Ouchies.....
I go to class and come back to the middle of a battle ground.... O_o
Printable View
Ouchies.....
I go to class and come back to the middle of a battle ground.... O_o
Also, I somehow managed to lay hands on myself at 0 life..... As after healing myself for 6, I'm currently at 5hp and not complaining about that. (-_-)
But owies...
Nope, the arrows came in waves, you did the Laying of Hands before the third arrow hit. Now get in and post your first round and second so it made sense that Orcs shots at you.Quote:
Originally posted by RoOsh
I should have done that.
What's Sabert got on him though? is he knocked off his horse? What weapons does he ahve on him? Or is he still on his horse?
He is horsed and lanced to charge through the orcs like he loves best.Quote:
Originally posted by RoOsh
If you have an edit, PM it to me and I can edit it in for you.
Just to emphasise that any apparent animosity in the discussion between Macsalin and Mellowbeorn is entirely motivated by in-character personality clashes. :smile:
Hear, hear. I am thoroughly enjoying being a ruthless, philandering, murderous Pirate in Malacandra's Pirates campaign.
Also it's interesting that he and I are playing a Druid / Bard combination in two What Exit? adventures.
I just expected a different atmosphere in this game where Glorfindel is Macsalin's hero.
Well, we appear to be stuck in the arse-end of nowhere with no-one to turn to for help and any number of undead to get to grips with, to say nothing of orcs and their hangers-on, so "what are we going to use - harsh language?" :lol:
I blame (in order):
- Pr*f*ss*r T*lk**n :eek: (for his excellent depiction of complete Good v endless Evil)
- the Valar (for letting Morgoth run riot)
- Glorfindel (for not arranging the mission better)
I will be sending my resignation to the Tolkien Society forthwith. :sad:
Are Orcs irredeemably evil?
As you know, (if nothing else than because you read Malacandra and I talk about it on the Dope Setup threads) Tolkien struggled with this idea until the end.
Here is how I am playing it, though your characters should not know this.
Orcs are made from corrupted and tortured descendents of Elves bred with the minor spirits of evil or at least sinfulness that Melkor employed. The Elven minds were broken but the bodies still existed due to his very dark sorcery. The Orcs are not Elves but something bred from broken Elves and with only partial spirits. However, later on, Morgoth, Sauron and Sarumen all bred the early broken orcs to enslaved and evil humans. The current breeds at mostly part human to some degree. Oddly only the small orcs, which I commonly refer to as goblin, are the closest to the early first age Orcs.
Orcs can live a long time, especially the weaker goblins but their life is not pleasant. Most orcs will not live that long, many die in childhood, killed by larger orcs. They larger strong orcs are susceptible to most human aging issues like cancers and even heart problems. They can live longer than humans and the ones that do retain the vigor of youth but most will die by some means long before they reach 100.
Their society is brutal, cruel and utterly evil. The larger orc breeds will often eat Humans, Elves and even other orcs and goblins. Not only when in dire need and not for simple ritual. They mostly worship Melkor/Morgoth or Sauron. Again the smaller “goblins” are less likely to worship at all and their shamans come closer to evil druids than clerics.
For redemption, I thought it was already established that orcs can be redeemed but it is not easy and rarely works for the larger breeds. It was almost always the small serially put-upon “goblins” or “snaga” that would reach deals with the Party. These showed the greatest chance of some redemption.
The Dwarves generally don’t go for this concept and few humans. You will find Elves mixed in opinion and Halflings the most likely to support the idea of mercy and redemption. Normally the Wose will kill any and all orcs found. Ghân would be most exceptional in this regard as he is also in being their first Druid.
... :sigh:
I still won't kill goblin children.
But I feel better than about my choice to give them quick deaths.
Thanks to What Exit? for giving us some room to manouvre.
I'll be posting in the main thread, hopefully striking a useful balance.
The way I see it, a Good-aligned character should treat redeemable evil creatures as redeemable, if there is any way to do so; but there is nothing wrong with treating irredeemable evil creatures as what they are, although any good person will do so with the minimum of suffering.
That's fine by me.
P.S. Many thanks for your help with the poem. I never knew how hard it was just to write something basic!
The Paladin only Detects strong Evil and for that matter Very Strong Good. Goblin and Orcs are very unlikely to Detect as Evil. A Know Alignment will tell the exact alignment.
Strong Evil I define as most Undead, Shaman of Morgoth and Sauron, some evil Sorcerers, Necromancers, most Dragons, most Wargs and Werewolves, Evil items, etc.
Evil humans, humanoids, trolls, most orcs are not strong evil.
Very Strong Good would include Elves of the Light like Glorfindel and Clerics like Princess Gilraen in the other game. The Friar would not at this point Detect as Very Strong Good but would Detect as Good. Radagast and Tom Bombadil would not detect simply because they can avoid be detected. Most Elves do not detect as Good but all Paladins do.
Paladins also can Detect Lies at will (a percentage chance) and this ability should be used in questioning.
Jeez, we TRYING to pick a fight here with the Paladin every time or what?
:smack
Come on guys, it's called Tact!
As you know I did like your original roleplaying idea of a naive Paladin with courtly ideas.Quote:
Originally posted by RoOsh
But Sabert is putting the party at risk (with his wordy challenges to Monsters who probably don't speak Common and his waffling when we're trying to decide if interrogating prisoners is correct).
Why didn't Sabert tell use he could Detect Lie?
Why didn't Sabert use his Detect Lie power when we asked the Goblin all those questions?
I assume it's always on. I don't have to "activate it" as I just detect lies.Quote:
Originally posted by glee
That's where I got that interpretation from.Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
All you need to do is let the others know you can do it and be around for the questioning.Quote:
Originally posted by RoOsh
Mmkay, so I don't need to highlight it in blue or anything, just stand around and listen, right?
Mind you, if I Charm a goblin and it comes over all friendly and helpful then either::lol:
- it failed its saving throw and is charmed[/*:2zsv10s6]
- it made its saving throw and is wise enough in the ways of magic to realize what I was doing when I mumbled a few words and waved a sprig of mistletoe about and is a convincing actor and a quick thinker besides[/*:m:2zsv10s6]
It would not hurt to highlight in Blue. The party needs to get use to you being around. Only Theogrim would in theory be use to the fact that you are extremely good at Detecting Lies and none of the players are really use to it at all.Quote:
Originally posted by RoOsh
Correct!Quote:
Originally posted by Malacandra
Okay, I'll try to do that from now on. However, if I'm not there when the action is occurring (in terms of real life), just assume I'm detecting lies all about me :DQuote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
But if I'm around and posting, I will try to post that in blue for future reference.
Hey guys, sorry I've been scarce. I was out sick from work Friday and not on the computer over the weekend really at all.
I think we should move on (and said so in-character, in the thread). I think we'll get murdered in a frontal attack, I don't like the tunnels at all, and I don't see any plausible ploy to get them to come forth, especially since they already know something's afoot.
So we enter the 'Last Chance Saloon' as the Druid is presumably proposing to create a fiery inferno inside the Tower, relying on his Protection from Fire to keep him alive! :cool:
DM, can we have a map of the inside of the Tower? (from the Charmed Goblins)
Just so Mal has somewhere to post his ideas :bump:
Though I had to say... your death was QUITE hilarious when I read it.
If I wasn't a paladin, I would have snickered at that.
"Take me to your leader"
"Okay"
ARROWED! :gurgle gurgle:
Everyone else: "Hmmm... that's a good point, we never really considered HOW he'd get to the tower, did we?"
Sabert: "COWARDS!"
Mallowbeorn's not dead yet.
And he was heading for the Tower accompanied by a Goblin resident.
Remember Sabert was going to stand outside and issue a challenge...
Yes to all the above - it at least seemed worth a try, or at any rate better than sitting around for another week or two real time waiting for the mighty armoured warriors to get around to growing a set between them. Now more than half your healing, almost all your offensive magic, your best source of antivenom and the keeper of a fairly macho fighting animal is bleeding away on the rocks, hoping amid the haze of pain that the Friar will oblige with a cure and it's not going to be left to the charmed goblin to rummage around for anything on Mellowbeorn's person that it might be useful to feed him.
It's always been a running gag in "Knights of the Dinner Table" that the PCs burn down any creature they have a clear shot at, whether it seems to want to talk or not. I guess I'd better take a leaf out of their book in future and to hell with getting creative.
Sorry, but these are elite orcs. They are the elite of the Uruk-Hai. These are also orcs on a dangerous mission in a dangerous situation that showed every sign of being extra paranoid in the preperations. You had only two chances, either lure them out or leave them be.Quote:
Originally posted by Malacandra
Please look for a PM.
Well to be fair to the planners, we did find out:Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
- how many defenders were left (and who they were)
- where the exits were
- that reinforcements were expected
- that the defenders were planning to sit tight
We came up with several ideas to lure them out (none seemed plausible), but if these guys are going to instantly open fire on an unarmed man accompanied by an armed defender, it's hard to see anything that would tempt them out.
P.S. Could the Charmed Goblin have warned Mellowbeorn that the Orcs would shoot to kill?
The Charmed Goblin was not sure. He said as much.Quote:
Originally posted by glee
The game is waiting on your character at the door for a decision.
Hey... hey... he said he'd stand OUTSIDE their range.... Of course that may have meant finding some way to determine their range, but still.... Also, we could have sent the charmed orc in with the challenge. Heh.Quote:
Originally posted by glee
Sabert's plan was not that foolish as to just stand around and get shot while waiting for them to respond. :smack
*Though now he finds himself having just RAN up to the Gates of the Castle, so he's not much for the better I suppose. :dub:
Though... I still love that image of the Goblin just staring confusedly at this new found "friend" laying there on the ground dying, just curious "Why they hurt friend?" :???:
And who's controlling that bear now?
Can I clarify the situation in my mind?
Were the two Hunter Killers were lying outside the Tower (presumably behind rubble)? Must they reveal themselves to shoot?
How far away is the remaining Hunter Killer?
There have been no missiles fired by any other Orcs?
Mallowbeorn is just inside the Wall circling the Tower?
As long as Mallowbeorn is alive, his Goblin companion is Charmed?
The Bear is heading for the Beorning.
The Thief appears foiled by the door or at least the potential bolts coming out of it and into him.
Do the Warriors have any ideas except to wait for the Dwarf?
The HKs were on top of the tower but one is dead. They did reveal themselves to shoot which is why one is dead and the big one is injured.Quote:
Can I clarify the situation in my mind?
Were the two Hunter Killers were lying outside the Tower (presumably behind rubble)? Must they reveal themselves to shoot?
How far away is the remaining Hunter Killer?
There have been no missiles fired by any other Orcs?
Mallowbeorn is just inside the Wall circling the Tower?
As long as Mallowbeorn is alive, his Goblin companion is Charmed?
He is on top of the Tower. He can shoot Mascalin at least if he is up against the wall of the Tower.
No other Orcs have down anything yet.
Mellow was just inside the wall, where the gate use to be. The goblin dragged him behind the rubble of the wall though back outside.
The Goblin appears to be charmed. You are not sure if it ends if Mellow is dead.
(nemmind. More later.)
Quote:
Originally posted by Glee
OK, so Macsalin is looking up ready to fire in case the Hunter Killer looks over and fires down. Presumably though, if he does attack this way the Hunter Killer would have to expose himself to Celestir and Sandy?Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
Once Dugar arrives, will the three Warriors be enough to protect Macsalin picking the lock from attacks through the holes?
If Mellowbeorn is now behind the wall, does that mean the Friar can reach him (to cure him)?
If the HK leans out enough to see Mascalin, he will be open to shots by all 3 of the archers.
Even when Dugar arrives, you won't be protected for Orcs on the ground flow trying to get you.
The Friar is trying to reach him and following the bulk of Little Bear to do so.
I'm waiting to see in either Knight is doing anything before Dugar arrives.
Sez the DM, in PM:
Let's air this one in public, Jim.Quote:
Malacandra, I am really sorry. The two hits not only dropped you but put you to -10 with fails vs. Death poison on top of it. You also did not mention at any point to anyone in the party that you were carrying Sweet Water from what I recall. Your AC effectively meant they would hit unless I rolled 1s.
You know I am not a killer DM. In fact Glee complained in the Dope Game I am too soft. This situation was just impossible and you really misread it I am afraid.
Would you like to continue playing with a new character? I can't provide any miracles this time.
