Middle Earth D&D Game: FA63 Setup Thread.

The discussion still seems to be going on right here so I may as well post this as send it via PM; there's no privileged information in it. I'm sorry if the turn this has taken now makes you feel as though you are forced to cheat publicly in order to save Mellowbeorn's undeserving life, but since you told me "You're dead. There's nothing I can or will do" I don't think it's my fault for interpreting that as meaning that I was dead and there was nothing you could or would do, and posting accordingly. It may help all of us if we're on the same page concerning our expectations out of this campaign.

For me it's not so much a question of attachment to my PC as anger at the betrayal of implied trust - that I would not be insta-killed without the chance to do anything about it; and being told by an apparently contrite DM that he had no alternative was just the icing on the cake. It's no excuse to say "that's how I set up the encounter". If you put a cloak of poisonousness into a treasure hoard, and a PC puts it on and dies with no save as per the rules, you don't get to say "but I didn't think anyone would put it on!".

Which brings us round to the goblin's warning, which I did find vague and unclear. I think a case can be made for a greater sense of urgency - such as you would use to a favourite, well-meaning but unworldly uncle who was casually announcing that he couldn't possibly pay the Mob protection money, and was sure that if he went and had a civil word with the capo it would all be smoothed out painlessly. Such an urgent warning is warranted if Captain Ratbastard does operate a shoot-to-kill policy, and either:

- Snaga knows this in-character, and acts to preserve my life as per Charm Person
- Snaga doesn't know this in-character, but you want to avoid the insta-kill situation.

(The cleared field of fire is no clue at all. That's SOP around any fortification, unless the defenders are druids.)

Assuming that you've not issued any such warning, though, let's cut to the scene at the tower and assume that Captain Ratbastard is a thinking, reasoning being, not just a 4+1HD monster with +7 to hit, +8 damage and save vs poison. You have said that he's paranoid and sick and tired of the Elves and Rangers. Very well, I'm plainly not an Elf and I'm sure as shooting the damned strangest Ranger he's ever seen. What am I up to?

- Am I coming in to negotiate surrender terms? All right, he'll negotiate - with a red-hot iron up my arse, and then when whoever I'm negotiating for turns up, he'll fight to the last orc
- Am I a renegade Man willing to sell out some Elves and Rangers? That's all Captain Ratbastard's birthdays coming at once! No doubt I'll be expecting payment. Well, *heh heh heh*, there'll be payment all right...
- Am I some kind of madman? I'll look all the more amusing over a slow fire, once the boys get tired of peeling an inch of my hide off every day...

The idea that I might be some kind of wizard, *just* powerful enough to cause trouble if he lets me get close enough, but still weak enough to be shot down on the instant - in a campaign where magic is rare - should be quite low on his list of suspicions.

You still don't want to let me in the tower? Fine, I can be stopped in a number of ways if you're sincere about wanting to avoid a meaningless PC death.
- One of the non-HK orcs, also manning the ramparts, is the first to see me and shoot, hitting me twice but leaving me conscious, running headlong for cover and admitting the plan is not going to work
- Captain Ratbastard, not having watched a madman die of poison for a while, looses off a *single* envenomed arrow which, if it doesn't kill me outright, will leave me writhing and screaming in an amusing manner for a couple of minutes before I croak in a welter of foam, shit and contorted limbs. (Actually I'll be running headlong for cover and, if I stay conscious long enough, frantically making with the Neutralise Poison if I did fail my save, but precious few people Captain R ever meets could do that, and he doesn't know I'm going to.)
- Captain Ratbastard looses off twice, hits twice, the DM realizes I've gone straight to -10 hit points and *gasp* fudges the damage roll so I'm only on -7, and none of the players is any the wiser.

You keep reiterating this 95% hit probability as if it meant you had no alternative but to take me from full health to stone dead in a New York second. It doesn't. You need to ask yourself "Is this taking the encounter in the direction I want it?", and if the answer is a horrified "No", it may mean that the script needs to be changed to produce the satisfactory outcome, rather than changing your definition of "satisfactory outcome" to fit the script.

Now, let's assume that CR held his fire for any of the reasons above. You're saying I was certainly dead if I ever got into the tower. Why, based on the intel we have - a few orcs and goblins? Let's take a closer look:

Captain Ratbastard turns to one of the lessers on the ramparts. "Go help Snaga with that Man he's bringing in. The rest of us are staying up here. If this is some kind of a trick, those Elves and Rangers are going to find us waiting for them - and I'll give you a yell to put a knife in that Man's guts."

Mellowbeorn enters and there are either few enough enemies on hand he can start to Charm them as per Plan A, or else they're suspicious, have weapons pointed at him and are about to put manacles on him. In that case it's time for Plan B - drop, roll, turn into bear, crushing the oil-flasks and lantern as he does so. Now he and any combustibles in the room are on fire. The Orcs roll initiative, they only need an 11 to hit him so he's hit three times and has to save vs poison as one of them is using a poisoned knife...

