A Kinda Half-Assed Apology From Ed, Sorta Thing

I'm not sure if we're supposed to link to the Dope directly or not, so I'll just quote from Ed's latest response in the "Your Efforts To Improve The Dope Thread in ATMB:

"I wasn't indending to alienate the SDMB community, and to the extent this has occurred I deeply regret it.

"Communication has certainly been an issue and could stand to be improved"

Blah blah, sorry but week need money, great new things to be announced next week, we promise. Stay tuned, please. Please?

Heh. Dude sounds worried. Great new things on the horizon, you say? Be still my heart, for I have never heard that one from the board management before.

I'm gonna quote Nada from The Sandman: 'And now what? You expect me to accept that and say no more? One half-hearted apology, and you've somehow kissed it all better?... And you "think perhaps you should apologise"? You... You.. You make me sick.'

[Mod Note]

Links are okay. Invitations to follow them and stir up trouble are not.

ETA, I know you weren't planning on doing so; that's just general advice for links back the the SDMB.

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Originally posted by Scissorjack

...to the extent this has occurred I deeply regret it.

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I apologize if somehow my vehicular homicide caused your family any distress.

Oh, thank you, Liberal, for that apology. What a great man you are to speak to us that way. We can no longer blame you for your drunken recklessness. It is our fault that you killed our son. Will you take us back? Please? Oh, please?

You know, my first ex-husband used to hit me.

When I sued him for divorce, he sent me flowers.

I threw that shit in the trash.


:: dusts hands off ::

Gotta love that pink pussy lipped passive voice thing he has goin' on... :roll:

I do believe I hear the sound of a bicycle in reverse.

To quote Barry McKenzie, "May your balls turn to bicycle wheels and backpedal up yer arse!"

And let's not forget how that verse ends--"Go and dip yer left eye in hot cocky shit and stick yer head up a dead bear's bum!"

Go Ed. :roll:

Hmmm...kinda wondering if somebody above Ed noticed all that "record high traffic" happened to be in the outbound lanes?

From what I've seen, the Dope has fewer threads, fewer posts, and the overall quality of content is in a nosedive.
"To a nicer guy, it couldn't happen". As I posted in the "Passive Resistance" thread, my best stuff is going to be posted right here at Domebo. I hope others will do the same.

Guys, c'mon! He's promising future goodies! Just think what we will be missing in a few short years.

• A brand new forum[/*:m:2ahck9d2]
• A new user status[/*:m:2ahck9d2]
• Four new rules[/*:m:2ahck9d2]
• Eight new mods[/*:m:2ahck9d2]
• A new grievance committee composed of TubaDiva, Lynn Bodoni, and SkipMagic[/*:m:2ahck9d2]

The possibilities are endless

The phrase "too little, too late" comes to my mind. We told him and told him and told him and he wouldn't listen to us common folk, even though some of the people trying to get through had been on the boards almost since Day One and were prolific, non-trouble making posters (and that's a whole bunch of us here).

I laughed a little bit when I saw him trotting out the old, great "Exciting new things are coming, but I can't tell you what yet!"

I agree it sounds like the same old, same old. But it makes me wonder -- what on earth do they think they can do to "make amends" and bring posters back?

IMO, they'd have to grovel (which they hate), sincerely apologise (will never happen), fire a few mods (heh), and take the Pit back to the way it was. And even then, I don't think most folks would go back.

So...what would it take to get you to go back to the Dope?

Garbage.

He still doesn't have the balls or courage to admit, full-throated, that he fucked up.

When Facebook released its stalker edition a few years ago, users were fucking PISSED.

And we TOLD Mark. And at first he was all "Yeah, but being able to keep track of your friends is cool."


No dice, junior. Going to an ivy league school doesn't mean you know what we want; it makes your diploma nice and shiny.

When we didn't stop complaining about how much easier it made to track people without even trying, he heard.

And they rolled things back pretty fiercely.

In two days.


It took them two days to get things to something reasonable.

And there was no passive-ass-voiced "Communication could be improved" bullshit.