Scouting meant scouting. The party is low level and low powered and it was quite the accomplishment to do what the party had already done at their low level.
Well, crap. I guess I'm guilty of having let the SDMB campaign colour my expectations, since in that one we could go around doing stuff and nobody seemed to be in danger of dying suddenly, whereas in this one we've had, what? - three trolls bounce us at night, they're on us with about a round's warning and we get to watch in admiration as the NPCs take care of it; we chat to the local wildlife; we hit a small group of goblins by night; we attack another group and it's thank you and goodnight from me. Oh, after we've spent many days of playing time forming and discarding one plan after another, which was a less than stellar role-playing experience from my end of things and perhaps contributed to my impulsiveness.
Perhaps I am also guilty of having relied too much on "plot armour" and figured that as long as I was contributing positively to the story then things would work out more or less OK. Now I wasn't looking for any guarantees that this encounter was going to end in the amusing spectacle I was planning, involving smoke, flames, orcs running around screaming chased by a crazy druid who had set himself on fire and the party profiting amid the confusion, but between us, I still think that's a more entertaining way to script it than "They just shoot you. They hit you twice. You're on -10 hit points and poisoned as well." It's almost embarrassing to detail the possible ways you could have handled this so that Mellowbeorn, if not triumphing, ended up sadder, wiser but alive. Instead, you have decided that it's more important for him to go for the dirt nap.
I say "you have decided" quite advisedly, for as DM you are the sole arbiter of fact in your campaign. The dice are not. Don't give me that "really sorry" routine, because you are the one who decided it was necessary that the dreaded elite Hunter-Killers should shoot an unarmed, unarmoured, escorted, harmless-seeming putative prisoner (a decision I am courteously assuming had nothing to do with the DM's knowledge of my intentions if once I made it into the tower) without even a yell or two at the escort to demand what the $#17 he thought he was doing, you are the one who decided that they should hit twice before I had a chance to react, you are the one who decided you absolutely had to abide by your rolls for damage and save vs. poison... and indeed you are the one who set up the encounter in the first place. Well, I guess the rest of the party know to take the campaign seriously now, but to be blunt I acutely resent being made the object lesson.
Something I really thought you would have learned in, what? thirty years of D&D is that players who are willing to invest time and trouble in creating believable, enjoyable characters - the kind who will learn a difficult verse form simply in order to have their bard write a poem in it - and who have the integrity to tell the DM that his ruling on, say, Charm Person is too favourable to the players, are a lot harder to come by than elite Uruk-Hai with 18(00) Strength, bows to match and a supply of lethal poison: any DM has an infinite supply of the latter if he likes.
No, I don't intend to spend time creating another character, complete with genealogy, history, attitudes, motivations, a sense of his place in Middle-Earth, and hopes and aspirations for the future which may have nothing whatever to do with power, influence, wealth or fame. You have chosen loyalty to your monsters and adherence to the game mechanics over such considerations. You pays your money...
Wow, I am sorry Malacandra. Two players advised leaving this be. I tried to stress the danger of this situation. I thought the kill zone without any real cover around the tower was a strong clue.
I'm really sad you'll be leaving the game. There was no plot armor yet. That happens often when players go against the plot. This group is not that strong. Another wrong move or unlucky rolls will result in more deaths.
This encounter was never meant to happen. As to the dice rolls, you were nearly impossible to miss. You were not an object lesson but the sad results of my not wanting to complete destroy the integrity of the game from this early.
The first battle was indeed about letting the party work safely together to kill one troll. The first real battle still nearly failed do to poor coordination of attacks. For everything that went right in the other campaign, this one is not going well at all.
Was I really suppose to have the Goblin say? "Don't go, the Captain is a rat bastard and will shoot you immediately."
I guess I should have. This was too weak obviously:
I have killed so few PCs as a ref that your is one of the very few. I really felt I was left no choice. The HKs have great reason to be paranoid. They set up everything to be paranoid.Quote:
The goblin replies to Mellowbeorn, "I think so but I am not sure."
I tried in a small variety of ways to avoid this. If I tried harder, would I have been a good ref?
Thank you for playing Malacandra, I really am sorry you won't continue.
Everyone else, I'm sorry for the pace of this game and the results.
I might not post again today. I have to leave early to put my cat asleep that I have had for 17 years and I feel like complete shit at this point. Arduine, Armande and Whtwulf all know her. Velcro is in terrible shape and we can't wait any longer.
Im sorry james, i love that cat since shes been a baby, tell her good by for me, and we id try and tell you NOT to go in this place it was beyond our skills at time, i also advise the part they were elite skilled orcs, and archers, and would kill you not talk. James in all the years i have gamed with him over 30 years, as he said he gives the players all the chances he can, and dosent go out to kill them, but you had many warnings, even the party leader decided to leave this be, and you went on to the tower, so no balming him.
Very sorry to hear about the cat, Jim. If you remember my "Eulogy" thread from October before last, you'll know I'm no stranger to this particular grief.
Out of respect, I'll not continue with the argument for now. Let me know when you're back and recovered.
I also am sorry to hear about Vecro Jim, may Velcro go to a far better place with lots of Beckys', sting and dice to play with.
Gordon
Interlude:
The Hobbit (first draft)
The Hobbit (revised draft)Quote:
DM: The noise outside has died down. Everything seems quiet. Thorin is admiring the golden cup you brought back yesterday.
Bilbo: OK, time for another look. I'll go down the tunnel. If it looks like Smaug is still there, I'll put the Ring on and go invisible.
DM: You can see the cavern ahead. It seems to be lit like yesterday, with Smaug's own glow.
Bilbo: On with the Ring, and moving silently.
DM: Yes, you are confident your feet are making no noise.
Bilbo: Edge down to the cavern and peep in.
DM: Smaug looks asleep on his mound of treasure.
Bilbo: Watch for a minute or two.
DM: You see a gleam under one eyelid. He is only pretending to be asleep! His head turns towards you and his jaws open. Make a saving throw.
Bilbo: But I'm invisible and silent!
DM: Dragons have an excellent sense of smell and his hearing is probably good enough to hear your breathing and the disturbance you make as you walk through the air. He only has to put a 30' wide breath weapon in the right ballpark. You get +4 on your saving throw for invisibility.
Bilbo: And +3 for my 17 dex is... a 21.
DM: Makes easily. You take 176 points of fire damage.
Bilbo: WTF?
DM: Smaug is much tougher than the dragons in the Monster Manual. Remember, he cleaned out this entire fortress a couple of hundred years ago.
Bilbo: ...So I'm on minus 151.
DM: You make a system shock check for taking so much damage in one go. Your CON is 13... Failed.
Bilbo: So I'm dead of system shock as well as being a small pile of ash.
DM: Sting is vapourised in Smaug's terrible fire blast. But the Ring rolls out of the conflagration with not a mark on it.
Bilbo: ...And I care because...?
DM: Sorry. Smaug was really paranoid because he had some treasure stolen yesterday (by you, although he didn't know that). The treasure's all he cares about.
Bilbo: But he wasn't paranoid enough to want to know who I was or where I was from?
DM: Even if it wasn't you who stole the cup, Smaug knows he hasn't a friend within a thousand miles of here.
Bilbo: That is a very specific level of paranoid.
DM: I'm really sorry. The dwarves told you Smaug was dangerous right back in Hobbiton.
Quote:
DM: The noise outside has died down. Everything seems quiet. Thorin is admiring the golden cup you brought back yesterday.
Bilbo: OK, time for another look. I'll go down the tunnel. If it looks like Smaug is still there, I'll put the Ring on and go invisible.
DM: You can see the cavern ahead. It seems to be lit like yesterday, with Smaug's own glow.
Bilbo: On with the Ring, and moving silently.
DM: Yes, you are confident your feet are making no noise.
Bilbo: Edge down to the cavern and peep in.
DM: Smaug looks asleep on his mound of treasure.
Bilbo: Watch for a minute or two.
DM: You see a gleam under one eyelid. He is only pretending to be asleep! His head turns towards you and his jaws open.
Bilbo: But I'm invisible and silent!
DM: Dragons have an excellent sense of smell and his hearing is probably good enough to hear your breathing and the disturbance you make as you walk through the air.
Bilbo: Oh crap. I'm dead the moment he wants me to be.
DM: Smaug says "Hello, thief! Come for some treasure? I have plenty!"
Bilbo: Nuh-uh! I say "Thank you, but I didn't come for presents. You're the most famous dragon in the world, and I wanted to see if the stories are true!"
DM: He laughs. "Silver tongued liar! And who may you be?"
Bilbo: Uhh... I don't want him to know, but I don't want to annoy him. I'll give him a load of double-talk, about where I've been and what I've done, but nothing too plain and with no names mentioned.
DM: He gives you a very evil look, as though to say "You think you can match wits with me?", and you get the idea he's worked out a good deal more than you meant him to.
Bilbo: Ouchie. Time for some more flattery, laid on thick.
DM: He likes that! He boasts about how strong he is, and shows off his coat of armour - dragon-scales above, gems below where he's been lying on the treasure for centuries. But, just where it's hard for him to see, there's a patch the size of your hand, near his heart, with no armour at all.
Bilbo: I still have Sting, don't I?
DM: I'd need to see a lot of natural 20s if you're going to go that route. /hint
Bilbo: Um, no. All right. I say "Oh, look at me, selfishly keeping you awake. I'm sorry, I ought to go. Bye!"
DM: He actually seems taken by surprise for a moment - as though he thought you were well under his spell. But he dashes over to the tunnel...
Bilbo: Oh crap!
DM: However, he's so huge he can only get his nostrils into the tunnel, and snorts a whiff of flame after you, to teach you some manners. Saving throw?
Bilbo: Net 18, 5th level thief.
DM: Probably a good time to save. You take 17 damage and stumble on, half-blinded by the smoke from your smouldering toe-hairs.
Bilbo: Phew!
Malacandra, I am back and in better shape today. Sorry about that.
I do wish for two things, that you reconsider and that you kept this to PMs. If I knew you were already this attached to Mellowbeorn I still have a little wiggle room. Ask Armande about Beornings near deaths. If Glee is OK with it, I can still execute an escape for Mellowbeorn though it will end the mission abruptly and cause a rapid retreat to Rivendell.
So far players are being cautious and I think the party will escape with no more deaths.
Please let me know here or by PM.
I will admit to never expecting this reaction. It is ironic as I am about as far from a killer DM as there has ever been. I really thought I gave the party every reason to move on and it looked like all had agreed. I am sorry I did not use the Goblin to more strongly scare you off the plan. Even if you made it into the tower though, you were dead as dead could be, you just might have taken a few with you instead.
I really do have an in game way to save the Druid, please let me know. I don't mind of the other player don't.
Good to see you back, Jim, and while I am sorry for your cat, I do know from experience that the worst is over now and the pain will be lessening already.
I will happily take this back to PM but not right now - I am extremely tired. I would like to say to the room though that I did not start this spat with the intention of publicly embarrassing Jim into a face-losing climbdown; and that I, for one, am quite capable of violently disagreeing with someone while simultaneously liking and respecting them. I accept that this sometimes makes me hard to take. :cool:
Speaking as one of the guys now currently TRAPPED basically inside of the tower where we should have not have even gone into in the first place- It's been really tense reading these posts back and forth on how TERRIBLE of an idea it was to try to take on these orcs and the tower. Good to see now though we've entered the lion's den how BAD and TERRIBLE of a dire situation we're in....
Good times.
Though I guess I will say- WhatExit Did try to encourage me via PM to try to go w/ the luring the orcs out of the Tower approach vs. the head on approach. It's one reason Sabert has been waay more forceful about trying to find a method of getting them OUT of the Tower rather than going to the Tower- but I wasn't sure how to come right out and say that "GUYS, I THINK THE DM WANTS US NOT TO RUSH IN BUT TO LURE THEM OUT" would be kosher or not. But yeah- I was trying the best I could to convince you guys to do the lure thing, only because I got a PM saying "try convincing them of that plan more"- so WhatExit WAS trying to subtly push us away from rushing at the tower, but I guess I wasn't that good at matching logic vs. Glee and the others- who were incidentally correct in their assumption that the Tower Orcs WOULD be really paranoid and wouldn't fall for it.
So I ask ya, WhatExit, after the facts- would the Lure strategy have worked or would it have been Sabert basically taking two to the chest if we had tried to get them out of there?
