Is Mexico being destroyed by the USA? (Outgrowth of a chat discussion)

In chat recently, we had an interesting concept raised.

The statement was made that Mexico is being destroyed by the USA. When asked how that was happening, one poster replied that the cartels making money by smuggling into the USA was bad. Another replied

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Well for one thing our insane war on drugs is what leads to most of the extreme violence in Mexico

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(sorry, the first reply had rolled off the chat before I could copy it)

So - what do you guys think? Is the USA destroying Mexico, or is it the other way around: is illegal immigration from Mexico destroying us?

I personally think that it is much more the second than the first. Illegal immigration is causing tremendous financial harm, especially to the border states. And I agree with the concept that what happens to the illegals in terms of lousy pay, unsafe working conditions, etc. is equivalent to modern day slavery.

I disagree with the comment on the war on drugs. That is not responsible for the violence along the border. What is responsible is the moronic attitude of our government in not allowing law enforcement to do its job correctly. I cite Ramos and Compean, and Gilmer Hernandez, as prime examples of that stupidity.

Your comments?

I think the simple answer is that illegal immigration does harm the US and keeps wages lower than they should be and puts a drain on social services in the Border States. However, I also think that cheap labor keeps some manufacturing in the Border States and their better paying jobs not being held by illegals.

I strongly think that if we ended the war on drugs we would pretty well destroy the main base of power of the cartels that cause the extreme violence in Mexico. Not to mention the overall benefits to our own country.

American immigration policy has always mystified me. I mean, sure you can disagree about the desired number of immigrants and the exact conditions for permits, but what seems so strange are people who are seem to be essentially pro illegal immigration although they probably wouldn't put it that way.

Somehow it raises the ugly suspicion that there are entrenched interests in keeping a group of second-class citizens - modern day metics - around.

Mexico's largest economic asset is drug manufacturing and distribution, and their next door neighbours ban their product! How can the USA not be holding Mexico down? If they'd been fortunate enough to have oil reserves in their geographic location, instead of coca plants, the US would likely be their best friends.

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Originally posted by What Exit?

I strongly think that if we ended the war on drugs we would pretty well destroy the main base of power of the cartels that cause the extreme violence in Mexico. Not to mention the overall benefits to our own country.

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I've heard this before, but I've never felt it's been properly explained. Care to tell me how ending the war on drugs would destroy the power of the cartels?

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Originally posted by Zuul

I've heard this before, but I've never felt it's been properly explained. Care to tell me how ending the war on drugs would destroy the power of the cartels?

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The only people who are producing the drugs now are the ones who want to risk dealing with law enforcement and other gangs. This can get violent and costly with smuggling Should drugs become legal and regulated now there is less risk involved and more people can enter the market. This essentially destroys the market for the cartels. These new producers don't have to spend money smuggling and bribing officials.

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Originally posted by Xan

The only people who are producing the drugs now are the ones who want to risk dealing with law enforcement and other gangs. This can get violent. Should drugs become legal and regulated now there is less risk involved and more people can enter the market. This essentially destroys the market for the cartels.

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But why would an honest person who wasn't willing to kill people want to enter a business that is already dominated by ruthless, powerful criminals? Making the drug sales legal wouldn't give them more competition. It would make it easier for them to focus their efforts on eliminating competition instead of law enforcement.

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Originally posted by Zuul

But why would an honest person who wasn't willing to kill people want to enter a business that is already dominated by ruthless, powerful criminals? Making the drug sales legal wouldn't give them more competition. It would make it easier for them to focus their efforts on eliminating competition instead of law enforcement.

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The cartels would be overtaken by megacorps quite honestly. I am not saying decriminalize, I am saying legalize and tax. Then the drug and tobacco companies would swoop in so fast the cartels would lose their income amazingly quick. Without the huge amount of money they make from the sales of illegal and thus inflated drugs, they could not sustain their militias.

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Originally posted by What Exit?

The cartels would be overtaken by megacorps quite honestly. I am not saying decriminalize, I am saying legalize and tax. Then the drug and tobacco companies would swoop in so fast the cartels would lose their income amazingly quick. Without the huge amount of money they make from the sales of illegal and thus inflated drugs, they could not sustain their militias.

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Yup, you'd have to be making a $1,000 a day minimum to want to be a drug cartel's soldier. Remove those $ incentives and they'd be harder to find.

