Ouchies.....
I go to class and come back to the middle of a battle ground.... O_o
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Ouchies.....
I go to class and come back to the middle of a battle ground.... O_o
Also, I somehow managed to lay hands on myself at 0 life..... As after healing myself for 6, I'm currently at 5hp and not complaining about that. (-_-)
But owies...
Nope, the arrows came in waves, you did the Laying of Hands before the third arrow hit. Now get in and post your first round and second so it made sense that Orcs shots at you.Quote:
Originally posted by RoOsh
I should have done that.
What's Sabert got on him though? is he knocked off his horse? What weapons does he ahve on him? Or is he still on his horse?
He is horsed and lanced to charge through the orcs like he loves best.Quote:
Originally posted by RoOsh
If you have an edit, PM it to me and I can edit it in for you.
Just to emphasise that any apparent animosity in the discussion between Macsalin and Mellowbeorn is entirely motivated by in-character personality clashes. :smile:
Hear, hear. I am thoroughly enjoying being a ruthless, philandering, murderous Pirate in Malacandra's Pirates campaign.
Also it's interesting that he and I are playing a Druid / Bard combination in two What Exit? adventures.
I just expected a different atmosphere in this game where Glorfindel is Macsalin's hero.
Well, we appear to be stuck in the arse-end of nowhere with no-one to turn to for help and any number of undead to get to grips with, to say nothing of orcs and their hangers-on, so "what are we going to use - harsh language?" :lol:
I blame (in order):
- Pr*f*ss*r T*lk**n :eek: (for his excellent depiction of complete Good v endless Evil)
- the Valar (for letting Morgoth run riot)
- Glorfindel (for not arranging the mission better)
I will be sending my resignation to the Tolkien Society forthwith. :sad:
Are Orcs irredeemably evil?
As you know, (if nothing else than because you read Malacandra and I talk about it on the Dope Setup threads) Tolkien struggled with this idea until the end.
Here is how I am playing it, though your characters should not know this.
Orcs are made from corrupted and tortured descendents of Elves bred with the minor spirits of evil or at least sinfulness that Melkor employed. The Elven minds were broken but the bodies still existed due to his very dark sorcery. The Orcs are not Elves but something bred from broken Elves and with only partial spirits. However, later on, Morgoth, Sauron and Sarumen all bred the early broken orcs to enslaved and evil humans. The current breeds at mostly part human to some degree. Oddly only the small orcs, which I commonly refer to as goblin, are the closest to the early first age Orcs.
Orcs can live a long time, especially the weaker goblins but their life is not pleasant. Most orcs will not live that long, many die in childhood, killed by larger orcs. They larger strong orcs are susceptible to most human aging issues like cancers and even heart problems. They can live longer than humans and the ones that do retain the vigor of youth but most will die by some means long before they reach 100.
Their society is brutal, cruel and utterly evil. The larger orc breeds will often eat Humans, Elves and even other orcs and goblins. Not only when in dire need and not for simple ritual. They mostly worship Melkor/Morgoth or Sauron. Again the smaller “goblins” are less likely to worship at all and their shamans come closer to evil druids than clerics.
For redemption, I thought it was already established that orcs can be redeemed but it is not easy and rarely works for the larger breeds. It was almost always the small serially put-upon “goblins” or “snaga” that would reach deals with the Party. These showed the greatest chance of some redemption.
The Dwarves generally don’t go for this concept and few humans. You will find Elves mixed in opinion and Halflings the most likely to support the idea of mercy and redemption. Normally the Wose will kill any and all orcs found. Ghân would be most exceptional in this regard as he is also in being their first Druid.
... :sigh:
I still won't kill goblin children.
But I feel better than about my choice to give them quick deaths.
Thanks to What Exit? for giving us some room to manouvre.
I'll be posting in the main thread, hopefully striking a useful balance.
The way I see it, a Good-aligned character should treat redeemable evil creatures as redeemable, if there is any way to do so; but there is nothing wrong with treating irredeemable evil creatures as what they are, although any good person will do so with the minimum of suffering.
That's fine by me.
P.S. Many thanks for your help with the poem. I never knew how hard it was just to write something basic!
The Paladin only Detects strong Evil and for that matter Very Strong Good. Goblin and Orcs are very unlikely to Detect as Evil. A Know Alignment will tell the exact alignment.