No need to apologise. You had really important things to do and I hope all went as well as it possibly could.Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
It is most courteous of you to mention me in this way.Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
I'd like to say a few things and I really hope they help everyone.
1. Both you and Malacandra are great to roleplay with. I really hope we can sort this out to everyone's satisfaction.
2. It's much trickier to roleplay on the Internet, where you have no personal contact and cannot 'sense' the atmosphere.
3. I think this situation is a clear example of two different ways of roleplaying:
- What Exit?, you like to run a dungeon where the DM has the whole storyline clearly mapped out. There is a fully detailed, well-researched backgound. NPCs will play a crucial role and generally direct the action.
The emphasis is on the story and players will have a clear, single path to follow at all times. The adventure is about discovering what the DM has planned for the players - with legendary Heroes and Artifacts (e.g. Glorfindel and Sting) turning up. (Players need to listen carefully to the NPCs because any 'deviation' from this storyline will cause difficulties.)
Clearly this works and you are very good at it, because you have players who have stayed with you for 30 years!
- I like to run dungeons where the players make choices and thus can alter the storyline. There is a framework with some set encounters, but the NPCs are only there to offer information or choices.
The emphasis is on the characters and the adventure is about seeing what ideas the players can come up with. The DM has to be ready to respond, sometimes by making things up on the spot! :eek: The players need to know exactly what their characters can do (and keep each other posted about each other's abilities.) They also need a lot of information (typically from questioning prisoners, animals or locals), so they can make decisions what to do next.
This approach also works, as my group has been together for 30 years (and I've run School groups for 20 years.)
However you can see how the two approaches don't work well together.
If the DM is making it clear (through the NPCs) what the party should do next, then a 'creative' player will find it difficult to get his ideas accepted.
Similarly, if the DM is leaving all the planning to the players, a 'storyline' player will be puzzled as to what is expected of him.
I think there was a 'clash of cultures' in this adventure, because What Exit's? regular players were briskly moving on, following Glorfindel or Sandy's advice. They didn't need to interrogate evil prisoners, for example.
Malacandra and I were constantly looking to find things out (even from Goblins) so we could decide what to do next.
When we got to the Tower, the difference in the two styles really showed up. For example, my character ran through (and discarded) several wild interesting ideas:
- 'claim we've got a message for the Orcs'
- 'pretend we've been captured by the Goblins'
- 'have a Dancing Bear act turn up to entertain the Orcs'
- 'offer to check the Orc's security for them'.
I'm not suggesting any of these would work, but it does show how I roleplay.
4. I think we should sort out what sort of adventure it's going to be from now on (of course the DM has the final word, because he does all the work!)
5. It's perfectly reasonable for any DM to make 'adjustments'. After all the game is about having fun, not satisfying some international regulations. Depending on what everyone else thinks, I would be happy, for example, with ideas like:
- Mellowbeorn to escape and the party to flee
- Mellowbeorn to be captured by the Tower mob and the party then launching a rescue mission
- Mellowbeorn to be saved from death by the Goblin (stops the bleeding) and the Friar (pours a Sweet Water potion down Mellowbeorn's throat)
- the whole Tower combat turning out to be a vision sent to Theogrim* (so we go back to that fateful morning and decide what to do next)
*I got this idea from the TV show Dallas! :wink:
6. If you've read this far, thank you. :smile:
1) RoOsh, The idea of luring out the orcs was much harder than I thought as I mis-remembered what charm allowed. I think there still might of been a way to do this but not as simple as I thought by a long shot and retreat was probably safest.
2) The HK were never going to negotiate and are extremely paranoid about the damn Elves and Rangers that are harassing them year after year. Even if I allowed Mellowbeorn to reach the tower, he would have never left it. He dropped past -10 technically for the first two arrows which had effectively a 95% of hitting. He also technically failed both saves. The dodge to keep him alive is where we say between the first and second arrow he starts transforming into a bear but looses his human shape for an extended time and might still day without major medical help. (Rivendell or the King or some such.)
3) Glee, you would be surprised how often the party on the Dope directed where the adventure went. I never expected the group to work with the snaga and that led to a far greater victory than strength of arms could have. Elendil's Heir turned a helpful NPC into a major plot device. I mostly go with the flow while gently pushing the party into a situation of a grander quest.
4) I had this storyline mapped out but Malacandra circumvented part of it by using Mr. Fox to get excellent intel on the Orcs. I then had to think about how they supplied themselves with food and realized where their paranoia would play into your hands.
5) Nuh-Uh and Ugh! to the Dallas solution.
The discussion still seems to be going on right here so I may as well post this as send it via PM; there's no privileged information in it. I'm sorry if the turn this has taken now makes you feel as though you are forced to cheat publicly in order to save Mellowbeorn's undeserving life, but since you told me "You're dead. There's nothing I can or will do" I don't think it's my fault for interpreting that as meaning that I was dead and there was nothing you could or would do, and posting accordingly. It may help all of us if we're on the same page concerning our expectations out of this campaign.
For me it's not so much a question of attachment to my PC as anger at the betrayal of implied trust - that I would not be insta-killed without the chance to do anything about it; and being told by an apparently contrite DM that he had no alternative was just the icing on the cake. It's no excuse to say "that's how I set up the encounter". If you put a cloak of poisonousness into a treasure hoard, and a PC puts it on and dies with no save as per the rules, you don't get to say "but I didn't think anyone would put it on!".
Which brings us round to the goblin's warning, which I did find vague and unclear. I think a case can be made for a greater sense of urgency - such as you would use to a favourite, well-meaning but unworldly uncle who was casually announcing that he couldn't possibly pay the Mob protection money, and was sure that if he went and had a civil word with the capo it would all be smoothed out painlessly. Such an urgent warning is warranted if Captain Ratbastard does operate a shoot-to-kill policy, and either:
- Snaga knows this in-character, and acts to preserve my life as per Charm Person
- Snaga doesn't know this in-character, but you want to avoid the insta-kill situation.
(The cleared field of fire is no clue at all. That's SOP around any fortification, unless the defenders are druids.)
Assuming that you've not issued any such warning, though, let's cut to the scene at the tower and assume that Captain Ratbastard is a thinking, reasoning being, not just a 4+1HD monster with +7 to hit, +8 damage and save vs poison. You have said that he's paranoid and sick and tired of the Elves and Rangers. Very well, I'm plainly not an Elf and I'm sure as shooting the damned strangest Ranger he's ever seen. What am I up to?
- Am I coming in to negotiate surrender terms? All right, he'll negotiate - with a red-hot iron up my arse, and then when whoever I'm negotiating for turns up, he'll fight to the last orc
- Am I a renegade Man willing to sell out some Elves and Rangers? That's all Captain Ratbastard's birthdays coming at once! No doubt I'll be expecting payment. Well, *heh heh heh*, there'll be payment all right...
- Am I some kind of madman? I'll look all the more amusing over a slow fire, once the boys get tired of peeling an inch of my hide off every day...
The idea that I might be some kind of wizard, *just* powerful enough to cause trouble if he lets me get close enough, but still weak enough to be shot down on the instant - in a campaign where magic is rare - should be quite low on his list of suspicions.
You still don't want to let me in the tower? Fine, I can be stopped in a number of ways if you're sincere about wanting to avoid a meaningless PC death.
- One of the non-HK orcs, also manning the ramparts, is the first to see me and shoot, hitting me twice but leaving me conscious, running headlong for cover and admitting the plan is not going to work
- Captain Ratbastard, not having watched a madman die of poison for a while, looses off a *single* envenomed arrow which, if it doesn't kill me outright, will leave me writhing and screaming in an amusing manner for a couple of minutes before I croak in a welter of foam, shit and contorted limbs. (Actually I'll be running headlong for cover and, if I stay conscious long enough, frantically making with the Neutralise Poison if I did fail my save, but precious few people Captain R ever meets could do that, and he doesn't know I'm going to.)
- Captain Ratbastard looses off twice, hits twice, the DM realizes I've gone straight to -10 hit points and *gasp* fudges the damage roll so I'm only on -7, and none of the players is any the wiser.
You keep reiterating this 95% hit probability as if it meant you had no alternative but to take me from full health to stone dead in a New York second. It doesn't. You need to ask yourself "Is this taking the encounter in the direction I want it?", and if the answer is a horrified "No", it may mean that the script needs to be changed to produce the satisfactory outcome, rather than changing your definition of "satisfactory outcome" to fit the script.
Now, let's assume that CR held his fire for any of the reasons above. You're saying I was certainly dead if I ever got into the tower. Why, based on the intel we have - a few orcs and goblins? Let's take a closer look:
Captain Ratbastard turns to one of the lessers on the ramparts. "Go help Snaga with that Man he's bringing in. The rest of us are staying up here. If this is some kind of a trick, those Elves and Rangers are going to find us waiting for them - and I'll give you a yell to put a knife in that Man's guts."
Mellowbeorn enters and there are either few enough enemies on hand he can start to Charm them as per Plan A, or else they're suspicious, have weapons pointed at him and are about to put manacles on him. In that case it's time for Plan B - drop, roll, turn into bear, crushing the oil-flasks and lantern as he does so. Now he and any combustibles in the room are on fire. The Orcs roll initiative, they only need an 11 to hit him so he's hit three times and has to save vs poison as one of them is using a poisoned knife...
Wait, what? Someone's set himself on fire, and their first reaction is to attack him? Whatever happened to:
- Point and laugh at the burning lunatic (probably not an option in a confined space)
- Try and put him out, Captain Ratbastard wants him alive (probably not an easy option when you're dealing with a burning bear who isn't cooperating)
- Try and put the fire in the room out (probably not an easy option unless their fire-drill is really tip-top)
- Shout "Fire!" and flee in panic - at least the madman is incinerating himself, they can wait for him to run out of the flames and die amusingly
The ideal outcome for me is that they flee, the door is now wide open, the stairwell is acting as a superb natural chimney, smoke and flames are rendering it impossible for Captain Ratbastard and co to get downstairs without taking a lot of fire damage, the fire is spreading upstairs, panic and mayhem is prevailing, the reinforcements are coming it, the archers on the ramparts are hampered by the smoke...
I admit that this entails the defenders making a wrong decision or two, but they aren't in possession of all the facts. The DM is, but I trust him to referee fairly.
Alternatively, and this is where we get onto the betrayal of trust issue, we can assume that all monsters are Borg-like killing machines existing only as hit points, To Hit bonuses, armour class, damage and special attacks, and only the PCs are expected to role-play. In this instance I think you were guilty of an "only tool is a hammer" moment - when your monster is munchkinned as the ultimate Uruk-Hai archer, every problem looks like a pincushion. But, you know, if the object of the campaign is that one side should reduce the other's hit points in the most effective fashion, and whoever runs out of hit points last is the winner, then so be it.
You have three options, Jim. Arrange for Mellowbeorn to survive if you think it is fair on the other players and your campaign. Have him die and me drop out of the campaign. Have him die and give me a replacement character. But if you do choose the third option, then I know how the land lies and this is the character I will play:
A fighter named "Fie Turr" (or maybe "Eh-hugh"), either human or dwarven. Dwarves are good because they get a Constitution bonus, high resistance to poison and magic, and some special abilities, but Men can ride horses and use some bigger weapons - and that (along with ascertaining whichever kind of Men get the biggest stat bonus) will be the *only* factor in my decision. Str, Con and Dex in that order, please. I'd like a Wis just high enough to void saving throw penalties. Int and Cha will be dump stats and I shall "roleplay" them accordingly. The heaviest armour I can clank around in, I'll choose my weapons after I've gone over the penetration tables with a magnifying glass and, again, that will be the only factor in my decision.
Fie-Turr will display the kind of rank ignorance of his own culture and Middle-Earth in general that will convince you it's a capital crime to understand the campaign background. He will have no aim in life other than to subtract hit points from the enemy while retaining his own, all NPCs will either be a source of treasure, healing, directions to something he can kill, or (if female) something to try and have sex with, or will not exist as far as he's concerned. He won't remember the names even of useful NPCs - not if "the elf" or "old pointy-ears" will do (except that he might remember to call Glorfindel "the elf-king") - places, items or indeed anything except his raison d'etre: staying alive while ensuring that the enemy do not (for no reason other than that they're "the enemy").
But, by dayum! - if he hears of something in the vicinity that can shoot him to death, he will assume that it will certainly shoot him on sight no matter what he does, and you won't get him near it with oxen and wainropes. And no doubt his career will be long and glorious.