BTW, I don’t want to sound like some wide eyed hippy (or is that red-eyed). I do not think legalizing drugs would end the cartels or the violence, I just think it would remove the primary income. The coyotes will still be plying their trade in getting illegals across. The cartels in a smaller form will still try to run prostitution, kidnapping and extortion but these activities are small potatoes compared to the drug business. I believe if the Mexican government really wanted to they could then seriously reduce the violence. If we sent over the aid we send to fight the War on Drugs, we could instead help them develop Mexico, raise their standard of living and decrease the want of illegals to cross over.

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Originally posted by What Exit?

The cartels would be overtaken by megacorps quite honestly. I am not saying decriminalize, I am saying legalize and tax. Then the drug and tobacco companies would swoop in so fast the cartels would lose their income amazingly quick. Without the huge amount of money they make from the sales of illegal and thus inflated drugs, they could not sustain their militias.

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Possibly, but this is an absolutely insane "what if" scenario, you realize. Our entire culture would have to be turned around for that to happen. If somehow they actually managed to get drugs legalized and taxed, the stigma associated with cocaine would have to evaporate before all of those megacorps could touch it and turn a profit without becoming just as corrupt as the cartels.

C'mon. Think about the commercials. "Phillip Morris: AT LEAST WE DON'T SELL COCAINE."

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Originally posted by Zuul

Possibly, but this is an absolutely insane "what if" scenario, you realize. Our entire culture would have to be turned around for that to happen. If somehow they actually managed to get drugs legalized and taxed, the stigma associated with cocaine would have to evaporate before all of those megacorps could touch it and turn a profit without becoming just as corrupt as the cartels.

C'mon. Think about the commercials. "Phillip Morris: AT LEAST WE DON'T SELL COCAINE."

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Maybe, but a business opportunity is a business opportunity. Corporate scruples are not great and once one jumped in, many others would. Alcohol, Tobacco and drug companies are already well geared for the business.

Maybe Ben & Jerry would start by selling clean organic New England Pot. :lol:

Why this is so, is silly though.

Mankind has always incorporated artificially induced states of mind into its lifestyles.

How convincing is the "proof" that cocaine is detrimental to health if taken in moderation? Same with heroin. From the stats I've read, most drug overdoses and fatalities arise through the inconsistencies in the street product.

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Originally posted by What Exit?

The cartels would be overtaken by megacorps quite honestly. I am not saying decriminalize, I am saying legalize and tax. Then the drug and tobacco companies would swoop in so fast the cartels would lose their income amazingly quick. Without the huge amount of money they make from the sales of illegal and thus inflated drugs, they could not sustain their militias.

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Besides methamphetamine Mexico dosen't produce much in the way of actual drugs anymore. Most of the drugs come directly from South America and they just use Mexico as a handy shipping point, being that they share a border with us and all. No more need to ship through Mexico, no more need for Mexican cartels. Legalization and direct importation would erase the need for them overnight.

However that would decimate Mexico's economy and leave tens of thousands of young heavily armed men with nothing to do. It's actually beneficial in a cold hearted way to have them killing each other instead of deciding on having a revolution that could spill over into US border towns.

Now are we destroying Mexico? No, the place has been a wreck since the Spanish pulled out. You can’t destroy something that was already a huge mess. And I’d say that our importing of our industry to Mexico is a mixed blessing. They have jobs, but they're shitty jobs that are causing huge amounts of damage to the Mexican ecosystem. Overall I'd say that buying goods made in Mexico is far more damaging in the long run than a few lines of blow here and there.

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Originally posted by Cluricaun

However that would decimate Mexico's economy and leave tens of thousands of young heavily armed men with nothing to do. It's actually beneficial in a cold hearted way to have them killing each other instead of deciding on having a revolution that could spill over into US border towns.

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Now that is a truly scary thought.

In the two states that I've lived in as an adult--Nevada and Wisconsin--I've seen industry rely very, very heavily on illegal immigrants or migrant workers from Mexico, who take on jobs at pay that you couldn't get away with giving to American citizens. If you could pay Americans that little, Americans would already be doing it.

I remember that in the Las Vegas metro area there were a lot of big home improvement stores where you could literally drive into the parking lot in your truck and grab half a dozen Mexicans or so to go do all of your home construction for you at a pittance.

Up here, most of the large dairy farms are largely automated with just a handful of Mexican immigrants doing the majority of the work that's still required of humans.

Now, they come here to escape poverty and crime back home. I can't fault them for that at all. But it's an ugly truth that by keeping them as a permanent legal underclass, America prospers.