Zotti, you fucked up, you fucked up again, you fucked up BAD, you fucked up BAD again, and you still lack the balls to look us in the face and admit you fucked up.

Be a fucking man and own your mistake.

But you won't. You won't write "I made a mistake." You'll say you deeply regret something that happened to the extent it did.

Oh, yeah?

It did, fucko.

And it's on you.

And communication could have been better three cuntlapping years ago, you illiterate pile of molding shit. It's been garbage since you decided you were far too busy "editing" Cecil to do anything but come down from on high every once in a while to issue an edict and wait for people to kiss your goddamn pinky ring.


You lost my money a few years ago. You lost my trust and respect along with it.

And now you'd better hope to all things holy -- and unholy, and lawful good, and whatever else you can find -- that you haven't killed the board the way P2P did.

Cuz fella, your place sure does have some people I used to hang with.

But dealing with your fiats ain't worth the bother. Anyone I really want to be talking to, I am, and anyone I come across from this time to whenever is just a pleasant surprise you had nothing to do with.

Fuck you and the Barn House you rode in on.

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Originally posted by featherlou

We told him and told him and told him and he wouldn't listen...

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'I told you I'd shoot! But you didn't believe me! Why didn't you believe me?'

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Originally posted by Q.E.D.

[Mod Note]

Links are okay. Invitations to follow them and stir up trouble are not.

ETA, I know you weren't planning on doing so; that's just general advice for links back the the SDMB.

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OK, good to be clear. I am posting in that thread in ATMB, but I'm not gonna bring here over there. Just pisses me off is all.

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Originally posted by leander

I agree it sounds like the same old, same old. But it makes me wonder -- what on earth do they think they can do to "make amends" and bring posters back?

IMO, they'd have to grovel (which they hate), sincerely apologise (will never happen), fire a few mods (heh), and take the Pit back to the way it was. And even then, I don't think most folks would go back.

So...what would it take to get you to go back to the Dope?

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That would be a good start. No more modding by Ed. Lynn, Marley, and Skip have to go, preferably with a full ceremony of cutting the rank from their uniforms, and the walk of shame as the posters turn our backs to them as they pass. I'd also want some hookers & blow, and this place would have to die...which I do not want to happen. I like this place. I may continue to toss in a fluff post sometimes, but I'm pretty much done with posting anything with much substance there.

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Originally posted by leander

So...what would it take to get you to go back to the Dope?

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Scrub the leadership, on the SDMB and overall.

Users generate content, so they should pick mods. (I know this is never going to happen, beginning with the leadership scrub, so just let me have some fun here.)

In fact, ban Ed and Jenny from the site for life. Dex, while you're at it. Having them there has hurt the site.

Pay Una to run the thing. Og knows she knows how to do it, and she's worlds better at communicating as a human than Jenny, Ed and Dex put together in a room full of emotionally supersensitive empaths.

And as the last straw, remove the facade from that incredibly pathetic "No, Ed just 'edits' Cecil's columns!"

We're fucking grownups (many of us literally). Give it to us straight.

Marley needs to get therapy on how to not be a vapid, passive-aggressive shitstick. You want to come with it in a discussion? Come with it. Don't dance around an invisible pole. Paint it fucking black (a GREAT color, btw) and let's address the subject, not some tiny fucking detail you think derails every general argument.

Also, I want a pony.

Because you know none of that shit is ever going to happen. Jenny, Ed and Dex have too much ego wrapped up in that site to possibly let go. (I haven't been around for Lynn's descent from what was once at least a pretty solid moderating chair, so I can't speak to anything there.)

Someone want to give us a link?

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Originally posted by McNutty

Someone want to give us a link?

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May it help you as much as it hurt me:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/sho ... tcount=102

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Originally posted by featherlou

The phrase "too little, too late" comes to my mind. We told him and told him and told him and he wouldn't listen to us common folk, even though some of the people trying to get through had been on the boards almost since Day One and were prolific, non-trouble making posters (and that's a whole bunch of us here).

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Don't forget the posters (like Jonathan Chance, IIRC) who have both newspaper and new media experience and were saying, "This is not what you should be doing if you want to stay in business, dumbfucks."