I assume that such a travesty of so-called roleplaying is as abhorrent to you as it is to me :lol: and you would prefer in your campaign the kind of PC who, on being invited by King Eomer to name their own reward for a beautiful song, will take nothing but friendship and a read of the King's copy of the Halfling's Book (game value: nil). So work with me here. :)
I don't expect to bear a charmed life. But it would be helpful and, I think, fairer, to ensure in general that between "Your plan doesn't seem to be working" and "...you're dead" there came at least some opportunity for a PC to save himself. That might make you a worse referee if, say, this were a D&D tournament and you were concerned not to favour one group of players over another. This is a different kettle of fish and, as per the Parable of Bilbo and the Dragon, above, the outcome might be a more entertaining story.
Footnote: "Nu-Uh and Ugh!" indeed to the Dallas Solution! :lol:
Well first things first, we need to see if anyone else ends up in desperate need of help/rescue. Mellowbeorn can be saved and I am ready to play it out. The party probably needs to be planning to abandon the mission anyway as they are now down their stronger spellcaster. Mellowbeorn will be shifted to bear shape by effort as the second arrow hit and once the Sweet Water is administered the bear will be mostly fine. The problem becomes he needs special healing from a place like Rivendell or he will never regain his human form. Even with help it will take 21 days but I don't think this is a major obstacle.
As I said, we now need to see if the party can do enough to pull back out of this situation without any more losses. The situation is very dangerous. If the Leader is still alive he won't be easy to finish off.
Thanks for offering a solution.Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
If we do have to retreat and heal up, could we do the same thing as in your SDMB game; i.e. time passes for all so we can all continue playing?
[Channelling Sabert] This unholy being will go down before the might of good! I shall challenge HIM in the name of the King! [unchannelling]Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
Yes we can and it is no problem. Beside Malacandra is leaning towards taking the loss of XP option to speed things up.Quote:
Originally posted by glee
Yes, that seemed fairer to me - and makes it plain to the party that this privilege is not one I'll be likely to abuse.
If I'm "mostly fine", and the Friar is able to pray for Speak With Animals, that might make communication a little easier over the next few days. :lol:
Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
Um, does that mean the Druid takes an XP hit :smash: , but recovers to rejoin the party?Quote:
Originally posted by Malacandra
If so, I think that's very sporting by all concerned. :cool:
He still needs medical help, more than the party can give. Even finding Glorfindel would not help, so unless Elrohir, Elladan, Aragorn, Arwen or maybe Princess Gilraen a trained healer of Estë :wink: is wandering by, he needs to return to Rivendell.Quote:
Originally posted by glee
From the Game Thread:
I thought the Protection from Evil would work against any attack by an Evil opponent (e.g. you'd get a +2 on your save v a spell at long range).Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
What are the ill-effects of the protection?
I need to verify that later, but as I recall you are right about the spells and the evil creature is -2 to hit if he can even pass the barrier of the Protection. Non-aligned Missiles don't care about the Prot vs. Evil though.Quote:
Originally posted by glee
Where is the Friar?
He could be heading for the tower. I need to wait for Armande. Someone might want to signal him to rush over.Quote:
Originally posted by OneCentStamp
[quote=What Exit?]I need to verify that later, but as I recall you are right about the spells and the evil creature is -2 to hit if he can even pass the barrier of the Protection. Non-aligned Missiles don't care about the Prot vs. Evil though.[/quote:3tnpf6do]Quote:
Originally posted by glee
I think only Summoned or Conjured creatures have problems passing the barrier.
If a Non-aligned Missile (fired by an evil guy) isn't affected by the Protection, why is a Non-aligned Sword affected?
Glad you asked that, the Evil creature is up against the Prot vs. Evil, he is feeling the ill-effect. It is similar to Gilraen's song. The Archer is probably far more than 10' away.Quote:
Originally posted by glee
As to the Creatures, I have generally played it for this world as most of the strong Undead, critters like the Werewolves, Shelob and Vampires and of course Balrogs.
Also ghouls (as a specific named weakness) and ghasts (ditto, but only if the protection is reinforced with cold iron). However, I doubt either exists in this campaign.Quote:
Originally posted by glee
/trivia
The way I've usually seen it refereed is that a Prot Evil cannot be crossed by
- anything not on its own plane
- anything that has turned up in response to a conjuration or summoning
- ghouls (and ghasts as noted)
and hence such creatures cannot make natural-weapon attacks through the Protection. Meanwhile, all attacks launched by anything with "evil" as an alignment component get -2 to hit (or +2 to the protected person's saving throw), as a generalised "bad mojo" effect. The protected person can force himself closer to a warded-out creature than the radius of the protection (for instance, a paladin could corner a ghoul and then close to hand-to-hand range) and this would void the exclusion/no natural-weapon clause, but the mojo effect still applies.
Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
Quote:
Originally posted by glee
I've played Protection v Evil like malacandra has - any Evil attack from any distance gives the bonus.Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
On your rules, if an Archer is point blank (e.g. within 10') the bonus applies?
How come a spell like Hold Person is affected at a distance if cast by an Evil Cleric, but not by a Neutral one?
Yes to the really close missile attacks but I don't understand the spell question.Quote:
Originally posted by glee
The Paladin gets a bonus vs. spells casted by evil cleric is correct. Though if an evil Sorceror drops an Ice wall on the Paladin that is simply kinetic energy at that point and not magic.
I am not the best but I will do all in my power, including praying for some intervention, fat chance of that, aside from the Gods seeking active interest I suggest we get the helk out of here to a safe point or secure this dang area so we can make a safe retreat.
Friar
Um, you know your religion best - but do you want to call for Divine Aid when there are only a couple of orcs left?Quote:
Originally posted by Armande
I'm not sure how we retreat to a safe place across open ground with no cover with a Hunter Killer on a roof nearby.
Securing the area also surely means killing the leader.
The plan is for you to heal Dugar (and Sabert if you can), then the Dwarf leads the Warriors out onto the roof.
Quote:
Originally posted by glee
Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
Quote:
Originally posted by glee
By this last I meant that you distinguish between an Evil Cleric casting spells (which do gain the Protection) but there's no Protection if he fires 'Non-aligned Missiles'.Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
I wondered if spells could be Non-aligned', hence my question about Neutral Clerics...
Um , treating Protection from Evil 10 ' as only working if the attacker is within 10' of the Paladin (rather than party members within 10' of the Paladin getting the bonus) throws up some interesting points; e.g. if an evil attacker is within 10' of a Paladin and attacks a person 60' away (with spell or missile), does that person gain +2 on his AC and Saves?
And if an Evil Cleric uses Animate Object to drop a piano on a Paladin, is that just kinetic energy or an attack by an Evil person?
OK, you are making my brain hurt, but once gravity takes over, no save bonus.Quote:
Originally posted by glee
You couldn't drop a piano on someone with Animate Object, you'd need Telekinesis for that. An animated piano would only be able to roll along the ground (I suppose a grand piano could charge on its three legs and snap with its lid). Prot Evil wouldn't affect it, whereas if you summoned a piano from somewhere or conjured one from the Demi-Plane of Sentient Musical Instruments - or were accompanied by a pianodemon that had reached our plane by gate or plane shift of its own A-chord - such a piano would be hedged out completely by the spell.
Mind you, I also doubt that pianos exist in this campaign. Just as well, because if one dropped on you, you would be flattened - and I don't suppose the poor piano would be in very good tune, either. :lol:
DM,
Sandy described himself as a Hobbit Archer.
Does he have skills like Find Traps and Hide in Shadows?
No, none at all for traps, he is good at keeping very low and sneaking around outside.Quote:
Originally posted by glee
Trap finding is your job I thought?
I was just checking on a suggestion in the main thread.
Gotcha, I saw that after I posted above.Quote:
Originally posted by glee
Bah- Macsalin dodging my backslap! If this were a real game and in real time, I might be tempted to try to roll to see if I was sucessful at patting you....
Next time... next time- I'll back pat you one of these days! You WILL be moral boosted by Sabert eventually!
Glee likes RoOsh; Macsalin doesn't like Sabert...
Macsalin thought you were trying to smack him round the head. :smash:Quote:
Originally posted by RoOsh
Macsalin will accept neither moral nor morale advice from Sabert. :tongue:Quote:
Originally posted by RoOsh
Sabert cannot see the dislike yet. He just assumes you have low self esteem.
Anyone is worthy of talking to Sabert. No need to put yourself down. :)
Hence, Sabert's attempts of bonding with you. He will win hearts and minds!
You Will Like Him Too! One Day....
Is it wrong that I picture Captain Hammer during this whole exchange saying these things? (-_-)
:D
RoOsh, you know I said Sabert was a great creation?
Well he is (because I've known someone just like him!) ... but he gets right up Macsalin's nose. :smack
All three what are down, Jim? All three tunnels? All three remaining enemies? I'm dense and didn't want to ask for clarification in the story thread. :smack
A Dwarf, an Elf and a Paladin climbed down the ladder.Quote:
Originally posted by OneCentStamp
Well, I'm glad i asked! :smack :lol: :smash:
I don't mind the bugging out, I think it probably needs to be addressed. But I'd rather you guys do it on horseback, ya know?
Only because in watching glee's game- the Party took their time and the Orc thing ate a person that they could have saved. So uh, even though that's not our situation, I'd still like to continue this discussion while we're heading back to town.
Is that fine with everyone?
Um, in my game, what do you mean by "the Party took their time and the Orc thing ate a person that they could have saved"?Quote:
Originally posted by RoOsh
What could they have done differently?
When they arrived to meet the Orc, he had already eaten the woodcutter. Perhaps there was some way to save him? I'm not really sure (as I'm not involved in the game), but I for some reason felt really bad for that guy (the eaten one). Probably because he was trying to do some good, and was graphically shitted out into a river. (well, the parts in the river probably weren't him, but that could be his fate too eventually).
It was a very nice description but REALLY made me go O_O "Oh crap! Literally! That's disgusting!"
So I guess it's more of an emotional/visceral reaction "We could have done SOMETHING to help!"
I'm afraid you read the description perfectly. :eek: And that was the reaction I was aiming for - I hope I didn't overdo it. :emb:Quote:
Originally posted by RoOsh
The party did all they could...
Do we want to try this again?
I will move the party back to Rivendell and Mellowbeorn will be on his way to good health.
We need to determine a better way for the party to work together and the mission and treatment of captives.
We'll need some sort of Chain of Command too.
Little things, overall the sentiments of Elrohir and Elladan are with Celestir and Dugar. Don't try to rescue goblins, kill with as little trace as possible and move on. Goblins, even enchanted goblins can cause grief from ignorance and different mores. Goblins have little to no honor and the larger Orcs have none at all.
As to the mission, try to minimize risks. While the smaller orcs (goblins) can often be negotiated with, the Uruk-Hai cannot be trusted and are always dangerous. If you do get information from a goblin in exchange for its life, sending it to Gundabad is fine.
I appreciate the role-playing that went on, but I think we need to have RoOsh downplay it, mellow Sabert a bit in the downtime, chalk it up to Theogrim and the Elves.
The party will need to choose a leader, but for game purposes, it should be someone prepared to post fairly often.
Can we do this? Can we get these characters to work together?
A few more game points, try to read the other posts, especially those from me the DM. Too many posts managed to ignore stuff already said and done.
Please avoid quoting at all costs. You will lose experience as it means you are not able to express yourself in character. However mainly it decreases readability of the game thread and makes it harder on the other players.
I'm going to stick to the idea of Sandy leaving the party. I was thinking about adding a Magic User instead unless we get another player. I liked Sandy but it would be out of character to stick to a group like yours. You scared him and put his life at unneeded risk.
When I post maps, maybe you could shortcut them and refer back to them as needed. They come in handy, take time to make and post and answer many questions.
I will try to spell things out more clearly. I will try to set up a next mission with more specific goals and instructions.
Needless to say no one made level. The loot is fairly minor but division of said needs to be done.
Please comment, suggest, gripe or better yet decide how this group can work together for another go at it.
Do you want a different type of mission? It will be too late in the year to head north again anyway.
I am all for trying it again
Thanks Z.Quote:
Originally posted by Whtwulf
I don't mind. Perhaps getting some people who may want to play a magic user would be nice (from the waiting lists of Glee's game) perhaps.
