Is it possible to be more stupid than The Valley Swim Club spokesman?

By now you've probably all heard the story of the black day camp children getting booted from the the lily white facilities of The Valley Swim Club even though their camp had paid to use the facilities, because they were told they might change the "complexion" of the place. (Story here).

But wait! There's more! The club is protesting that it had nothing to do with skin tone, but rather with the fact that there were too many kids and they were overwhelmed. I just saw on CNN that their excuse is "we underestimated the capacity of our facilities."

Yep. Unless CNN screwed up the quote, that's what their spokesman said.

Not only are these folks racist, they are stupid racists.*




* In fairness, there was an interview on CNN with a member who is calling for the resignation of the club president, so maybe they aren't all hopeless.

I don't get it.

Ugh, there's a six page Pit thread about it, and no matter how many times it happens (which is EVERY time, of course), I never cease to be amazed at the number of people who'll say "What? That's not racist! Complexion doesn't necessarily mean skin tone! Clearly this poor man is being persecuted for nuanced use of language!!!"

I'm generally a subscriber to the philosophy of "don't attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity", but really, people... seriously? Give me a fucking break.

My all time favorite was the people who absolutely insisted that the good folks at the RNC wearing the alligator hats with Obama dolls in the mouths were simply representing the University of Florida, and not making any reference to "gator bait". "Gator bait? Never heard of it. Y'all just crazy people." :roll:

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Originally posted by Diana

Ugh, there's a six page Pit thread about it, and no matter how many times it happens (which is EVERY time, of course), I never cease to be amazed at the number of people who'll say "What? That's not racist! Complexion doesn't necessarily mean skin tone! Clearly this poor man is being persecuted for nuanced use of language!!!"

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Oh, man. I can picture the thread, and it gives me a headache just to think about it. It's the "gator bait" thread and the "macaca" thread all over again. :smack :roll:

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Originally posted by Diana

Ugh, there's a six page Pit thread about it...

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I get that part, and I agree it was totally stupid, racist, and wrong. But in this thread CairoCarol seem to imply that this:

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But wait! There's more! The club is protesting that it had nothing to do with skin tone, but rather with the fact that there were too many kids and they were overwhelmed. I just saw on CNN that their excuse is "we underestimated the capacity of our facilities."

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... was an even more blaring indictment in addition to initial reporting of the incident.

I just read it as the guy saying that there was A LOT more kids then they expected so that's why they had to turn them away. A lie, sure. But if you're going to make up excuses to deflect away from the race part of the issue then simple pool and facility capacity sounds like a good one. That's why "I don't get it" in my second post.

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Originally posted by beebs

I don't get it.

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Aside from the dumb backpedalling, if they were overwhelmed because too many kids came, then they overestimated the capacity of their facilities.

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Originally posted by Diana

Ugh, there's a six page Pit thread about it, and no matter how many times it happens (which is EVERY time, of course), I never cease to be amazed at the number of people who'll say "What? That's not racist! Complexion doesn't necessarily mean skin tone! Clearly this poor man is being persecuted for nuanced use of language!!!"

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Yeah, well, ardent defense of racism is pretty typical of that place. There were plenty of people saying that there was nothing racist when Michael Richards did all that screaming about niggers.

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Originally posted by sublight

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Originally posted by beebs

I don't get it.

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Aside from the dumb backpedalling, if they were overwhelmed because too many kids came, then they overestimated the capacity of their facilities.

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Exactly. You'd think that after having their language backfire so monumentally the first time they said something, they'd take a deep breath and review their words carefully before releasing any further commentary on the matter. But apparently not.

The thing is, I am willing to cut them some slack and believe there may be a grain of truth to the idea that it was just too many disruptive kids splashing around regardless of race.

BUT:
- their systems are very stupid if they accepted the money and agreed to let the camp use their facilities without anyone noticing or evaluating whether this would work.

- use of the term "complexion" (which I'm betting was a Freudian slip because the guy was very nervous and was trying to speak in a refined, gentlemanly tone) was fantastically stupid.