Nor do I think Ed and Co realize just how dire things in the newspaper industry are, despite being smackdab in the middle of it. There was an article about the NYT (which is in trouble) on one of the techblogs, and after they ran the numbers, they figured out that the NYT would save money if they ditched the dead tree edition, and gave everyone who subscribed for two years a free Kindle. For a paper like the Reader which relies on advertising for its income to not begin thinking so far outside the box that they're halfway to orbit, is almost certainly a death sentence.

Ed's meddling with the boards not only drives away the hardcore customer base (which a business in tough times should want to retain at all costs), but disinclines new customers from showing up as well, since there's nothing there for them to enjoy.

Is there a good word to describe someone who's actions that are so shortsighted and self-destructive?

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Originally posted by Tuckerfan

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Originally posted by featherlou

Is there a good word to describe someone who's actions that are so shortsighted and self-destructive?

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There is now: to Zotti.

Zotti {vb, trans}: to arrogantly implement a poorly conceived plan despite a total lack of ability only to catastrophically exacerbate matters.

"Man, the timing was out in my Camaro so I beat on the sparkplugs with a rock, and now it won't run at all. Dude, I totally zottied it."

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Originally posted by Tuckerfan

Don't forget the posters (like Jonathan Chance, IIRC) who have both newspaper and new media experience and were saying, "This is not what you should be doing if you want to stay in business, dumbfucks."

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And it was more than that, even. For example, when the Stage Manager episode went down, you had sysadmins like catsix (think what you like of her, but she's got brains) saying that in the private sector, doing what Jenny did would have been grounds for immediate dismissal, don't even bother getting your coffee cup, and hope the customer doesn't sue you so far into the ground you come out the other end.

Remind me again what horrendously severe punishment Jenny suffered?

The mismanagement of not only the financial element ("Here, let us give you money, and here are ways you can do it!" "No." ... "OK, give us money or you can't be here anymore." "?") but the human element -- making the admins minor deities -- has set the board up for a future of failure unless and until management is rebooted.

On a different computer.

People who have failed for so long to make a profit out of many people wanting to be in one place at the same time cannot, I think, have the foggiest fucking clue how to do it if they haven't done it yet. These are not scientists fine-tuning the next vaccine for whatever. These are people who got in on the ground floor and think that entitles them to run the place however they want.

Well, you screw with your base and you get screwed. And making the Pit more search-engine friendly would not even be all that difficult. Daily Kos manages it quite easily. When you get there, there's a rule about no profanity in diary titles, because that's what the search engines look at.

Offer hearty fuck-yous to people in your thread all you want (though it gets old). Just don't do it in the title.

And even ignoring the issue of "That rule precedes you," you discuss it with the people who make your site popular. You get feedback from them, not the lint in your ass.

If you want to grow a site, you keep the site's denizens happy. You don't just show up once a year with a new rule. You're not Sister goddamn Santa Claus with a ban ruler.

Meh, I really can't even get worked up about this anymore. I'm not resigning or leaving in a huff, I'm just not even that interested in making any sort of a big deal. The SDMB used to be the first place I checked everyday on the net, and now, it's just not.

I'll still read there, and maybe leave an occassional post. I just don't think there's going to be a way to make it feel like the same "good ol' days". On the brightside I've always enjoyed watching a good trainwreck, I just never wished for it to be like this.

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Originally posted by beebs

Meh, I really can't even get worked up about this anymore. I'm not resigning or leaving in a huff, I'm just not even that interested in making any sort of a big deal. The SDMB used to be the first place I checked everyday on the net, and now, it's just not.

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Same here. The Dope has been a central part of my online life - reading it far more than posting - for going on ten years, but now I really don't care any more. Ed, Lynn, TD and jdavis through their incompetence and stupidity have driven the thing into the ground. Domebo looks to me like the future, whereas the SDMB is way past its sell-by date.

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Originally posted by Liberal

Guys, c'mon! He's promising future goodies! Just think what we will be missing in a few short years.

