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This wasn't funny, and I don't need to lighten up or unbunch my panties or grow a sense of humour. The Powers That Be here need to understand why people are saying this wasn't funny - this was a mis-step that is going to have lasting repercussions (like destroying trust). We are supposed to be running on the honour system here, and I just lost all my faith in The Powers That Be here - how could you not have known that this was a bad idea?
And Q.E.D. is still acting like a moderator.
I like you, Featherlou, and I hope you don't get mad and leave.Quote:
Originally posted by featherlou
Most people are not that upset about this, though, and frankly, however angry you are at Tuba and Zotti and Bodoni, there was nothing outrageous about what the mods here did. There just isn't. It's actually a pretty old joke, in fact. You don't have to think it was funny, but it's not legitimate to claim that it was a violation of trust or whatever. And it's not going to somehow benefit this place to force everyone to accommodate the extraordinarily delicate sensibilities of some tiny percentage of posters -- that just ruins the place for everyone else.
Taking the place way too seriously is one of the things that ruined the SDMB. I don't think it's a healthy attitude on a personal level either. This is a great opportunity to decide we don't have to make that mistake again.
I think it is legitimate to say that it was a violation of trust. Maybe not for you, but for some. We, as posters, have a certain trust that what we see represented in the threads and posts of this board are legitimate to a certain degree - especially in forums like the Crucible. When we are misled, then a certain amount of that trust goes out the window.Quote:
Originally posted by Excalibre
It's also not going to benefit this place to force everyone to go along with being run over roughshod by silly pranks -- that just ruins the place for everyone else. ;)
I don't disagree with you about that, but on the other extreme - having a board which is a free-for-all ... isn't what I want either.Quote:
Taking the place way too seriously is one of the things that ruined the SDMB. I don't think it's a healthy attitude on a personal level either. This is a great opportunity to decide we don't have to make that mistake again.
How about some middle ground? :)
I can't even see where "trust" comes into anything. It's a message board. I don't "trust" the guy who runs it, because I don't actually know him. I only even vaguely recognize his SDMB handle. I don't have to "trust" him, beyond trusting him not to maliciously hand out my email address to spammers or something. Why would I care about "trusting" him?
These people aren't your freaking family, you guys. We're just users on a message board, theoretically just sort of here to have fun when we're bored. This place is not supposed to be a replacement for family and friends. It's nice that we all know each other and in many cases have for years, but it's not family. You don't have to "trust" people to hang out on the internet with them. You don't have some legitimate claim to hold them up to some "standard" like that. You don't have some right to "trust" Ed Zotti not to act like a dick, you don't have some right to "trust" Crispy to keep this place open if he decides it's a burden, and you definitely don't have any right to "trust" the staff not to goof around for a couple hours.
I'm sorry, but if watching mommy and daddy pretend to fight for two hours is that upsetting, that means you need to reconsider the amount of emotion you're investing in this place. It's a nice little community, but it's not a family.
Exy, I understand that this is your take on the matter. I'm OK with that, I understand your position. I'm just saying that it's not that way for everyone, and I wish you'd acknowledge that. It looks like we'll never agree. I'm OK with that too.
I understand perfectly well that there are some users who really feel this is a huge, devastating issue. What you seem to be missing is they should not feel that way. People can feel all sorts of ways about all sorts of things. But there's, well, there's something wrong with you if you find it so upsetting to see people you don't even know pretending to have a fight for a couple hours. That's just not how you should feel about things. And, I reiterate, it's not doing those people any favors to indulge them, either.Quote:
Originally posted by NinetyWt
Lib, why are you making shit up about me? Are you really going to use this little prank to lie and score points?Quote:
Originally posted by Liberal
I'll acknowledge it. Some people are upset. Will you acknowledge that some are amused? It is, after all, April 1st. Anytime you run into something that seems other-worldly and bizarre on or moments before April 1st, you should think first of April Fool.Quote:
Originally posted by NinetyWt
First off, the fuckery didn't happen on April Fool's day; it happened the day before April Fool's day. You can split GMT hairs all you want, but the majority of poster were still on March 31st. Second, I'll thank everyone to not tell me what I can and can't feel. In my opinion, the people who perpetrated this prank showed bad judgement, and these are the people who are expected to use their judgement to make this board a good place to hang out.
