Ask a Pagan

Anyone have any questions for a random polytheist?*

I can't claim to explain things about paganism in general (if such a thing even exists), but I'll do my best to field questions about my beliefs and how I arrived at them. I thought I'd throw this out there because what people think when they hear 'pagan' and what I am actually like are not very similar.

A preliminary answer to a question no one's asked:

Since I live in a city, I don't have the requisite yard space for a Wicker Man. I'm currently putting together plans for a wicker-rat, or possibly a wicker-pigeon.

*My only request would be that this not turn into a battleground for round 10¹¹²³¹ of Atheism v. Theism: The Argument That Wouldn't Die.

What kind of a pagan are you- Wiccan, Generic Nature believer, Witch, Non-Christian but using the term to rebel vs. the Christians, etc?

I don't belong to any organized group, so I guess "generic" about covers it.

I'm certainly not interested in deliberately antagonizing Christians. I like most Christians I know personally.

Where were the pagan gods before the Earth was formed?

Here is a question I've wondered about for a while now, you may be able to answer it or you may not, perhaps it is more of a question for a Wiccan specifically than for a Pagan generally but:

Given the recyclability and reclamation of metals is there any point where a base metal, say copper, becomes so amalgamated with other coppers that it is unusable and unsanctifiable?

i.e. Can I reclaim wire windings from an old motor, smelt them with old pennys and the starter contacts from a 1971 Cutlass, and reforge them into something ceremoniously sanctified like a bowl or dagger or something?

Like I said, it may be more of a specific question for one who practices such things and I don't want to make any assumptions about your practices and rites, but I figured I'd toss it out there anyway.

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

Where were the pagan gods before the Earth was formed?

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Hmm. Haven't thought much about that before.

My first thought is that they were one with the Brahman. (Not that I'm a Hindu, just that Hinduism has the most succinct term for the concept.)

Dangerously, I'm afraid I don't know. Honestly, I can't see why the provenance of the metal would matter once the new object has been created, but as you say, I'm not a Wiccan. I'm also not much of a ritualist.

This is a question I could ask of a practioner of any religion: Do you believe the god or gods of your religion literally exist in the universe we're inhabiting? If so, I won't argue about it; I'm just curious.

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Originally posted by Baldwin

Do you believe the god or gods of your religion literally exist in the universe we're inhabiting?

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Yes. Well, yes about the existing. The "in the universe we're inhabiting" thing is a bit more ... fuzzy.

How did you come to your beliefs?

A more general question. What exactly do you believe? Assume I know nothing at all about paganism, it's probably a safe assumption.

Also, this was touched on a bit in an earlier question but Pagan is kind of generic isn't it? Do you think of yourself as "pagan" or is there a more specific subset that you personally identify as?

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Originally posted by Caerie

How did you come to your beliefs?

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I suppose it was the result of too much reading.

I was raised Lutheran, and was fairly pious as a kid. But I was also big into reading about mythology and folk stories and world history so I kept running into the question of "what about all these people praying to Thor, or Shiva, or Pacha Mama?" Why would God focus all of His attention on such a small geographical area? It never made sense to me, and no one was ever able to give me a satisfactory explanation.

As I got older, I just thought it made sense for the Divine to express itself in multiple ways, since different people and cultures have such different ways of looking at the world.

I didn't start thinking of myself as a pagan until I stopped being a Christian, when I was about 13 or 14. I had to admit that as much as I liked a lot of his teachings, I didn't believe that Jesus was the eternally begotten son of God, nor did I believe that he literally rose from the dead. (There was also the whole business of humans being naturally sinful and requiring 'redemption' just for being human which never sat well with me, but that's all kind of a side-track.)

So that's the thinking side of it. The feeling side of boils down to this: I have experienced what I consider to be a connection to the divine a few times in my life, and that divine has not always had the same voice or personality.

(Apologies in advance for my poor vocabulary where this is concerned.) How much do you believe in the supernatural? What I mean is, the prayers/spells/whatever you call them, so you believe they affect the material world in perceptible ways, do they have effects on the world that we can't perceive (like maybe affecting invisible spirits or forces), or are they strictly internal (e.g. bring you inner peace, etc.)?

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Originally posted by NAF1138

What exactly do you believe? Assume I know nothing at all about paganism, it's probably a safe assumption.

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I believe there is a divine/spiritual aspect to existence. I believe that this aspect can express itself in many ways, sometimes with personalities.

