Geez...kids, no kids, who the hell cares?

Is this harsh divide between people with kids and without as wide as it seems on the internet? It seems like blog & forum I read ends up at some point debating who's more selfish, who's more intolerant, who's more of a drain on society. Is this really such a big issue to people? Does anyone really care THAT much? Does anyone really choose their friends based on whether or not they have kids? Most of my friends I've had for at LEAST 10 or 15 years. 15 years ago, pretty much none of us had kids, now some of us do, some don't...nobody seems to decide who they're going to stay friends with based on choice of lifestyle.

So, is this internet-created drama? Or what?

Until Happy Babby cures cancer, I consider him -- and you, by extension -- an unforgivable drain on society, Sarah.

Meh, I have no real opinion either way. If you have kids? Cool, I'll be Crazy Aunty Angua to them. No kids? Great, we'll hang out and have a riot. Either works.

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Originally posted by Angua

Meh, I have no real opinion either way. If you have kids? Cool, I'll be Crazy Aunty Angua to them. No kids? Great, we'll hang out and have a riot. Either works.

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See? That's how I was before I had kids. And now I'm either like "let's get together with the kids" or "I'm gonna get my husband to watch the kids so we can go out!" You know, like, whatever.

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Originally posted by Exy

Until Happy Babby cures cancer, I consider him -- and you, by extension -- an unforgivable drain on society, Sarah.

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But he's the cutest little drain on society EVER. :)

Well, the childfree (or childless by choice, if you prefer) are like many other groups that don't have a huge statistical representation - if you're not familiar with them, or a part of the group, you only know about the loudest.

I'm what the most militant among them would call a fence-sitter, as in I'm maybe 80% sure I don't want children, but I don't want to say that I wouldn't change my mind sometime down the road under the right circumstances. When people ask, though, I tell them I don't want children, and I have never faced the backlash that some of these people claim to go through. Mostly people are just perplexed and don't understand it. People's mileage obviously varies a lot. Maybe I'm just lucky.

I have known one completely crazy child hating person in real life. She was one of my closest friends in college. Now, it seems like every other Facebook update from her is about how adorable her niece is. So, obviously, she grew out of it.

And I imagine that's how most people are. Sure, there are folks who dislike children, but they aren't stomping about IRL and making an issue of it. They might go through a phase where they're very outspoken about it. But the people who aren't mentally ill and are socially well-adjusted eventually get over it. They don't want kids, so they don't have them, but they can deal with the fact that they exist.

I don't think it's Internet-related drama. The only people who really get on my ass about the whole thing are people IRL. Both sets of my grandparents act like I have personally betrayed them by not procreating yet. My parents both send hints about wanting grandbabies, my sisters get in on the act. People at work think it's perfectly acceptable for them to ask for an explanation on my decision. Right now, I'm slightly warming to the thought of having kids, but there's no fucking way I was ready for children when I was 18 (when I got married) and I might be 30 before I finally make up my mind. But even though I wasn't ready, that hasn't stopped the aforementioned people from getting on my case about it. I imagine the very rabid and vocal childfree are not that way in a vacuum.

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Originally posted by Sarahfeena

See? That's how I was before I had kids. And now I'm either like "let's get together with the kids" or "I'm gonna get my husband to watch the kids so we can go out!" You know, like, whatever.

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Exactly! I'm pretty laid back about it all. Kids are kids. If they don't interact with adults other than their parents/teachers, they'll never learn about how to behave appropriately in different situations, IMO. And besides, if I can be Crazy Auntie Angua from when they're really little, I can geek them out whilst young!! ;)

I think vituperative commentary and divisions are seen more often on the internet than in real life. But there is a perfectly natural tendency to be closer friends with/spend more time with people whose interests are similar to your own. Kids have a big impact on how you want to spend your social time: if you don't have any, you might prefer an evening at the theatre followed by dinner at a sumptuous restaurant. If you have kids, you might say "good god! I can't afford the tickets or the babysitter and I'm on a diet because I haven't lost my pregnancy weight yet! But an afternoon at the zoo sure sounds like fun ... the paths there are stroller-friendly and my kids will eat the food at the cafeteria." So it isn't necessarily surprising if people tend to socialize more with others who have a similar childfree/child-encumbered status.

When I got to an age where most of my friends had kids and I did not, I felt a subtle "closing of the ranks" and it seemed to me that my friends with kids were less interested in my company, although I was perfectly happy to spend time with them. I can only theorize as to what might have been going on - but given my compete lack of interest (or ability to feign interest) in any aspect of having and raising kids, perhaps my friends thought I was selfish/poor company.

Now that I have a kid, I have not noticed the same process in reverse - all my childless friends seem perfectly happy to continue being friends with me, and I certainly enjoy their company just as much.

Whether my experience is typical, and whether you can draw any generalizations from it, I really don't know.

Well I don't care, my friends are a mix of parents and non-parents and single people. My oldest sister and I each had a pair of kids and my other sister and brother do not. My brother is still single and is likely to always be single.