- since the kids were already there, they should have been allowed to stay. If the club wanted to avoid a repeat, they should have privately talked with the camp organizers about working it out in advance of future visits (if any were planned); maybe splitting the kids into groups, finding a different location which was more suitable, or something. But it appears that the response was more or less "get out!" not "oops, we didn't realize your group was so large; our mistake, but can we work with you to figure out an alternative for the next time you all come?"

We need VC03 here to explain that black folks don't swim.

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Originally posted by jali

We need VC03 here to explain that black folks don't swim.

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I don't even get the joke, and I think that's hilarious.

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Originally posted by CairoCarol

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Originally posted by jali

We need VC03 here to explain that black folks don't swim.

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I don't even get the joke, and I think that's hilarious.

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VC03 = old SDMB troll who claimed to be "fascinated" by black people, and would start threads asking stuff like:

Why don't black people drink coffee?
Why don't black people swim?
Why do black people bother getting tattoos?
Why don't black people like to go camping?

People would invariably point out that either his assertions were flawed, or call him a racist. And he would act all shocked. He was a one-note Charlie, but in hindsight, it was a pretty funny note. :smile:

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Originally posted by jali

We need VC03 here to explain that black folks don't swim.

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:D Bwa ha ha ha ha yeah!

Thanks, OneCentStamp. I think on some subconscious level I remembered that, which is why I laughed even though I couldn't figure out why.

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Originally posted by jali

We need VC03 here to explain that black folks don't swim.

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Funny you mention that...

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"It was just too many kids on top of each other," said Duesler, whose Huntingdon Valley, Pa., club has been tabbed for a racial discrimination investigation by a state agency. "Many of them couldn't swim."

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Could this guy be any more transparent? (And can certain Dopers be any more ignorant about it? Nah, we already know the answer to that.)

This makes me think of a scene from Caddyshack. In fact, this whole incident could form the core of a crazy summer comedy about a scrappy bunch of underdog kids.

As for the club president, I wonder what was going on in his head a second after the word "complexion" left his mouth. Unless -- was that a written statement? If so, then -- Sleeping Jesus, pal, what the fuck is wrong with you?

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Originally posted by Baldwin

As for the club president, I wonder what was going on in his head a second after the word "complexion" left his mouth. Unless -- was that a written statement? If so, then -- Sleeping Jesus, pal, what the fuck is wrong with you?

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These people are what are known around here as genteel racists. They would never, ever use a racial slur and would tell you in loud, offended terms how offended they are by your (generic 'you,' of course) usage. But when they suddenly found themselves a racial minority, they would be highly uncomfortable, and they would engage in a lot of avoidance so as not to have to deal with their discomfort. They'd be more than willing to engage in a conversation about how "they" do this or that, all the while exclaiming that their "best friends are black," but always in hushed tones.

This reminds me of many, many years ago when the day care my mom worked at wanted to bring the kids to this church's summer camp (or vacation bible camp). When the church found out there were black kids in the group (which was rather duh, since we lived in a town that was about 50/50 white/black), they didn't want the day care to come. I don't know the outcome; I was just old enough to know it happened, not old enough to keep up with events.

Yes. It is possible.

How's about a teacher's union working to get a teacher back into teaching in front of a classroom, after he had been part of a bargaining agreement where he agreed to give up day-to-day contact with students after one of the parents found out he was molesting her child? And get this: The idiots did that before the statute of limitations ran out!

How's about a politician claiming that she believes her suspended sentencing for DWI will make her more effective as the chair of the Assembly's Drug and Alcohol commission? (Better still, how's about the idiots who keep voting her back in office?)

How's about someone claiming that his sole problems with mobility are because of his brain condition, not because he hasn't done any exercise for the past 10 years?

How's about students on a suspended sentence for underaged drinking taking pictures of themselves drinking booze, while still underaged, and posting them on the Web. With the caption saying: "F*** You, [Judge's Name]!"?