Wait, what? Someone's set himself on fire, and their first reaction is to attack him? Whatever happened to:
- Point and laugh at the burning lunatic (probably not an option in a confined space)
- Try and put him out, Captain Ratbastard wants him alive (probably not an easy option when you're dealing with a burning bear who isn't cooperating)
- Try and put the fire in the room out (probably not an easy option unless their fire-drill is really tip-top)
- Shout "Fire!" and flee in panic - at least the madman is incinerating himself, they can wait for him to run out of the flames and die amusingly

The ideal outcome for me is that they flee, the door is now wide open, the stairwell is acting as a superb natural chimney, smoke and flames are rendering it impossible for Captain Ratbastard and co to get downstairs without taking a lot of fire damage, the fire is spreading upstairs, panic and mayhem is prevailing, the reinforcements are coming it, the archers on the ramparts are hampered by the smoke...

I admit that this entails the defenders making a wrong decision or two, but they aren't in possession of all the facts. The DM is, but I trust him to referee fairly.

Alternatively, and this is where we get onto the betrayal of trust issue, we can assume that all monsters are Borg-like killing machines existing only as hit points, To Hit bonuses, armour class, damage and special attacks, and only the PCs are expected to role-play. In this instance I think you were guilty of an "only tool is a hammer" moment - when your monster is munchkinned as the ultimate Uruk-Hai archer, every problem looks like a pincushion. But, you know, if the object of the campaign is that one side should reduce the other's hit points in the most effective fashion, and whoever runs out of hit points last is the winner, then so be it.

You have three options, Jim. Arrange for Mellowbeorn to survive if you think it is fair on the other players and your campaign. Have him die and me drop out of the campaign. Have him die and give me a replacement character. But if you do choose the third option, then I know how the land lies and this is the character I will play:


A fighter named "Fie Turr" (or maybe "Eh-hugh"), either human or dwarven. Dwarves are good because they get a Constitution bonus, high resistance to poison and magic, and some special abilities, but Men can ride horses and use some bigger weapons - and that (along with ascertaining whichever kind of Men get the biggest stat bonus) will be the *only* factor in my decision. Str, Con and Dex in that order, please. I'd like a Wis just high enough to void saving throw penalties. Int and Cha will be dump stats and I shall "roleplay" them accordingly. The heaviest armour I can clank around in, I'll choose my weapons after I've gone over the penetration tables with a magnifying glass and, again, that will be the only factor in my decision.

Fie-Turr will display the kind of rank ignorance of his own culture and Middle-Earth in general that will convince you it's a capital crime to understand the campaign background. He will have no aim in life other than to subtract hit points from the enemy while retaining his own, all NPCs will either be a source of treasure, healing, directions to something he can kill, or (if female) something to try and have sex with, or will not exist as far as he's concerned. He won't remember the names even of useful NPCs - not if "the elf" or "old pointy-ears" will do (except that he might remember to call Glorfindel "the elf-king") - places, items or indeed anything except his raison d'etre: staying alive while ensuring that the enemy do not (for no reason other than that they're "the enemy").

But, by dayum! - if he hears of something in the vicinity that can shoot him to death, he will assume that it will certainly shoot him on sight no matter what he does, and you won't get him near it with oxen and wainropes. And no doubt his career will be long and glorious.


I assume that such a travesty of so-called roleplaying is as abhorrent to you as it is to me :lol: and you would prefer in your campaign the kind of PC who, on being invited by King Eomer to name their own reward for a beautiful song, will take nothing but friendship and a read of the King's copy of the Halfling's Book (game value: nil). So work with me here. :)

I don't expect to bear a charmed life. But it would be helpful and, I think, fairer, to ensure in general that between "Your plan doesn't seem to be working" and "...you're dead" there came at least some opportunity for a PC to save himself. That might make you a worse referee if, say, this were a D&D tournament and you were concerned not to favour one group of players over another. This is a different kettle of fish and, as per the Parable of Bilbo and the Dragon, above, the outcome might be a more entertaining story.


Footnote: "Nu-Uh and Ugh!" indeed to the Dallas Solution! :lol:

Well first things first, we need to see if anyone else ends up in desperate need of help/rescue. Mellowbeorn can be saved and I am ready to play it out. The party probably needs to be planning to abandon the mission anyway as they are now down their stronger spellcaster. Mellowbeorn will be shifted to bear shape by effort as the second arrow hit and once the Sweet Water is administered the bear will be mostly fine. The problem becomes he needs special healing from a place like Rivendell or he will never regain his human form. Even with help it will take 21 days but I don't think this is a major obstacle.