I'm certainly not going to contradict Elladan and Elrohir in the house of their father and to their face, but neither in the future shall I be charming any goblins just so an impatient dwarf can kill them because he's tired of arguing. He can shoot his own ducks without my getting them to sit for him. That said, I was never out to start a goblins' friendly society, still less after this little unpleasantness. Rest assured that it will be one of our warriors going over the parapet first next time.
I am still prepared to follow Theogrim and I for one intend to listen to him, but if he does not wish to lead then we had better decide on another leader and do as he says.
I'm happy to roleplay anytime!
Having said that I think the main difficulty was that there were two totally incompatible roleplaying groups. Each was perfectly consistent and could have done well by themselves.
Dugar, Celestir and the Friar consider all orcs and goblins irredeemably evil and untrustworthy. (Indeed Tolkien gives this view in the books.)
They are prepared to torture these scum for information and kill all found (even the children). It's a clear way to play and those players stuck to it.
Macsalin, Sabert, Theogrim and the Druid thought there were some goblins (not Orcs, especially not Leaders) who could be persuaded to give information (without torture) and that they should then simply be told to leave the area. This was an important theme of a previous What Exit? campaign on another message board (in fact we're onto his 5th adventure using this style of play).
DM, you must spell out the boundaries precisely if these two groups are ever to work together.
If Dugar's people have a lengthy, deep abiding hatred of Goblins, why on Middle Earth should he listen to Macsalin bleating on about releasing one?
If the Druid finds out useful information from Goblins and makes bargains with them, why should he then watch them being slaughtered?
The big questions are:
- do we use torture* on Orcs and Goblins?
- do we kill Orc and Goblin children*?
- if a Goblin co-operates, do we send it to Gundabad?
*personally I find these things repugnant and wrong for 'Good' characters to do. That's just me.
DM, if you want to work round it, you could have any captured Goblins offer to talk in exchange for their lives and never have the party encounter Orc children.
Theogrim is a fine leader, but OneCentStamp is obviously a busy chap.
If you really need someone who can post regularly, I'm semi-retired. (However if I've narked people in the first adventure, then it wouldn't be good for me to lead :emb: .)
I think adding an MU would really help. We have excellent Fighters, versatile Healers and a (nervous :smile: ) Thief. So an MU would bring a lot to the party.
DM, I assume you'd be happy playing the MU if we don't get another player? It would allow you to 'guide' us, which is always useful (as Elros does in my roleplaying game).
(On a personal note, if this MU had Invisibility, Macsalin could scout far mre confidently. This in turn would give the party more options...)
Bullets:
- I'm definitely up for trying again, and it doesn't even have to be a hard reboot as far as I'm concerned; we can take our lumps and chalk the first adventure up to experience.
- We're a diverse party, and it actually stands to reason that we would have conflicting views on things like disposition of prisoners. True, we've failed to come together as a party, but so would have the original Fellowship without Gandalf there. We need a leader whom everyone willingly defers to.
- I'm happy to try and lead the party, but I will not always be able to be very verbose due to demands on my time. If we want a more vocal leader, it won't bruise my ego a bit - mine or Theogrim's - to step aside for one.
I don't recall any suggestions of torture being offered. :???:
I suspect that the Orc runts will be contentious. Dugar and Celestir come from the school of runts are vermin, exterminate them, the rest seem to range from apathy to strongly against said acts.
I need to hear from the NJ contingent still (Arduine & Armande), but it sounds like we'll head out from Rivendell again with a mage to replace the Hobbit.
It will be over a month later when the party heads out and probably south or at least east this time.
We could try for a short specific mission into Goblin Gate, it is close by and out of the weather.
We could head for Greenwood but south along the Anduin.
We could just head south as an escort to someone.
I am open to suggestions, but heading North is a bad idea now.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - -
Just to clear things up. WhtWulf is an old friends that lives far from me and I have only seen once in the last 10 years. We are friends from the Navy. Arduine knows him but Armande does not.
Arduine & Armande are local to me in New Jersey and the main part of my Friday night tabletop group.
Glee and Malacandra are in the UK and very major players in the very successful SDMB Middle Earth game that parallels the other two games.
OneCentStamp played for a while on the SDMB but left the SDMB. He is actually resuming his old character.
RoOsh is actually new to the game.
Looking back, I see the mentions of torture came from yourself!
Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
(PM from What Exit?) Dwarves can ethically torture orcs and still remain good.Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
You are right that killing runts will be contentious. :eek:
And you haven't explained whether our party should let Goblin informants go, or simply kill them.
[quote=glee]Looking back, I see the mentions of torture came from yourself!
Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
(PM from What Exit?) Dwarves can ethically torture orcs and still remain good.Quote:
Originally posted by "What Exit?":1oh2170u
You are right that killing runts will be contentious. :eek:
And you haven't explained whether our party should let Goblin informants go, or simply kill them.[/quote:1oh2170u]
Threats and rumors of torture are not the same as actual torture. Remember the lies Saruman told the Dunlanders about what the Rohirrim would do to them. Goblins believe Elves and Dwarves will torture them, only reasonable as Goblins and orc will torture each other willingly.
Unless you have seen a good player torture anything, it is only rumor and the rumor is indeed false. Though then we head into the realm of what is torture. Some would say exposing an orc to sunlight is torture and other would only call it a minor interrogation technique. Dick Cheney claims Water-boarding is not torture and yet it is impossible for me to see it as anything else.
Tying Elven Rope onto Gollum was a torture to him, but the brave Hobbits had no other choice and to most creatures it would not have been a torture. Making me listen to Celine Dion is specifically a torture to me. (No, seriously, it makes me run babbling from the room or punch off the radio.)
I need to see the context on the PM on the Dwarves. I don't recall it.
I am in favor of the failed party approach over the hard reboot myself, as it fits my character quite well. Still hasn't succeeded in his task, so he's continuing to wait for his chance.
That said- yeah, I was always worried about running into children, and just as a player note- I really hope we never have to resort to that sort of a dilemma, my character was designed to have certain moral flaws- and one of them is DIRECTLY in conflict with the attitudes of the group- which is NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND. The fact that he'd rather die than slay one really really worried me considering I really don't want to stand against this group of players too often.
The archers are cowards line was a throwaway, and I suppose just like Sabert, I figured it'd get no contention just a "whatever" sort of line. Didn't expect it to pick up traction the way it did, so mine and sabert's reactions of sticking his foot in his mouth were pretty much on the go. I honestly didn't expect to go down that road- and it did put my guy "off" from the group a bit. Which fits Sabert's personality and past experiences with people. But still, not so fun as a player having to deal with that extra stress, as Normally (from my Mafia playing style) i like to be a very big team player. But I'm always content to let the story speak rather than myself- which means making the choices that I as a player may not like but that my character would do (such as dying to protect youth). I'm not a fan of it myself but if my character would rather be killed off than disagree on that- I'm willing to let him do so.
I guess I'm just trying to find a playing style that works- as I've seen two very different styles in here. And I guess I put myself more into the Glee's non-violent camp since I would probably find it easier to play a morally neutral or evil character than a morally good one. But If i'm playing a good one, I'll try my best to stay on that "good" side- but the games I've read have been the previous ME games on the Dope boards, and Glee's game, where he's a pretty moral guy who keeps the story open for such investigations and side tracking ways to get around problems.
I can play it any which way. I thought we were in more of a "storytelling" campaign than a "wargaming" one, hence my rather direct and foolish approach to a problem that it did not seem we could solve by use of force. But I know differently now, and I've played a good deal more Medieval: Total War than RPGing in recent years, so I'm happy for it to go that way too.
As long as players understand that Sabert is limited as to what he can allow to be done to prisoners and still retain his class and beneficial features, that is. Just as Mellowbeorn has agreed to forego the use of poison while associating with Sabert, so we all have to exercise some restraint over how we treat prisoners; no abuse (not good) and no lying (not lawful). And no, we can't just lead the paladin behind a bush while we're practising our skulduggery - that workaround was being ruled out of court back in about 1981. :lol:
Otherwise, Mellowbeorn sees no reason to mollycoddle goblins, and indeed his great-great-grandfather's approach would just have been "Talk, and I will not skin you until after you are dead". But he will not charm them to have them killed out of hand, especially when he has already planned what to do with them (and knows very well what his spell can and can't do, and for how long, thank you very much). And I'm content not to roleplay what happens to non-combatants and juveniles, just as when I besiege a castle in M: TW I don't need to see the defenders dying of thirst and disease and murdering each other for a handful of food, nor the wholesale rape and pillage that undoubtedly follows the end of the siege, nor do I need to be told more about the fate of unransomed prisoners except "{They} need no longer trouble your thoughts". I'd like us to focus on something a little more heroic.
If OCS is indifferent about the party leadership, I really think we could do worse than trust ourselves to glee, as long as Macsalin is willing to be a little sadder and wiser about this whole "Goblins are people too!" policy. The non-Dopers may not know that glee has not only been playing AD&D as long as the game has existed, but teaches it as part of his paid occupation and may be fairly supposed to know the game system inside out. :cool: And as to his strategic and tactical acumen, you should also remember that he is a Master at chess - and I mean literally an international-class player.
We could view the events of the last few weeks as a big learning experience for several of our characters, and I'd like to see how much better we can do second time out.
I don't care if we do a hard reboot or just work around this problem, either is fine with me. As for the goblin mess, Dugar has no clue what the limits are on a charm person. All he knows is it wont last that long. This means the goblin has allready gained knowlege of our party. Its size possible make up and direction. If we let it go and it ran into a band of orcs it could give us away. This would probably mean the death of us all. So while the druid was TKOed we sat around arguing. He took the gordian knot approach and just removed the problem. It was a strait forward answer as far as he was concerned.
Jim dont get me started on waterboarding and torture.
Just one note, I was never intended to suggest a hard reboot.
Any ideas on what next? As I said, heading back north is out for now.
[quote=glee]Looking back, I see the mentions of torture came from yourself!
Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
(PM from What Exit?) Dwarves can ethically torture orcs and still remain good.Quote:
Originally posted by "What Exit?":2sxnzm07
You are right that killing runts will be contentious. :eek:
And you haven't explained whether our party should let Goblin informants go, or simply kill them.[/quote:2sxnzm07]
To save space, I'll interperse my comments in red
Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
Mellowbeorn has a rather better idea - two to four weeks, probably the latter, maybe longer if it's a particularly stupid goblin, and even then it has to successfully save versus magic or wait a similar length of time before it gets another save, and so on, and so on. It could stay charmed for months before the spell wore off. At worst for us it is over two weeks before we have anything to worry about and it's highly unlikely we're staying around that long even without worrying about the crebain sounding an alarm and a bunch of orcs coming to find out what's going on. All this Mellowbeorn knew and had taken into account (and Macsalin probably had a fair idea, if you'd listened to him). But of course Dugar had to think he knew better than the silly druid - once the silly druid was in no position to argue. :dub:Quote:
Originally posted by Whtwulf
In too darned much of a hurry to stick the axe into a wounded unarmed prisoner, I'm thinking, and you'd better not make a habit of it or of second-guessing Mellowbeorn if you are counting on his goodwill.
Quote:
Originally posted by Malacandra
Really?? I guess asking questions to a unresposive party member should have been the 1st thing i tried. Since the only one in the party that knew how long the charm person would last was TKOed and we were still in a dangerous spot leaving was the best option is his mind. The only sticking point was what to do with the goblin, since elves with their longer lifespan will often discuss things down to the smallest detail he eliminated the sticking point to get the ball rolling to get the party member to safety.
Now if your wondering if Dugar would just kill prisoners out of hand instead of turning them in to the local law the answer is, depends on if transporting those prisoners would outweigh the safety of his friends or others. If you notice Dugar never once said im sorry or even gave the orc another thought. His main concern was getting the party to safety and getting the druid healed.
Bahhh will get back to this later got to take off for now. :lol:
Watch it, chum. Ask Jim whether getting into a sarcasm contest with me is a good idea. I wasn't suggesting you should ask an unconscious person a damn thing - only that going with his last stated wish on the matter might be better sense and better manners than deciding you knew better than him.Quote:
Originally posted by Whtwulf
Killing wounded prisoners because you're tired of listening to your friends arguing about them is the kind of thing we're meant to be fighting against. If your argument is some variation on "Well, it can't be evil if we're doing it", I'd stop digging now if I were you.Quote:
Originally posted by Whtwulf
As I say, I intend to deal with this problem by not giving you any more charmed goblins to have to worry about. Kill as many of 'em as you like, but you'll have to catch them for yourself. No biggie.
