Can/Should you raise a child "genderless?"

Here's an article about a couple who is trying to do just that. Personally, I think it's going to be a wasted effort on their part. I think gender is not something we "choose," and being born a particular sex and being the opposite gender (or neither gender) is something that happens no matter how much society treats the child like the gender they are perceiving them to be based on their sex. Therefore, I'm inclined to think treating them neutrally isn't going to give the child any more of an ability to choose it for themselves. I don't even think the kid's going to be confused, other than maybe over language that they hear other people using, and wondering why it doesn't apply to them. I think the kid's going to figure out all by themselves, like everyone else does, and that will be that.

I also think that it's not that hard to develop whatever talents a child has, without worrying about them being restricted by gender. I think the world will be a much more progressive place when both girls and boys are taught that they can do anything, and that they can embrace their gender at the same time. So, I kinda thing from that perspective they are barking up the wrong tree, as well.

Genderless? Like Justin Bieber?

I think that's really silly. It bothers me when people use their kids as sociological experiments and props in their attention-whoring.

This sounds really stupid to me. Sorry but I think these parents are on the road to screwing their child up more then the average parent.

This is not going to last long ... the first time a preschool aide accompanies little Storm to the toilet, the gender shall be revealed.

I think it's incredibly dumb to hide a child's gender as a means not to "limit" them. What's wrong with simply letting your boy or girl make choices undefined by gender? It is better to let your little "it" play with a doll, or let your son play with a doll?

There are also going to be some linguistic problems. Although it is probably a flaw of English, we don't have gender-neutral pronouns. So conversations are going to get a little odd as soon as Storm grows out of the four-month-old-baby-blob stage.

Mom: Where's Storm?
Sis: Storm peed in Storm's pants, so Joe took him or her to get another pair of pants. Because Storm is invited to his or her friend's birthday party, and Dad is driving him or her there in a few minutes.

On the plus side, I may send this article to my mother next time she accuses me of bad parenting (which won't take long). She needs to understand what *real* wacko parenting is.

Would I do it? Probably not. But I have a hard time getting too worked up about it because as someone said somewhere else, parents impose all sorts of psychological conditioning on children that we as a society view as ok. This is getting remarked upon because they're trying something different but if a parent said they weren't going to send their kid to Sunday School, depending on their social strata, no one would bat an eye. I'm pretty sure that Storm will figure it out pretty quickly.

I really can't see what the problem is with them trying to do this.

They are going to be giving their child two or three years free from gender stereotypes and the way that other kids and adults react to them. The kid gets to do whatever they like, whether it is play in the mud or play with dolls without any restriction to their behaviour from others saying they can/cannot do it because of their gender.

I think you are missing the point of the upbringing. It's not about the kids choice of gender, which they may still decide they don't like and get it changed later on. This is about preventing other people re-inforcing their own gender stereotypes on a young child, when they are at their most impressionable and learning things every day.

It would be lovely to say that it doesn't happen, but it does and this couple should be applauded for trying something new.

No, I get what they're trying to do, CIAS, but I think it's silly. Instead of people reacting one way or another, they'll act with surprise, confusion, and uncertainty of how to proceed or relate to the kid. I really don't see how that's better. The other thing that's interesting is that the parents know the kid's sex, and his/her brothers know, so there WILL be bias, because they have it just as much as the rest of us do. They didn't grow up in a magical world where they weren't subject to the same cultural and biological forces as everyone else, and the.y're the people s/he will be spending the most time with. They may not buy the kid gender-specific toys or clothes, but many people already do that, and I think the bias that really affects people is much more subtle, and much more likely to be communicated even by parents who think they're free of that kind of thing

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Originally posted by Hatshepsut

This is not going to last long ... the first time a preschool aide accompanies little Storm to the toilet, the gender shall be revealed.

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Since the parents are "unschooling", nobody in preschool is going to know the kid's sex. Gender, that'll be revealed when the kid reveals it.

There are gender neutral pronouns that are used by people deeply involved in gender theory and stuff like that. I find old Spivok the most pleasant (e/em/eirs), but "ze" seems to be the standard these days (ze/hir/hirs). I'm sure that parents like this would be well-acquainted with any of those pronouns and probably use them so that Storm's inner identity can develop without the imposition of a presumed identity or gender stereotypes.

Since the parents seem to be satisfied to let their older sons identify as male (even if their behavior doesn't perfectly match society's expectations), I imagine as soon as Storm is old enough to state a preference they'll accept it. Will the kids adopt more traditional gender expectations later on? Possibly. From the descriptions, it sound like even the older boys who were raised with their sex known are still pretty gender neutral, though. I don't think the older kids are going to impose gender stereotypes on Storm.