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Originally posted by Clothahump

I personally think that it is much more the second than the first. Illegal immigration is causing tremendous financial harm, especially to the border states. And I agree with the concept that what happens to the illegals in terms of lousy pay, unsafe working conditions, etc. is equivalent to modern day slavery.

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It was my understanding from all I've read that these illegals contribute to the economies of these border states. I don't understand how they are causing financial harm. Can you explain how this is so please?

I don't have much to say that hasn't been said already but I'll try anyway. I know a lot of Americans aren't fond of mexicans all streaming over to find jobs and opportunity. Even less fond of those with criminal pasts doing criminal things in our country illegally. But Mexico is our neighbor, they should be our friends, and we should all of us in north america be the most steadfast of allies. The prosperity and happiness of our Mexican friends should be paramount to our maintaining of a comfortable security situation. This does not seem to be happening though.

It's our insatiable desire for drugs that gives the cartels so much money and so much power. Without our markets there would be little reason for them to fight wars along the northern border. It would be unprofitable for them to continue to murder, kidnap, rape, rob, and blackmail all of the civilians in northern Mexico. But obviously the US is not going to legalize drugs. So here we are. Something needs to be done, something to help our friends in Mexico beat back those who would unjustly rule their country. What that is though is beyond me. I don't think the US State Department knows either. Probably a first easy step would be to work on increasing the internal security of the Mexican army and police force. I've no clear idea how to do this.

Marketing could help. Increase the patrotic feelings of the average Mexican civilian. Give them a hero to look up to, and give them a tragedy to hate. Tell them that only through difficult times can their country regain its splendor.

anyway that's all i got. sorry if this is a disjointed post I'm working inbetween typing. I await any ideas people have on how to help mexico.

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Originally posted by An Gadaí

It was my understanding from all I've read that these illegals contribute to the economies of these border states. I don't understand how they are causing financial harm. Can you explain how this is so please?

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I believe the argument is that it's depriving natives of jobs and allowing the minimum wage to be kept far lower than it should be. Clothahump, want to come back and clarify? I don't want to misrepresent your position.

hatesfreedom, good points, particularly about marketing and national pride. I actually think that this is exactly what a number of Mexican filmmakers have been trying to do over the past few years.

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Originally posted by Zuul

I believe the argument is that it's depriving natives of jobs and allowing the minimum wage to be kept far lower than it should be. Clothahump, want to come back and clarify? I don't want to misrepresent your position.

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But that's not how economies work is it? They're not a zero-sum game.

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Originally posted by An Gadaí

But that's not how economies work is it? They're not a zero-sum game.

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Some businesses can only operate at a profit and thus pay those trained Accountant, Engineers, Programmers and Salesmen their good salaries by taking advantage of the cheap workforce that recent immigrants, legal and illegal provide. Many people choose between hiring an undocumented worker for housekeeping type work and not being able to afford help at all.

Considering my house is messy and my wife and I both work full time, I have considered the benefits of hiring a maid, no questions asked or at least a lawn service. So far I haven't but professional lawn-keeping services are really more expensive than I can justify. Housekeepers even more so. Also housekeepers/cleaning services have other inherent risks. Considering the cost of child care, I understand why people opt for Nannies and don't check documentation too well.

I don't think there is a simple answer to the questions of illegals. I do think the drug war though is the major factor contributing to the extreme violence in Mexico and crazy-high percentage of American's locked up.

I'm sure you could make an argument that there is too much illegal migration, that it is overwhelming social services in certain areas. Also you could make a cultural argument that somehow these migrants undermine American culture/values etc. as spurious as that might be. However, I don't think their economic activities are detrimental for the most part. There may be a few unskilled native born American workers who get shafted by the race to the bottom but the apparent answer to that is using the accident-of-birth of being American to get educated and skilled.

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Originally posted by Zuul

I believe the argument is that it's depriving natives of jobs and allowing the minimum wage to be kept far lower than it should be. Clothahump, want to come back and clarify? I don't want to misrepresent your position.

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I agree. In addition, we are wasting boatloads of tax dollars educating illegal children in the public schools; we pay welfare to the illegals that they did not earn; hospitals are shutting their doors because the illegals don't pay for medical treatment; and a huge percentage of the people in prison these days are illegals, and that burns tax dollars as well.

IMNSHO, we are not "saving" money by using cheap labor. It's costing us a bucket more than we are "saving".