OMG ok i would have killed this gobblin myself as i told the party i would long before it was even a topic of his life. 2nd as the brothers pointed out, the dwarf and myself were in the RIGHT in killing this gobblin, 3rd, you are the druid we are unsure of the duration of your spells so the dwarf took the RIGHT choice to kill this foul creature. Also you watch it James knows Z and myself very well, Z dont back down to threats he thrives on them. We were again in the RIGHT to kill him, and this was Aproved by the brothers of Rivendal, there law is the LAW here. This party is way to political correct for this game, protect gobblins lol ,cry over them, Z, James, Gordon, i love all of James games, but i have to leave this game, and gameing time James and myself have been playing D&D since 1977 ish.
Please don't make internet threats they really serve no purpose.
Once again the druid was not in an way shape or form to ask anything of. I don't remember reading anything about his last wishes to be to take care of his charmed goblin but hey maybe i am wrong.
For the dwarf killing the goblin, who was earlier in the day was trying to kill him, removed the argument about what to do with him. Was it a lawfull good deed? Of course not. Then again the dwarf is not lawfull good either. The goblin was a sticking point on getting an injured party member to safety. As it was the party was not going to be moving at a high rate of speed so any extra time would be a good thing.
I am not looking to have an internet fight. Its childish and reeks of stupidity. Now if you would like to say that your druid would not have done what the dwarf did fine i can agree with you. If you want to say the dwarf is wrong for it the question is are you arguing about YOUR OWN sense of honor and duty or your characters is the question. Now you may think the dwarf is being a bloodthirsty bastard. The dwarf was thinking of the state of the druid. See the difference?
Quote:
Originally posted by Whtwulf
Quote:
Originally posted by Malacandra
But Dugar didn't ask anyone in the party how long Charm would last. (Macsalin knew.)Quote:
Originally posted by Whtwulf
He didn't say "I'm worried about the Goblin telling others about us when the Charm wears off."
His actual words and actions were:
"Ok from where i stand it looks like figuring out what to do with this goblin, who would gladly rip of me beard if given a chance, is holding us up from getting our forest mage the help he needs. Well not any longer".
Dugar grabs up his dwarven axe and slays the orc.
"NOW lets get our friend the help he needs, i refuse to let a friend die for some stinking orc!!"
As I pointed out, we have an eleven day journey back. Dugar saves a few minutes of discussion by killing the Goblin.
Also our leader, Theogrim had already said:
"@ everyone: "I'm still not entirely comfortable with letting the prisoners go, but if we're reasonably sure that they will go directly home under this Charm, then that seems an acceptable compromise."
Is Dugar going to listen to Theogrim?
1. So you too would have ignored Theogrim's ruling?Quote:
Originally posted by Arduine
2. The brothers actually said (bolding mine)
"Little things, overall the sentiments of Elrohir and Elladan are with Celestir and Dugar. Don't try to rescue goblins, kill with as little trace as possible and move on. Goblins, even enchanted goblins can cause grief from ignorance and different mores. Goblins have little to no honor and the larger Orcs have none at all.
As to the mission, try to minimize risks. While the smaller orcs (goblins) can often be negotiated with, the Uruk-Hai cannot be trusted and are always dangerous. If you do get information from a goblin in exchange for its life, sending it to Gundabad is fine."
How does this make it RIGHT to kill the helpful goblin?
3. Nobody asked how long Charm would last. (Macsalin knew).
4. You mention 'political correctness' - I can't find that in the D+D Manuals. Could you give a page reference?
5. You mention James' games. I have had the pleasure of playing in 5 of his adventures on the Internet and in those we have often interviewed Goblin prisoners and then either released them (with their weapons), or got them a job (roadbuilding, under supervision).
6. Congratulations on having played since 1977 - it's a great game.
I have only been playing since 1979 myself, although I also have been teaching the game for 20 years at my school (4-8 hours a week). I have had the pleasure of reaching the UK Roleplaying Individual finals on the two times I entered, plus also winning 'best roleplaying team' with my mates. My school team reached the UK finals 3 times (out of 4 attempts) and won it one year.
P.S. I am very confident that Malacandra's comment about sarcasm simply meant that he is excellent with words (as shown for example by his bardic poetry and song in What Exits? other Internet game) and would be sarcastic back.
@Arduine: All those years of roleplaying, and you've neither learned the duration of a core 1st level spell, nor how to look it up in the Player's Handbook, nor how to spell "goblin"? I'm sorry you find it necessary to quit the campaign over something as trivial as this, but I'm mostly sorry for Jim's sake. I'm also sorry that you dismiss as "politically correct" the suggestion that unarmed prisoners shouldn't be tortured or killed in cold blood, but if you're not coming back than I guess we're not going to have to learn to respect each other's point of view on this.
@Whtwulf: The only "internet threat" I was making was a suggestion that you not be rude and sarcastic to me, otherwise I should only be rude and sarcastic back, and I have had a lot of practice. :lol: {And glee got this spot on :lol: } Apart from that, now we've had this little talk, supposing we move on? Mellowbeorn certainly isn't shedding any tears over the fate of one poor little goblin, especially after witnessing close-up what orcs with bows do to unarmed men. Just try to remember another time that when I say "After the prisoner has done thus-and-so, this is what I want done with him" I do actually know what I'm talking about - in this case, that he would be at least two weeks on his way before it occurred to him to have a Tom & Jerry "Jackass" moment, and any news he could bring about us would be well out of date.
In Jim's Straight Dope campaign we've had some spectacular successes through treating goblins as thinking creatures with aims of their own - most notably, persuading a hundred or more of the weaker ones to turn on their masters enabling us to win a huge battle and them to be allowed to head East out of Gondor to a colony of their own. I'm perfectly happy for us not to be a kind of team of travelling social workers acting as though all the enemy needed was a cup of tea and some therapy :lol: but there is occasionally some benefit to figuring out some other approach than "I'll kill it because I can."
@glee: Yes to all, but shall we move on now?
Meanwhile, suppose we head on up to Goblin Gate once we're all fully rested and I've had a few days to restock the goodberries? As I understand it there are still plenty of goblins up there who could do with a short introduction to the business end of Dugar's axe, and we should all be happier for it. It might help us to learn to work together as a team.
Hmmm so my dwarf FIGHTER should know the ins and outs of a 1st lvl MAGIC user spell? A cleric should know this as well? Sorry don't think so. For someone so preachy about roleplaying you must have missed the part of character knowlege vs real world knowlege. So while yes i can go and get all my 1st edition books out and look up every little spell out of the players handbook and every monster out of the MM that takes away from the game imo. Thats the hard thing about roleplaying is not using what YOU know vs what the character knows. While Dugar may be an excellent smith, odds are he does't not know about ultrasonic and radiation applications to determine flaws in the metal he is working with. He probably has done a lot of trial and error to figure things out. I know about the above use of testing to find flaws. Is there a little possible overlap in character knowlege vs mine, yes there is.
This whole situation would have been avoided if the druid was not in unresposive bear form. Since it was and as far as my CHARACTER knew nobody else had a clue what the hell was going on with regards to the charm person spell. The only other spell caster we had was the cleric and he did not know, so why should a inexperianced group of adventurers know either. So my character made a call. Like i said earlier maybe it was the wrong call for you or even your character. For my character it was second nature.
Playing games using armor and weapons is something i enjoy. Hell its what got me involved in the SCA to begin with. I have been wearing armor and fighting for over 20 years now. So i have a better idea on how to move in armor, make armor, make weapons, and use them than many people. I also know a little about making mead(more about drinking mead) clothing,drums ect. Also in the real world i actually swing an axe for a living, so i tend to like fighters with one as well when i play a fighter. Yeah i know its a character flaw but i can live with that.
So now that i too have established myself can we get on with the damn game and agree to disagree on what Dugar did. If not let me know that as well.
What your dwarf FIGHTER should and should not KNOW about is NOT the ISSUE. (Notice how all these CAPITALS make my argument so much more CONVINCING?). As to the cleric, he claimed to have charm person loaded so if you weren't prepared to believe Macsalin or accept that I knew what I was doing when I said we should tell the goblin to clear off back to his homeland, you could have asked the Friar. (Personally I was surprised to see charm on his spell list as it's not normally available to clerics, but what do I know? There's no reason why the DM can't have altered the spell selection as he sees fit.)
Now I've already indicated I'm willing to move on so shall we just do that or do you want to presume to lecture me some more about role-playing? The only reason I didn't suggest myself as party leader, despite a thoroughly successful ongoing campaign captained by me on the Dope, is that I don't see why a Beorning druid should know or care about military tactics. But IMO it would be entirely in character for a bard (who's part fighter anyway) to have studied battles both modern and ancient, which is why I'm happy to nominate Macsalin, and as I've mentioned already, as a player glee comes with credentials that are second to none.
I'll be talking to Arduine and Armande soon and will see if one or both are quitting.
I have to side with WhtWulf here, his decision was proper for his character with the Druid incapacitated. It is something the characters need to work on and get agreement on in the future.
I also think too many characters ignore decisions from Theogrim, be it the bugout he called for that led to the Druid's injury or Dugar slaying the Goblin.
Overlooked in all of this, is the last two orcs were very unlikely to survive the tunnels being collapsed. So at least Dugar's hastiness eliminated all witnesses and got the party on the road before the Crebain showed up.
Mocking Arduine's spelling is a bit much Malacandra. This was the specific reason he never joined the SDMB for that game. He is a poor speller and too many dopers are unforgiving in their mockery of spelling mistakes. It sounds like this will no longer be an issue though.
This whole thing reminds me of Gimli and Legolas entering Lothlorien. :lol:
Any chance we can drop this and insteadfigure out how to go forward?
I'll be talking to Arduine and Armande soon and will see if one or both are quitting.
I have to side with WhtWulf here, his decision was proper for his character with the Druid incapacitated. It is something the characters need to work on and get agreement on in the future.
I also think too many characters ignore decisions from Theogrim, be it the bugout he called for that led to the Druid's injury or Dugar slaying the Goblin.
Overlooked in all of this, is the last two orcs were very unlikely to survive the tunnels being collapsed. So at least Dugar's hastiness eliminated all witnesses and got the party on the road before the Crebain showed up.
Mocking Arduine's spelling is a bit much Malacandra. This was the specific reason he never joined the SDMB for that game. He is a poor speller and too many dopers are unforgiving in their mockery of spelling mistakes. It sounds like this will no longer be an issue though.
This whole thing reminds me of Gimli and Legolas entering Lothlorien. :lol:
Any chance we can drop this and instead figure out how to go forward?
Malacandra tell you what you just go ahead and continue with your mental masterbation and e-peen contests here. I am sure you know better than anyone else on what is going on. Everyone else has no clue and your just better than everyone else.
Yes i used capital letters mainly because its a lot easier for me to do so than to use bold type. So since my way of focusing on a word or two bothers you so much i guess its time for me to go as well.
Yes you win have a nice day.
Jim, sorry that this didn't work out. I have attempted to be reasonable. If i wanted to get in an internet pissing contest i could just go and check out some chat rooms on yahoo or something. I had hoped that i could play and in the meantime shoot the breeze with you and Mike since its been a few years. However having to read pompus statements showing off how much they know about a game that has been played for over 30 years is a bit much. Having had to establish my knowlege and ability as a roleplayer is silly to say the least. I can see why Mike was worried about playing a game of this type. I still find it amusing that people are often able to say things online that they would never dream of doing face to face. Well at least not to my face anyway. If this can be salvaged in some way let me know. If not i will still try to keep in touch, at least to bitch about or respective baseball and football teams.
Well, despite Jim asking for calm twice and despite Whtwulf doing his full share of the pissing and despite the DM saying he was in the right, I see we've got another grand exit speech from someone who figures he could totally kick my ass IRL (where I'm just as argumentative, btw).
Sorry Jim, I have as you know enjoyed the SDMB campaign immensely and I was prepared to do likewise here, and still am if you have enough players or we get any more volunteers. But I warned Whtwulf it was no use being rude or sarcastic to me, he ignored me, and guess what? He can't take back even a fraction of what he hands out. And again, I'm sorry for being shirty with Arduine but I felt I was being yelled at a sight more than I yelled back, so the same comment, really.
