Now, don't get me wrong, I'm trying to weed the use of "retarded" out of my vocabulary. But why is it that "crazy" is still ok? I don't think that crazy is an appropriate label for a mentally ill person, so why is it ok to use it as a perjorative towards a non-mentally-ill person?
Because retarded people are nice, they give you hugs and cookies and stuff and so people stand up for them. Crazy on the other hand is usually mean and they give you stab wounds and pamphlets about Jesus so nobody wants to stand up for them.
The truth is that a normal person is perfectly capable of having a "crazy" thought or action, but not really a retarded one.
Well.....
This takes us to the gypped argument doesn't it? Eskimo will be brought up as an example. Calling something gay. Where is the line? I honestly still use retarded. So I must be crazy.
On the other hand I do not use the N-word or say someone "Jewed them down" so I am far from consistent. I found Clerks II having a semi-clueless character trying to take back the term "porch monkey" very funny. He wanted to disassociate from African-Americans. Speaking of which, I still mostly say Black. I don't think was is considered much of a problem though.
No, I honestly don't think the usages are analogous.Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
Gypped = to steal from someone, like a gypsy would. Completely inappropriate to use.
Gay = homosexual (or happy but dude no one uses that meaning anymore). Using gay to mean homosexual is fine. Using gay to mean "bad" or "stupid, is inappropriate because it equates being homosexual with being one of those things.
Retarded = developmentally delayed, low cognitive ability. To put it simply if inelegantly, stupid. So I will continue to use it to describe things that are stupid. Although if anyone asks that I not use it in their presence, I won't.
Crazy = crazy. I do sympathize with the plight of the mentally ill, but I will continue to use crazy to describe crazy people.
But this makes no sense to me, I never encounter Gypsies. The word is disassociated with them in the US. I know a few people that Developmental challenged and people that work with them. The word retarded is more likely to offend someone I know than jip or gyp which only a few people even realize is even associated with the "Gypsies".Quote:
Originally posted by Myrnalene
When considering what words are acceptable and unacceptable in certain situations, ask yourself this question. "Will using this word make me sound like an asshole?" If the answer is yes, and if you care about what people think of you, don't use the word.
"Bob Costas sounds like a crazy person."--You don't sound like an asshole for various reasons. Mostly because he does sound like a crazy person a good percentage of the time.
"Bob Costas sounds retarded."--Funny, but not polite, and certainly not something I'd say in front of mixed company.
"The Winter Olympics are boring and kind of lame."--True facts, and while some might dispute the usage of "lame" I think you'd be fine.
"The Winter Olympics are gay." Congratulations, you're an asshole.
Was "crazy" ever a formal medical term? If it wasn't, it probably wasn't subject to the euphemism treadmill, and thus it remains an acceptable term.
Then again, there's little anti-PC stigma against "cretin", "idiot", "imbecile" and "moron", which were medical terms used to describe the retarded/developmentally delayed/special/trainable/intellectually disabled.
Just because you say it does not make it so. The word "gypped" has no other etymology than "to steal from someone, like a gypsy would". That is where the word came from! There was a big kerfluffle on livejournal a few days ago that reminded me of our discussion here. Someone used the word gypped in a post and was called on it. Discrimination against the Romani is no joke. It's not in the past tense.Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
The argument put forth in the other thread was, "well, if we don't know a word has on offensive meaning, doesn't that make it not offensive any more?" But that's a moot point because you know this word is offensive. As for assuming that no one else will know and therefore won't be offended, two things - first, the internet is an international community, and as I mentioned anti-Romani prejudice is a big deal in other parts of the world. Secondly, a person can hear the word, judge you an asshole for using it (like pepper said above) and not say a thing to you about it, leaving you with the impression that no one cares.
Or watching too much men's figure skating. :sci:Quote:
Originally posted by pepperlandgirl
Implying that all members of ethnic group X are lying cheats is intrinsically different from calling stupid things or people an insensitive word for stupid.Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
Yeah, but that's my question, though. Why is it that calling someone retarded makes you sound like an asshole, but calling someone crazy doesn't? Aren't they kind of the same thing? Not in the sense of describing the same handicap, as it were, but in the sense of describing A handicap, in less than polite terms? And then applying it to someone who doesn't actually have that handicap, as though implying that someone has that handicap is an insult?Quote:
Originally posted by pepperlandgirl
Ugh... I don't feel like arguing with the logic of saying certain words are bad to use but I'll chime in briefly.