Sweetie. You know you're my favorite, right? Good. Well here it is: It's not a free-for-all. It's once a year. One day on which pranks are pretty much expected everywhere. News organizations make up fake stories. Google publishes bizarre research results with a straight face. In 1992, National Public Fucking Radio did a story where they claimed Richard Nixon was running for president again. Did they violate your trust? No, they participated in a well-established tradition of people fucking with each other.Quote:
Originally posted by NinetyWt
Yes, I propose the following middle ground: most of the year, the staff should not prank you. And we should synchronize our clocks a little better to avoid starting April Fool's day a couple hours early.Quote:
How about some middle ground? :)
You do realize that the guy who started the board's timezone is GMT, right? And so are many of the people who were in on planning this? That isn't "splitting GMT hairs." GMT is not some sort of esoteric concept or nerd technicality: people actually set their clocks to it. I would have preferred the prank to start, oh, around 9am PST on April 1, but I am burdened with the knowledge that the world does not revolve around me.Quote:
Originally posted by featherlou
'course not, silly. It revolves around ME!Quote:
Originally posted by McNutty
Thank you for being the arbiter of appropriate emotions. Perhaps you have a handbook or cheat sheet available so I don't get it wrong again next time?Quote:
Originally posted by Excalibre
You can just ask me, I live to help others. :)Quote:
Originally posted by Fiveroptic
Right, I was talking about extremes in that post. One prank does not equal an everyday thing, of course not.Quote:
Originally posted by McNutty
Sounds good to me. I really do think that folks would have been less confused about what was going on, although you are right that it was already the 1st in some places.Quote:
Yes, I propose the following middle ground: most of the year, the staff should not prank you. And we should synchronize our clocks a little better to avoid starting April Fool's day a couple hours early.
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes!Quote:
Originally posted by Liberal
Okay, I can get on board with part of this. Since we're not talking about something easily quantified here, there is obviously some kind of continuum of how people percieve message boards (or other similar social sites). On the one extreme we have folks who are totally wrapped up in it, per your example. And that is unhealthy or dysfunctional or whatever. Just plain stupid maybe.Quote:
Originally posted by Excalibre
I don't like to say "shouldn't feel that way" because feelings can't be helped, they just "are". It's a person's behaviour which can be changed. I don't mind saying that people shouldn't react as if their whole world is crashing down because of a kerfuffle on a message board, I agree with you there.
People who fall more towards the center of that continuum will have some lesser emotional investment in what happens on a message board than our hypothetical extremist, and might be irritated or feel some other negative emotion about a kerfuffle (not necessarily that it was a huge, devastating thing). I think that's OK.
Quote:
Originally posted by Excalibre
No. You cannot tell anyone else what they should or should not feel. I understand you don't agree with those feelings and even disapprove of them. That's YOU. I am not all worked up about this prank, but when I first saw it (or bits of it--I never did see the whole thing), my first thought was "oh shit--this can't even last a month?" You can say what you like about message boards and the internet, but it comes down (in the end) to people. People who have expectations and who join a community in good faith. When that faith is messed with, there is fallout. I'm not taking my toys and going home because I'm not. But I can understand if to someone else, this prank was the last straw. Whether we're pixels on a screen or live bodies in a coffee shop, people want a place they can come and talk and share. That's all this is. Fuck with that too much and you lose people.
And when you then saw it was a joke, why didn't you just go phew?Quote:
Originally posted by eleanorigby
Can we just say that while some people enjoyed it, others for legit reason did not? The last thing I expected when I suggested the idea of this joke was that people would get this upset over it. I was ignorant not to think about that. We should have stuck to the other options. As I expected after the fallout last night there are users beside Oakminster leaving.
If people are upset by this, telling them they shouldn't be doesn't really help. I know what you're saying Excalibre but I do want to keep the posters around so could you please leave them be. We went through once before a long time ago, but some of the posters departing or thinking of departing really are very good posters. Even if you dislike Oakminster, it is not just him. Continuing to argue with others might push some posters to a decision I hope they do not make.
1) We did start this too early, that was a blow to the plan.
2) It moved too quickly. I thought a little would happen last night and then a lot more this morning.
3) GMT time was not a dodge, CRSP is on GMT, as are several Mods.
4) I never took into account that this would come off as a betrayal of trust. I do understand the idea of trusting others on the board. I do so myself. But I am still vague on why this prank was a betrayal of trust. If anyone can make me understand this, I would appreciate it.