I believe that the purpose of such personalities (i.e. deities) is to assist people in improving or understanding their relationship with the world around them, or with other people.

For me, it is much easier to feel a connection with the divine out in nature. Particularly forests.

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Originally posted by NAF1138

Do you think of yourself as "pagan" or is there a more specific subset that you personally identify as?

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I don't identify myself as anything more specific. My beliefs are too eclectic and/or nebulous for that. Also, religion is a personal endeavor for me, not a communal one.

I hope this doesn't all sound like utter blathery nonsense!

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Originally posted by OneCentStamp

How much do you believe in the supernatural? What I mean is, the prayers/spells/whatever you call them, so you believe they affect the material world in perceptible ways, do they have effects on the world that we can't perceive (like maybe affecting invisible spirits or forces), or are they strictly internal (e.g. bring you inner peace, etc.)?

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I believe that Supernatural is my very favorite TV show. :tongue:

But seriously, while I do believe in "invisible forces", I don't pray with the intention of affecting the physical world*. Prayer for me as an act of communion, a way for me to focus myself for a specific course of action, or a variety of other kinds of mental wrangling.

* I think this in particular is a difference between me and the average Wiccan, say.

Would it make much difference in your life if you woke up and decided that spirits, etc. were all imaginary constructs, with no existence outside of people's heads? It sounds to me like you've got a nice philosophy with a sidecar of meditation; you don't need any spooks or gods for that.

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Originally posted by Dangerously Unqualified

Here is a question I've wondered about for a while now, you may be able to answer it or you may not, perhaps it is more of a question for a Wiccan specifically than for a Pagan generally but:

Given the recyclability and reclamation of metals is there any point where a base metal, say copper, becomes so amalgamated with other coppers that it is unusable and unsanctifiable?

i.e. Can I reclaim wire windings from an old motor, smelt them with old pennys and the starter contacts from a 1971 Cutlass, and reforge them into something ceremoniously sanctified like a bowl or dagger or something?

Like I said, it may be more of a specific question for one who practices such things and I don't want to make any assumptions about your practices and rites, but I figured I'd toss it out there anyway.

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My take on it, as a solo practitioner so pragmatic I often shock the shit out of my more traditional compatriots, I say it's all about your intent. Should you use those metals, regardless of their traditional purity, if your will is sufficiently focused you should be able to bind your tools to your use. Then again, I'll grab whatever's handy if I need it--it's a lens, not the thing itself, y'know?

I was also raised Lutheran and took a detour through the wilds of Jehovah's Witnessland until it became intolerable to me that the Abrahamic religions acknowledge no meaningful female principle and thus by definition must always be unbalanced and not representative of reality on even the most basic level--which then casts all sorts of doubt on their claims of higher moral authority. That pervasive intolerance, hostility, anger, blame and dismissiveness towards women that is the hallmark of the People of the Book is something I can't handle and I don't give a shit how many Christian/Muslim/Jewish apologists try to weasel out of it, their religions disrespect women. I have too much self esteem to worship a god who finds me inferior based on my gender and will not lend my aid and energy to a religious system that does the same.

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Originally posted by Dangerously Unqualified

i.e. Can I reclaim wire windings from an old motor, smelt them with old pennys and the starter contacts from a 1971 Cutlass, and reforge them into something ceremoniously sanctified like a bowl or dagger or something?

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I know many Wiccans who would be delighted with such a ritual bowl or dagger; bonus points are given for creative recycling. I know plenty of neopagan Hermetics who would be gaga over them, argue for two weeks if they should be tools of Venus or The Sun, Hermes or Hephaestus, and then place an order for a dozen.

If one doubts their "cleanliness" in an energetic sense, once can leave them under running water or buried in earth for a mooncycle and they'll be considered clean again. Consecrate and an it harm none, do as thou wilt.

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Originally posted by Baldwin

Would it make much difference in your life if you woke up and decided that spirits, etc. were all imaginary constructs, with no existence outside of people's heads? It sounds to me like you've got a nice philosophy with a sidecar of meditation; you don't need any spooks or gods for that.

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Honestly, no, it probably wouldn't make much outward difference. But it's not just something you wake up and decide, you know? Whether or not I need the gods or the "spooks", I believe they are there.

And thanks, WhyNot and SmartAleq, for giving Dangerously Unqualified a proper answer (i.e. one from people who know what they're talking about)!