Using the word retard is ok unless your right infront of the retard in question, then it's just a mean insult. You wouldn't call your cunt friend a cunt to her face right? NO you wouldn't, she's your cunt friend and that's special either way.
Using the word gay to describe something lame is ok. It doesn't mean gay people are lame it means that douchebag over there is lame. I know this must be confusing but words can have multiple meanings. I know this is also confusing but sometimes society makes something happen regardless of what everybody thinks about it. To point: I've heard gays use gay to describe something as bad. It's in the vocabulary, it'll be really hard to take it out at the moment. Just roll with it. We're dudes, I mean homo or straight at least you're not a girl.
I think this is a perfectly legitimate question.Quote:
Originally posted by Sarahfeena
If someone doesn't see something that is right in front of their face, I might say, "Are you blind?" as blind means someone who has trouble seeing or can't see at all.
If someone is having trouble grasping an extremely elementary concept, I might say, "Are you retarded?" as retarded means someone who has cognitive disabilities and therefore will not get concepts that other people would understand.
There are people that will say either of the above is ablist and offensive. I get that. I know there are people in the world who feel that way. If someone were to call me on my use of either of those terms, I would apologize and not use them in that person's presence. I wouldn't argue that "retarded" is no longer the preferred term (developmentally or intellectually disabled is) so it is now completely divorced from its previous meaning and ok to use. I wouldn't say I took a survey of 20 people on my street and none of us had ever seen a blind person so it is not offensive. I would accept that using those words had consequences and move the fuck on.
"Crazy" is the same. If someone objected to me using the word, I wouldn't, even if I didn't personally agree with their reasoning. That's just the choice I would make. It's not a hardship to refrain from using a certain term out of politeness.
But do you think that the first uses of "gay" to mean "lame" came from people saying, "that dude over there is lame, just like a gay person", or that some people still use it that way? I do.Quote:
Originally posted by hatesfreedom
Oh yah of course, I think I was in the generation that started using it all the time as a kid.Quote:
Originally posted by Myrnalene
I think all your points here are perfectly reasonable. The reason I was thinking about this is that there is another board I read that uses the term "crazy," or it's internet variation "craxy" literally every day. But if you use the word "retarded" there, it can cause a 40-page pile on (and I'm not exaggerating). So...why is it that, as a culture, we've become sensitive to the word retarded, and sensitive to people with that handicap, but we haven't done the same for people with other handicaps, such as, well, craziness?Quote:
Originally posted by Myrnalene
We have become too sensitive in my opinion but it is a minority opinion.
I agree with yah on that completely.Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
Another thought..."crazy" people are FAR more marginalized and feared in this society, IMO, than people with, say, Down Syndrome. So, shouldn't that make us more considerate of how we throw around perjoratives that are used to describe them? Or is that just a symptom of the fact that they are marginalized and feared?
I have no idea. I agree with your logic that if one is offensive, both are offensive. Maybe the mentally disabled advocates just woke up first and the mental illness advocates will be next in line. Maybe it's that mental illness is something people are still afraid to talk about or something people blame the patient for. ("You're depressed? Get over it! :roll: "). I really just don't know.Quote:
Originally posted by Sarahfeena
It's also your intellectually normal straight white male with all his limbs opinion.Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
Just sayin'.