As I said, we now need to see if the party can do enough to pull back out of this situation without any more losses. The situation is very dangerous. If the Leader is still alive he won't be easy to finish off.

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Originally posted by What Exit?

Well first things first, we need to see if anyone else ends up in desperate need of help/rescue. Mellowbeorn can be saved and I am ready to play it out. The party probably needs to be planning to abandon the mission anyway as they are now down their stronger spellcaster. Mellowbeorn will be shifted to bear shape by effort as the second arrow hit and once the Sweet Water is administered the bear will be mostly fine. The problem becomes he needs special healing from a place like Rivendell or he will never regain his human form. Even with help it will take 21 days but I don't think this is a major obstacle.

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Thanks for offering a solution.
If we do have to retreat and heal up, could we do the same thing as in your SDMB game; i.e. time passes for all so we can all continue playing?

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Originally posted by What Exit?

As I said, we now need to see if the party can do enough to pull back out of this situation without any more losses. The situation is very dangerous. If the Leader is still alive he won't be easy to finish off.

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[Channelling Sabert] This unholy being will go down before the might of good! I shall challenge HIM in the name of the King! [unchannelling]

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Originally posted by glee

Thanks for offering a solution.
If we do have to retreat and heal up, could we do the same thing as in your SDMB game; i.e. time passes for all so we can all continue playing?

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Yes we can and it is no problem. Beside Malacandra is leaning towards taking the loss of XP option to speed things up.

Yes, that seemed fairer to me - and makes it plain to the party that this privilege is not one I'll be likely to abuse.

If I'm "mostly fine", and the Friar is able to pray for Speak With Animals, that might make communication a little easier over the next few days. :lol:

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Originally posted by What Exit?

... Malacandra is leaning towards taking the loss of XP option to speed things up.

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Originally posted by Malacandra

Yes, that seemed fairer to me - and makes it plain to the party that this privilege is not one I'll be likely to abuse.

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Um, does that mean the Druid takes an XP hit :smash: , but recovers to rejoin the party?

If so, I think that's very sporting by all concerned. :cool:

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Originally posted by glee

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Originally posted by What Exit?

... Malacandra is leaning towards taking the loss of XP option to speed things up.

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Originally posted by Malacandra

Yes, that seemed fairer to me - and makes it plain to the party that this privilege is not one I'll be likely to abuse.

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Um, does that mean the Druid takes an XP hit :smash: , but recovers to rejoin the party?

If so, I think that's very sporting by all concerned. :cool:

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He still needs medical help, more than the party can give. Even finding Glorfindel would not help, so unless Elrohir, Elladan, Aragorn, Arwen or maybe Princess Gilraen a trained healer of Estë :wink: is wandering by, he needs to return to Rivendell.

From the Game Thread:

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Originally posted by What Exit?

The Protection from Evil does not help vs. Arrows. Though the Leader is probably a strong enough evil to suffer the ill-effects of the protection.

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I thought the Protection from Evil would work against any attack by an Evil opponent (e.g. you'd get a +2 on your save v a spell at long range).

What are the ill-effects of the protection?

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Originally posted by glee

From the Game Thread:

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Originally posted by What Exit?

The Protection from Evil does not help vs. Arrows. Though the Leader is probably a strong enough evil to suffer the ill-effects of the protection.

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I thought the Protection from Evil would work against any attack by an Evil opponent (e.g. you'd get a +2 on your save v a spell at long range).

What are the ill-effects of the protection?

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I need to verify that later, but as I recall you are right about the spells and the evil creature is -2 to hit if he can even pass the barrier of the Protection. Non-aligned Missiles don't care about the Prot vs. Evil though.

Where is the Friar?

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Originally posted by OneCentStamp

Where is the Friar?

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He could be heading for the tower. I need to wait for Armande. Someone might want to signal him to rush over.

[quote=What Exit?]

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Originally posted by glee

From the Game Thread:

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Originally posted by "What Exit?":3tnpf6do

The Protection from Evil does not help vs. Arrows. Though the Leader is probably a strong enough evil to suffer the ill-effects of the protection.

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I thought the Protection from Evil would work against any attack by an Evil opponent (e.g. you'd get a +2 on your save v a spell at long range).

What are the ill-effects of the protection?

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I need to verify that later, but as I recall you are right about the spells and the evil creature is -2 to hit if he can even pass the barrier of the Protection. Non-aligned Missiles don't care about the Prot vs. Evil though.[/quote:3tnpf6do]

I think only Summoned or Conjured creatures have problems passing the barrier.
If a Non-aligned Missile (fired by an evil guy) isn't affected by the Protection, why is a Non-aligned Sword affected?

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Originally posted by glee

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Originally posted by What Exit?