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Originally posted by SmartAleq

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Originally posted by Dangerously Unqualified

Here is a question I've wondered about for a while now, you may be able to answer it or you may not, perhaps it is more of a question for a Wiccan specifically than for a Pagan generally but:

Given the recyclability and reclamation of metals is there any point where a base metal, say copper, becomes so amalgamated with other coppers that it is unusable and unsanctifiable?

i.e. Can I reclaim wire windings from an old motor, smelt them with old pennys and the starter contacts from a 1971 Cutlass, and reforge them into something ceremoniously sanctified like a bowl or dagger or something?

Like I said, it may be more of a specific question for one who practices such things and I don't want to make any assumptions about your practices and rites, but I figured I'd toss it out there anyway.

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My take on it, as a solo practitioner so pragmatic I often shock the shit out of my more traditional compatriots, I say it's all about your intent. Should you use those metals, regardless of their traditional purity, if your will is sufficiently focused you should be able to bind your tools to your use. Then again, I'll grab whatever's handy if I need it--it's a lens, not the thing itself, y'know?

I was also raised Lutheran and took a detour through the wilds of Jehovah's Witnessland until it became intolerable to me that the Abrahamic religions acknowledge no meaningful female principle and thus by definition must always be unbalanced and not representative of reality on even the most basic level--which then casts all sorts of doubt on their claims of higher moral authority. That pervasive intolerance, hostility, anger, blame and dismissiveness towards women that is the hallmark of the People of the Book is something I can't handle and I don't give a shit how many Christian/Muslim/Jewish apologists try to weasel out of it, their religions disrespect women. I have too much self esteem to worship a god who finds me inferior based on my gender and will not lend my aid and energy to a religious system that does the same.

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But what if it turns out they're right; what if the God of Abraham exists, and whatever god/gods/thing you worship doesn't?

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Originally posted by Baldwin

But what if it turns out they're right; what if the God of Abraham exists, and whatever god/gods/thing you worship doesn't?

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You mean a variant on Pascal's Wager? There are problems with that, too - if you pick the wrong version of worship of the God of Abraham, you may well be out of luck.

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Originally posted by Ferret Herder

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Originally posted by Baldwin

But what if it turns out they're right; what if the God of Abraham exists, and whatever god/gods/thing you worship doesn't?

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You mean a variant on Pascal's Wager? There are problems with that, too - if you pick the wrong version of worship of the God of Abraham, you may well be out of luck.

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Not exactly; I guess I'm thinking that, if one is to pick a religion, the choice should be based on whether you think it reflects how the universe works in reality, not on whether it makes you feel good. My ex-wife has done that; she's gone back to Catholicism, even though its picture of the universe displeases her; somehow her insane brain has decided that it describes reality, so there she is.

ETA: Orual, my apologies; didn't intend to hijack your thread.

I do have another question: Have you ever gotten a really negative or bigoted reaction from somebody, based on your beliefs or practices?

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Originally posted by Baldwin

I do have another question: Have you ever gotten a really negative or bigoted reaction from somebody, based on your beliefs or practices?

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No, not really. This is probably due to the fact that I mostly keep it to myself. Religion isn't something I jump to in casual conversation or with casual acquaintances.

I wear a pendant that incorporates a pentacle in the design. I've never gotten more than a passing comment on it. I've also spent the bulk of my adult life living in big, liberal cities (Boston and San Francisco). That's also a factor.

A former mentor turned enemy who died of terminal stupidity in his early 30's once described the "gods" as follows;

Imagine the Collective Unconscious of the Human Race as something of a huge computer network like the Internet. The gods are like independent programs operating in that network, free to move from one computer to another (one person to another) and in a large number of people at once, where they exist by sharing (using, "feeding off" if you're feeling particularly non-charitable) the mental resources of each individual in much the same way an independent non-centralized program operating over the internet could do.

In other words, they don't "exist" in the physical sense. They exist only within the Collective Unconscious - a mental construct existing independently in the unconscious mental network of Humanity - but able to access, enter or influence any person in that network.

Now, you can argue all you want as to whether or not such a thing exists, and I'm not interested in hijacking this thread to argue it. I'm merely mentioning one person's opinion on the subject.

Or a similar way of looking at it, god could be like a universal hard drive, capable of storing every emotion, experience, and manifestation of reality/consciousness within it, and humanity is either the pinnacle of its 'database providers', or a work still in progress.