Fair but rather arbitrary rules. I still don't see a major difference between crazy and retarded in this case. Describing Joe Morgan as crazy does not make sense, describing him as stupid or retarded does.Quote:
Originally posted by pepperlandgirl
Myrna your links point to Europe. Who uses the term gypsy in the present tense today? Are there any gypsy issues in the US? Gypsy and Paki might be very negative terms overseas, but I no more expect US citizens to worry about these then I expect Europeans to worry about the charged and insensitive terms in the US.Quote:
Originally posted by Myrnalene
Of course it's arbitrary. Language is arbitrary. It really doesn't matter if you don't see a difference, or if you insist that you can still use certain words in a derogatory way. You won't go to jail. The language police won't come for you. But you will look like an asshole, and if that matters to you, then I suggest you rethink your usage. If it doesn't matter to you, then ok.Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
As for the OP, I don't really know what the difference is. I think it's because "crazy" and variations of it (like lunatic) have been part of the standard lexicon for so long that we don't think about it. I mean, nobody would get on your case if you said "This place is Bedlam!" even though Bedlam is referring to a very specific, very evil place with a history that is being directly referenced. There also might be more advocates for the mentally handicapped than the mentally ill who are willing to fight and bring the issue into the public eye.
A few months ago, there was a minor kerfluffle in blogland. An aspiring author made a post on her blog, somebody commented rather snarkily, an agent commented to that and told her to "take her pills and relax." The original blogger wrote a very angry screed about the agent, taking her to task for being so casual about mental illness. On the one hand, I think the original blogger had a bit of a point. On the other hand, her response was so over the top that it was difficult to side with her.
Jim, why are you arguing so passionately to use a word that means "steals from people, like a Gypsy would"?. It's a term with an ugly fucking implication, just like "nigger-rigged" or "Jewed me". You know what it means, so why doesn't it offend you?
Yes? Why wouldn't there be? Because you personally have never heard of it? "Gypped" is a US word per Wiki. That means that people in the United States equated the entire race with theivery. You want to continue doing this. For God's sake, why?Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
ETA: This is far beyond what Sarah is talking about in the OP. This is a word that was created in a racist environment to express a racist belief.
I think this:
Like the word Negro, Retarded enjoyed regular and generally accepted use during some vaguely recent but less enlightened time.
I hear the word negro, and I think of America just prior to the civil rights movement. I hear the word retarded and I think of when most folks hadn't heard of Down Syndrome.
Retarded was applied to just about anyone who wasn't "quite right"
Crazy goes back too far to conjure the same icky reaction.
Minor note: your link appears to be broken.Quote:
Originally posted by Myrnalene
I really am not that passionate about it. I just don't think most people associate the word gyp with any group in the US.
BTW: I don't think I use the term normally except in debates on the subject.
Pep, it sounds like from your post crazy should be treated exactly the same way as retarded. Many will take offense from the word crazy, we should probably be a lot more careful how we use it following the logic of this thread.
To clarify, while I don't use gyp or jip or gypped I do still use retarded. Usually in connection to politicians or Joe Morgan. I hope you don't think I am too much of an asshole for the use of this one word.
Now on the other side, I find it funny that posters I like very much that use words casually I almost always avoid in writing and try to avoid in speaking get upset by words like retarded instead. The various curse words seem far more likely to be offensive. I don't really worry about either myself.
I doubt most people in the united states have ever even thought about where the word gypped came from, have never intentionally give a shit about gypsies, and consider most of europe to be a bunch of frog loving lesbians. I don't even know what that means actually. Buncha frog loving lesbians.Quote:
Originally posted by Myrnalene
The BFL2, as they are better know, are best remembered for their role in getting White Castle to punch little holes in their hamburger patties.Quote:
Originally posted by hatesfreedom
http://girlfriday.typepad.com/.a/6a0...47ecab18834-pi
While I can understand the urge to use the word in these cases, I think the point is that the problem isn't that it's offensive to Joe Morgan and the politicians, it's that it's offensive to retarded people. I mean, think about it...you're comparing the retarded people to Joe Morgan. Is that a nice thing to do to them? :pQuote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
But isn't crazy applied to just about anyone who isn't "quite right?" I think I'm missing your point somewhere.Quote:
Originally posted by Oliveloaf
Well you have a point on the politicians, they are usually rotten people too and I should not insult people with disabilities by comparing them. But Joe Morgan is just mentally defective and no other term sums it up as well.Quote:
Originally posted by Sarahfeena
Was crazy ever an actual diagnosis for mental illness, though? In the last fifty years, anyway?