I need to verify that later, but as I recall you are right about the spells and the evil creature is -2 to hit if he can even pass the barrier of the Protection. Non-aligned Missiles don't care about the Prot vs. Evil though.

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I think only Summoned or Conjured creatures have problems passing the barrier.
If a Non-aligned Missile (fired by an evil guy) isn't affected by the Protection, why is a Non-aligned Sword affected?

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Glad you asked that, the Evil creature is up against the Prot vs. Evil, he is feeling the ill-effect. It is similar to Gilraen's song. The Archer is probably far more than 10' away.

As to the Creatures, I have generally played it for this world as most of the strong Undead, critters like the Werewolves, Shelob and Vampires and of course Balrogs.

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Originally posted by glee

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Originally posted by What Exit?

I need to verify that later, but as I recall you are right about the spells and the evil creature is -2 to hit if he can even pass the barrier of the Protection. Non-aligned Missiles don't care about the Prot vs. Evil though.

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I think only Summoned or Conjured creatures have problems passing the barrier.
If a Non-aligned Missile (fired by an evil guy) isn't affected by the Protection, why is a Non-aligned Sword affected?

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Also ghouls (as a specific named weakness) and ghasts (ditto, but only if the protection is reinforced with cold iron). However, I doubt either exists in this campaign.

/trivia

The way I've usually seen it refereed is that a Prot Evil cannot be crossed by
- anything not on its own plane
- anything that has turned up in response to a conjuration or summoning
- ghouls (and ghasts as noted)

and hence such creatures cannot make natural-weapon attacks through the Protection. Meanwhile, all attacks launched by anything with "evil" as an alignment component get -2 to hit (or +2 to the protected person's saving throw), as a generalised "bad mojo" effect. The protected person can force himself closer to a warded-out creature than the radius of the protection (for instance, a paladin could corner a ghoul and then close to hand-to-hand range) and this would void the exclusion/no natural-weapon clause, but the mojo effect still applies.

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Originally posted by What Exit?

I need to verify that later, but as I recall you are right about the spells and the evil creature is -2 to hit if he can even pass the barrier of the Protection. Non-aligned Missiles don't care about the Prot vs. Evil though.

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Originally posted by glee

I think only Summoned or Conjured creatures have problems passing the barrier.
If a Non-aligned Missile (fired by an evil guy) isn't affected by the Protection, why is a Non-aligned Sword affected?

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Originally posted by What Exit?

Glad you asked that, the Evil creature is up against the Prot vs. Evil, he is feeling the ill-effect. It is similar to Gilraen's song. The Archer is probably far more than 10' away.

As to the Creatures, I have generally played it for this world as most of the strong Undead, critters like the Werewolves, Shelob and Vampires and of course Balrogs.

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I've played Protection v Evil like malacandra has - any Evil attack from any distance gives the bonus.
On your rules, if an Archer is point blank (e.g. within 10') the bonus applies?
How come a spell like Hold Person is affected at a distance if cast by an Evil Cleric, but not by a Neutral one?

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Originally posted by glee

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Originally posted by What Exit?

Glad you asked that, the Evil creature is up against the Prot vs. Evil, he is feeling the ill-effect. It is similar to Gilraen's song. The Archer is probably far more than 10' away.

As to the Creatures, I have generally played it for this world as most of the strong Undead, critters like the Werewolves, Shelob and Vampires and of course Balrogs.

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I've played Protection v Evil like malacandra has - any Evil attack from any distance gives the bonus.
On your rules, if an Archer is point blank (e.g. within 10') the bonus applies?
How come a spell like Hold Person is affected at a distance if cast by an Evil Cleric, but not by a Neutral one?

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Yes to the really close missile attacks but I don't understand the spell question.

The Paladin gets a bonus vs. spells casted by evil cleric is correct. Though if an evil Sorceror drops an Ice wall on the Paladin that is simply kinetic energy at that point and not magic.

I am not the best but I will do all in my power, including praying for some intervention, fat chance of that, aside from the Gods seeking active interest I suggest we get the helk out of here to a safe point or secure this dang area so we can make a safe retreat.

Friar

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Originally posted by Armande

I am not the best but I will do all in my power, including praying for some intervention, fat chance of that, aside from the Gods seeking active interest I suggest we get the helk out of here to a safe point or secure this dang area so we can make a safe retreat.

Friar

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Um, you know your religion best - but do you want to call for Divine Aid when there are only a couple of orcs left?

I'm not sure how we retreat to a safe place across open ground with no cover with a Hunter Killer on a roof nearby.
Securing the area also surely means killing the leader.
The plan is for you to heal Dugar (and Sabert if you can), then the Dwarf leads the Warriors out onto the roof.