Strong Evil I define as most Undead, Shaman of Morgoth and Sauron, some evil Sorcerers, Necromancers, most Dragons, most Wargs and Werewolves, Evil items, etc.
Evil humans, humanoids, trolls, most orcs are not strong evil.
Very Strong Good would include Elves of the Light like Glorfindel and Clerics like Princess Gilraen in the other game. The Friar would not at this point Detect as Very Strong Good but would Detect as Good. Radagast and Tom Bombadil would not detect simply because they can avoid be detected. Most Elves do not detect as Good but all Paladins do.
Paladins also can Detect Lies at will (a percentage chance) and this ability should be used in questioning.
Jeez, we TRYING to pick a fight here with the Paladin every time or what?
:smack
Come on guys, it's called Tact!
As you know I did like your original roleplaying idea of a naive Paladin with courtly ideas.Quote:
Originally posted by RoOsh
But Sabert is putting the party at risk (with his wordy challenges to Monsters who probably don't speak Common and his waffling when we're trying to decide if interrogating prisoners is correct).
Why didn't Sabert tell use he could Detect Lie?
Why didn't Sabert use his Detect Lie power when we asked the Goblin all those questions?
I assume it's always on. I don't have to "activate it" as I just detect lies.Quote:
Originally posted by glee
That's where I got that interpretation from.Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
All you need to do is let the others know you can do it and be around for the questioning.Quote:
Originally posted by RoOsh
Mmkay, so I don't need to highlight it in blue or anything, just stand around and listen, right?
Mind you, if I Charm a goblin and it comes over all friendly and helpful then either::lol:
- it failed its saving throw and is charmed[/*:2zsv10s6]
- it made its saving throw and is wise enough in the ways of magic to realize what I was doing when I mumbled a few words and waved a sprig of mistletoe about and is a convincing actor and a quick thinker besides[/*:m:2zsv10s6]
It would not hurt to highlight in Blue. The party needs to get use to you being around. Only Theogrim would in theory be use to the fact that you are extremely good at Detecting Lies and none of the players are really use to it at all.Quote:
Originally posted by RoOsh
Correct!Quote:
Originally posted by Malacandra
Okay, I'll try to do that from now on. However, if I'm not there when the action is occurring (in terms of real life), just assume I'm detecting lies all about me :DQuote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
But if I'm around and posting, I will try to post that in blue for future reference.
Hey guys, sorry I've been scarce. I was out sick from work Friday and not on the computer over the weekend really at all.
I think we should move on (and said so in-character, in the thread). I think we'll get murdered in a frontal attack, I don't like the tunnels at all, and I don't see any plausible ploy to get them to come forth, especially since they already know something's afoot.
So we enter the 'Last Chance Saloon' as the Druid is presumably proposing to create a fiery inferno inside the Tower, relying on his Protection from Fire to keep him alive! :cool:
DM, can we have a map of the inside of the Tower? (from the Charmed Goblins)
Just so Mal has somewhere to post his ideas :bump:
Though I had to say... your death was QUITE hilarious when I read it.
If I wasn't a paladin, I would have snickered at that.
"Take me to your leader"
"Okay"
ARROWED! :gurgle gurgle:
Everyone else: "Hmmm... that's a good point, we never really considered HOW he'd get to the tower, did we?"
Sabert: "COWARDS!"
Mallowbeorn's not dead yet.
And he was heading for the Tower accompanied by a Goblin resident.
Remember Sabert was going to stand outside and issue a challenge...
Yes to all the above - it at least seemed worth a try, or at any rate better than sitting around for another week or two real time waiting for the mighty armoured warriors to get around to growing a set between them. Now more than half your healing, almost all your offensive magic, your best source of antivenom and the keeper of a fairly macho fighting animal is bleeding away on the rocks, hoping amid the haze of pain that the Friar will oblige with a cure and it's not going to be left to the charmed goblin to rummage around for anything on Mellowbeorn's person that it might be useful to feed him.
It's always been a running gag in "Knights of the Dinner Table" that the PCs burn down any creature they have a clear shot at, whether it seems to want to talk or not. I guess I'd better take a leaf out of their book in future and to hell with getting creative.
