Printable View
My last few threads from been oddly Tolkien-free. I blame the Welsh.
I'll name a few points of divergence; pick whichever amuse you.
- Weathertop, by a Nazgul blade.
- Moria, by an Orc-sword.
- Parth-Galen, by an Uruk arrow.
- Helm's Deep, by a Dunlending arrow.
- Pelennor Fields, by an oliphaunt's tusk.
- The Black Gate, by an troll's fist.
Thoughts?
If Aragorn dies at any point in or before Moria, I think the War of the Ring is in trouble. Boromir wrests the ring from Frodo by force - maybe on the banks of the Anduin where he tried in the actual story, maybe before then - and takes it to Gondor. He either gives it to Denethor, or more likely by that point, tries to use it himself. Either way, the result is the same: a brief and futile struggle with Sauron, at the end of which the Dark Lord reclaims his own and dominates ME for another age.
After Moria, it's less crucial, because Boromir is gone and Aragorn parts ways with Frodo. I don't know if Aragorn's role after that is so crucial that Frodo's quest is in peril without his contributions.
If Aragorn dies after Moria, Merry and Pippin might not ever meet up with Gimli and Legolas. L & G would probably have a lot more trouble with the Rohirrim, if they did decide to track the Uruk-hai.
More later, work is interrupting.
The upshot of most of these is: Gondor is boned. Despite what movie-Boromir says, Gondor needs its king.
If he doesn't make it to Dunharrow and the Paths of the Dead, the Corsairs of Umbar make the battle of Pellenor Fields a whole different story. With no king AND no stewards (Faramir dies without Aragorn's magical medical know-how, even if Pippin is there to rescue him from Denethor's pyre), the rule of Gondor will pass to ... who? The prince of Dol Amroth?
Assuming Gandalf still carts the hobbits around, Merry's going to die of creeping Nazgul-itis. So is Eowyn.:gah:
Come to think of it, what would a lack of Aragorn do at Helm's Deep? Would there even be enough Rohirrim to go down to Gondor? Because no Rohirrim = no Eowyn/Merry tag-team = Happy Witch King continuing to fly around.
And that's enough dorking for now.
Aragorn rattled Sauron with the use of the Palantir. This was huge.
His bringing the dead against the Corsairs was part of what saved Minas Tirith as Orual pointed out.
No Aragorn and Helm's Deep would probably mean Rohan would have had no King as Theoden and Éomer both died trying to hold it. Saruman would still have lost but he would have done more harm first.
Now if Aragorn had died at Weathertop we have a different scenario. This was very early and Frodo probably would never have made it to Rivendell and in fact, the Ring probably would have fallen to the Nazgul. If the Ring did make it to Rivendell, the party that set out for Mordor would have been very different. I strongly suspect more Elves. In fact I suspect Glorfindel or perhaps both of Elrond's Sons would have went.
If Aragorn did not fall until the Black Gate, then Faramir would have ruled Gondor and probably taken the mantle of King. Gondor would have faded away much faster of course. The North would have probably repopulated but as many minor and petty kingdoms.
As I posted in the similar Straight Dope thread:
Aragorn is absolutely vital at several points of the story, and his premature death would have big - and disastrous - consequences for the Free Peoples. I could see some other Dunedain from a cadet branch maybe rising to claim the throne of Gondor, but even with Gandalf the White going to Plan B, there probably wouldn't be time before Minas Tirith fell and things totally fell apart. There would likely be a mass exodus of Elves to take ship into the West, with the Dwarves hunkering down in their cave-fortresses at Erebor and elsewhere, and the tattered remnants of the kingdoms of Men escaping into the wilderness, like Turin and his followers of old, to desperately keep fighting Sauron's victorious hordes.
If Frodo completed his quest, of course, some good might still be salvaged from the disaster, but the outlook would be pretty grim.
Alternate histories are always interesting, aren't they? Reading the posts above makes it clear in my mind that, for today at least, I accept the notion that "Aragorn is the real hero". Had he been killed, Sauron would have "won" and Middle Earth would have entered a very Dark Age indeed. Some new hero would eventually arise, I suppose.
Boromir would NEVER have given the Ring to Denethor. I still get furious thinking of the scene in the movie where Boromir picks up the Ring on its chain - and calmly gives it back to Frodo. Hah. Not a chance. He would have scarpered, immediatement.