Maybe if we all managed to think/feel the same way about something, and finally found our common ground, the program would shut down, and everything would wink out of existence, and another cosmic experiment would begin?

Although, at our current rate, finding 'common ground' doesn't look like occurring anytime soon.

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Originally posted by Baldwin

But what if it turns out they're right; what if the God of Abraham exists, and whatever god/gods/thing you worship doesn't?

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What kind of convictions would mine be if I were to throw them over and embrace a philosophy I found to be morally abhorrent just to save my skin? Therefore it makes no difference, those religions are not and never will be right FOR ME, regardless of where they stand in the actual cosmological truth sweepstakes. I will not lend them my approval, my energy or my goodwill regardless of my personal consequences.

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Originally posted by SmartAleq

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Originally posted by Baldwin

But what if it turns out they're right; what if the God of Abraham exists, and whatever god/gods/thing you worship doesn't?

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What kind of convictions would mine be if I were to throw them over and embrace a philosophy I found to be morally abhorrent just to save my skin? Therefore it makes no difference, those religions are not and never will be right FOR ME, regardless of where they stand in the actual cosmological truth sweepstakes. I will not lend them my approval, my energy or my goodwill regardless of my personal consequences.

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I'm not talking about philosophy, just facts. If it were somehow proven that Yahweh existed, I still wouldn't worship him, but I'd have to acknowledge the facts. Maybe the key for a lot of religious people is an ability to believe in what pleases them, regardless of contraindicatory facts. (Though as noted, my ex-wife has exchanged an irrational belief that pleased her for a different irrational belief that she's not as happy with. She's kind of backsliding, though, at least as far as being a cafeteria Catholic.)

Well, for all of that, I'd say that if there were factual, empirical evidence of Yahweh's existence then I'd just say "cool, that means it's more likely than not that ALL the gods exist," but it still wouldn't change my point of view, my habits or my religion. God of Abraham is a dick and I already have enough obnoxious pricks in my life, thanks.

That's a good point. All that proof of the big bearded dude would mean is that one (or more) of three very specific religions may be partially correct. There's still a whole lot of doubt there, and by itself it says nothing about any other religion (except as to their exclusivity).

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Originally posted by ulfhjorr

There's still a whole lot of doubt there, and by itself it says nothing about any other religion (except as to their exclusivity).

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And when there's nothing in your religion about exclusivity to begin with, it all becomes kind of "eh".

Anyone have any other paganism related questions? Or should we continue with the theological thought-experiments*?



*It turns out, after death, your soul is devoured by the Great Cthulu. What do you do. What do you do?

Okay.

Paganism? Meh! What's in it for me? Would I be right in thinking it is more like an appreciation of your natural surroundings, than a code of conduct to live your life by?

My judgement of a religion would always favour the most simplified expression of its meaning; the more morals, proselytising and historical justification of its existence, the more corrupted by human influence it would be.

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

Paganism? Meh! What's in it for me?

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If you order within the next 30 minutes, we'll send you Paganism, the Apostasy attachment, and two kegs of 80-proof Witches' Brew. And a ShamWow!

Seriously though, my intention here is merely to explain myself, not to convince other people to think the way I do. I am not a fan of proselytizing either.

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

Would I be right in thinking it is more like an appreciation of your natural surroundings, than a code of conduct to live your life by?

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It's closer to the former than the latter certainly. That doesn't mean I don't have a moral code of conduct. I think ethical behavior is a worthwhile pursuit in and of itself; which for me, boils down to being honest and trustworthy, and treating others with consideration and respect. Which is more than enough of a challenge.

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

Okay.

Paganism? Meh! What's in it for me? Would I be right in thinking it is more like an appreciation of your natural surroundings, than a code of conduct to live your life by?

My judgement of a religion would always favour the most simplified expression of its meaning; the more morals, proselytising and historical justification of its existence, the more corrupted by human influence it would be.

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It's all about balance. We look to the natural world to see the myriad examples of how systems balance each other and how each tiny part does its bit to make the whole work. We see how lack of balance leads to stress and unhappiness and damage and evil. We acknowledge that every light has to have its dark, every good its bad, every health its illness, every female its male. We strive to bring ourselves into balance with our own natures and those around us, and we use our wills to influence our surroundings into greater harmony. Sometimes we intentionally create disharmony in order to bring greater balance in the long run. Nature is our teacher, not our god.