Sorry, but these are elite orcs. They are the elite of the Uruk-Hai. These are also orcs on a dangerous mission in a dangerous situation that showed every sign of being extra paranoid in the preperations. You had only two chances, either lure them out or leave them be.Quote:
Originally posted by Malacandra
Please look for a PM.
Well to be fair to the planners, we did find out:Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
- how many defenders were left (and who they were)
- where the exits were
- that reinforcements were expected
- that the defenders were planning to sit tight
We came up with several ideas to lure them out (none seemed plausible), but if these guys are going to instantly open fire on an unarmed man accompanied by an armed defender, it's hard to see anything that would tempt them out.
P.S. Could the Charmed Goblin have warned Mellowbeorn that the Orcs would shoot to kill?
The Charmed Goblin was not sure. He said as much.Quote:
Originally posted by glee
The game is waiting on your character at the door for a decision.
Hey... hey... he said he'd stand OUTSIDE their range.... Of course that may have meant finding some way to determine their range, but still.... Also, we could have sent the charmed orc in with the challenge. Heh.Quote:
Originally posted by glee
Sabert's plan was not that foolish as to just stand around and get shot while waiting for them to respond. :smack
*Though now he finds himself having just RAN up to the Gates of the Castle, so he's not much for the better I suppose. :dub:
Though... I still love that image of the Goblin just staring confusedly at this new found "friend" laying there on the ground dying, just curious "Why they hurt friend?" :???:
And who's controlling that bear now?
Can I clarify the situation in my mind?
Were the two Hunter Killers were lying outside the Tower (presumably behind rubble)? Must they reveal themselves to shoot?
How far away is the remaining Hunter Killer?
There have been no missiles fired by any other Orcs?
Mallowbeorn is just inside the Wall circling the Tower?
As long as Mallowbeorn is alive, his Goblin companion is Charmed?
The Bear is heading for the Beorning.
The Thief appears foiled by the door or at least the potential bolts coming out of it and into him.
Do the Warriors have any ideas except to wait for the Dwarf?
The HKs were on top of the tower but one is dead. They did reveal themselves to shoot which is why one is dead and the big one is injured.Quote:
Can I clarify the situation in my mind?
Were the two Hunter Killers were lying outside the Tower (presumably behind rubble)? Must they reveal themselves to shoot?
How far away is the remaining Hunter Killer?
There have been no missiles fired by any other Orcs?
Mallowbeorn is just inside the Wall circling the Tower?
As long as Mallowbeorn is alive, his Goblin companion is Charmed?
He is on top of the Tower. He can shoot Mascalin at least if he is up against the wall of the Tower.
No other Orcs have down anything yet.
Mellow was just inside the wall, where the gate use to be. The goblin dragged him behind the rubble of the wall though back outside.
The Goblin appears to be charmed. You are not sure if it ends if Mellow is dead.
(nemmind. More later.)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glee
OK, so Macsalin is looking up ready to fire in case the Hunter Killer looks over and fires down. Presumably though, if he does attack this way the Hunter Killer would have to expose himself to Celestir and Sandy?Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
Once Dugar arrives, will the three Warriors be enough to protect Macsalin picking the lock from attacks through the holes?
If Mellowbeorn is now behind the wall, does that mean the Friar can reach him (to cure him)?
If the HK leans out enough to see Mascalin, he will be open to shots by all 3 of the archers.
Even when Dugar arrives, you won't be protected for Orcs on the ground flow trying to get you.
The Friar is trying to reach him and following the bulk of Little Bear to do so.
I'm waiting to see in either Knight is doing anything before Dugar arrives.
Sez the DM, in PM:
Let's air this one in public, Jim.Quote:
Malacandra, I am really sorry. The two hits not only dropped you but put you to -10 with fails vs. Death poison on top of it. You also did not mention at any point to anyone in the party that you were carrying Sweet Water from what I recall. Your AC effectively meant they would hit unless I rolled 1s.
You know I am not a killer DM. In fact Glee complained in the Dope Game I am too soft. This situation was just impossible and you really misread it I am afraid.
Would you like to continue playing with a new character? I can't provide any miracles this time.
Scouting meant scouting. The party is low level and low powered and it was quite the accomplishment to do what the party had already done at their low level.