If Aragorn had died, I don't think Frodo could have completed the quest, assuming that Aragorn died after parting with Frodo and Sam at Parth Galen. Aragorn understood fully that it was up to him to keep Sauron's eye on Gondor, not on the Gates of the Black Land.
According to Joseph Campbell, Aragorn is simply one of many people on a Hero's Journey that happens to coincide with others. He serves as mentor and protector to Frodo, who reciprocates as mentor to Aragorn. But Aragorn's death means a bunch of things, not the least of which is that he is the only one who can lead the Army of the Dead. They don't get involved, which means the bad guys take the field. Not a good scenario from any point of view.Quote:
Originally posted by vison
It is a good way to look at it.Quote:
Originally posted by Clothahump
Aragorn is the classic Hero. The great warrior, the King to be, the noble one.
Frodo is the child like one who finds bravery where unexpected and overcomes the greatest odds.
Samwise is the everyman hero.
Gandalf of course is primarily the Mentor but also literally the Deus Ex Machina as he is actually a messenger of God.
Eowyn is a tragic Hero and along with her even Merry gets to be a lesser Hero.
Legolas and Gimli round out the Fellowship and Pippin is mostly comic relief.
Boromir wants to be the Hero, wants to be the King, wants to be Noble but fails at all except in his death.
Boromir was completely ruined for me by Sean Bean and Peter Jackson.
Book Boromir was a great lord, Movie Boromir was . . . not.
I'm pretty good at ignoring the movie. My comments are based on the books and the Histories.
I disagree. He had accepted the ruling of the Council of Elrond, albeit with grave misgivings, that the Ring should be destroyed in Mount Doom, and pledged himself to the quest ("Gondor will see it done"). Although the Ring clearly fascinated him by the time he lifted it out of the snow on its chain, it still didn't quite have its hooks him so much by then that he would try to steal it in plain sight of Aragorn, Frodo and the rest of the party.Quote:
Originally posted by vison
And although Jackson made some mistakes, I thought Sean Bean made a very good, strong but conflicted Boromir.
I'm the exact opposite. I was never sympathetic to Boromir until I saw Mr. Bean's portrayal in the movies.Quote:
Originally posted by vison
We are doomed, doomed, doomed to disagree. :( I can't stand Sean Bean at the best of times, and when I saw that he was to play Boromir, I knew I was going to hate his take on Boromir.Quote:
Originally posted by Elendil's Heir
And Boromir never said anything as silly as "Gondor will see it done.":Shake: Jeez.:Shake:
eta: And it wouldn't have been "in plain sight". He would have donned the Ring . . .
Fool of a Took! You misspelled "identical." :)Quote:
Originally posted by Elendil's Heir
You misspelled "Sam."Quote:
Originally posted by vison
I didn't read LoTR until after I saw the first movie. I find Boromir extremely sympathetic. I've always taken it that the Ring was not appealing to any lust for power on his part; it was playing on his sympathy. Boromir it was who, for instance, comforts Gimli at Batlin's grave. He's the one who worries the most about the hobbits dying as they try to make it over Caradhras. He's the one who wants to give them time to recover after Gandalf dies. I have no trouble believing that Boromir worried a great deal that the quest was going to end up killing Frodo, and he couldn't bear the thought of that. Like Gandalf, his pity was his weakness.Quote:
Originally posted by Orual
Bingo. And this is heresy, but I never cottoned on to book Aragorn, either. Viggo gave a cardboard character some depth and complexity. I don't want this to turn into a book vs film thread, so I'll leave it there.Quote:
Originally posted by Orual
If Aragorn bites it at all, the quest may end with the "demise" of the ring, but the ultimate end, the return of the King is not fulfilled. So, where does that leave Gondor? Is Denethor dead or is Faramir? Let's pretend that Denethor is dead, and Faramir survives (but Eowyn does not). Gondor is left with yet another steward. No uniting king to usher in peaceful times for men and little folk. The Elves continue to move toward more valuable real estate--talk about your white flight!--and the dwarves see no reason to change their customs and grub for riches underground. If Merry kicks the bucket, can the remaining Hobbits lead the uprising and rid the Shire of Sharkey (stupidest name, ever, IMO)?
I dunno. I'd like to think so, but....
Aragorn is not the only Dunedein (spelling?) left, so perhaps "they" would pick another one? Interesting to speculate.