Then there's the NYS Senate.

Sorry, Carol - all you've got is a local stupidity maximum there. Not a world-champion contender.

Ah, the "my best friend is black!" defense. Why do I always hear that as "They make great pets!"

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Originally posted by OtakuLoki

Yes. It is possible.

<snip>
Sorry, Carol - all you've got is a local stupidity maximum there. Not a world-champion contender.

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True; my rhetorical flourish overstated the case. But as an editor, I found the misuse of language - in a situation where anyone with a modicum of sense would have triple-checked the statement before releasing it - highly amusing.

I always wondered why, in a box of pastels or other colouring devices, "flesh tone" is always pinkish. Like me. I mean, it was cool and all, but even as a pretty clueless 8 year old that struck me as strange when George Singh, sitting next to me in class, was as brown as tea.

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Originally posted by vison

George Singh, sitting next to me in class, was as brown as tea.

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Except for when he was feeling ill, in which case he was as green as tea?

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Originally posted by CairoCarol

True; my rhetorical flourish overstated the case. But as an editor, I found the misuse of language - in a situation where anyone with a modicum of sense would have triple-checked the statement before releasing it - highly amusing.

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By all means: Mock the stupidity. I join you in laughing and shaking my head at the faux marathon[sup:2hy04ms6]1[/sup:2hy04ms6] that spokesperson was making.




[sup:2hy04ms6]1[/sup:2hy04ms6]He wasn't making a single false step, he was running a good long while down the wrong road...

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Originally posted by vison

I always wondered why, in a box of pastels or other colouring devices, "flesh tone" is always pinkish. Like me. I mean, it was cool and all, but even as a pretty clueless 8 year old that struck me as strange when George Singh, sitting next to me in class, was as brown as tea.

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You must have been 8 a long time ago, Crayola changed the name of the "Flesh" colored crayon back in 1962. Band Aids OTOH took a while longer and now just uses "Nude", but clearly not everyone is Band Aid colored when naked, which thanks to extensive research on Redtube I can now say with certainty.

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Originally posted by Whiskey and Ryan

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Originally posted by vison

I always wondered why, in a box of pastels or other colouring devices, "flesh tone" is always pinkish. Like me. I mean, it was cool and all, but even as a pretty clueless 8 year old that struck me as strange when George Singh, sitting next to me in class, was as brown as tea.

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You must have been 8 a long time ago, Crayola changed the name of the "Flesh" colored crayon back in 1962. Band Aids OTOH took a while longer and now just uses "Nude", but clearly not everyone is Band Aid colored when naked, which thanks to extensive research on Redtube I can now say with certainty.

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I can't say for certain, but I am almost *SURE* I had flesh colored crayons in my brand new boxes for a while there, and I was born in 1972... :???: ETA: Maybe it is that teachers and other grownups called the peach crayon "flesh" though? I can at least remember that one of the crayons was referred to in such a way, but I believe I also read the flesh label on the crayon itself.

No, I agree. I was born in 1971, and I'm certain that "flesh" was still a Crayola color when I was a kid.

ETA that Googling produces several cites that "flesh" was indeed changed to "peach" in 1962, which doesn't make me even one tiny bit less sure that I saw crayons named "flesh". Maybe someone was giving me ten year old boxes of crayons?

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Originally posted by Diana

No, I agree. I was born in 1971, and I'm certain that "flesh" was still a Crayola color when I was a kid.

ETA that Googling produces several cites that "flesh" was indeed changed to "peach" in 1962, which doesn't make me even one tiny bit less sure that I saw crayons named "flesh". Maybe someone was giving me ten year old boxes of crayons?

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I was born 12 years after you, and my memory is that the crayon was labeled "Peach (Flesh)".

I dropped a lot of acid in kindergarten, though, so I could be remembering things that didn't happen.

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Originally posted by Excalibur

I was born 12 years after you, and my memory is that the crayon was labeled "Peach (Flesh)".

