunished when my plans for world domination are fulfilled.

Be warned, you worthless scum and detritus of a thousand whore's shared bath.

Myrna, you go your way, I'll go mine. I'm no more interested in your opinions than you are mine. And I certainly don't need your tips on reflection, you arrogant cow.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x...3221660871.jpg

Okay, Peace Lemur. I'll ease off the vitriol.

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Originally posted by Myrnalene

ivan, do you want to have a meaningful exchange of ideas with the other posters on this board, or not?

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Asked and answered to the negative.

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

Critical thinking, I learned myself.

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It shows.

You know (well, you don't know), Ivan, critical thinking refers to analysis, not bitching. Try it some day.

No. If you was paying attention and not wandering off on your little mental tangents, you'd have noticed that I said there were some posters on this board who I don't care less if I never see on here again, hint, hint, they are in this thread right now. Kinda like the way you probably feel about me.

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

If you was . . .

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That self-taught business again?

Muffin, would you mind not prevaricating and just say what you have to say?

Go on, get it all off your chest and let the world know how much I bug you. It'll do you good, I swear.

Hi-de-hi, campers! Hope everything is tickety-boo in your bit of the world?

Anyhoo, on with the show...

Muffin just came up with an interesting little word-combo in his last enlightening post.

"critical thinking requires analysis"

Would melloheads tend to agree that real analysis can only come about by taking on board all possibly relevant information, and not by conveniently ignoring those bits which make them uncomfortable?

FSM's, IPU's and chocolate teapots orbiting far-off planets, are never potential sources of explanations for real-life events and are one of, if not THE most juvenile attempts at ridiculing a poster's position ever put forward on teh intrawebs.

Using ridiculous imaginary constructs to try and dismiss an opponent's position is the sign of a weak and lazy mind.

Discuss.

Surely you can't be born anything, other than as a human being? No child chooses the religion it grows into, and placing your own religious beliefs onto its burgeoning personality, could be deemed slightly immoral, especially in the case of children born into radical fundamentalist families or backgrounds.

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

Surely you can't be born anything, other than as a human being? No child chooses the religion it grows into, and placing your own religious beliefs onto its burgeoning personality, could be deemed slightly immoral, especially in the case of children born into radical fundamentalist families or backgrounds.

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Moderator note: This is the sort of obnoxious semantical nitpicking I'd expect on the Dope. We all know exactly what it means to be "born" into a particular religion. Let's not use this nitpicking in the Crucible.

I thought it might have been stating the obvious, but I never dreamed it might be interpreted as "obnoxious semantical nitpicking"! Ffs, I've just been banned from the Dope for not fitting in; do you really think "obnoxious semantical nitpicking" is part of my act, Zuul, or are you just being hyper-sensitive and looking for a reason to jump on me?

Rather than derail Sarah's thread, I've moved this little discussion over here.

I really don't care if everybody at the Dope hates you or if they crowned you king. The Crucible is for debate and discussion, not quibbling over colloquial word usage that all native English-speakers understand.

It's not nitpicking to point out that a baby doesn't have the belief system to be religious in any meaningful sense, and is essentially only wearing a label put upon it by its parents, until it is old enough or independent enough to make decisions for itself.

If you disagree, I'd be interested to hear why.

ivan, it doesn't even matter if you think it's nitpicking or not. It has nothing to do with the subject of the thread, whatsoever. If you'd like to start a thread on whether or not people are "born" into religions, or whether or not it's ethical to raise children in a particular religion, or whatever your point is here, please feel free to start one.

I have the weirdest sense of deja vu right now.

Hmmm...I know. Shall we just cut to the insults?

it's important we make sure everybody agrees in a thread ivan, otherwise it might be an amusing discussion.

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

It's not nitpicking to point out that a baby doesn't have the belief system to be religious in any meaningful sense, and is essentially only wearing a label put upon it by its parents, until it is old enough or independent enough to make decisions for itself.

If you disagree, I'd be interested to hear why.

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Ivan look I am not against you, but it was not really in the tone of the thread and it was nitpicky. We all know we don't come out of the womb Christian or Jew or Scientologist and being born to a religion is a pretty clear allusion to be raised in a religion from birth. Hell that thread was overwhelmingly people not actually friendly to organized religion. You were potentially starting a side argument in a thread that was doing well. It was a derailing post. Some Liberal has perfected. Thus the short leash. Actually adding here seems like the best idea. Now your post can be discussed without harming the general idea of the original thread.

And then penis might ensue, the gates of Mell open, and the ghosts of trolls past come teeming forth to make a mockery of our fair queendom.