Well, crap. I guess I'm guilty of having let the SDMB campaign colour my expectations, since in that one we could go around doing stuff and nobody seemed to be in danger of dying suddenly, whereas in this one we've had, what? - three trolls bounce us at night, they're on us with about a round's warning and we get to watch in admiration as the NPCs take care of it; we chat to the local wildlife; we hit a small group of goblins by night; we attack another group and it's thank you and goodnight from me. Oh, after we've spent many days of playing time forming and discarding one plan after another, which was a less than stellar role-playing experience from my end of things and perhaps contributed to my impulsiveness.
Perhaps I am also guilty of having relied too much on "plot armour" and figured that as long as I was contributing positively to the story then things would work out more or less OK. Now I wasn't looking for any guarantees that this encounter was going to end in the amusing spectacle I was planning, involving smoke, flames, orcs running around screaming chased by a crazy druid who had set himself on fire and the party profiting amid the confusion, but between us, I still think that's a more entertaining way to script it than "They just shoot you. They hit you twice. You're on -10 hit points and poisoned as well." It's almost embarrassing to detail the possible ways you could have handled this so that Mellowbeorn, if not triumphing, ended up sadder, wiser but alive. Instead, you have decided that it's more important for him to go for the dirt nap.
I say "you have decided" quite advisedly, for as DM you are the sole arbiter of fact in your campaign. The dice are not. Don't give me that "really sorry" routine, because you are the one who decided it was necessary that the dreaded elite Hunter-Killers should shoot an unarmed, unarmoured, escorted, harmless-seeming putative prisoner (a decision I am courteously assuming had nothing to do with the DM's knowledge of my intentions if once I made it into the tower) without even a yell or two at the escort to demand what the $#17 he thought he was doing, you are the one who decided that they should hit twice before I had a chance to react, you are the one who decided you absolutely had to abide by your rolls for damage and save vs. poison... and indeed you are the one who set up the encounter in the first place. Well, I guess the rest of the party know to take the campaign seriously now, but to be blunt I acutely resent being made the object lesson.
Something I really thought you would have learned in, what? thirty years of D&D is that players who are willing to invest time and trouble in creating believable, enjoyable characters - the kind who will learn a difficult verse form simply in order to have their bard write a poem in it - and who have the integrity to tell the DM that his ruling on, say, Charm Person is too favourable to the players, are a lot harder to come by than elite Uruk-Hai with 18(00) Strength, bows to match and a supply of lethal poison: any DM has an infinite supply of the latter if he likes.
No, I don't intend to spend time creating another character, complete with genealogy, history, attitudes, motivations, a sense of his place in Middle-Earth, and hopes and aspirations for the future which may have nothing whatever to do with power, influence, wealth or fame. You have chosen loyalty to your monsters and adherence to the game mechanics over such considerations. You pays your money...
Wow, I am sorry Malacandra. Two players advised leaving this be. I tried to stress the danger of this situation. I thought the kill zone without any real cover around the tower was a strong clue.
I'm really sad you'll be leaving the game. There was no plot armor yet. That happens often when players go against the plot. This group is not that strong. Another wrong move or unlucky rolls will result in more deaths.
This encounter was never meant to happen. As to the dice rolls, you were nearly impossible to miss. You were not an object lesson but the sad results of my not wanting to complete destroy the integrity of the game from this early.
The first battle was indeed about letting the party work safely together to kill one troll. The first real battle still nearly failed do to poor coordination of attacks. For everything that went right in the other campaign, this one is not going well at all.
Was I really suppose to have the Goblin say? "Don't go, the Captain is a rat bastard and will shoot you immediately."
I guess I should have. This was too weak obviously:
I have killed so few PCs as a ref that your is one of the very few. I really felt I was left no choice. The HKs have great reason to be paranoid. They set up everything to be paranoid.Quote:
The goblin replies to Mellowbeorn, "I think so but I am not sure."
I tried in a small variety of ways to avoid this. If I tried harder, would I have been a good ref?
Thank you for playing Malacandra, I really am sorry you won't continue.
Everyone else, I'm sorry for the pace of this game and the results.
I might not post again today. I have to leave early to put my cat asleep that I have had for 17 years and I feel like complete shit at this point. Arduine, Armande and Whtwulf all know her. Velcro is in terrible shape and we can't wait any longer.