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Originally posted by glee

I thought the Protection from Evil would work against any attack by an Evil opponent (e.g. you'd get a +2 on your save v a spell at long range).

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Originally posted by What Exit?

I need to verify that later, but as I recall you are right about the spells...

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Originally posted by glee

How come a spell like Hold Person is affected at a distance if cast by an Evil Cleric, but not by a Neutral one?

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Originally posted by What Exit?

Yes to the really close missile attacks but I don't understand the spell question.
The Paladin gets a bonus vs. spells casted by evil cleric is correct. Though if an evil Sorceror drops an Ice wall on the Paladin that is simply kinetic energy at that point and not magic.

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By this last I meant that you distinguish between an Evil Cleric casting spells (which do gain the Protection) but there's no Protection if he fires 'Non-aligned Missiles'.
I wondered if spells could be Non-aligned', hence my question about Neutral Clerics...

Um , treating Protection from Evil 10 ' as only working if the attacker is within 10' of the Paladin (rather than party members within 10' of the Paladin getting the bonus) throws up some interesting points; e.g. if an evil attacker is within 10' of a Paladin and attacks a person 60' away (with spell or missile), does that person gain +2 on his AC and Saves?

And if an Evil Cleric uses Animate Object to drop a piano on a Paladin, is that just kinetic energy or an attack by an Evil person?

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Originally posted by glee

By this last I meant that you distinguish between an Evil Cleric casting spells (which do gain the Protection) but there's no Protection if he fires 'Non-aligned Missiles'.
I wondered if spells could be Non-aligned', hence my question about Neutral Clerics...

Um , treating Protection from Evil 10 ' as only working if the attacker is within 10' of the Paladin (rather than party members within 10' of the Paladin getting the bonus) throws up some interesting points; e.g. if an evil attacker is within 10' of a Paladin and attacks a person 60' away (with spell or missile), does that person gain +2 on his AC and Saves?

And if an Evil Cleric uses Animate Object to drop a piano on a Paladin, is that just kinetic energy or an attack by an Evil person?

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OK, you are making my brain hurt, but once gravity takes over, no save bonus.

You couldn't drop a piano on someone with Animate Object, you'd need Telekinesis for that. An animated piano would only be able to roll along the ground (I suppose a grand piano could charge on its three legs and snap with its lid). Prot Evil wouldn't affect it, whereas if you summoned a piano from somewhere or conjured one from the Demi-Plane of Sentient Musical Instruments - or were accompanied by a pianodemon that had reached our plane by gate or plane shift of its own A-chord - such a piano would be hedged out completely by the spell.

Mind you, I also doubt that pianos exist in this campaign. Just as well, because if one dropped on you, you would be flattened - and I don't suppose the poor piano would be in very good tune, either. :lol:

DM,

Sandy described himself as a Hobbit Archer.
Does he have skills like Find Traps and Hide in Shadows?

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Originally posted by glee

DM,

Sandy described himself as a Hobbit Archer.
Does he have skills like Find Traps and Hide in Shadows?

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No, none at all for traps, he is good at keeping very low and sneaking around outside.
Trap finding is your job I thought?

I was just checking on a suggestion in the main thread.

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Originally posted by glee

I was just checking on a suggestion in the main thread.

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Gotcha, I saw that after I posted above.

Bah- Macsalin dodging my backslap! If this were a real game and in real time, I might be tempted to try to roll to see if I was sucessful at patting you....
Next time... next time- I'll back pat you one of these days! You WILL be moral boosted by Sabert eventually!

Glee likes RoOsh; Macsalin doesn't like Sabert...

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Originally posted by RoOsh

Bah- Macsalin dodging my backslap! If this were a real game and in real time, I might be tempted to try to roll to see if I was sucessful at patting you....
Next time... next time- I'll back pat you one of these days!

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Macsalin thought you were trying to smack him round the head. :smash:

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Originally posted by RoOsh

You WILL be moral boosted by Sabert eventually!

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Macsalin will accept neither moral nor morale advice from Sabert. :tongue:

Sabert cannot see the dislike yet. He just assumes you have low self esteem.
Anyone is worthy of talking to Sabert. No need to put yourself down. :)
Hence, Sabert's attempts of bonding with you. He will win hearts and minds!
You Will Like Him Too! One Day....

Is it wrong that I picture Captain Hammer during this whole exchange saying these things? (-_-)

:D

RoOsh, you know I said Sabert was a great creation?
Well he is (because I've known someone just like him!) ... but he gets right up Macsalin's nose. :smack

All three what are down, Jim? All three tunnels? All three remaining enemies? I'm dense and didn't want to ask for clarification in the story thread. :smack

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Originally posted by OneCentStamp

All three what are down, Jim? All three tunnels? All three remaining enemies? I'm dense and didn't want to ask for clarification in the story thread. :smack

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A Dwarf, an Elf and a Paladin climbed down the ladder.