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It’s odd that you say that, because I’m pretty sure that when I was a tyke that the crayon in question said the same thing but internet research had convinced me that I was probably remembering some ancient crayons at my grandma’s house instead of my own crayons and I’m not that much older than you are.

One thing to consider: Crayola is the name brand. Not all schools would pay for the name brand version, if there were an acceptable off brand. I have no trouble believing that some other crayon company, of which I remember several from school, might have had 'flesh' colored crayons in their boxes.

Nope, we had to buy our own crayons as school supplies when I was a kid and I know that I got a fresh box of Crayola 64 every year.

Yeah, I'm sure mine were Crayola, too. Crayons are one of those things where the off-brands really do tend to suck, or at least they used to. It's been a long time since I bought crayons.

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Originally posted by Diana

Yeah, I'm sure mine were Crayola, too. Crayons are one of those things where the off-brands really do tend to suck, or at least they used to. It's been a long time since I bought crayons.

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You should work on that. It's good for the soul to buy new crayons and dig on that nostalgic new crayon smell. :hoj:

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Originally posted by Whiskey and Ryan

Nope, we had to buy our own crayons as school supplies when I was a kid and I know that I got a fresh box of Crayola 64 every year.

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Yep, we had to buy our own supplies, and Mom made sure we had Crayola crayons.

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Originally posted by Whiskey and Ryan

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Originally posted by Diana

Yeah, I'm sure mine were Crayola, too. Crayons are one of those things where the off-brands really do tend to suck, or at least they used to. It's been a long time since I bought crayons.

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You should work on that. It's good for the soul to buy new crayons and dig on that nostalgic new crayon smell. :hoj:

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I still use Crayolas from time to time, but I am pissy at the Crayola company at the same time. THEY PUT WAX INTO THEIR COLORED PENCILS! :eek: :mad: :sad: I can't afford Prisma, so I have to make do with waxy colored pencils. Bleh! Colored pencils didn't used to have wax in them, back when homework involved coloring in maps with colored pencils. When did they put wax into them?! Horrid!

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Originally posted by Whiskey and Ryan

It's good for the soul to buy new crayons and dig on that nostalgic new crayon smell.

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Not to mention the new crayon taste, fresh out of the box.

Yeah, I was 8 in 1952, kids.

Used to ride my dinosaur to school and tie him to the big tree behind the outhouse.

When I started my job at the school, I was given a box of flesh toned crayons. These crayons ranged from "Lily white" to "Dude, I can't see you in the dark".

And then they melted in the car, into one glorious amalgamation of skin tones.

Truly, we are a melting pot.

I was born in 1982 and I'm pretty certain I had Crayolla crayons labeled "Flesh."

When they said it "changed the complexion" of the pool I thought they were racist. But after the second quote, where they "underestimated' the capacity of their pool, I think they are probably just really dumb. They may be racist as well, but the evidence definitely points to "dumb."

ETA pls ecuse typos I dropped my keybaord into the bathtub

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Originally posted by Diana

Ah, the "my best friend is black!" defense. Why do I always hear that as "They make great pets!"

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Boy. That's sumpin' . " My son's classmate's mom's sister-in-law once had a conversation with a black woman in Wal-Mart." :roll:

Latest I'm seeing is the ironic statement that they cannot afford a lawsuit.

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I wish we had it all to do all over again.

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Yeah. I bet you do, babycakes. Wonder how you'd alter the entry qualifications. 60 kids of... a certain....zip code? Digital photos of each of the 60 visitors must be submitted in advance because of uh....um.... Oh! Got it ! For Homeland Security reasons, all visitors must be pre-approved. For you know, the safety of America and 9/11 and such.

There.

That'd work.

Wonder what will be built on the spot after the club declares Chapter 11.

My crayons had names like "honky" and "cracker." I can't remember the brand.

I want to say that while I think that the swim club behaved abhominably, and deserves censure, I'm not too impressed with the day care talking about the kids being scarred, and permanently harmed. If a single exposure to assholes, measured in hours, is all that it takes to scar kids for life I think that something is pretty FUBARed.