The gender neutral stuff isn't a big deal because the kid really will figure it out very quickly. The unschooling is what actually worries me about them being able to fit into society.

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Originally posted by Zuul

The gender neutral stuff isn't a big deal because the kid really will figure it out very quickly. The unschooling is what actually worries me about them being able to fit into society.

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Yeah, I didn't like school but I was a voracious learner, so I used to think unschooling sounded really cool. After reading quite a bit about it on the internet, I've decided that in about 99% of cases, it's a really bad idea.

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Originally posted by Sarahfeena

Instead of people reacting one way or another, they'll act with surprise, confusion, and uncertainty of how to proceed or relate to the kid. I really don't see how that's better.

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It will give the parents a chance to feel superior to the barbarians in the unenlightened society that surrounds them.

Unless these parents keep their kids away from other people all together (and it sounds like they might, what with the "unschooling" and all), those people are going to associate the kid with one gender or the other, no matter how neutrally the parents dress/present them. And that's not wrong, or evil.

Frankly the idea that merely telling a kid that they're a boy or a girl is locking them into restrictive 1950s gender roles forever seems really silly to me. The article says:

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The moment a child’s sex is announced, so begins the parade of pink and barrage of blue. Tutus and toy trucks aren’t far behind.

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This simply doesn't jibe with my experience, either as a kid, or in observing how my sister treats her kids.

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Originally posted by Sarahfeena

Yeah, I didn't like school but I was a voracious learner, so I used to think unschooling sounded really cool. After reading quite a bit about it on the internet, I've decided that in about 99% of cases, it's a really bad idea.

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Yeah, school can be brutal and school can hold some kids back...but it also pushes the majority of them forward. I was home-schooled and largely left to my own devices, but I was also a really unusual child and had a lot of social outlets. Unless these kids are also reading the encyclopedia for fun or creating particle simulations like my baby brother on top of going to play groups/clubs/church/any social interaction outside the home, I worry. Couple isolation with odd parenting and you're making things harder for the kids than they need to be.

You know, Zuul, besides obviously the social connections kids need, I think it's really the structure that's important for the vast majority of kids. Kids just don't tend to focus well in general, but giving them a framework for it helps a lot. And, there has to be an understanding, especially in math and science, of fundamentals and how one skill builds on another. Learning stuff like that needs logical progression and not haphazard jumping around, which is what I think unfortunately happens in a lot of situations where there is no curriculum at all.

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Originally posted by Orual

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Originally posted by Sarahfeena

Instead of people reacting one way or another, they'll act with surprise, confusion, and uncertainty of how to proceed or relate to the kid. I really don't see how that's better.

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It will give the parents a chance to feel superior to the barbarians in the unenlightened society that surrounds them.

Unless these parents keep their kids away from other people all together (and it sounds like they might, what with the "unschooling" and all), those people are going to associate the kid with one gender or the other, no matter how neutrally the parents dress/present them. And that's not wrong, or evil.

Frankly the idea that merely telling a kid that they're a boy or a girl is locking them into restrictive 1950s gender roles forever seems really silly to me. The article says:

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The moment a child’s sex is announced, so begins the parade of pink and barrage of blue. Tutus and toy trucks aren’t far behind.

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This simply doesn't jibe with my experience, either as a kid, or in observing how my sister treats her kids.

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Yeah, that gets back to what I was saying before...that many many modern parents don't do the girls=dolls, boys=trucks model of parenting. The way we transmit gender cues is much more subtle than that. For instance, studies have shown that if people know a baby's sex, they treat him or her differently without meaning to. For instance, if a baby boy learning to walk falls down, they tend to get put back on their feet, dusted off and sent on their way with a "you're fine!" Whereas with a baby girl in the same situation, people will tend to pick her up, kiss her, ask her if she's ok, that kind of thing. These are not things we consciously think about like what color t-shirt you're going to buy for the kid, and are much harder to avoid, even if you think you're totally unbiased.

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Originally posted by Sarahfeena

You know, Zuul, besides obviously the social connections kids need, I think it's really the structure that's important for the vast majority of kids. Kids just don't tend to focus well in general, but giving them a framework for it helps a lot. And, there has to be an understanding, especially in math and science, of fundamentals and how one skill builds on another. Learning stuff like that needs logical progression and not haphazard jumping around, which is what I think unfortunately happens in a lot of situations where there is no curriculum at all.