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Originally posted by What Exit?

Ivan look I am not against you, but it was not really in the tone of the thread and it was nitpicky. We all know we don't come out of the womb Christian or Jew or Scientologist and being born to a religion is a pretty clear allusion to be raised in a religion from birth. Hell that thread was overwhelmingly people not actually friendly to organized religion. You were potentially starting a side argument in a thread that was doing well. It was a derailing post. Some Liberal has perfected. Thus the short leash. Actually adding here seems like the best idea. Now your post can be discussed without harming the general idea of the original thread.

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You're an okay guy, Jim - I'll listen to you. Plus, you don't address me like I'm a mental defective who has no concept of reasoning.

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Originally posted by hatesfreedom

it's important we make sure everybody agrees in a thread ivan, otherwise it might be an amusing discussion.

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Fuckem Hall... have you heard of that place, hatesy? You might want to take that pretty lady from the coffee-shop there against her will, one evening. I'll see if I can find that link for bookings. Apparently, they have an impressive mini-bar in their rooms, so make sure you use somebody else's credit card.

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

You're an okay guy, Jim - I'll listen to you. Plus, you don't address me like I'm a mental defective who has no concept of reasoning.

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Don't hesitate to start threads on topics that occur to you when you read other threads.

Don't threadshit or otherwise try to derail interesting discussions with hijacks that don't contribute to the thread topic.

If you are, indeed, not a mental defective, that should be pretty doable. You posted at the SDMB for a long while and God knows those aren't the general practices there, but they are here.

If you want to dispel your doubts about whether I am mentally defective or not, I'll happily take on any "critical thinking" challenge you, or any other poster cares to provide. All you have to do is try and keep it interesting.

My challenge is to think about what you're posting and not post comments like the one Zuul gave you a note above. That would be the relevant proof of your non-defectiveness.

I can do that, as evidenced by the thousands of other posts I've made, which don't get warnings. If you are suggesting there is a pattern to my posting which is designed primarily to piss people off, I think you should present your case more comprehensively.

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Originally posted by Exy

My challenge is to think about what you're posting and not post comments like the one Zuul gave you a note above. That would be the relevant proof of your non-defectiveness.

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Wait, we have a non-defective clause? I thought we just asked posters to mostly play nice with others?

Apparently you can't, as you came back here and have required continual mode intervention since then.

I really don't think you're capable of not doing this, but you're welcome to prove me wrong.

Well, I managed to rack up 20,000+ posts on one forum, and only received a handful of warnings before I got bored with the place, so it's not totally beyond the realms of imagination. I suppose it depends just as much on how keen the modes are, eh?

Hey, Exy! Remember when you was telling me all about how language doesn't evolve?

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"Over many generations, the grammar goes from ad-hoc and inexpressive into a language that’s cleanly structured and expressive," he said.
"But what’s evolving here isn’t the agents" — the speakers — "but the language itself. It has its own evolutionary imperative. It wants to be passed on, and finds ways of doing that. We’re its hosts."

Read More http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...#ixzz0wfaehLy5

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Language is a living organism. And just as any living organism, it experiences evolution. Will we be able to understand the English of the year 3,000? It seems that at least at a basic level, the answer is positive. The words which are used the most in everyday language are the most conservative, as found by two new researches.

A Harvard team investigated the evolution of English verb conjugations over a 1,200-year period while a team at the University of Reading in England looked at cognates (words of common origin, sounding similarly in various languages and having almost the same meaning, like "water" and the German "wasser") to see how all Indo-European tongues evolved from a common ancestor 6,000-10,000 years ago.

Read more http://news.softpedia.com/news/How-D...ve-68867.shtml

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Go and tell those fuckwits to get their facts right. :Shake:

Is there a thread around here you won't contaminate with your aggressive idiocy?

I bet you get hit a lot, in real life.

Very rarely, actually.

And it's not "aggressive idiocy". It's a slight mello-rant which also raises an objection to a belief of Exy's.

Really, Myrn, you shouldn't be so defensive all the time.

Btw, in answer to your question, have you tried The Friday Night Dance thread? That might fit the bill for non-aggressive idiocy.

Yeah, language itself isn't really doing anything. It's an artifact of the speakers using the language who change how it is used. If no humans were involved, the language would sit there in its original form forever.

edit: Exy's point, if I recall the previous thread correctly was that he has a specific definition of what qualifies as evolution and part of that definition is that the subject under discussion must be undergoing either asexual or sexual reproduction, a view shared by many more than just him. And since language does not undergo reproduction, it does not evolve.