...And I tried, I really tried just a couple of posts back to say "Let's stop this and go and do something we can all enjoy with a clear conscience", but Whtwulf felt he had to come back for another go at it first. :dub:
Really you said hey lets just go on? Ohh yeah you did after posting condesending comments.
As for me being able to kick your ass IRL, who cares. I would much rather just go hit people in armor anyway. I get more out of it and don't lose my temper when i am in armor. When i get in street fights two things happen either my hands get hurt or my nose gets broken. Either are not fun anymore.
Scroll up to the top of the page where i started commenting about this whole mess. You quickly started in on me because you did not like how i played my character. You made assumptions on what my character knew.
It looks like this started because you assumed that my character could ask your druid in sleeping bear form questions, or should have asked him questions about his abilities before he was stuck that way. I guess you ask everyone at work about their typing skills, how fast they read and other tidbits on how they do their job. If thats the case well your far more informed than i am about that kind of thing. Since i pointed out what i thought was an pretty stupid point on your part you quickly got defensive and then felt the need to try to prove how superior you are. I guess your use to being a big fish in a small pond within your gaming circles, where everyone listens to you regardless of what they think. Problem is when that big fish gets moved elsewhere and assumes that everything is the same.
Do you want to stay here and argue or do you want to storm off? If you want to stay here and argue, do you want to argue about what I actually said or do you want to keep on making up both sides of the argument? You know, what with me not once having suggested you should have asked questions of an unconscious character?
Big fish, small pond - take a look in a mirror. You can't kick my ass across the width of the Atlantic - all we have here is words. I'm sorry if that frustrates you on account of your being a big scary street fighter who I wouldn't dare talk back to face to face, but if that's what you bring to the gaming table then I guess you're playing the wrong games.
You find my comments condescending? Have a quiet think about this, and decide if you really believe I'm doing it on purpose to piss you off, or if it's possible I'm finding yours grating on me just as much as mine do on you, and reacting accordingly.
I wish I had a whistle.
1) Malacandra, I know Whtwulf very well. unlike myself, he would be very scary in a real fight. He is not boasting and this is getting us nowhere. He is a good gamer and was playing his character well.
2) Whtwulf, Malacandra is a very good player and has probably added more to my Dope campaign than any other player. He is playing the best Bard I have ever ref'd with ease. This campaign effectively never got started. It also might now end. (My apologies to all the other fine players in my Dope game, but I think you will agree with my opinion without feeling slighted.)
3) Game experience: Good Lord, between us in this group we have at least 6 players that started in the 70s. Arduine and I started with the 3 Book box set in 1977. I think he actually start a year before I did. Our game experience is all very deep and massive. So lets not worry about it.
4) I apologize, I screwed this up. We needed more time in setup to determine how the player would interact and I should have had you all working together more than just the troll encounter to see abilities. I also underestimate the challenge of three non-messageboard players jumping in. I thought this game would give be a chance to get Whtwulf involved in one of my games again and I hoped he would enjoy it. I thought it was great Arduine and Armande would have a chance to play as they were interested when I talked about the Dope campaign but I knew Arduine would be screw with too much for spelling errors on the Dope if he tried. Believe it or not plenty of people are bad spellers, especially when typing in a hurry and yet are not dumb. I was also overjoyed to get OneCentStamp back into the ME game and to give RoOsh a chance to play. It was a great bonus to have Glee and Malacandra willing to play as the have been mainstays in the Tolkien campaign on the dope from the beginning and are well versed in the game already therefore and in Middle Earth. Malacandra in particular knows Middle Earth as well as I do and I think that is saying something.
5) So I have no idea where to go with this, I think I lost 3 players of the 7. I will say I have a bad taste in my mouth at the moment about the whole thing.
Jim
Jim thanks for trying to set this aright. If you want we can take Dugar out of the campaign and i can play something else.
And dude i have no desire to fight you. Told you i only fight in armor these days, less chance of going to jail :lol:
Heh. I more than half expected Jim to post "Rocks fall. Everyone dies", and he would be well within his rights, and I'm at least half to blame. One of these days I will get a hold of my temper.
Whtwulf, I apologise. No-one has PMed me to suggest this; I'm saying it on my own initiative because I feel it is warranted. I am not going to make any excuses for my bad behaviour. You may take it or leave it and I would certainly understand if you told me where I can shove my apology. This whole petty argument has got way out of hand, far more than I ever intended.
Edit: And if you intend to bid the campaign farewell, that's no more than I deserve, but if you do stay, carry on playing Dugar. One silly argument over one damn goblin is not a reason to retire a perfectly good character.
(out of edit window)
That goes for Arduine too. The cheapo about spelling was just childish of me. :smack
Accepted and thanks
Well... shall we go smack some bad guys then?
Wow, a rollercoaster day. Thanks to both of you for clearing this up.
I just want to call other two tonight and find out how we stand. I would like to give this a second start.
Does a short trip into Goblin Gate as Malacandra suggested sound good? It will be a short ride and a good reason to connect you with a Mage type. I can also throw in a few Dwarves as minor NPCs.
There is a large wealth of maps for Goblin Gate in this folder. This is the specific overland one. You'll see Rivendell to the lower left corner.
Sounds good to me i am still on vacation till saturday
Wow just got home from work, was going to post some big bitch slap, from what i was reading. was going to post all my credentials and play test stuff, but i will not respond to that, i never seen your mock of me as a speller, i truly dont care if i can spell correctly, i am a cancer surviver so far, and someone mocking me dont give a damn, i am like Z i can take care of myself, and as James did say he is scary, he can lift a huge piano up a flight of stairs nearly by himself, well i am still out of this game, i dont need drama, i joined to relax and be with friends since i was asked to play. I am very disapointed this turned out like this, i was haveing fun for awhile, guess i will just play in fridays game from now on James, wish you were still here Z, it was a blast.
Hey to be honest it was only an upright piano.
Hey if i ever win the lotto i can move but untill then i will keep playing fireman in Chicago. Something about running into burning buildings that is fun for me.............never said i was sane.
Sanity? One man's meat is another man's poison as far as that goes, I mean, I have a nephew whose idea of fun is jumping out of perfectly good aeroplanes.
Arduine, I certainly can't argue with your view of what matters and what doesn't. :cool:
Sane dude, i still remember leaveing James house late in the morning you driving us home and going what 80ish and you tell me you cant see, your just following the yellow lines, lol.
... 6 players who've been playing this game longer than I've been alive.
Yeah. No intimidation right there at all....
:D
If it makes you feel any better, I've only been playing since 1982. :lol:Quote:
Originally posted by RoOsh
And until What Exit?'s campaign, I hadn't played 1st edition since about 1990.
Oh don't. I'd just suppressed the memory of when I was driving down to work (bad old days when I had to travel down Monday morning, home Friday evening), it was maybe 5am and the fog was like three yards off my nose, and I was thinking "It's OK, there won't be anyone else about at this time in the morning...". And you may guess what my chances would have been if there had been one sensible driver doing a sensible-driver speed on that road. :smackQuote:
Originally posted by Arduine
Or the grimy evening when the screenwash had run out and I'm thinking "Should I stop and fill it up, or just carry on peering through the crud? Eh, don't want to be late...". By the time I did pull in, it was hard enough to navigate the forecourt without hitting anything, never mind the 70mph motorway traffic. :smack :smack
Why yes, yes I was quite old enough to know better.
Mike i am reformed i havent had my licence suspended for speeding in at least 6 years now. Then again i don't get tickets to often when i tell the cops i am a fireman. They clocked me at 135mph when i was otw back from NYC after 9/11 when i went to work on the pile. Pensy trooper told me have a nice day and the next trooper was about 80 miles from him.
But the jeep i own now wont do 120 so i have to make do with barely hitting triple digits. ;)
Heh, Still playing longer than I've been alive. :DQuote:
Originally posted by OneCentStamp
Though I was 5 when you stopped playing apparently.
Since I am behind I will be answering these in order that i read them so please pardon me if it takes awhile for me to get to posts I need to answer. At this juncture I am not interested in trying again, I will state my reasons.
1. Due to IRL issues, this is trying to get life in order due to my job be outsourced and me possibly losing my job after 22 years.
2. Lack of a party leader, we as a group need someone to fill this needed void.
3. Role Playing nightmares. I do not object to role playing, as for that is what this is all about, however people with too many quirks, and oddities, just make it too much for me to deal with. Which leads me to reason #4
4. Enjoyability. If I can't enjoy it it is not worth my time and effort. Plain and simple.
Thanks for explaining clearly, and good luck with the job.Quote:
Originally posted by Armande
I'll make an offer to the group which hopefully covers your points (as well as others already raised).
Even though the group got off to a rocky start, there's still clear goodwill from all towards What Exit? (and rightly so :smile: ).
So I hope this helps...
1. I offer to take on the leadership (as Macsalin). Theogrim is a fine character, but he is too busy in real life.
2. There's interest in Goblin Gate, so let's go there. Based on a parallel What Exit? campaign, it will be packed full of exploration, tactics and combat.
3. We stamp out Evil, killing all Orcs, Trolls and Undead. If they are too powerful, we retreat and ask Rivendell for help.
4. Using the example of that parallel compaign by our DM, if we get a weedy Evil informant (e.g. a goblin) who genuinely helps us (maps, enemy location etc), we send it back to the Elves outside (who will put it to work in a chain gang). Evil opponents who won't help will be swiftly executed.
5. I understand we can get a few Dwarves to act as rearguard (and escort informants out). This means we can concentrate entirely on pressing forward.
6. Sadly our Knights presumably won't be able to use their horses and lances (and a decision will be needed on Little Bear).
Your reactions and comments are welcomed.
I never stopped playing, I just switched to 2nd, then 3rd edition. Jim and these other oldtimers are hardcore. :lol:Quote:
Originally posted by RoOsh
I'm fine with it and would look forward to playing.Quote:
Originally posted by glee
Glee, this should work fine. A Bard is a good leader anyway and you will probably be the eldest person in the group as the only Elf left. Goblin Gate has been largely cleared and the Dwarves are busy securing it. You might even find yourselves working with Gwaelur, Bitur and/or Hraedsig at some point. (though not the whole time.) I think there will be a situation where the party will be horsed and looking for a faster way to move the Dwarf.
The party will be without a Cleric (Undead/Healing), Ranger and Hobbit. We were already missing a Mage type. WhtWulf is going to play a Healer of Estë. Both characters are simple enough to play and they will have diverse personalities and probably not like each other too much. The healer of course is a non-combatant except against Undead. The healer will not be in a class with Gilraen but that is no surprise.
CIAS may join the game and if he does will probably play either a Hobbit or a Mage. Perhaps the Hobbits will be a Ranger or at least an archer oriented fighter. The Mage will of course be useful. I hope to hear more on this soon.
More lazy, I know the 1st Ed well enough to rarely need to check the books though occasionally on spells there are mishaps. I played 2nd and even a little 3rd but I saw no improvements to justify spending more money or making the change. My 1st Ed/Middle-Earth/Home Grown Worlds worked better for me.Quote:
Originally posted by OneCentStamp
In character, Mellowbeorn thoroughly approves, since without Dugar's courage and fortitude it's likely we would all have gone down in Angmar, and some time helping Durin's Folk will be fair repayment. There may be trouble fitting the bear down some of the narrower tunnels but in the bigger ones I imagine LB will be useful to have around. :smile:
Out of character - yes, that seems to get rid of the arguing points and we can just go kick some righteous ass. :cool:
I already have a pair of hobbits to play, three would be just greedy. I could suggest transferring Rorimac or play a new mage.Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
If you don't get any new players interested in joining, either would be fine, although you will have to run me through your variant for spellcasting if you prefer the latter.
We could port Rorimac over if you like the character, then we need a new Ranger of course on the Dope. (That sounds wrong) The Mage is not too tricky to play, especially at 3rd level. You memorize two 1st and one 2nd. As you are third level, you can cast any spell memorized up to 3 times, so if you wanted to you could use both 1st level spells for Sleep and then use your second for sleep. The spells are largely straight from 1st Ed and you won't have that many anyway.Quote:
Originally posted by CatInASuit
Tougher choice is race. Straight Humans get a +1 Int at least as MUs. Elves have their various bonuses as Elves.
We are also missing a Ranger now if you would prefer that, though Rorimac does take care of that also.