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I think that structure ends up being pretty important in any child-rearing, though, no matter how the kid is being educated. If Jazz and Storm are being sent to school wearing Snuggies because clothes are oppressive, man, and they don't have mealtime--they just graze from finger foods left out for them--and are allowed to sleep where and when they pass out, the school structure isn't going to help much. A structured home where there's "unschooling" going on could end up better than that, depending.

The thing is, I believe it really is possible to raise boys and girls without taking the whole gender issue too seriously. (I only have experience with a boy though; more on him in a moment.)

It's true that people clamor to know whether a child is a boy or a girl, but strangers cooing at babies also want to know how old s/he is; that doesn't mean there is some evil ageist agenda at work. It's just one of those things.

And since English, tragically enough, is lacking a gender neutral pronoun, we DO need to know gender in order to talk about a kid. Indonesian, incidentally, does have a gender-neutral pronoun, and it was my son's first language. It took him a really long time to use "he" and "she" properly in English, even though his linguistic development was awesome in every other way ... vocabulary, use of prepositions, understanding of tenses, etc.

Anyway, hiding a child's gender seems to me to make about as much sense as hiding his/her hair color or his nationality. We should be striving to be sure that people of ANY gender/orientation are not restricted by that fact. Stressing the need to hide it is pretty much giving in to the idea that it matters. If it doesn't matter, then don't hide it. Otherwise, we should hide blonde hair, too, because there is a silly stereotype that blondes are dumb, and we need to fight it by hiding blondeness!

And about my son. He's been raised to be whoever he wants to be, and we haven't imposed any "boys don't cry" or "you have to play with trucks" nonsense on him. He was allowed to play with trucks, dolls, etc. and made his own choices. (Dolls, not so much! But he did love the play kitchen we gave him.) One of my proudest moments as a parent was a few months ago when he came home extremely agitated because he had been arguing with a classmate on the schoolbus. My son is quite a pacifist, and generally not interested in pointless arguments with peers. But in this case he was extremely upset. Why? Because his classmate insisted that homosexuality is bad. My son, at age 12, was willing to be strong in the face of peer pressure in order to insist that there is absolutely nothing wrong with being gay (even though, I'm sorry to say, he has no gay role models in his life right now).

So don't tell ME that you have to deny what's between a child's legs in order to raise them as whole, decent people. On the contrary, I think if we stopped obsessing so much about the IMPORTANCE of that, we'd be a lot better off.

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Originally posted by Sarahfeena

For instance, if a baby boy learning to walk falls down, they tend to get put back on their feet, dusted off and sent on their way with a "you're fine!" Whereas with a baby girl in the same situation, people will tend to pick her up, kiss her, ask her if she's ok, that kind of thing. These are not things we consciously think about like what color t-shirt you're going to buy for the kid, and are much harder to avoid, even if you think you're totally unbiased.

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I guess I'm a horrible parent, then. Whenever my kid fell down while learning to walk, I quietly ignored it unless she actually hurt herself. She never hurt herself, so there never was any big deal made out of it. On the other hand, when she really does hurt herself or need attention, she's not scared to come ask for it. She just prefers to do her own thing most of the time.

Fast forward to yesterday, when she accused me of hitting her just so she could drag my wife out to get "medicine" (ice cream). I'm in Iraq. The ridiculousness of the story makes it hilarious, coupled with her laughing about it.

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Originally posted by Hatshepsut

Anyway, hiding a child's gender seems to me to make about as much sense as hiding his/her hair color or his nationality. We should be striving to be sure that people of ANY gender/orientation are not restricted by that fact. Stressing the need to hide it is pretty much giving in to the idea that it matters. If it doesn't matter, then don't hide it. Otherwise, we should hide blonde hair, too, because there is a silly stereotype that blondes are dumb, and we need to fight it by hiding blondeness!

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Very well said.

It seems to me that this family is most interested in keeping their children cut off from society in general. The whole article gave off a creepy, cultish vibe.

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Originally posted by hobbler

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Originally posted by Sarahfeena

For instance, if a baby boy learning to walk falls down, they tend to get put back on their feet, dusted off and sent on their way with a "you're fine!" Whereas with a baby girl in the same situation, people will tend to pick her up, kiss her, ask her if she's ok, that kind of thing. These are not things we consciously think about like what color t-shirt you're going to buy for the kid, and are much harder to avoid, even if you think you're totally unbiased.