As to the drain on society, that is also a good debate. The population does need to renew itself. My family and Sarah's family are self-sufficient and we both have only a pair of kids so no net gain in population, just replacements. ;) The drain consists of school taxes and an income tax deduction. I suspect Sarah and I both pay far more in taxes than average and again the value that taxpayers get for our kids should be two pairs of well cared for and education contributers to the tax base to help pay for the horrifically wasteful spending on previous generations. You should be damn thankful we are producing some useful cogs in the US economic system. Now families that are large and rely on government handouts, I could see your point about, but now we are talking about cold-hearted Republican Ideals. :)

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Originally posted by pepperlandgirl

I don't think it's Internet-related drama. The only people who really get on my ass about the whole thing are people IRL. Both sets of my grandparents act like I have personally betrayed them by not procreating yet. My parents both send hints about wanting grandbabies, my sisters get in on the act. People at work think it's perfectly acceptable for them to ask for an explanation on my decision. Right now, I'm slightly warming to the thought of having kids, but there's no fucking way I was ready for children when I was 18 (when I got married) and I might be 30 before I finally make up my mind. But even though I wasn't ready, that hasn't stopped the aforementioned people from getting on my case about it. I imagine the very rabid and vocal childfree are not that way in a vacuum.

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It's true that parents can put the pressure on when it comes to wanting grandkids, of course...I think that's pretty much universal, and god knows that people are always there with unsolicited advice on the subject.

But do people really leap from annoyance over this rudeness to hatred of parents and children altogether? Seems like a bit of an overreaction to me (and keep in mind that I had my first child at age 37, so I had my share of these kinds of comments, too).

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Originally posted by What Exit?

My family and Sarah's family are self-sufficient and we both have only a pair of kids so no net gain in population, just replacements.

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When you're talking about consuming resources, this isn't true. The kids aren't just replacing you if you're still alive and consuming, are they? Especially when you and your wife are likely to continue living until your kids have kids, and with life expectancy improving all the time, possibly until their kids have kids, etc.

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Originally posted by Taumpy

When you're talking about consuming resources, this isn't true. The kids aren't just replacing you if you're still alive and consuming, are they? Especially when you and your wife are likely to continue living until your kids have kids, and with life expectancy improving all the time, possibly until their kids have kids, etc.

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True, but we do need some replacement population, don't we? If we are to have them, is it not better they be brought up to be educated and hopefully positive contributers to society?

Well, of course. I wasn't arguing that. :)

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Originally posted by What Exit?

You should be damn thankful we are producing some useful cogs in the US economic system.

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This is the same attitude that was causing the issues in the threads on the Dope, if that's where the OP was coming from. One poster got his panties in a wad because we CF freeloaders to the system weren't bowing down to worship him/her for doing the "duty to society" that we were eschewing. That gets annoying fast.

Then someone else shat out these little gems, versions of which I've heard IRL:

Well, one day I fell in love, and got married. I wanted my husbands child. Its natural, I feel IMO something is wrong with people who don't. Sorry.

I do feel I am not out of them norm; how can you find the love of your life and not want to have their child? Tis all.

So, yeah, to an extent, I'm at least wary when meeting a parent. I've gotten the "my kid will be doing blah blah blah for you in the future" and "you're an abnormal freak who can't possibly love your husband" too many times to not be.

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Originally posted by Katriona

This is the same attitude that was causing the issues in the threads on the Dope, if that's where the OP was coming from. One poster got his panties in a wad because we CF freeloaders to the system weren't bowing down to worship him/her for doing the "duty to society" that we were eschewing. That gets annoying fast.

Then someone else shat out these little gems, versions of which I've heard IRL:

Well, one day I fell in love, and got married. I wanted my husbands child. Its natural, I feel IMO something is wrong with people who don't. Sorry.

I do feel I am not out of them norm; how can you find the love of your life and not want to have their child? Tis all.

So, yeah, to an extent, I'm at least wary when meeting a parent. I've gotten the "my kid will be doing blah blah blah for you in the future" and "you're an abnormal freak who can't possibly love your husband" too many times to not be.

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I have no problems with anyone else's decisions, I was defending my own actually in what I hope came across as light-hearted. Especially considering how rarely I will curse on the boards.

My brother is my best friend in the world. He will always be just an uncle and I see no problem with that. My oldest friend (not family) is also childless and likely to stay so at this point as he is 45 now. Another close friend has two kids almost the same ages as my own and all of the above were at my house for New Year's Eve. I have never perceived the child/no child debate outside of the boards. I don't even understand it really.

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Originally posted by Katriona

Then someone else shat out these little gems, versions of which I've heard IRL:

Well, one day I fell in love, and got married. I wanted my husbands child. Its natural, I feel IMO something is wrong with people who don't. Sorry.

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Oh, ugh. I hate these and I have gotten them IRL, too. Over the past year I've come the conclusion that I do want kids, but for most of my life up until this point I was pretty happily childfree. Aside from that sort of statement being annoying and offensive to the childfree, it's incredibly insulting to same sex partners, people with infertility problems, or those who are adopting. Not everybody is capable of or interested in that form of family and that's okay.

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Originally posted by Katriona

Then someone else shat out these little gems, versions of which I've heard IRL:

Well, one day I fell in love, and got married. I wanted my husbands child. Its natural, I feel IMO something is wrong with people who don't. Sorry.

I do feel I am not out of them norm; how can you find the love of your life and not want to have their child? Tis all.

So, yeah, to an extent, I'm at least wary when meeting a parent.

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Katriona, please don't think ALL parents are like that. I'm a parent, and those comments make me want to vomit. Copiously. Preferably on the shoes of the person who made them.

I'm a 45 year old childless straight male. I've never heard this issue off the internet. I think this is one of those things that women puff out their chest and mark their territory over.

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Originally posted by Hatshepsut

Katriona, please don't think ALL parents are like that. I'm a parent, and those comments make me want to vomit. Copiously. Preferably on the shoes of the person who made them.

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Oh, I know. It's just gotten really tiresome lately. I turned 40 last year and apparently that makes it open season. I'm not sure what brought it on, but it's been coming from all sides, even some I wouldn't have expected. And the thread on the Dope just wore out my last nerve.