Well, I'm glad i asked! :smack :lol: :smash:

I don't mind the bugging out, I think it probably needs to be addressed. But I'd rather you guys do it on horseback, ya know?

Only because in watching glee's game- the Party took their time and the Orc thing ate a person that they could have saved. So uh, even though that's not our situation, I'd still like to continue this discussion while we're heading back to town.

Is that fine with everyone?

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Originally posted by RoOsh

I don't mind the bugging out, I think it probably needs to be addressed. But I'd rather you guys do it on horseback, ya know?

Only because in watching glee's game- the Party took their time and the Orc thing ate a person that they could have saved. So uh, even though that's not our situation, I'd still like to continue this discussion while we're heading back to town.

Is that fine with everyone?

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Um, in my game, what do you mean by "the Party took their time and the Orc thing ate a person that they could have saved"?
What could they have done differently?

When they arrived to meet the Orc, he had already eaten the woodcutter. Perhaps there was some way to save him? I'm not really sure (as I'm not involved in the game), but I for some reason felt really bad for that guy (the eaten one). Probably because he was trying to do some good, and was graphically shitted out into a river. (well, the parts in the river probably weren't him, but that could be his fate too eventually).
It was a very nice description but REALLY made me go O_O "Oh crap! Literally! That's disgusting!"

So I guess it's more of an emotional/visceral reaction "We could have done SOMETHING to help!"

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Originally posted by RoOsh

When they arrived to meet the Orc, he had already eaten the woodcutter. Perhaps there was some way to save him? I'm not really sure (as I'm not involved in the game), but I for some reason felt really bad for that guy (the eaten one). Probably because he was trying to do some good, and was graphically shitted out into a river. (well, the parts in the river probably weren't him, but that could be his fate too eventually).
It was a very nice description but REALLY made me go O_O "Oh crap! Literally! That's disgusting!"

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I'm afraid you read the description perfectly. :eek: And that was the reaction I was aiming for - I hope I didn't overdo it. :emb:
The party did all they could...

Do we want to try this again?

I will move the party back to Rivendell and Mellowbeorn will be on his way to good health.

We need to determine a better way for the party to work together and the mission and treatment of captives.
We'll need some sort of Chain of Command too.

Little things, overall the sentiments of Elrohir and Elladan are with Celestir and Dugar. Don't try to rescue goblins, kill with as little trace as possible and move on. Goblins, even enchanted goblins can cause grief from ignorance and different mores. Goblins have little to no honor and the larger Orcs have none at all.

As to the mission, try to minimize risks. While the smaller orcs (goblins) can often be negotiated with, the Uruk-Hai cannot be trusted and are always dangerous. If you do get information from a goblin in exchange for its life, sending it to Gundabad is fine.

I appreciate the role-playing that went on, but I think we need to have RoOsh downplay it, mellow Sabert a bit in the downtime, chalk it up to Theogrim and the Elves.

The party will need to choose a leader, but for game purposes, it should be someone prepared to post fairly often.

Can we do this? Can we get these characters to work together?

A few more game points, try to read the other posts, especially those from me the DM. Too many posts managed to ignore stuff already said and done.

Please avoid quoting at all costs. You will lose experience as it means you are not able to express yourself in character. However mainly it decreases readability of the game thread and makes it harder on the other players.

I'm going to stick to the idea of Sandy leaving the party. I was thinking about adding a Magic User instead unless we get another player. I liked Sandy but it would be out of character to stick to a group like yours. You scared him and put his life at unneeded risk.

When I post maps, maybe you could shortcut them and refer back to them as needed. They come in handy, take time to make and post and answer many questions.


I will try to spell things out more clearly. I will try to set up a next mission with more specific goals and instructions.

Needless to say no one made level. The loot is fairly minor but division of said needs to be done.


Please comment, suggest, gripe or better yet decide how this group can work together for another go at it.

Do you want a different type of mission? It will be too late in the year to head north again anyway.

I am all for trying it again

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Originally posted by Whtwulf

I am all for trying it again

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Thanks Z.

I don't mind. Perhaps getting some people who may want to play a magic user would be nice (from the waiting lists of Glee's game) perhaps.

I'm certainly not going to contradict Elladan and Elrohir in the house of their father and to their face, but neither in the future shall I be charming any goblins just so an impatient dwarf can kill them because he's tired of arguing. He can shoot his own ducks without my getting them to sit for him. That said, I was never out to start a goblins' friendly society, still less after this little unpleasantness. Rest assured that it will be one of our warriors going over the parapet first next time.

I am still prepared to follow Theogrim and I for one intend to listen to him, but if he does not wish to lead then we had better decide on another leader and do as he says.