Retarded certainly was, but crazy has all sorts of shades of meaning to it. If we were all using manic or schizo as commonly as we use crazy, then your comparison would make more sense to me, as I associate those words more directly with quantifiable mental illness diagnoses.
Mentally challenged people were, until fairly recently, called retarded.Quote:
Originally posted by Sarahfeena
It was completely okay, as I recall, in the Eighties to call people that.
Because we've grown more sensitive (and presumably smarter) we know that that "mental retardation" takes numerous forms and occurs in varying degrees. Down Syndrome being the best understood by most people.
Retarded is taboo now largely because of its relatively recent overuse and misuse.
Crazy hasn't had any legitimate meaning for decades. Its use suggests historic medically quackery more than any recent indifferent lack of compassion.
OK, I see the point that elmwood, QT, and Oliveloaf are making now. That does make a certain amount of sense. Apparently, "spaz" is considered non-PC now, for the same reason.
Spaz is out too? I did not know this but then I don't really recall hearing it recently either.
I use every single offensive word I can think of. I'm just careful about the company I use it in.
My only input in the retard/crazy argument is that my mom has been working with special needs kids for a decade now, and she and her co-workers still make 'special' jokes when they're alone-although usually in reference to themselves, never at the expense of the kids (who are lovely and adorable btw).
I am not giving up spaz.
Is dork still okay?
Okay, let me try this again. My first post was full of fail.Quote:
Originally posted by Sarahfeena
The dictionary definition of "crazy" is "brainsick: affected with madness or insanity". People who are bipolar, ADHD/primary hyperactive, schizophrenic, have Tourette syndrome with frequent racist verbal tics, and so on could be called "crazy" when their condition is at its peak or most frantic. Likewise, normal people can be "crazy" when they've had a lot of mind-altering substances, become overly enraged or overjoyed, or have PMS. :D
The dictionary definition of "stupid" is "lacking or marked by lack of intellectual acuity". When you drink a lot of alcohol, you become "stupid. A brain fart is a temporary state of stupidity. When you hear a redneck shout "Hey, look at this!", it's going to be followed by an act of stupidity that will likely result in injury. Likewise, retarded people, with limited intelligence, can be called "stupid". Yes, they're all sweet, kind, friendly, love McDonald's, and go "yay!" a lot, but the group is one of those that falls into the dictionary definition of "stupid."
It's okay to call someone or something "crazy" as an insult, but it's probably considered unacceptable to use a specific mental illness; "You schitzo!" (ADD/ADHD is a subject for ridicule that raises few eyebrows, but that might be changing.) It's probably the same logic with "stupid" and the specific form of "stupid" known as mental retardation.
I got you, elmwood, it wasn't your fault...I was just slow on the uptake. But good follow-up explanation, thanks! :)
Aside from discussing certain racial situations, I can't think of many ethnic slurs I ever use (gypped is hardly a word that comes up often in my life), but otherwise I agree with this. I don't get all worked up when somebody uses a term that could be applied to me as an insult unless they are actually insulting my group.Quote:
Originally posted by RabbitMage
If somebody calls a guy a "bitch" or a "pussy" or says something is "gay" I just can't get worked up about it, unless they are actively saying "BEING FEMALE IS BAD. HAVING FEMALE GENITALIA IS BAD. HOMOSEXUALS ARE BAD." And nine times out of ten, that isn't the thought process behind those terms. When I hear someone describe a human being insultingly as "looking like a tranny"? That's bad. Calling a video game "gay" is kind of hard to get worked up about. Saying somebody is acting "crazy"? Eh.
In my recent life I have sadly (for the first time) had close dealings with someone who seems to be mentally ill.
I've really been struck by the stigma that is attached to mental illness. People don't want to talk about it, don't know what to say or do when confronted with it, and seem to just want to pretend it doesn't exist.
Myself I've strived to be as sensitive as I reasonably can, generally using "mentally ill" or even "exhibiting symptoms of mental illness" most of the time. But when the anger or frustration at the situations comes out, I will use the word "crazy".
My point, if I have one, is that mental illness seems to be one of the last taboos in American society. So maybe that makes it still OK to use the less PC term?