• A brand new forum[/*:m:1shzjx6a]
• A new user status[/*:m:1shzjx6a]
• Four new rules[/*:m:1shzjx6a]
• Eight new mods[/*:m:1shzjx6a]
• A new grievance committee composed of TubaDiva, Lynn Bodoni, and SkipMagic[/*:m:1shzjx6a]

The possibilities are endless

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Moderator Note:

Liberal, stay on topic. Do not deviate again.

(just kidding)

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This is a good list, Liberal, but I'm afraid it could actually be what he brings -- or at least along similar lines.

Personally, I think it's time to drop the "Cecil Adams" thing. It might have been novel 20 years go, but in these days of Google and Wikipedia, it's... lame? No, that's not quite what I'm looking for. Dated, I think, is probably the best way to describe it.

As several people in several threads on the all three boards have said, the SDMB has gone way, way, way beyond the "Cecil Adams" thing. I'd never even heard of Cecil Adams or the Straight Dope until I joined the boards, and even after that I very rarely read the columns.

I read Ed's apology and thought it sounded very much like someone had been given an ear-bashing by a Higher-Up who'd seen the Alexa graphs and wanted to know why they looked like a ski-ramp. I mean, lots of eloquent, articulate posters have expressed their concerns in a non-whiny, non-bitchy, non-frothing-at-the-mouth way, and the silence from Mt. Cecil has been deafening, interspersed with the odd thunderbolt of "If you don't like it, fuck off and get your own messageboards. With or without blackjack and bookers, we don't care." Then, suddenly, after realising that over 1000 members have left, and that represents most of their "regulars", and that he might very well find himself in a McJob as a result of this (in fact, he said here ([url]http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10588951&postcount=211p/url]) that he'd rather have a job at McDonalds or Starbucks than run a messageboard with a free-for-all Pit, if that's what it came down to), it's "No, wait, don't go! We didn't mean it! We'll get some new stuff for you all if you stay!"

It will be interesting to see the longer-term effect on the boards. They'll survive, of course, but I think the poster makeup will be very different from how it was a fortnight ago.

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Originally posted by Martini Enfield

(in fact, he said here ([url]http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10588951&postcount=211p/url]) that he'd rather have a job at McDonalds or Starbucks than run a messageboard with a free-for-all Pit, if that's what it came down to)

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Hey, where were you before when I wasted like an hour looking for this very post??

The passive voiced apology is what kills me--the "mistakes were made" type of phrasing.

Any 4 year old knows an apology consists of 3 (or 4, depending on the nature of the offense) elements.
1) A frank acknowledgement of what you did wrong-in an active voice ("I know I hurt you by standing you up").
2) An expression of regret--("I feel terrible for the pain I caused you")
2.5) (depending on the offense) A clear statement of precisely what you will do to make amends (sometimes not possible) ("Please let me take you out to dinner any time in the next week, whenever you want, I'll be there.")
3) A promise not to do it again.

That's it. The words "If" ("If what I said offended you, I'm sorry"--not an apology) or "but" ("I'm sorry I hurt you, but you hurt me too"--argument, not apology) can't appear. The passive voice can't be used ("I'm sorry you were hurt").

It's not that tricky--a kindergärtner knows this stuff.

I don't really notice most of the personalities of the mods and admins on the dope. I couldn't tell you who is the most annoying or the best mod or who made which decision where.

But I sincerely dislike Ed Zotti.

It was the dismissive tone from the start - sure there's a set of 'usual suspects' who bitch about everyrhing.

But this was different. Scores of long term, prolific, administration supporting, charter members (ie paid from pay to post day one), voicing in strong terms, their displeasure. Quickly, as soon as there were new venues available, scores of posters flocked.

And more dismissiveness. I've noticed massive drop off in number of new threads, new posts etc. and now this weaseling non appology. Christ, my convicts have done better ("they said I did ... "I was implicated in a b & e", "my car hit some one")

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Originally posted by beebs

Meh, I really can't even get worked up about this anymore. I'm not resigning or leaving in a huff, I'm just not even that interested in making any sort of a big deal. The SDMB used to be the first place I checked everyday on the net, and now, it's just not.