Yes, well if Exy was trying to argue that my interpretation of language evolving was wrong because I was suggesting that it evolved via some sexually reproductive stratagem, then it was a bit of a strawman, as I never argued that in the first place.


ps. Are you another who shares this unfounded view of Myrn's that all I post is "aggessive idiocy", by any chance?

ASS-NESS

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

Btw, in answer to your question, have you tried The Friday Night Dance thread? That might fit the bill for non-aggressive idiocy.

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It's true. In pointless post-padding threads you do manage to stay on topic and not be aggressively idiotic. Kudos!

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Originally posted by Taumpy

It's true. In pointless post-padding threads you do manage to stay on topic and not be aggressively idiotic. Kudos!

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Oh wait... http://www.mellophant.com/forums/sho...&postcount=158

:( Almost, ivan. Almost.

TOO "SUBVERSIVE"

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Originally posted by Taumpy

Oh wait... http://www.mellophant.com/forums/sho...&postcount=158

:( Almost, ivan. Almost.

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Like it matters anyway, in a post-padding thread! D'oh!

This is all sorts of tragic levels of unfortunate.

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

Yes, well if Exy was trying to argue that my interpretation of language evolving was wrong because I was suggesting that it evolved via some sexually reproductive stratagem, then it was a bit of a strawman, as I never argued that in the first place.

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No, he was arguing that it's not really appropriate to append the label of evolution to what happens to language because language doesn't fit the usual requirements of evolution. It is not alive, it does not reproduce, it does not undergo natural selection except in a weird way through us.

As for your aggressive idiocy, I liked you better before you got all conspiracy theoristy but I still like you now.

So, how come a lot of other seemingly knowledgeable people don't seem to mind appending the label of evolution to language? Are the writers of those two articles - who both seem to disagree with yours and Exy's view, ie. that it is inappropriate to talk about language in evolutionary terms - talking out of their arses, and if so, why?

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

Hey, Exy! Remember when you was telling me all about how language doesn't evolve?




Go and tell those fuckwits to get their facts right. :Shake:

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Do you remember what we were discussing at all at the time? Because honestly, pretending that this somehow proves me wrong makes you look literally retarded. Like you have absolutely no idea what was being discussed at all.

I know exactly what WE were discussing, and I just don't understand why you won't accept that it's okay to discuss the development of language as being something that has evolved.

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

So, how come a lot of other seemingly knowledgeable people don't seem to mind appending the label of evolution to language? Are the writers of those two articles - who both seem to disagree with yours and Exy's view, ie. that it is inappropriate to talk about language in evolutionary terms - talking out of their arses, and if so, why?

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well, both of those are news articles which are not always top notch when it comes to scientific clarity. Secondly, not everyone in a given field has to agree with everyone else. The difference is that they have data that they feel backs up the conclusions they've drawn. Other linguists will look at that data and critique. Some will perform experiments to further test the hypotheses developed from the research you linked to and it will further our knowledge of the subject. I rather suspect that they're using a looser definition of evolution than we are.

PS. exy, if you feel I've misrepresented you or general linguistic thought on this subject please let me know!

Well, all I've ever claimed is that language has seemed to evolve from primitive grunts and gestures, into all the myriad variations that represent it today, and I've been hectored by Exy as though I was insisting the world was flat.

ivan, if you are using evolve as synonym for the verbal phrase "to change gradually over time" I agree with you. Language has indeed changed gradually over time. If that is how you're using it, then because evolve has a more specific, biological definition, using that word masks your meaning.

We talk about plots in a story-line evolving, cultural evolutions, the evolution of dance, and I'm sure there are others, so what better word could be used in the context of language?

There is a freakin' awesome book called The Unfolding of Language by Guy Deutscher that goes into great detail about how languages develop and change and even has a pretty cool hypothetical section describing just how a language might grow out of really basic concepts.

Oooooh! Read a book? That sounds a bit like hard work. Does it have any pictures?

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Originally posted by inner stickler

well, both of those are news articles which are not always top notch when it comes to scientific clarity. Secondly, not everyone in a given field has to agree with everyone else. The difference is that they have data that they feel backs up the conclusions they've drawn. Other linguists will look at that data and critique. Some will perform experiments to further test the hypotheses developed from the research you linked to and it will further our knowledge of the subject. I rather suspect that they're using a looser definition of evolution than we are.

PS. exy, if you feel I've misrepresented you or general linguistic thought on this subject please let me know!

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But the article doesn't even get at what the claim was all those months ago that started this off. (And yes, those are news articles, not very good ones, and there's nothing to see about the study at PNAS's website so it's hard to evaulate it anyway.) Good research or not, it just doesn't even get at what we were discussing.