And on top of all that, your 'churches' are forest glades and other natural beauty spots.

It sounds like there are a lot of Far Eastern 'Earth worship' type ideas involved in paganism. Does it have any parallels with the ideas of feng shui and that sort of 'oneness with nature' kind of a philosophy?

If there's anything valuable or useful about religion in the first place, isn't it that it encourages people to rise a little bit above themselves, treat other people well, be part of a community, and so forth? A religion that is essentially based around "believing in" whatever is momentarily appealing to each adherent would seem to be incompatible with the virtues that people see in real religions, since there's really no aspect of challenging oneself by adhering to a system of ethics that may require effort to hold to, or by engaging in fasting or other tough but (supposedly) fulfilling shows of devotion.

Also, does it ever seem disrespectful to take the religious beliefs of other people -- deities that they actually did believe existed, or ceremonies that they really did think were necessary, or whatever -- and sort of process it all through your own preexisting values and cultural biases into one homogeneous mass whose parts don't even really resemble those of the religious traditions they were co-opted from?

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

It sounds like there are a lot of Far Eastern 'Earth worship' type ideas involved in paganism. Does it have any parallels with the ideas of feng shui and that sort of 'oneness with nature' kind of a philosophy?

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Feng shui has nothing to do with "earth worship".

Mind if I butt in again? Excalibur always asks such good questions, I can't resist!

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Originally posted by Excalibur

If there's anything valuable or useful about religion in the first place, isn't it that it encourages people to rise a little bit above themselves, treat other people well, be part of a community, and so forth?

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No, I don't think so. I think that's a particularly Christian Protestant view of religion. I think people can and should do that quite well, perhaps better, without religion.

My religion is all for me. It's about giving myself the time, space and permission to explore, to relax, to feel good and bad in turn. It gives me a framework for understanding myself, the natural world, and the rhythms and tides of humanity and the universe. When I examine them, I see how the one relates to the other, and the cycles of a day, a year, a lifetime and a civilization are all so very similar, only the scale differs. What use is that? Well, one, I just find it neato. But two, it gives me a clue of when "this too, shall pass" and when, "aw, HELLS NO!" are each appropriate reactions. If something doesn't fit the cycle, it may be considered out of balance and worth extra care or examination.

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Also, does it ever seem disrespectful to take the religious beliefs of other people -- deities that they actually did believe existed, or ceremonies that they really did think were necessary, or whatever -- and sort of process it all through your own preexisting values and cultural biases into one homogeneous mass whose parts don't even really resemble those of the religious traditions they were co-opted from?

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Good question! Yes, it does sometimes. I used to write and perform a lot of group ritual work, and it's something I was always aware of. I have two thoughts to share on that topic: one is that most ritual elements are uncopyrightable. I don't mean that in just a legalistic sense, I mean that, in a historical sense, it's almost always impossible to find out who did anything first, or why. Most of what I'm stealing was previously stolen, and will probably be "stolen" by people at my circles in turn. At some point, I think it becomes public domain, in both the legal and spiritual sense. Because of this, I don't think anyone has a right to exclusive use of spiritual materials, ideas or deities. I believe that anyone who can make use of them should, and anyone who I deem unworthy won't find them useful, anyhow. I'm not a fan of occultism in the sense of hiding stuff, although I do honor my vows and don't share things I learned under vows of secrecy.

Secondly, I think that bells and whistles and tales change over time as the needs of the tellers change. When I was young, the story of Persephone was that she was kidnapped and raped by Hades, and later tricked into eating the seeds of the pomegranate, sealing her fate to reside, unwilling, in the underworld, for 3 or 6 months out of the year. In the past 10 years, the story's changed. Every time I've heard it, from different storytellers to different circles, Persephone is seduced by Hades, chooses to go to the Underworld with him, shares a pomegranate with him, and doesn't want to leave until Demeter forces the Gods to demand it lest the Earth be cursed and barren. It's an entirely different story, with the same names and general plot. Something in us, right now, needs a story of a powerful young woman escaping the domineering mother, or perhaps the story of a mother learning to let go of her daughter, instead of a young powerless woman subjugated by a man. So are we co-opting the story? Are we twisting it and making it false? Or are we using familiar archetypes to speak to our current Truth? I haven't entirely decided, to be honest, but I think it's something worth pondering.

Excalibur, I will answer your questions, I just need get caught up at work first.