I'm happy to roleplay anytime!

Having said that I think the main difficulty was that there were two totally incompatible roleplaying groups. Each was perfectly consistent and could have done well by themselves.

Dugar, Celestir and the Friar consider all orcs and goblins irredeemably evil and untrustworthy. (Indeed Tolkien gives this view in the books.)
They are prepared to torture these scum for information and kill all found (even the children). It's a clear way to play and those players stuck to it.

Macsalin, Sabert, Theogrim and the Druid thought there were some goblins (not Orcs, especially not Leaders) who could be persuaded to give information (without torture) and that they should then simply be told to leave the area. This was an important theme of a previous What Exit? campaign on another message board (in fact we're onto his 5th adventure using this style of play).

DM, you must spell out the boundaries precisely if these two groups are ever to work together.
If Dugar's people have a lengthy, deep abiding hatred of Goblins, why on Middle Earth should he listen to Macsalin bleating on about releasing one?
If the Druid finds out useful information from Goblins and makes bargains with them, why should he then watch them being slaughtered?

The big questions are:

- do we use torture* on Orcs and Goblins?
- do we kill Orc and Goblin children*?
- if a Goblin co-operates, do we send it to Gundabad?

*personally I find these things repugnant and wrong for 'Good' characters to do. That's just me.
DM, if you want to work round it, you could have any captured Goblins offer to talk in exchange for their lives and never have the party encounter Orc children.

Theogrim is a fine leader, but OneCentStamp is obviously a busy chap.
If you really need someone who can post regularly, I'm semi-retired. (However if I've narked people in the first adventure, then it wouldn't be good for me to lead :emb: .)

I think adding an MU would really help. We have excellent Fighters, versatile Healers and a (nervous :smile: ) Thief. So an MU would bring a lot to the party.
DM, I assume you'd be happy playing the MU if we don't get another player? It would allow you to 'guide' us, which is always useful (as Elros does in my roleplaying game).
(On a personal note, if this MU had Invisibility, Macsalin could scout far mre confidently. This in turn would give the party more options...)

Bullets:

- I'm definitely up for trying again, and it doesn't even have to be a hard reboot as far as I'm concerned; we can take our lumps and chalk the first adventure up to experience.

- We're a diverse party, and it actually stands to reason that we would have conflicting views on things like disposition of prisoners. True, we've failed to come together as a party, but so would have the original Fellowship without Gandalf there. We need a leader whom everyone willingly defers to.

- I'm happy to try and lead the party, but I will not always be able to be very verbose due to demands on my time. If we want a more vocal leader, it won't bruise my ego a bit - mine or Theogrim's - to step aside for one.

I don't recall any suggestions of torture being offered. :???:
I suspect that the Orc runts will be contentious. Dugar and Celestir come from the school of runts are vermin, exterminate them, the rest seem to range from apathy to strongly against said acts.

I need to hear from the NJ contingent still (Arduine & Armande), but it sounds like we'll head out from Rivendell again with a mage to replace the Hobbit.

It will be over a month later when the party heads out and probably south or at least east this time.

We could try for a short specific mission into Goblin Gate, it is close by and out of the weather.
We could head for Greenwood but south along the Anduin.
We could just head south as an escort to someone.
I am open to suggestions, but heading North is a bad idea now.
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Just to clear things up. WhtWulf is an old friends that lives far from me and I have only seen once in the last 10 years. We are friends from the Navy. Arduine knows him but Armande does not.

Arduine & Armande are local to me in New Jersey and the main part of my Friday night tabletop group.

Glee and Malacandra are in the UK and very major players in the very successful SDMB Middle Earth game that parallels the other two games.

OneCentStamp played for a while on the SDMB but left the SDMB. He is actually resuming his old character.

RoOsh is actually new to the game.

Looking back, I see the mentions of torture came from yourself!

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Originally posted by What Exit?

Sandy, "...At least two of the prisoners are unlikely to recover, we can asks them some questions in a exchange for a quick clean death perhaps. "

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Originally posted by What Exit?

The held goblin answers Mascalin with a question, “What do I get if I tell you? You can’t scare me with your elven torture.”

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(PM from What Exit?) Dwarves can ethically torture orcs and still remain good.

You are right that killing runts will be contentious. :eek:

And you haven't explained whether our party should let Goblin informants go, or simply kill them.

[quote=glee]Looking back, I see the mentions of torture came from yourself!

Quote:

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Originally posted by What Exit?

Sandy, "...At least two of the prisoners are unlikely to recover, we can asks them some questions in a exchange for a quick clean death perhaps. "

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Quote:

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Originally posted by "What Exit?":1oh2170u

The held goblin answers Mascalin with a question, “What do I get if I tell you? You can’t scare me with your elven torture.”