I'll still read there, and maybe leave an occassional post. I just don't think there's going to be a way to make it feel like the same "good ol' days". On the brightside I've always enjoyed watching a good trainwreck, I just never wished for it to be like this.

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Hey beebs, I sure hope you drop by the MMP over there once in awhile. We miss our resident trouble maker.

Like you, I'm not all "worked up" about the whole fiasco, but I am saddened. I'm not leaving either the other place either, just because there are some folks who aren't leaving and I like communicating with them.

Only one clause in the apology in question was in the passive voice ("communication . . . could stand to be improved") and the use of the passive was necessary there in order to coordinate the two clauses in that sentence.

I popped over to that thread, and saw a comment by aldiboronti questioning whether 'over 600 people' had really left the Dope over the past week. I felt compelled to reply, just to try to get across to the people there that they really do have a crisis on their hands. In the end, what I typed out seems to have been a 'farewell post', even though I hadn't ever intended such a thing.

And then I got a database error the first time I tried to post it :roll:

Refusals to do what your customers want and declarations that you'd rather work at McDonalds have a way of turning one's present employment situation into a future unemployment situation.

I have to admit, I'm kind of embarrassed on behalf of Ed. What a colossal clusterfuck.

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Originally posted by Excalibre

Only one clause in the apology in question was in the passive voice ("communication . . . could stand to be improved") and the use of the passive was necessary there in order to coordinate the two clauses in that sentence.

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While this may be technically true, I think he would be well served to concentrate more on conveying some genuine remorse. People are of course using "passive voice" to stand for his mealy-mouthed refusal to take responsibility for this mess. "I wasn't intending to alienate the SDMB community, and to the extent this has occurred I deeply regret it " is another example.

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Originally posted by Myrnalene

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Originally posted by Excalibre

Only one clause in the apology in question was in the passive voice ("communication . . . could stand to be improved") and the use of the passive was necessary there in order to coordinate the two clauses in that sentence.

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While this may be technically true, I think he would be well served to concentrate more on conveying some genuine remorse.

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I agree completely; his apology sounded grudging and half-assed.

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Originally posted by Myrnalene

People are of course using "passive voice" to stand for his mealy-mouthed refusal to take responsibility for this mess. "I wasn't intending to alienate the SDMB community, and to the extent this has occurred I deeply regret it " is another example.

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I don't disagree with people's irritation, it's just that 'passive voice' is an actual term with an actual meaning, and this ain't it. It doesn't mean "refusal to take responsibility".

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Originally posted by Fenris

The passive voiced apology is what kills me--the "mistakes were made" type of phrasing.

Any 4 year old knows an apology consists of 3 (or 4, depending on the nature of the offense) elements.
1) A frank acknowledgement of what you did wrong-in an active voice ("I know I hurt you by standing you up").
2) An expression of regret--("I feel terrible for the pain I caused you")
2.5) (depending on the offense) A clear statement of precisely what you will do to make amends (sometimes not possible) ("Please let me take you out to dinner any time in the next week, whenever you want, I'll be there.")
3) A promise not to do it again.

That's it. The words "If" ("If what I said offended you, I'm sorry"--not an apology) or "but" ("I'm sorry I hurt you, but you hurt me too"--argument, not apology) can't appear. The passive voice can't be used ("I'm sorry you were hurt").

It's not that tricky--a kindergärtner knows this stuff.

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I woke up late and visited the Dope first other than some techie PMs here. I posted in that thread that I thought your post was great Fenris and I thought I would repeat it the complement.

I find myself a lot more willing to wait for changes and improvements over there simply because CRSP gave us domebo to hang out at. I wasn't going to make the jump at first even though the Dope was frustrating me, but then I saw too many of my friends already over here the first day. I also saw a chance to invite back posters that always made the Dope interesting like Excalibre. I'm glad others had the same idea.

I don't know if I'll ever really go back, I sort of doubt it, but I did enjoy my time there. I was surprised Ed Zotti posted in the thread, so I will not give up entirely. I was just under whelmed by his reply, which I think I managed to convey in my response.