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

Well, all I've ever claimed is that language has seemed to evolve from primitive grunts and gestures, into all the myriad variations that represent it today, and I've been hectored by Exy as though I was insisting the world was flat.

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No. That was nothing like what the actual topic that brought this up. That was a discussion as to whether "evolution" is a useful way of understanding why some languages (or some words; the claim was very vague) survive and some don't. The claim was that literal survival of the fittest describes how languages change.

Ivan, I get that you're very poorly educated and more than a little dumb. I believe you when you say this is how you understood the discussion. But that's not what the discussion was about. I tried to explain it to you. Everyone else tried to explain it to you. At a certain point, you might as well admit to yourself that it's over your head. Because as you saw last time and this time, everyone else can tell that even if you won't admit it.

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Originally posted by Exy

But the article doesn't even get at what the claim was all those months ago that started this off. (And yes, those are news articles, not very good ones, and there's nothing to see about the study at PNAS's website so it's hard to evaulate it anyway.) Good research or not, it just doesn't even get at what we were discussing.



No. That was nothing like what the actual topic that brought this up. That was a discussion as to whether "evolution" is a useful way of understanding why some languages (or some words; the claim was very vague) survive and some don't. The claim was that literal survival of the fittest describes how languages change.

Ivan, I get that you're very poorly educated and more than a little dumb. I believe you when you say this is how you understood the discussion. But that's not what the discussion was about. I tried to explain it to you. Everyone else tried to explain it to you. At a certain point, you might as well admit to yourself that it's over your head. Because as you saw last time and this time, everyone else can tell that even if you won't admit it.

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I won't admit it, because it isn't even true. Where you get this bollocks about being poorly educated from, apart from possibly your own arse, I cannot guess! A little dumb? Exy, why are you resorting to lies to try and make your case?

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

I won't admit it, because it isn't even true. Where you get this bollocks about being poorly educated from, apart from possibly your own arse, I cannot guess! A little dumb? Exy, why are you resorting to lies to try and make your case?

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Because you can't understand something as simple as this even when a dozen people have tried to explain it to you, over and over.

It's not my fault you're too dumb to understand fairly simple concepts. And then, moreover, too dumb to even recognize when you don't understand something.

Shall we call it a draw?

Here and here are the threads containing the back story for the "evolution" wank.

He railed against niche languages / dialects, which is an ass move, and tried to argue that languages "evolve" from simple to complex. Link.

But ivan's arguments are so convoluted that it's no surprise that even he can't remember what they are.

Ooh, Myrna, you shit-stirrer! Just as I was offering him an olive branch. I'm disappointed, to say the least.

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

to say the least.

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Please, run with that idea

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

Shall we call it a draw?

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No, you're just wrong. We're arguing matters of fact, and the things you said were incorrect.

I'm "just wrong" about what, exactly? Can't you be more specific than that? Which were the things I said that were incorrect? Try and keep it clear and concise; you know how much trouble I have following the English language.

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

I'm "just wrong" about what, exactly? Can't you be more specific than that? Which were the things I said that were incorrect? Try and keep it clear and concise; you know how much trouble I have following the English language.

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Consult the dozen times I tried to explain it to you in the previous thread. Myrna linked it, you can find it there.

Although you're probably still too stupid to understand it.

Yet here you are, still trying to communicate with me. Is this like your good deed for the day, explaining complex shit to the forum dumbo? What a noble gentleman you are.

I think this is Exy's version of a therapist giving him a foam bat and putting a bobbing inflatable clown punching bag in front of him.

If I keep dragging the argument through the same circles until people get sick of me, and I get the last word by default, then I win!

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

Yet here you are, still trying to communicate with me. Is this like your good deed for the day, explaining complex shit to the forum dumbo? What a noble gentleman you are.

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You are the one that brought this ancient argument up, ivan.

Don't be like that, Taumpy. You wouldn't want me to get all butthurt, would you?

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Originally posted by Myrnalene

You are the one that brought this ancient argument up, ivan.

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I didn't exactly force anyone to take part in it tho', did I? Like tangoing, it takes at least 2 to argue.

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

Don't be like that, Taumpy. You wouldn't want me to get all butthurt, would you?

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and only after a half-dozen posts.

That's improvement, right?

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Originally posted by Panther Squad

I think this is Exy's version of a therapist giving him a foam bat and putting a bobbing inflatable clown punching bag in front of him.

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Yeah, pretty much. :D

This is what it's like waiting for another one of Exy's zingers.

Do me a favour and translate this for me, Exy. I'd love to know what the hairy viking is saying.