DM, are the players / party at present like this?:
OneCentStamp ... Theogrim (Fighter)
WhtWulf ... Dugar (Fighter) + Cleric (Este)
Malacandra ... Mellowbeorn (Druid)
Glee ... Macsalin (Bard)
RoOosh ... Sabert (Paladin)
CatInASuit ... Rorimac (?) (Ranger)
Now if you don't mind players having two characters, I could play an MU as well. (I've played one up to 14th level before and my regular group have played two characters each for decades.)
Also having more characters, but the same number of players, would not slow the game down either.
If other players wanted two characters, I'm sure you could fit them all in!
Let's let CIAS decide first. Then fill in around that.Quote:
Originally posted by glee
Great....
More Archers. :rolls eyes:
/out of character so I don't get in trouble :D
Actually, I normally like playing cowardly ranged players WAY more than playing in close fighters, so playing Sabert has been an interesting challenge- as I'm the LEAST likely person in a group to WANT to go towards a battle. That's why most of Sabert's comments are in jest, because they're usually applicable to MY behavior in other games (as Malacandra will find out in the Pirates game- there's a reason I'm the Pilot there and not a fighter :D)
Though, it's REALLY tough to stay in that 3rd person mode. It carries over to my normal posting style- when I'm on the Dope or in the great debates or playing MAfia, I keep wanting to refer to myself in the 3rd person or I'll delete an instance where I use the word My or I. -_-
Thats one of the things that Dugar dislikes about Sabert. The talking about himself in 3rd person is so pompus it causes him to ignore 1/2 of what Sabert says. Then I have to try to play that accordingly. Weeee fun.
What the heck, let's give a mage a try. It's been a while since I last played a spellcaster. Consider me in.
Of course, amusing would be introducing Sabert to Mulligan :cool:
Provided it fits with your plans, my Bard Scout Macsalin would really appreciate an Invisibility...Quote:
Originally posted by CatInASuit
So I will generate four more characters as soon as I can.
WhtWulf: Adding a Healer of Estë
CatInASuit: A Mage from Dale, Dwarf and Raven Friend.
NAF1138: A Hobbit Ranger, heavy on stealth/scout. More missile than melee.
Glee: Probably a Dwarven fighter for rearguard.
Excellent.Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
An extra Healer is always welcome - and I really like the Druid / Cleric combination.
We will do well with a Mage (does he have a Dwarf friend?!)
The Hobbit Ranger should complement the Bard Scout.
The second Dwarf Fighter can be a backup for Dugar.
Good question on the Mage, I leave that for you and CIAS to decide.Quote:
Originally posted by glee
Hmmm, do I really want to try the Middle Earth equivalent of Gotrek and Felix?
Your call, glee, if you need another dwarf fighter, let me know.
I thought he was implying your two characters were already friends. I could be wrong.Quote:
Originally posted by CatInASuit
Why does this thread change my format scheme? I'm normally subsilver2, but this one changes me to the green one with baldy at the top. Is it the new forum working some wickedness?
Hit refresh please, I think I did that setting up the new forum.Quote:
Originally posted by OneCentStamp
Do me a favor, trying posting a small image in this thread. You should be able to.
[ img ]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3316/3410688312_ece5cd4b65_o.jpg[ /img ]
That worked great. Did your style return to normal?Quote:
Originally posted by OneCentStamp
Yep!
It's probably a better idea, this party is beginning to get quite large.Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
I got confused because the DM said there were 4 more characters to generate, when it appears there were 5!Quote:
Originally posted by CatInASuit
Given a couple of us (Whtwulf + me) are taking on two characters, feel free to play two yourself. I suggest another Fighter (Dwarf is fine, but do choose anything you like!) to help me guard the rear. (That also means your two characters will be in the middle and the rear of the party, which I reckon is a good thing.
Not so quick please. I think four is my limit for now. That makes for a large party. Besides that puts you and CIAS at 3 per in my ME world. :lol:Quote:
Originally posted by glee
Just the one then, looking forward to it.Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
Oh, OK.Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
(As you know I prefer having few NPCs, so my idea was that a couple of players with Dwarven Fighters could guard the rear...)
They could stand at the back, discuss gold and tell the young'uns up front how to swing an axe properly.Quote:
Originally posted by glee
The first look Lyall the Mage has been PM'd to CatInASuit with some questions.
I'm moving on to NAF1138's Hobbit Ranger.
"Get off my gold mine!"Quote:
Originally posted by CatInASuit
And then there's the famous song about "Where I get my gold from, whose place it is, what I do there, how it is defended against trespassers":
Mine, mine, mine, mine,
Mine, mine, mine, mine,
Mine, mine, mine, mine,
Mine, mine, mine, mine.
I Emailed out NAF1138's Hobbit Ranger first draft. We're getting closer.
First Preview of Glee's Dwarf was PM's and I PM'd a preview of Whtwulf's Healer.
Players, any pre-adventure discusion in Rivendell on how to work together?
You lost three members but 5 will be replacing them. A Human Mage, Hobbit Ranger, Dwarven Brick and Human Healer. The last will be another Dwarf for the tunnel work at least. His name is Rüdan and he is a skilled underground tracker and fairly good fighter. He knows mutual people that Theogrim knows as he worked with Gil-Gandel's party. Thus he also knows several of the Hobbits cousins. He also knows both Dugar and the new Dwarf.
The mage is nearly ready I think.
I need the other three to get back to me so I can finish up the characters.
If everyone else still in?
I'm in and raring to go.
Oh yes.
We need to keep together and work as a team.
I'm in, I'm glad we got things back on track and I'll be replying to finalise my excellent Dwarf shortly.
Macsalin will suggest a brief discussion in Rivendell to make sure all is well before we set out.
I need NAF and Whtwulf to check in on the previews and then I need to finalize all the characters.
Mine is pretty much done, should be interesting.
I'm here, I'm here! Um, my character still doesn't have a name, I am open to suggestions from the group here if anyone has a good hobbity name they want to suggest.
Do you feel like being related to one of the named families in the canon? There are plenty of them - Bolger, Brandybuck, Chubb, Grubb, Gamgee, Cotton, Goold, Goodchild, Bracegirdle, Banks, Burrows, Boffin and Roper, just to leave out the surnames that have already appeared in the campaign (Took, Fairbairn and Proudfoot that I can think of for a start). Any sort of "vaguely rustic" English forename would do.
Actually he is a Maggot. His mom was a Took. He is another 1st cousin to Mulligan in fact and nephew to Pippin.Quote:
Originally posted by Malacandra
He is the son of Kenden Maggot and Pervinca Took. Pippin is therefore his Uncle.
Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
Right, sorry, I should have been more specific. I need a first name. But I like the suggestion of "vaguely rustic", I'm gonna go look up baby names that seem old fashioned and foresty.
Some English names come from the Bible (Adam, Benjamin, David, Jacob, Joseph) and some from Saints (Anthony, Christopher, Francis, George, Gregory, Stephen). You could look at Gaelic names, but how about one from Tolkien .. Giles (as in Farmer Giles of Ham)?Quote:
Originally posted by NAF1138
Oh, I like Giles better than what I have come up with so far. So far my favorites have been Nairn and Fosco (Fosco is actually from Tolkien I think, Nairn is either Welsh or Gaelic, I don't remember which anymore).
But Giles Maggot has a good ring to it. Nairn doesn't quite have the right feel and Fosco sounds a little sillier than I think I am going for with this guy (who I am thinking of as somewhat curmudgeonly from having spent too much time alone in the woods.)
So, what next then?
I'm missing WhtWulf, I'll call him tonight when I get a chance. Otherwise we're short a Dwarf and a Healer but I can make both NPCs for a while with ease. I also need to finalize all the new characters. Maybe this weekend I can get the adventure started. That an I also need to make the SDMB adventure start a priority, it has been on hold longer.
Let me know when you want Macsalin to make a short speech to the party. :smile:
Actually discussions on how the party can work together here in this thread can only help the next adventure.
Keep the fighters close in, where they can get healing when needed and keep the foe away from me - oh, and our new Healer. We should not worry over much about enemy magic with an area of effect - if they are powerful enough for that we are in deep trouble whatever we do. Respect poison but do not be terrified of its mere rumour; I can deal with poison very well if I am forewarned, close at hand and unwounded (rather less well if I am wearing two clothyards of Orcish artillery ammunition). Use Sabert as a centre point - his holy aura may as well protect three or four of us rather than just himself. Use heavy-armoured troops to keep our archers out of melee even if it means the heavies take a few extra blows - that is why they have armour and plenty of vitality. Carry eight of my goodberries apiece for emergency healing and return them to me at day's end, I have a pouch to keep them fresh in and can rotate my stock so that it lasts as long as possible. Treat prisoners gently - if word gets around that it is useless to surrender, every foe will fight to the very last drop of blood. Give enemies the chance to run away - same reason.
I'm fine with the treat prisoners kindly and all. I'm not sure about the whole Stick to Sabert thing for protection though- I don't think the range of my protect from evil is very big. And apparently Evil Pianos can kill me or something?? From that last discussion between you guys... -_-
You're no more susceptible to pianos than the rest of us. :tongue: As to the Protection, the short range is the point - if we have three of us shoulder to shoulder with you in the middle, the other two are close enough to benefit, as is, perhaps, the combat medic clinging to your coat-tails. Only really important in a close-order melee, but we are likely to be in for some of that.
I agree with practically everything Malacandra said. Just two comments:
1. Scouting can bring in useful information about enemy dispositions (we have Macsalin and NAF's Hobbit to do this)
2. It was clear from players in the DM's tabletop group that they automatically believe that all Orc-kind should be exterminated. This is therefore a key point to agree and I already suggested this:
We stamp out Evil, killing all Orcs, Trolls and Undead. If they are too powerful, we retreat and ask Rivendell for help.
Using the example of that parallel compaign by our DM, if we get a weedy Evil informant (e.g. a goblin) who genuinely helps us (maps, enemy location etc), we send it back to the Elves outside (who will put it to work in a chain gang). Evil opponents who won't help will be swiftly executed.
3. Sabert has no need to worry about the piano! It was just an amusing example of a missile being dropped from the top of a cliff onto a character below.
4. However I would like to clear a point up about the Paladin's Protection from Evil 10' radius.
DM, did I get a previous discussion right?
The Paladin uses his Protection from Evil to affect Evil monsters by standing within 10' of them. His Protection from Evil has no effect on the party if the Paladin stands next to them, while the Evil monsters are more than 10' away.
(This interpretation is different from mine, and (I deduce) also from Malacandra's.)
The Protection vs Evil 10' offers a barrier to melee basically. Also only against strong evil. It does work against ranged attack spells though but not using TK to drop a large rock on your head.
There will be no Elves in support this time. Mascalin is it. There will be Dwarves in support.
OK, so Protection vs Evil 10' doesn't work against Orcs (because they're not Evil enough), nor against a very Evil opponent using missiles (because he's too far away from the Paladin), nor against spells from a very Evil opponent that do indirect damage?
Will the supporting Dwarves take an occasional co-operative prisoner outside and hand them over to the King's road-building gang?
Right, basically not a very useful ability of spell in my world.Quote:
Originally posted by glee
The Dwarves have no one to had a prisoner over to, but they are willing to put prisoners to work if they are cooperative to start with. Coal needs mining, might as well let willing goblins do some of it.
Quote:
Originally posted by glee
That's fine by Macsalin. Co-operative goblins can get fed while they do some useful work for the Dwarves.Quote:
Originally posted by What Exit?
Is this arrangement acceptable to the Rivendell authorities?
It is fine, they are just helping out their allies the Dwarves by helping to organize this party. This is not their mission per say.Quote:
Originally posted by glee
Well, I am not sure where we stand with WhtWulf. I've left him a PM and a voice message on his cell. If all are willing, I will try to put up the new adventure later today and run his character as an NPC for now.
Fine by me.
Thanks for your hard work - I know you're busy starting an adventure in 'another place'!
Can I check who we've got at present? (If this is basically correct, I'm happy for you to start as offered.
Glee: Macsalin, Elven Bard; Barazinbar, Dwarf Fighter
OneCentStamp: Theogrim, Rohan Knight
malacandra: Mellowbeorn, Beorning Druid
RoOsh: Sabert, Rohirrim Paladin
CatInASuit : Lyall Human Mage
NAF1138: Giles, Hobbit Ranger
Whutwulf: Dugar, Dwarf Fighter; ? , Human Cleric
NPC: Rüdan, Dwarf Fighter