All I can do is apologize for myself and hope everyone upset will move on to other threads and please forgive the Mods for this attempt at a joke. I don’t ask you to forget but I hope you can forgive. I really am sorry.
Apparently our joke was too Andy Kaufmann like for our own good. I am glad many enjoyed it but I at least deeply regret suggesting it.
Jim (I probably said too much, but I have to try at least.)
Maybe it's just me, but the suggestion that anyone around here is in a position to be informing anyone else what they should or should not feel and whether or not those responses speak to some sort of psychological definciency strikes me as a level of arrogant assholishness way above and beyond the call of duty. Perhaps a discussion of the April Fool's prank might be better served without people telling each other what emotional responses are or are not acceptable? The success or failure of any prank is intrinsically tied to whether or not people thought it was funny -- a significant number of people seem to be saying very clearly that they thought this was not funny. I'd therefore call this a failure. Having the peanut gallery yelling, "hey, lighten up" to those who did not see the humour just makes the peanut gallery look like dicks and does nothing to move the discussion forward. YMMV.
P.S. A mod thinking that it is okay to reveal any level of private information is a Very Bad Thing. People send private messages on the assumption that that information will remain private. People set themselves to invisible on the assumption that they will be invisible. Disrespecting those boundaries, no matter how trivial the transgression, is, at best, setting a dangerous precedent and, at worst, a complete breach of the trust given to the people in positions of power around these parts. Frankly, I'm a lot less offended by the prank and a lot more offended that a mod thinks group privacy is not something worth respecting.
Let me give you an analogy so some of you might understand better - as an April Fool's Day prank, your boss fires you. You go home, have a screaming fight with your wife, she kicks you out, and your marriage is in serious trouble. Your boss calls the next day to tell you it was just a joke. Ha ha, right? Phew, it was just a joke - my wife will understand and it will be as if it never happened. Except as adults we know that bells can't be un-rung, and you just have to watch your step sometimes because there are no take-backs.
This stupid prank isn't the end of the world, but the bad judgement shown has lost a lot of credibility for the people involved in it for me. They didn't realize how the prank would affect people who are here because of actions very similar to the tricks played on us yesterday, and they didn't anticipate how it would affect their credibility in the future.
How did this prank affect people? What bells have been rung? That's what I'm not getting.
I most certainly can. In fact, I did.Quote:
Originally posted by eleanorigby
Anyone can feel anything at all. What you're missing is that the fact that I feel something doesn't mean it's incumbent upon you to give in to my whims in order to mollify me.
Right. That's a perfect analogy, because it involves things that are actually terrifying. You'd be absolutely right to be mad if your boss fake-fired you for April Fool's. But, uh, this place is not your fucking boss and it's certainly not your fucking marriage. This is a great illustration of exactly why all the people who are agonizing over something so trivial need to suck it up. Either it's a desperate ploy for attention, or else it's a sign that you're really screwed up.Quote:
Originally posted by featherlou
All these references to "trust" and "credibility" and things that should not come into play on a message board are just illustrations of some people's total lack of perspective.
It's not about what's "acceptable", it's about what everyone else is obligated to accommodate. I'm not obligated to indulge someone's melodramatic whining over something completely trivial. You can say I'm insensitive if you like. I say it sucks to be in a community where everyone has to walk on eggshells to avoid causing the most minimal, momentary emotional distress to everyone else, because it means you can't fucking talk about anything. And you know, I know some of you people have bitched about the tendency, on the SDMB, for every thread mentioning fat people to turn into an 8-page sobfest in which fatty after fatty whined about how mean it was to not be "sensitive" to their needs. Same exact thing here. The more we focus on making sure absolutely everyone is "sensitive", the less we can say. It's an oppressive atmosphere and I, for one, am doing my part to discourage continuing in that direction.Quote:
Originally posted by dread pirate jimbo
He's not a Mod and CRSP has specifically told him to no longer do such. If I or Q.E.D. or any other Mod does anything you think is wrong, PM the post in question to CRSP. If you don't mind the Mod in question seeing the report, just hit Report this post and explain the problem. Q.E.D. is a Tech with Admin rights. He is the primary or at least #2 coder for Domebo and has Admin rights to test, make needed changes and move posters to Room 101 as needed as the request of the Moderators.Quote:
Originally posted by dread pirate jimbo
To clarify further I am a Mod that has Admin rights as the #3 coder. McNutty is neither a Mod nor Admin and has nothing to do with the Mod and Admin operation of the board but does keep the board and database tuned and going and fixes mistakes like one I made last week applying a new modification.