Im sorry james, i love that cat since shes been a baby, tell her good by for me, and we id try and tell you NOT to go in this place it was beyond our skills at time, i also advise the part they were elite skilled orcs, and archers, and would kill you not talk. James in all the years i have gamed with him over 30 years, as he said he gives the players all the chances he can, and dosent go out to kill them, but you had many warnings, even the party leader decided to leave this be, and you went on to the tower, so no balming him.
Very sorry to hear about the cat, Jim. If you remember my "Eulogy" thread from October before last, you'll know I'm no stranger to this particular grief.
Out of respect, I'll not continue with the argument for now. Let me know when you're back and recovered.
I also am sorry to hear about Vecro Jim, may Velcro go to a far better place with lots of Beckys', sting and dice to play with.
Gordon
Interlude:
The Hobbit (first draft)
The Hobbit (revised draft)Quote:
DM: The noise outside has died down. Everything seems quiet. Thorin is admiring the golden cup you brought back yesterday.
Bilbo: OK, time for another look. I'll go down the tunnel. If it looks like Smaug is still there, I'll put the Ring on and go invisible.
DM: You can see the cavern ahead. It seems to be lit like yesterday, with Smaug's own glow.
Bilbo: On with the Ring, and moving silently.
DM: Yes, you are confident your feet are making no noise.
Bilbo: Edge down to the cavern and peep in.
DM: Smaug looks asleep on his mound of treasure.
Bilbo: Watch for a minute or two.
DM: You see a gleam under one eyelid. He is only pretending to be asleep! His head turns towards you and his jaws open. Make a saving throw.
Bilbo: But I'm invisible and silent!
DM: Dragons have an excellent sense of smell and his hearing is probably good enough to hear your breathing and the disturbance you make as you walk through the air. He only has to put a 30' wide breath weapon in the right ballpark. You get +4 on your saving throw for invisibility.
Bilbo: And +3 for my 17 dex is... a 21.
DM: Makes easily. You take 176 points of fire damage.
Bilbo: WTF?
DM: Smaug is much tougher than the dragons in the Monster Manual. Remember, he cleaned out this entire fortress a couple of hundred years ago.
Bilbo: ...So I'm on minus 151.
DM: You make a system shock check for taking so much damage in one go. Your CON is 13... Failed.
Bilbo: So I'm dead of system shock as well as being a small pile of ash.
DM: Sting is vapourised in Smaug's terrible fire blast. But the Ring rolls out of the conflagration with not a mark on it.
Bilbo: ...And I care because...?
DM: Sorry. Smaug was really paranoid because he had some treasure stolen yesterday (by you, although he didn't know that). The treasure's all he cares about.
Bilbo: But he wasn't paranoid enough to want to know who I was or where I was from?
DM: Even if it wasn't you who stole the cup, Smaug knows he hasn't a friend within a thousand miles of here.
Bilbo: That is a very specific level of paranoid.
DM: I'm really sorry. The dwarves told you Smaug was dangerous right back in Hobbiton.
Quote:
DM: The noise outside has died down. Everything seems quiet. Thorin is admiring the golden cup you brought back yesterday.
Bilbo: OK, time for another look. I'll go down the tunnel. If it looks like Smaug is still there, I'll put the Ring on and go invisible.
DM: You can see the cavern ahead. It seems to be lit like yesterday, with Smaug's own glow.
Bilbo: On with the Ring, and moving silently.
DM: Yes, you are confident your feet are making no noise.
Bilbo: Edge down to the cavern and peep in.
DM: Smaug looks asleep on his mound of treasure.
Bilbo: Watch for a minute or two.
DM: You see a gleam under one eyelid. He is only pretending to be asleep! His head turns towards you and his jaws open.
Bilbo: But I'm invisible and silent!
DM: Dragons have an excellent sense of smell and his hearing is probably good enough to hear your breathing and the disturbance you make as you walk through the air.
Bilbo: Oh crap. I'm dead the moment he wants me to be.
DM: Smaug says "Hello, thief! Come for some treasure? I have plenty!"
Bilbo: Nuh-uh! I say "Thank you, but I didn't come for presents. You're the most famous dragon in the world, and I wanted to see if the stories are true!"
DM: He laughs. "Silver tongued liar! And who may you be?"