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Originally posted by Orual

Excalibur, I will answer your questions, I just need get caught up at work first.

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Okay, but don't feel you have to, I wasn't really expecting a serious response.

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Originally posted by Excalibur

Also, does it ever seem disrespectful to take the religious beliefs of other people -- deities that they actually did believe existed, or ceremonies that they really did think were necessary, or whatever -- and sort of process it all through your own preexisting values and cultural biases into one homogeneous mass whose parts don't even really resemble those of the religious traditions they were co-opted from?

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A good point. I wonder if the Christians will now come to the defense of their faith...

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Originally posted by Excalibur

Also, does it ever seem disrespectful to take the religious beliefs of other people -- deities that they actually did believe existed, or ceremonies that they really did think were necessary, or whatever -- and sort of process it all through your own preexisting values and cultural biases into one homogeneous mass whose parts don't even really resemble those of the religious traditions they were co-opted from?

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Perhaps this might be the crucial dividing line between Christians and pagans--is it the function of the person to serve the religion or the religion to serve the person? No sensible pagan would argue against the point that every experience, every insight, every point of view is necessarily colored by individual experience and bias such that there is NO One True Way, only many true ways, as many as there are people and each person may have a variety of possible true ways available to her along with a myriad of false ones as well. The crucial lesson pagans take from the example of nature is that everything is infinitely mutable, changeable and unique while the whole remains pretty much unaltered by the teeming multiplicity it incorporates. No need to go to war over ideology--why would it threaten me that you worship differently? Even the high priest and priestess of the same coven will STILL be worshipping differently from each other even as they chant in unison, if only because one is representing the female principle and one the male.

That flexibility of view, lack of dogmatic insistence on rituals that don't sing for us and the the willingness to value the diversity other individuals bring to the table rather than seeing it as a challenge or a devaluing is not a weakness but a strength.

I guess pagans attend a self-taught individual studies program whereas Christians have to study for the final and might run afoul of a proctor having a bad day. :tongue:

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Originally posted by SmartAleq

NO One True Way

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Right, but if it's all whatever you personally find appealing, doesn't that pretty necessarily mean none of it is actually real?

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Originally posted by Excalibur

If there's anything valuable or useful about religion in the first place, isn't it that it encourages people to rise a little bit above themselves, treat other people well, be part of a community, and so forth? A religion that is essentially based around "believing in" whatever is momentarily appealing to each adherent would seem to be incompatible with the virtues that people see in real religions, since there's really no aspect of challenging oneself by adhering to a system of ethics that may require effort to hold to, or by engaging in fasting or other tough but (supposedly) fulfilling shows of devotion.

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To be perfectly honest, I think it would be better for everyone if the tie between ethics/morality and religious could be severed all together. Tying the idea of what makes a good person to holding a particular set of beliefs about the divine has led to all manner of unpleasantness in the world.

Being “a part of a community” has never been a requirement of any faith I know of: all religions have their hermits. The folk who prefer to pray in closets, as it were.

I don’t think I am “believing in” whatever is “momentarily appealing”, though I’m not sure there’s any way to convince you of that. My essential beliefs haven’t changed in nearly a decade, longer for my core moral values. My ethics do require effort on my part, and as far as religious practices are concerned, meditation is quite a challenge for me – I’m not very good at focusing or quieting down my brain.

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Originally posted by Excalibur

Also, does it ever seem disrespectful to take the religious beliefs of other people -- deities that they actually did believe existed, or ceremonies that they really did think were necessary, or whatever -- and sort of process it all through your own preexisting values and cultural biases into one homogeneous mass whose parts don't even really resemble those of the religious traditions they were co-opted from?

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Again you are asserting that I somehow don’t “actually” believe in deities, despite the fact that I have said that I do. But as for the question: no. Every single person on earth processes everything they experience through their own values and cultural biases. It’s part of being human. The people of the ancient world had no problem at all co-opting deities from each other: the Greeks, the Romans, and the Celts all did it. Heck, Jesus is considered a bodhisattva by some people.

It’s incredibly difficult not to filter pagan beliefs through modern thought. For the most part, we don’t even know really what the ancient practices were, really. There are reconstructionists, groups who try to keep their practices as much in line with the ancient ones as possible, but in many ways it’s not possible. How do you recreate the way religion was intrinsic to all aspects of private and public life in a time and place like ancient Greece? (And I’ve never yet heard of the Hellenic Reconstructionists sacrificing a hecatomb to Zeus. Can you imagine how much that would cost?)