I am surprised the DSyoung did not show up to take a dump in my thread. He usually enjoys doing that in any ATMB thread critical of the dope.

Maybe, just maybe, CRSP and Giraffe have give Ed a wake up call.

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Originally posted by Excalibre

Only one clause in the apology in question was in the passive voice ("communication . . . could stand to be improved") and the use of the passive was necessary there in order to coordinate the two clauses in that sentence.

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Neg.

"Communication has been bad in the past, and I know mine has been bad."

Active voice. Frank admission of shortcoming.

But no. Instead, passive.

(Don't mean to be rude, but this still hurts.)

I just posted my response to Ed's lame apology--I don't want one and wouldn't believe it if, somehow, he could offer up a good one. He's spoken eloquently many times on his true feelings, and it's those arrogant, condescending, egotistical, impetuous, officious, imperious and patronizing feelings that ring true to me. To apologize, at this point, would be insincere--a mere admission that he's realized belatedly how he has screwed the best pooch a man could ever have, and an attempt to undo the damage. He's expressed himself so often, and so consistently, that he would have to have had a brain transplant to convince me he felt otherwise at this point.

I swear, years from now they're gonna be teaching classes in Business School about how not to piss off the punters, and they're gonna be based solely on Ed. I mean, short of active malice how is it possible to be incompetent as to trash a ten-year message board with a thriving and active membership in less than a month? The guy's gonna be a legend.

Ed Zotti is the Gerald Ratner of the message board. Who else would tell their customers that they'd rather work at McDonalds than listen to them?

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Originally posted by iampunha

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Originally posted by Excalibre

Only one clause in the apology in question was in the passive voice ("communication . . . could stand to be improved") and the use of the passive was necessary there in order to coordinate the two clauses in that sentence.

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Neg.

"Communication has been bad in the past, and I know mine has been bad."

Active voice. Frank admission of shortcoming.

But no. Instead, passive.

(Don't mean to be rude, but this still hurts.)

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I'm not sure what you're getting at. Yes, there are ways to express essentially the same thoughts without using the passive voice, if he had decided to rewrite the sentence. He couldn't have used the active voice in that clause without totally recasting the sentence, as you did. At any rate, the passive voice is not what made his semi-apology irksome, and I don't think he used it any more than one would expect in any similar stretch of written English.

The (legitimate) complaints you guys have about what he said are not grammar-based, that's all.

And besides, fuck him. He's a loser. He writes a moderately amusing newspaper column (that I'm betting most current and ex-SDMB posters don't read very often anyway) but he was a jerk to you guys, who are paying customers. As my grandma always told me, going off and forming your own successful message board is the best revenge. Let him flail. Think of the positives: at least this led you guys to form this place, when you could still use the SDMB to advertise it and get it off the ground. There's a very good chance the SDMB will disappear within a few months anyway, whether or not Ed zotties the place up first, because Creative Loafing is probably not long for the world. At least the SDMB users weren't caught unawares when the lights suddenly went off, right?

"I wasn't intending to alienate the SDMB community, and to the extent this has occurred I deeply regret it."

He just doesn't see his arrogance, does he? "Hey! I'm sorry you're pissed off, but I didn't mean to. It's not my fault!"

While I hesitate these days to suggest that folks look at the SDMB, some of the responses to the "apology" are quite eloquent. (It's all on the third page of the thread.)

The day the Dope was doomed was the day they gave Ed a financial stake in the thing.


Crap. I need to go. The tornado warnings are starting to fly here. (Not to worry: no threat to this particular location. Yet.) Oh, to be out of the Great Plains now that Spring is here!

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Originally posted by Fenris

It's not that tricky--a kindergärtner knows this stuff.

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Emphasis added.

Yeah, I'm sure many kindergarten teachers do know this stuff. I'm less sure, however, that children attending kindergarten are similarly aware of the subtleties of apologies. There are plenty of adults besides Ed who have problems apologizing.

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Originally posted by Hellestal

Emphasis added.

Yeah, I'm sure many kindergarten teachers do know this stuff. I'm less sure, however, that children attending kindergarten are similarly aware of the subtleties of apologies. There are plenty of adults besides Ed who have problems apologizing.