Contractual obligations, and the lack of opportunity to find a new pool, all seem good enough to sue the shit out of these assholes. Why tell the kids that they've been scarred, to pump up your awards?

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Originally posted by OtakuLoki

I want to say that while I think that the swim club behaved abhominably, and deserves censure, I'm not too impressed with the day care talking about the kids being scarred, and permanently harmed. If a single exposure to assholes, measured in hours, is all that it takes to scar kids for life I think that something is pretty FUBARed.

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I agree with this. It smacks of opportunism / victimhood on the part of the camp, and sets a horrible example for the kids. They should be taught to rise above such nonsense and try to be stronger for it.

But do you feel there should be a legal response?

IANAL, but as I understand it the question is whether they are public or private. Private clubs are legally free to discriminate, however vile their attitudes may be. But the manner in which this club accepts bookings seems to place it in the public sphere, in which case discriminatory behavior breaks the law and they can be prosecuted. If that assertion is correct, then I'd say to throw the book at them.

If you are asking whether I think the daycamp should bring a civil suit against the club for millions of dollars in damages based on pain and suffering, probably not. The club should be punished, no question, but it seems to me that the derision they've been subjected to is probably perfectly adequate to achieve that.

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Originally posted by CairoCarol

If you are asking whether I think the daycamp should bring a civil suit against the club for millions of dollars in damages based on pain and suffering, probably not. The club should be punished, no question, but it seems to me that the derision they've been subjected to is probably perfectly adequate to achieve that.

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I do think that there should be a monetary punishment, as well. Mainly because my view of selective social groups is that they'll find ways to rationalize criticism from outsiders as being invalid or otherwise not applicable. To train proper behavior into organizations, like mules*, it is necessary to get their attention first. Monetary loss is about the only thing that I trust to certainly get an organization's attention.




* For anyone not familiar with the aphorism: Mules are easily trained, once you get their attention by breaking a two-by-four over their heads.

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Originally posted by OtakuLoki

I want to say that while I think that the swim club behaved abhominably, and deserves censure, I'm not too impressed with the day care talking about the kids being scarred, and permanently harmed. If a single exposure to assholes, measured in hours, is all that it takes to scar kids for life I think that something is pretty FUBARed.

Contractual obligations, and the lack of opportunity to find a new pool, all seem good enough to sue the shit out of these assholes. Why tell the kids that they've been scarred, to pump up your awards?

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I think probably being the victim of racism DOES impact on people's emotional state; maybe you find "scarred" hyperbolic but I'm sure it leaves some sort of lasting impression. And it's a pretty significant, salient example of racism, which is probably different from just seeing a white person clutch their purse a little tighter or something like that.

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Originally posted by CairoCarol

If you are asking whether I think the daycamp should bring a civil suit against the club for millions of dollars in damages based on pain and suffering, probably not. The club should be punished, no question, but it seems to me that the derision they've been subjected to is probably perfectly adequate to achieve that.

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I haven't been following so I could have missed this, but have they indicated that they plan to do something like that?

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Originally posted by Excalibur

I haven't been following so I could have missed this, but have they indicated that they plan to do something like that?

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Not that I know of, but I haven't been paying attention for the last couple of days.

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Originally posted by Excalibur

I think probably being the victim of racism DOES impact on people's emotional state; maybe you find "scarred" hyperbolic but I'm sure it leaves some sort of lasting impression. And it's a pretty significant, salient example of racism, which is probably different from just seeing a white person clutch their purse a little tighter or something like that.

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I have no trouble believing that being a victim of racism, or any other kind of prejudice or outright abuse, is going to have an effect. I'm less convinced that this incident, alone, would be sufficient to meet my personal standards for scarring - which I'd take to mean permanent, uncorrectable damage. I object to the hyperbole. Beyond that, however, I'm going to have to recuse myself from further discussion of this point. I don't think I can judge it rationally.