The bottom line is: we’re human. Our brains are not identical. Therefore, it follows that our perceptions of the world will not be identical.

I’m going to steal an analogy from Christopher Moore (from Lamb, a wonderful book about Jesus learning kung fu, yoga, and how to make cappuccinos). He used it do describe parables, but I’m going to use it for religions in general: when you point something out to a cat, the cat doesn’t look at what you’re pointing at; it looks at your hand. As far as I’m concerned, humanity is a bunch of cats, looking at a bunch of different hands, all pointing at the same spot.

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Originally posted by Excalibur

Okay, but don't feel you have to, I wasn't really expecting a serious response.

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Well, apparently you hit on a couple of points that made people chatty. Oops.

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Originally posted by Excalibur

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Originally posted by SmartAleq

NO One True Way

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Right, but if it's all whatever you personally find appealing, doesn't that pretty necessarily mean none of it is actually real?

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No. It means that everybody's got it a little bit wrong. But everybody's got it a bit right too. The world isn't only made up of binary opposites.

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

Does it have any parallels with the ideas of feng shui and that sort of 'oneness with nature' kind of a philosophy?

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All I know about feng shui is that it's a way to charge twice as much for interior decorating. I'm afraid I'm not very up on Chinese religions.

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Originally posted by Orual

All I know about feng shui is that it's a way to charge twice as much for interior decorating. I'm afraid I'm not very up on Chinese religions.

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Someone once described the development of feng shui to me as some dude a couple thousand years ago in China who said, "Gee, I wonder what would happen if we stopped storing the dead bodies in the drinking water?" and then got a little overexcited about the results. :tongue:

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Originally posted by Excalibur

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Originally posted by SmartAleq

NO One True Way

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Right, but if it's all whatever you personally find appealing, doesn't that pretty necessarily mean none of it is actually real?

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Well, really, what difference does it make? What is real and who decides? I'm pretty sure YOU think you're real, but from my perspective you could be a bot or a fairly chatty Turing mod, so which of us is right about you? Answer--both of us are, and probably neither of us are in the cosmic scheme of things. Do I need validation from anyone else that my choice of path is right or wrong? Nope, because I was born alone and I'll die alone and in between I have to make my own path, step by step. Can I learn from others and value their input? Yes, but it's always my final decision as to what happens with my life and nobody else can ever take that cup from me, nor would I want anyone else deciding my path. I don't need anyone else to agree with me, my own personal universe has its own gods and forces that are no doubt totally different from yours, and that's cool as long as you don't try to fuck about in my universe using the rules unique to yours--it won't work and it'll just piss me off.

Also, I wouldn't assume I find everything about my path appealing--quite a lot of it is hard and something I'd rather not do, but I do it because it's RIGHT to do so regardless of my personal liking for my tasks and obligations.

SmartAleq, your post inspired a spin-off thread, if you'd care to join me...

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Originally posted by WhyNot

Someone once described the development of feng shui to me as some dude a couple thousand years ago in China who said, "Gee, I wonder what would happen if we stopped storing the dead bodies in the drinking water?" and then got a little overexcited about the results. :tongue:

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There's some other thread around here or maybe at GiBo or somewhere where someone makes a point that for whatever reason, nowadays we find it extremely appealing to try to come up with rational purposes for various (ancient or non-western) cultural practices like feng shui or, say, the Kosher law, but that these explanations usually don't really generally hold much water and involve a lot of twisting things around to justify them.

My general opinion feng shui (which was originally a lot less oriented around interior decorating and a lot more about building locations) has no rational purpose like hygiene or even aesthetically pleasing decoration. I think it's a mistake to try to understand practices like feng shui by justifying them according to our own values.

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Originally posted by SmartAleq

Well, really, what difference does it make? What is real and who decides? I'm pretty sure YOU think you're real, but from my perspective you could be a bot or a fairly chatty Turing mod, so which of us is right about you? Answer--both of us are, and probably neither of us are in the cosmic scheme of things.

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Well, no. That's not what "real" means. If you reject objective reality, I guess I have no way to convince you otherwise, and I guess there's no reason to try to conform your understanding of the world to the real world if there is no real world. But, since I don't, I can comfortably say that I'm not a computer program, and if anyone says otherwise they are wrong. And if someone does say that, and I deny it, we can't both be right or "sort of" right. There's an actual world out there, and while it's true that we perceive it in a limited way, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that we can't figure out a lot of things about it.