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(PM from What Exit?) Dwarves can ethically torture orcs and still remain good.

You are right that killing runts will be contentious. :eek:

And you haven't explained whether our party should let Goblin informants go, or simply kill them.[/quote:1oh2170u]
Threats and rumors of torture are not the same as actual torture. Remember the lies Saruman told the Dunlanders about what the Rohirrim would do to them. Goblins believe Elves and Dwarves will torture them, only reasonable as Goblins and orc will torture each other willingly.

Unless you have seen a good player torture anything, it is only rumor and the rumor is indeed false. Though then we head into the realm of what is torture. Some would say exposing an orc to sunlight is torture and other would only call it a minor interrogation technique. Dick Cheney claims Water-boarding is not torture and yet it is impossible for me to see it as anything else.

Tying Elven Rope onto Gollum was a torture to him, but the brave Hobbits had no other choice and to most creatures it would not have been a torture. Making me listen to Celine Dion is specifically a torture to me. (No, seriously, it makes me run babbling from the room or punch off the radio.)

I need to see the context on the PM on the Dwarves. I don't recall it.

I am in favor of the failed party approach over the hard reboot myself, as it fits my character quite well. Still hasn't succeeded in his task, so he's continuing to wait for his chance.

That said- yeah, I was always worried about running into children, and just as a player note- I really hope we never have to resort to that sort of a dilemma, my character was designed to have certain moral flaws- and one of them is DIRECTLY in conflict with the attitudes of the group- which is NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND. The fact that he'd rather die than slay one really really worried me considering I really don't want to stand against this group of players too often.
The archers are cowards line was a throwaway, and I suppose just like Sabert, I figured it'd get no contention just a "whatever" sort of line. Didn't expect it to pick up traction the way it did, so mine and sabert's reactions of sticking his foot in his mouth were pretty much on the go. I honestly didn't expect to go down that road- and it did put my guy "off" from the group a bit. Which fits Sabert's personality and past experiences with people. But still, not so fun as a player having to deal with that extra stress, as Normally (from my Mafia playing style) i like to be a very big team player. But I'm always content to let the story speak rather than myself- which means making the choices that I as a player may not like but that my character would do (such as dying to protect youth). I'm not a fan of it myself but if my character would rather be killed off than disagree on that- I'm willing to let him do so.

I guess I'm just trying to find a playing style that works- as I've seen two very different styles in here. And I guess I put myself more into the Glee's non-violent camp since I would probably find it easier to play a morally neutral or evil character than a morally good one. But If i'm playing a good one, I'll try my best to stay on that "good" side- but the games I've read have been the previous ME games on the Dope boards, and Glee's game, where he's a pretty moral guy who keeps the story open for such investigations and side tracking ways to get around problems.

I can play it any which way. I thought we were in more of a "storytelling" campaign than a "wargaming" one, hence my rather direct and foolish approach to a problem that it did not seem we could solve by use of force. But I know differently now, and I've played a good deal more Medieval: Total War than RPGing in recent years, so I'm happy for it to go that way too.

As long as players understand that Sabert is limited as to what he can allow to be done to prisoners and still retain his class and beneficial features, that is. Just as Mellowbeorn has agreed to forego the use of poison while associating with Sabert, so we all have to exercise some restraint over how we treat prisoners; no abuse (not good) and no lying (not lawful). And no, we can't just lead the paladin behind a bush while we're practising our skulduggery - that workaround was being ruled out of court back in about 1981. :lol:

Otherwise, Mellowbeorn sees no reason to mollycoddle goblins, and indeed his great-great-grandfather's approach would just have been "Talk, and I will not skin you until after you are dead". But he will not charm them to have them killed out of hand, especially when he has already planned what to do with them (and knows very well what his spell can and can't do, and for how long, thank you very much). And I'm content not to roleplay what happens to non-combatants and juveniles, just as when I besiege a castle in M: TW I don't need to see the defenders dying of thirst and disease and murdering each other for a handful of food, nor the wholesale rape and pillage that undoubtedly follows the end of the siege, nor do I need to be told more about the fate of unransomed prisoners except "{They} need no longer trouble your thoughts". I'd like us to focus on something a little more heroic.

If OCS is indifferent about the party leadership, I really think we could do worse than trust ourselves to glee, as long as Macsalin is willing to be a little sadder and wiser about this whole "Goblins are people too!" policy. The non-Dopers may not know that glee has not only been playing AD&D as long as the game has existed, but teaches it as part of his paid occupation and may be fairly supposed to know the game system inside out. :cool: And as to his strategic and tactical acumen, you should also remember that he is a Master at chess - and I mean literally an international-class player.

We could view the events of the last few weeks as a big learning experience for several of our characters, and I'd like to see how much better we can do second time out.