The rest of the Mods are Moderators. Each of us have a Forum and cover ADF. The Global Moderators danceswithcats & sublight cover all forums and part of their job is to let the rest of know if we are going to far.
This is also the job of every member that cares to help. Let us know by post if it won't derail the thread, or PM or Report if you think we are screwing up. We're human and still new to the job. If you don't want to confront us or feel we'll ignore you or give you a hard time, PM the post and your concern to CRSP.
I hope this somehow helps.
I'm generally on the same side as you in this discussion, but this I disagree with. There is definitely trust and credibility here, a message board is a social thing to me, and if what had happened had actually mattered I'd be pissed too. But it didn't.Quote:
Originally posted by Excalibre
My analogy was an illustration of how an April Fool's Day prank can have consequences that can't be undone even after the pranking person says, "Gotcha!" My point is that you have to think of consequences before you pull a prank; apologizing after the fact doesn't undo everything that happened as a result of your prank. And yes, trust and credibility do indeed come into play on a message board if you're doing it right.Quote:
Originally posted by Excalibre
I doubt that I can analyze it to any effective degree. I read a Thunderdome thread about "whoa, what was that thread that was just deleted?" and found out that Winston had (apparently) imploded in some way. I never could find the thread in question, so all I could go by were the comments by other posters-most of which were obscure.
There was a reference to the Mafia thread (I find that game incredibly confusing so I didn't even try to go there to figure things out). I jumped from thread to thread in T-Dome and "About domebo", trying to glean WTF was going on. I did discover it was joke--whatever "it" was. I kind of rolled my eyes, but I did feel relief--mostly because I have (finally) adjusted to being spread over 3 boards and I didn't want to go through all the shit and drama again.
What you don't realize (or maybe you do) is that on a message board, even if you're a bit player or an extra or even just an audience member for the Drama of the Day, it still affects you. You see people whom you like or respect or both (or can't stand and have contempt for, whatever) hurling insults and contentious displays of ill humor etc. Sometimes it's fun as hell, but mostly it's wearying. Having just been there, done that, got the fucking Tshirt, I'd say that for most of us, our capacity for Drama is smaller than usual. Add to that this being a new board, with it's "personality" still being formed and you have some gun-shy people.
What I don't understand is how this isn't obvious. I think those who have gone over it and say it all happened too quickly are correct. It happened so quickly that most people here never saw the whole thing and still don't have a complete picture of what the joke all entailed. It's like coming in on the last few words of the punchline of a long joke. You don't get quite why lots of people are laughing and you tend to think the joke couldn't have been all that funny--especially when no one can replay it for you or describe it in detail (no, really, I don't want to know--I'm just saying). And while I also understand that some mods and CRSP is on GMT, their main "audience" is not. Perhaps an American mod could have been roped in to plant this at a slightly different time frame? I hate to be America-centric, but this won't play in Peoria if Peoria can't even read the damned joke parts.
I agree with all of the above, but I still don't understand how the prank we're discussing had such consequences or how it violated trust or credibility.Quote:
Originally posted by featherlou
Excuse me. No, you CANNOT. Of course, you can say what you like and tell people what not to feel all you want. You cannot do so with any expectation that 1. they will follow your advice and 2. they will appreciate your "wisdom" in doing so. In fact, if you had read my very next sentence, you would have seen that I said as much to you. We get that you not only disapprove of these "whiners", but that you hold them in contempt. Right back atcha, babe.Quote:
Originally posted by Excalibre
You have already been asked by TPTB here to STFU about this. Believe me, I feel no inclination to "give in to you whims in order to mollify you." Why should I? My feelings are my own and they arise from my life experiences, just like yours do. Your feelings are no more important or valid than mine-your tone says that you think yours are. You are correct in one thing: you are insensitive.
Since you tout not walking on eggshell, may I say that it is attitudes like yours that are not only nonproductive but fucking retarded in that they drive people away, here and in real life. You can call those who left pussies or whiners or whatever you like--and you will soon be only talking to yourself. People have given reasons for their annoyance here. You are the only one saying they shouldn't feel those feelings. In short, you're a tool.