Bilbo: Uhh... I don't want him to know, but I don't want to annoy him. I'll give him a load of double-talk, about where I've been and what I've done, but nothing too plain and with no names mentioned.
DM: He gives you a very evil look, as though to say "You think you can match wits with me?", and you get the idea he's worked out a good deal more than you meant him to.
Bilbo: Ouchie. Time for some more flattery, laid on thick.
DM: He likes that! He boasts about how strong he is, and shows off his coat of armour - dragon-scales above, gems below where he's been lying on the treasure for centuries. But, just where it's hard for him to see, there's a patch the size of your hand, near his heart, with no armour at all.
Bilbo: I still have Sting, don't I?
DM: I'd need to see a lot of natural 20s if you're going to go that route. /hint
Bilbo: Um, no. All right. I say "Oh, look at me, selfishly keeping you awake. I'm sorry, I ought to go. Bye!"
DM: He actually seems taken by surprise for a moment - as though he thought you were well under his spell. But he dashes over to the tunnel...
Bilbo: Oh crap!
DM: However, he's so huge he can only get his nostrils into the tunnel, and snorts a whiff of flame after you, to teach you some manners. Saving throw?
Bilbo: Net 18, 5th level thief.
DM: Probably a good time to save. You take 17 damage and stumble on, half-blinded by the smoke from your smouldering toe-hairs.
Bilbo: Phew!
Malacandra, I am back and in better shape today. Sorry about that.
I do wish for two things, that you reconsider and that you kept this to PMs. If I knew you were already this attached to Mellowbeorn I still have a little wiggle room. Ask Armande about Beornings near deaths. If Glee is OK with it, I can still execute an escape for Mellowbeorn though it will end the mission abruptly and cause a rapid retreat to Rivendell.
So far players are being cautious and I think the party will escape with no more deaths.
Please let me know here or by PM.
I will admit to never expecting this reaction. It is ironic as I am about as far from a killer DM as there has ever been. I really thought I gave the party every reason to move on and it looked like all had agreed. I am sorry I did not use the Goblin to more strongly scare you off the plan. Even if you made it into the tower though, you were dead as dead could be, you just might have taken a few with you instead.
I really do have an in game way to save the Druid, please let me know. I don't mind of the other player don't.
Good to see you back, Jim, and while I am sorry for your cat, I do know from experience that the worst is over now and the pain will be lessening already.
I will happily take this back to PM but not right now - I am extremely tired. I would like to say to the room though that I did not start this spat with the intention of publicly embarrassing Jim into a face-losing climbdown; and that I, for one, am quite capable of violently disagreeing with someone while simultaneously liking and respecting them. I accept that this sometimes makes me hard to take. :cool:
Speaking as one of the guys now currently TRAPPED basically inside of the tower where we should have not have even gone into in the first place- It's been really tense reading these posts back and forth on how TERRIBLE of an idea it was to try to take on these orcs and the tower. Good to see now though we've entered the lion's den how BAD and TERRIBLE of a dire situation we're in....
Good times.
Though I guess I will say- WhatExit Did try to encourage me via PM to try to go w/ the luring the orcs out of the Tower approach vs. the head on approach. It's one reason Sabert has been waay more forceful about trying to find a method of getting them OUT of the Tower rather than going to the Tower- but I wasn't sure how to come right out and say that "GUYS, I THINK THE DM WANTS US NOT TO RUSH IN BUT TO LURE THEM OUT" would be kosher or not. But yeah- I was trying the best I could to convince you guys to do the lure thing, only because I got a PM saying "try convincing them of that plan more"- so WhatExit WAS trying to subtly push us away from rushing at the tower, but I guess I wasn't that good at matching logic vs. Glee and the others- who were incidentally correct in their assumption that the Tower Orcs WOULD be really paranoid and wouldn't fall for it.
So I ask ya, WhatExit, after the facts- would the Lure strategy have worked or would it have been Sabert basically taking two to the chest if we had tried to get them out of there?
No need to apologise. You had really important things to do and I hope all went as well as it possibly could.Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
It is most courteous of you to mention me in this way.Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
I'd like to say a few things and I really hope they help everyone.