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I guess I'm a horrible parent, then. Whenever my kid fell down while learning to walk, I quietly ignored it unless she actually hurt herself. She never hurt herself, so there never was any big deal made out of it. On the other hand, when she really does hurt herself or need attention, she's not scared to come ask for it. She just prefers to do her own thing most of the time.

Fast forward to yesterday, when she accused me of hitting her just so she could drag my wife out to get "medicine" (ice cream). I'm in Iraq. The ridiculousness of the story makes it hilarious, coupled with her laughing about it.

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ha ha, that doesn't make you a bad parent...I figure that's the best possible reaction. But whether a reaction is "good" or "bad" isn't really the point...no one said these SHOULD be the reactions, only that these tend to be the types of reactions that are observed. The point being that we all have ingrained cultural indoctrination that we aren't really aware of and don't have much control over. They go much, much deeper than pink vs. blue, and which of those these people are going to be communicating to this child despite their best efforts to the contrary is unknown. But I'll bet it's more than they think.

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“What we noticed is that parents make so many choices for their children. It’s obnoxious,” says Stocker.

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I hate helicopter parenting. Doesn't mean I recommend striving for the exact opposite. My goodness.

The best way to raise a child "genderless" is not to draw attention to the gender. Treat the kid as a kid, not as a boy or girl. But this, this just draws so much attention to the issue that it can't help but be the foremost agenda.

Oh, and as for their claim that "the best way to get to know someone is not ask what gender they are blah blah blah", I'm sorry, but babies have such little in the way of personality that only the parents and those close to them notice. Asking the gender is people's way of being nice, it shows they care more about your child than about the unseasonal coldfront rolling in. Besides, getting to know the kid more than as a baby with a gender would involve finding out the exact ratio each day of sleeping to pooping, and maybe some cute thing they do with their hands occasionally.

Eh, this only makes sense if for some reason you've forgotten that humans are actually just animals. I do think it's hilarious though.

“What we noticed is that parents make so many choices for their children. It’s obnoxious,” says Stocker.

HOLY SHIT

I just today decided that my kid should have a sandwich for lunch instead of a cupcake. Damn me making all those choices for them all the time.

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Originally posted by Sarahfeena

I just today decided that my kid should have a sandwich for lunch instead of a cupcake. Damn me making all those choices for them all the time.

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:wth: Fascist! What do you have against cupcakes?!? Everyone knows a child will always naturally desire to eat what he needs in the moment.

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Originally posted by Zuul

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Originally posted by Sarahfeena

I just today decided that my kid should have a sandwich for lunch instead of a cupcake. Damn me making all those choices for them all the time.

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:wtf: Fascist! What do you have against cupcakes?!? Everyone knows a child will always naturally desire to eat what he needs in the moment.

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Apparently the only things my children need are peanut butter and sugar.

Yes, that sounds about right.

SWMBO attempted it with her kids, a boy and a girl. She got neutral toys like blocks. The boy used the blocks to make guns. The girl built houses and made her own dolls. SWMBO gave up after that.

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Originally posted by Clothahump

SWMBO attempted it with her kids, a boy and a girl. She got neutral toys like blocks. The boy used the blocks to make guns. The girl built houses and made her own dolls. SWMBO gave up after that.

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The interesting question is, is that because these gender preferences are innate, or is it because they are so culturally ingrained that we transmit them to our children without meaning to?

While I think the particulars are culturally transmitted (and I'll continue thinking that until someone can find the gun gene), that sense of "these are things boys do, so I want to do them" seems pretty innate. By the time a kid knows what a gun is, he's probably also seen an image of a big strong man he'd like to emulate wielding one. Whether or not his parents have implied he should emulate that role is irrelevant. The kid has enough of a sense of self to latch onto particular images that appeal to him.

Yeah, I agree there's no gun gene, but on the other hand, there could be a "kill things" gene, which the kid associates with guns (which I guess is the culturally transmitted part). That's the thing I'm not sure of, though...is there a kill things gene, or is it more a matter of like you said, imitating people that he wants to relate to because they are male like he is?

I think individual personality plus imprinting on people who share their gender is what it comes down to, because nothing can possibly be simple when we're looking at human behavior.

My youngest niece comes to mind. She prefers playing with toy animals, trains and trucks over anything else. When my mother gave her a bunch of Barbie dolls, she made disparaging comments about how lame they were and insulted her friends who wanted to play with something so stupid. Yet she likes to put on dresses and wear makeup and wants to emulate the women she knows, even if she's not interested in "girly" toys. I wouldn't say there's any gender confusion or a desire to copy men going on, but there's a unique personality making itself known even while she tries to copy her mother and other women.