Is that it? I mean, I guess there's not really any reason to try to figure out if you're actually praying or worshiping or performing ceremonies for a real deity if you don't believe in the notion of objective reality. Is that really the case? Because as far as I can see, we can't all be right about religion. Both Christianity and Islam, for instance, prescribe their faith universally (in contrast with, say, Judaism, or Hinduism, which don't place any importance on converting outsiders.) Christianity and Islam say different things about the world; they make different claims about history; they involve different laws. It's simply not possible for a Christian and a Muslim to both be right. They could well both be wrong, but they just can't both be right, because their believes are mutually contradictory.

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Originally posted by SmartAleq

Also, I wouldn't assume I find everything about my path appealing--quite a lot of it is hard and something I'd rather not do, but I do it because it's RIGHT to do so regardless of my personal liking for my tasks and obligations.

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You made up a religion that is unappealing to you? Why in the world would you do that?

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Originally posted by Excalibur

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Originally posted by SmartAleq

Also, I wouldn't assume I find everything about my path appealing--quite a lot of it is hard and something I'd rather not do, but I do it because it's RIGHT to do so regardless of my personal liking for my tasks and obligations.

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You made up a religion that is unappealing to you? Why in the world would you do that?

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Y'know what dude? I've been responding to you in good faith, but you're getting right up on the tight, close border of insulting--perhaps you might want to step back a bit in order to keep this a civil discussion?

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Originally posted by SmartAleq

Y'know what dude? I've been responding to you in good faith, but you're getting right up on the tight, close border of insulting--perhaps you might want to step back a bit in order to keep this a civil discussion?

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Sorry, but it's hard to come up with an interpretation of your words here which I, at least, can really take seriously. I mean, would it be better if I humored you?

If your religious beliefs are different from other people's -- which, as far as I can tell, is true of most or all neopagans -- then what are the possibilities? One is that you personally received a revelation; you are more intimately aware with the divine than other people. Obviously I would be skeptical of anyone who claimed to have experienced a divine revelation, but it's certainly conceivable. God could come to me in a dream or a burning bush or whatever and tell me I have to eat a pound of Lima beans every day, and I certainly wouldn't enjoy that.

But if you are not somehow uniquely aware of the nature and desires of God/the Gods/whatever, then why would there be any need to impose upon yourself some obligation that you don't enjoy? If you believe your Gods don't really care what exact religious obligations you undertake, why would you undertake something unpleasant? I'm not about to start eating a pound of Lima beans a day to make Vishnu happy if I have no reason to think it'll make Vishnu any happier.

What other explanation is there? As far as I can tell you don't believe you understand the Gods' will for us better than the rest of us (leaving you uniquely aware of some holy obligation that you don't enjoy). The Gods just don't really care whether or not you keep Kosher/fast on Fridays/wear a hair shirt/whatever, right? Because they're not necessarily unhappy at me for not doing it, are they? In which case, what's in it for you to do it? Or have your Gods kindly left me alone, while picking unlucky you out for some special, unpleasant mission?

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Originally posted by Excalibur

I mean, I guess there's not really any reason to try to figure out if you're actually praying or worshiping or performing ceremonies for a real deity if you don't believe in the notion of objective reality. Is that really the case? Because as far as I can see, we can't all be right about religion. Both Christianity and Islam, for instance, prescribe their faith universally (in contrast with, say, Judaism, or Hinduism, which don't place any importance on converting outsiders.) Christianity and Islam say different things about the world; they make different claims about history; they involve different laws. It's simply not possible for a Christian and a Muslim to both be right. They could well both be wrong, but they just can't both be right, because their believes are mutually contradictory.

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Not all Christians claim theirs is the exclusive truth, not even all Christians claim their religion is the best for everyone. Ditto for Muslims. So if you ignore the fact that some folks claim their religion is *exclusively* right and the *only* way (because that's a different argument), then...

Why can't they all be right? I can give you a half-dozen different sets of directions to my house from a given location. Some of them are mutually contradictory. Nonetheless, they are all "right" and will get you there, several of them are even equally efficient. Some are better for cars, others for bikes/pedestrians; some are faster, others are more pleasant; one way may be more efficient this trip due to other stops, another may be better on a different trip. Which one is the right one?