Wow, you guys are posting like electric niggers in this thread.
Without getting into whether etymology necessarily determines usage (okay, I will : it doesn't and shouldn't), we don't even have a definite source for the origin of 'gyp'.
So if you think it must derive from "steals the way a gypsy would", that must make you a retarded anti-gypsy racist, I think. And since I likely share ancestry about 6 generations back with some Sinti people, I'm offended.
I have plenty of European ancestry, so it's very possible your ancestors gypped mine. YOU offend me. Good day sir!
See, while I myself don't get too worked up over these things for the most part (and have used the terms myself in that way :fail:), it's always in the back of my mind that the reason they are chosen is ultimately because they are implying the latter meanings.Quote:
Originally posted by Zuul
Especially "pussy", how can you separate literally calling a man female genitallia to mean he is a coward from the idea behind it that all women are (or at least should be) weak and fearful? I honestly can't.
I guess I agree and don't agree as pussy as a coward is more from the idea of scairdy cat.Quote:
Originally posted by Taumpy
"Pussy Whipped" is not really related, and is clearly saying the man is controlled by his woman. There is an implied chauvinistic view here than men should be the ones in controlled so I can see a complaint here though it seems minor to me.
Now C*nt and Dick are pretty much interchangeable but C*nt has taken on a far graver level of insult it seems. But both are really about the same and few seem to get as upset by Dick.
Well, right, and doesn't that say something that it's way worse to call a woman a "cunt" than to call a guy a "dick"? They're apparently not the same, even though it seems logical that they would be.Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
I don't really understand it, but I do completely avoid using the term to the point of even in conversations like this I use the * wimp out route. Much like using the N-word in other talk. I do know I have used the phrase "What a dick move" or in Cheney's case, outright called him a dick.
Why is it worse, though? I've been called a cunt a few times. I literally laughed it off. It's just a word.Quote:
Originally posted by Exy
And the Paralympics?Quote:
Originally posted by pepperlandgirl
It can be offensive but is often a non-gender specific term of endearment here. "How are ya ya cunt ya!" is a not-unknown greeting.Quote:
Originally posted by Zuul
I've been thinking about this thread a lot, and I think the word crazy is off-limits. It is certainly not polite to write off people with mental illnesses as "crazy." If somebody is being treated for Bipolar Disorder, or PTSD, or schizophrenia, or whatever else, it wouldn't be socially acceptable to say "Oh, ignore her, she's just crazy." When people told a certain poster on the SDMB to "adjust his meds" even though his history with mental illness was well known, it caused a huge kerfluffle. So I think the way we view and use the word has shifted slightly, to the point that we can use it in casual conversation, but not when referring to mental illness, you know?
And perhaps that why it doesn't get me grasping my pearls and swooning. I've heard it a lot, in many different contexts, and while it can be used as an insult it's hardly one I'm going to flip out over anymore than I'd be offended by any insult.Quote:
Originally posted by An Gadaí
It's always funny to me that over there you guys just use it freely without meaning any offense. Not many people over here use it that way.Quote:
Originally posted by An Gadaí
Clearly the cunt-positive movement needs to work harder, then.Quote:
Originally posted by Exy
I just want to state, for the record, I am pro-cunt.
No one has every said this before. I challenge anyone to prove me different.Quote:
Originally posted by RabbitMage
Actually, Google proves this to be correct. I looked.Quote:
Originally posted by Oliveloaf
I once had the "female specific insult" conversation with a girl I worked with several years ago. She was adamant that it was worse to be called a bitch than a cunt because female dogs (bitches) are known for having a lot of sex. :rolleyes:
Back to crazy versus retarded, though. In my experience, "retarded" seems to only be used to describe human behavior, while "crazy" can be used to describe other things. You might say "This rain is crazy," but it's less likely you'd say "It's so retarded that it rained on the day we were going to the beach," or something of the like.
Correct. I would never in a million years look down on someone who is just plain not very smart. That would be cruel and arrogant.Quote:
Originally posted by elmwood
When I say 'stupid', I am talking to or about a person of normal intelligence who just refuses to use it for whatever reason.