1. Both you and Malacandra are great to roleplay with. I really hope we can sort this out to everyone's satisfaction.
2. It's much trickier to roleplay on the Internet, where you have no personal contact and cannot 'sense' the atmosphere.
3. I think this situation is a clear example of two different ways of roleplaying:
- What Exit?, you like to run a dungeon where the DM has the whole storyline clearly mapped out. There is a fully detailed, well-researched backgound. NPCs will play a crucial role and generally direct the action.
The emphasis is on the story and players will have a clear, single path to follow at all times. The adventure is about discovering what the DM has planned for the players - with legendary Heroes and Artifacts (e.g. Glorfindel and Sting) turning up. (Players need to listen carefully to the NPCs because any 'deviation' from this storyline will cause difficulties.)
Clearly this works and you are very good at it, because you have players who have stayed with you for 30 years!
- I like to run dungeons where the players make choices and thus can alter the storyline. There is a framework with some set encounters, but the NPCs are only there to offer information or choices.
The emphasis is on the characters and the adventure is about seeing what ideas the players can come up with. The DM has to be ready to respond, sometimes by making things up on the spot! :eek: The players need to know exactly what their characters can do (and keep each other posted about each other's abilities.) They also need a lot of information (typically from questioning prisoners, animals or locals), so they can make decisions what to do next.
This approach also works, as my group has been together for 30 years (and I've run School groups for 20 years.)
However you can see how the two approaches don't work well together.
If the DM is making it clear (through the NPCs) what the party should do next, then a 'creative' player will find it difficult to get his ideas accepted.
Similarly, if the DM is leaving all the planning to the players, a 'storyline' player will be puzzled as to what is expected of him.
I think there was a 'clash of cultures' in this adventure, because What Exit's? regular players were briskly moving on, following Glorfindel or Sandy's advice. They didn't need to interrogate evil prisoners, for example.
Malacandra and I were constantly looking to find things out (even from Goblins) so we could decide what to do next.
When we got to the Tower, the difference in the two styles really showed up. For example, my character ran through (and discarded) several wild interesting ideas:
- 'claim we've got a message for the Orcs'
- 'pretend we've been captured by the Goblins'
- 'have a Dancing Bear act turn up to entertain the Orcs'
- 'offer to check the Orc's security for them'.
I'm not suggesting any of these would work, but it does show how I roleplay.
4. I think we should sort out what sort of adventure it's going to be from now on (of course the DM has the final word, because he does all the work!)
5. It's perfectly reasonable for any DM to make 'adjustments'. After all the game is about having fun, not satisfying some international regulations. Depending on what everyone else thinks, I would be happy, for example, with ideas like:
- Mellowbeorn to escape and the party to flee
- Mellowbeorn to be captured by the Tower mob and the party then launching a rescue mission
- Mellowbeorn to be saved from death by the Goblin (stops the bleeding) and the Friar (pours a Sweet Water potion down Mellowbeorn's throat)
- the whole Tower combat turning out to be a vision sent to Theogrim* (so we go back to that fateful morning and decide what to do next)
*I got this idea from the TV show Dallas! :wink:
6. If you've read this far, thank you. :smile:
1) RoOsh, The idea of luring out the orcs was much harder than I thought as I mis-remembered what charm allowed. I think there still might of been a way to do this but not as simple as I thought by a long shot and retreat was probably safest.
2) The HK were never going to negotiate and are extremely paranoid about the damn Elves and Rangers that are harassing them year after year. Even if I allowed Mellowbeorn to reach the tower, he would have never left it. He dropped past -10 technically for the first two arrows which had effectively a 95% of hitting. He also technically failed both saves. The dodge to keep him alive is where we say between the first and second arrow he starts transforming into a bear but looses his human shape for an extended time and might still day without major medical help. (Rivendell or the King or some such.)
3) Glee, you would be surprised how often the party on the Dope directed where the adventure went. I never expected the group to work with the snaga and that led to a far greater victory than strength of arms could have. Elendil's Heir turned a helpful NPC into a major plot device. I mostly go with the flow while gently pushing the party into a situation of a grander quest.
4) I had this storyline mapped out but Malacandra circumvented part of it by using Mr. Fox to get excellent intel on the Orcs. I then had to think about how they supplied themselves with food and realized where their paranoia would play into your hands.
5) Nuh-Uh and Ugh! to the Dallas solution.