If you had bothered to read the rest of my post, you would have noted that I am not leaving and I am not one of those who is very upset. I am irritated by your complete lack of awareness regarding conventional human behavior. I am left wondering if you are prepubescent or just a case of arrested development. Since you are not "sensitive", I hope this is harsh enough for you.
I disagree about this. There are issues of trust and credibility on a message board: we trust that CRSP isn't going to run this board like Ed Zotti does, because he's done things to build his credibility. His transparency in running stuff has given us the idea that we can trust him with a small amount of personal information, and that our time invested here isn't going to be wasted when he (and/or someone he chooses to help moderate) turns out to be a dick. It doesn't take a total lack of perspective to say that if they started posting things like "haw haw, check out this dumb post report that so and so submitted", they'd be destroying that trust they'd built.Quote:
Originally posted by Excalibre
What I don't think is that an April Fool's prank does anything to destroy that trust. For those who say trust is violated, what is it you're actually worried about? Do you think the administration is going to go around giving phony mod warnings the rest of the year? Bashing people and saying "just kidding"? I just don't see it. Has a news organization which posts a fake story on April 1 actually changed the amount you trust them? I mean, they're supposed to provide the news and they've outright lied to you. Yet people take it in stride.
PS. I noticed today that Giraffe actually had the "fake mod fight" idea before we did, and opted not to do it because he didn't want to do something "predictable and wacky."
Could you link to that? I know it wasn't original in anyway but I know I didn't see the idea there. In fact I had not seen the idea on a message board at all. I think I mined some memory of an old silly sitcom.Quote:
Originally posted by McNutty
Featherlou, you know I hope you and others that are upset will eventually feel better, but I am also missing where this is like Ed Zotti's oddball antics. We purposely kept all the stuff between the participants. We didn't falsely ban anyone even as a joke. I don't recall any drama like this one on the Dope. This is a far cry from the Boss's joke you described above. At least I hope it is.
Good post, McNutty. I agree.
Harlequin--I did say phew, but I also said, "goddammit, why did they choose to do something like this now?" I posted my reaction in the Tdome thread about "this thread was deleted" (something like that).
I don't like pranks or practical jokes. YMMV.
Well, if that's the case, I think the whole thing's a wash. It was mostly me making with the bad behavior, and I don't have any credibility anyways. Zero sum game.Quote:
Originally posted by featherlou
http://www.giraffeboards.com/showthread.php?t=1080Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
Damn, I really didn't see that. I spend very little time over there.Quote:
Originally posted by McNutty
Strangely enough, I actually saw it as an interesting insight into what the other mods might do if you actually did go nutty on us. Seems like it would work out OK.Quote:
Originally posted by Winston Smith
You know what? Bottom line, the prank was pretty fun. Last night, I kind of ended up spending the whole evening on this, well, sort of flitting in and out because I was cooking and doing various household chores. I was actually intending to watch a movie but watching this whole thing unfold was more fun. First was trying to figure out what the fuck was going on, then just enjoying the drama unfold, and then figuring out that it was a joke, and playing along. Did you guys catch the brief Morse Code thread that popped up? See, it was fucking fun for a lot of us. And, well, watching the real drama unfold afterwards was pretty entertaining too.
See, I got to spend a fun evening on my favorite internet message board last night. No shocker that some people wouldn't find it fun (and conversely there's shit a lot of people here seem to enjoy that I don't, no problem there. We're all beautiful, unique snowflakes.)
And you know what? No one really did get hurt. Even Liberal played along, and uh that's not super totally typical of him.
Now afterwards a bunch of people didn't enjoy it (no surprise) but then there come the big dramatic claims that people were actually hurt by this. And here's the problem: if we conclude that this is the sort of terrible thing that tears communities apart, now this is yet another thing that we suddenly can't do, and that makes this community just that much less fun. Like I said in regards to the routine fat-people-shitstorms at the SDMB. And like I said, I remember other people from this thread lamenting that there were so many little personal issues that some small percentage of the SDMB community was sensitive about, which meant that you could basically not bring something up for fear of the shitstorm that would inevitably ensue. So then, as the months go by, the "topics that we can talk about" got gradually chipped away. The logical conclusion is when we limit ourselves to topics every single person agrees upon, because even the slightest discord is intolerable. So, then, we do nothing but post kitten pictures.
I'm sorry that a lot of you people have such delicate feelings, but I don't see why I and the many other people who enjoyed last night's action should have to give up something we thought was really fun because, despite it not actually hurting anyone, was so very, very distressing to some small contingent of people. Everybody's got things they're sensitive about -- we all have traits we're not proud of, or pet peeves, or whatever.
But we're not all entitled to insist that no one else ever pokes any of those things. And it really bespeaks a degree of entitlement if you do act that way. I'm not going to deliberately go up to individual posters and attack their sensitive points (unless they deserve it), but by the same token, if you are (to reuse the previous example) fat, you shouldn't complain about every single thread in which someone alludes to fatness. I'm sorry, I'm sure it's hard for fat people. But when we decide that the community's core tenet is never distressing anyone in any way, then suddenly we can't talk about anything.
There's probably a few people who would end up enjoying that logical end point, but I wouldn't, and I ended up eventually pretty unhappy at the SDMB before I left, because that place was sliding down that road pretty fast. I think we should make a decision not to operate by that standard here. Every one of us has something or other that they are oversensitive to, I'd imagine, but that shouldn't mean those people get to decide the rest of us can't talk about it.
It's like all those stories about how elementary schools are banning tag, because the unathletic kids can't handle the stress of not being the best. You know what? It's probably best that the unathletic kids DO deal with that stress a little bit, and besides that, in order to be fair, you have to do a calculation. You weigh the pleasure most kids get out of tag, versus the distress a few people feel because they're bad at it, and you decide that yes, tag is going to be allowed on the playground.
There was a pretty lamentable tendency at the SDMB to encourage everyone to coddle everyone else's sensitivities, culminating in an edict from above that swearwords were no longer allowed. I liked a lot of people there, I still like them now that we're over here, and I'm trying to do my part now to correct this one particular bad thing about the SDMB's culture.
I hate kittens. And pictures.Quote:
Originally posted by Excalibre
And buckeyes. Kittens and buckeyes.Quote:
So, then, we do nothing but post kitten pictures.
Hilarious idea. Let's steal it next year.Quote:
Originally posted by McNutty
I might not have expressed it exactly the same way, but I think for the most part Exy is right. I think one thing we all wanted here was a little bit of lightheartedness...not taking everything so seriously, not worrying constantly about saying the wrong thing, not being able to state an opinion without a 20-poster pileup. I feel bad that some folks feel hurt or upset over this prank, but I hope that in the end, the fact that it was meant to be amusement for all of us will mitigate some of the bad feelings, and we won't lose any more posters over it.
Yes, perfect. Except you need to stretch it out another 2000 words with a bunch of pointless analogies, then it will be just like my post.Quote:
Originally posted by Sarahfeena
Seriously, succinct and exactly right.
That's definitely a big part of it.Quote:
Originally posted by eleanorigby
This isn't about being too accommodating towards overly sensitive people; this is about having a little common sense that people who are refugees from message board drama might be tired of message board drama. As for credibility, all the mods and admins have lost credibility for me because they didn't see the obvious fallout for how this would go down. That's pretty short-sighted for people who are supposed to be steering our course here. On the other hand, it could just be that I was having higher than realistic expectations of them. I won't make that mistake again.
I have a strong feeling it will bite them in the ass in the future, too - I think they'll be surprised at the long-lasting repercussions of this little bit of "fun." As we all know, message board members have long memories.
Except it didn't. You're trying so hard to define this as some catastrophe that struck the board, when the worst that happened was you and a couple other people were unamused, and one poster decided to leave in a big huffy flounce, like he does habitually. It is just not a catastrophe for the whole Dome community that a couple people had their feelings injured. You are not entitled to redefine what happened like that.Quote:
Originally posted by featherlou
No-one appears willing to answer my questions, but that doesn't mean I'll stop asking. What exactly are you planning to do in the future to cause these repercussions?Quote:
Originally posted by featherlou
Why do you assume that I'll do anything to cause repercussions?Quote:
Originally posted by Harlequin
The obvious fallout is exactly what I would have expected. It was obvious for me, anyway.Quote:
Originally posted by Excalibre
*I'm* not entitled to redefine what happened? What's the matter, am I stepping on your toes?
Well, someone has to, or they won't happen. Since you're sure they will, I'm just assuming you would. If you won't, instead answer the question what you're expecting other people to do?Quote:
Originally posted by featherlou
I still don't get why anyone would be all that upset by this. Seems rather odd.