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Wait who were you back at the other place? I don't remember other people citing language log, except maybe Hostile Dialect.

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Originally posted by Martini Enfield

It will be interesting to see the longer-term effect on the boards. They'll survive, of course, but I think the poster makeup will be very different from how it was a fortnight ago.

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Perhaps the most depressing part of all this mess, I think, is that it happened in a fortnight, really, the core of it. Oh, sure, the signs were there, the seeds were planted months earlier, but I had no idea that the board was so fragile, if a huge chunk of it would shatter so quickly.

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Originally posted by Excalibre

At any rate, the passive voice is not what made his semi-apology irksome, and I don't think he used it any more than one would expect in any similar stretch of written English.

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I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if you don't understand what's irksome about using the passive voice here, you might be prone to making wimpy-ass, I-don't-really-mean-it-all-that-much apologies. "I'm sorry I poked you in the eye" is a thousand times better as an apology than "I'm sorry you were poked in the eye," even though "Joe delivered the newspaper" is not necessarily a thousand times better than "the newspaper was delivered." There's no comparison to "similar stretches of written English." In an apology, acknowledging fault is a critical ingredient, and if you use choose your words in a way that merely acknowledges that something bad happened instead of you did something bad, then it's a shitty apology.

And no, he wouldn't have to rewrite the sentence. All he has to say is, "I wasn't intending to alienate the SDMB community, but to the extent that I did, I deeply regret it."

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Originally posted by Excalibre

Wait who were you back at the other place? I don't remember other people citing language log, except maybe Hostile Dialect.

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I'm Hellestal over there (although I had a name change relatively recently; I was previously Kendall Jackson).

I was never a high-profile contributor. Only 630 posts total over there (member since August 2002), with about half that number posted in the last year.

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Originally posted by pedescribe

I had no idea that the board was so fragile, if a huge chunk of it would shatter so quickly.

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Well, it wasn't, up until the tipping point. Like that Minneapolis bridge which failed a while back - it was very sound for a very long time. One day the load became too much to bear, and one plate gave way. When that one plate gave way, the members one by one followed it.

I don't think the final straw was the same thing for each of us - I can't really say what it was, for me.

I'll say this. If Brewha (or someone else) hadn't joined this board immediately, I don't think things would have turned out this way. Those few first posters started a trickle, which turned into a rivulet... the rest is history. There was a certain energy that day; as one person after another signed up, it carried a lot of other people with it.

I've reflected on what someone else commented about the SDMB - I think it was Elmwood - that it seemed so conservative. Seems to me that, for an electronic medium, it was stuck in some old ways; maybe print journalism ways for all I know. This board runs on a different paradigm, and it feels better and works better because it fits the current state of the world better.

In the end, the unwillingness to change and grow with the community is what is going to finally kill the SDMB.

How many politicians did we used to Pit for making lame half-assed apologies like that?

I haven't seen the Dope since I got banned, but it doesn't sound hopeful. (By the way, on Tuesday SkipMagic told me he had no idea whom I meant by "CRSP". Is that possible?)

There is a difference between "possible" and "probable".

;)

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Originally posted by NinetyWt

Well, it wasn't, up until the tipping point. Like that Minneapolis bridge which failed a while back - it was very sound for a very long time. One day the load became too much to bear, and one plate gave way. When that one plate gave way, the members one by one followed it.

I don't think the final straw was the same thing for each of us - I can't really say what it was, for me.

I'll say this. If Brewha (or someone else) hadn't joined this board immediately, I don't think things would have turned out this way. Those few first posters started a trickle, which turned into a rivulet... the rest is history. There was a certain energy that day; as one person after another signed up, it carried a lot of other people with it.

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So... Brewha has a plate in his head?

The SDMB used to be the first place I'd check when I get online, but now I think I'm done with it. Ed's "improving" the place straight into the shitter and it's depressing to watch. I'll be spending my time here and at Giraffe's place.

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Originally posted by Julie

So... Brewha has a plate in his head?

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Hush, you! We don't want him to know. Mind control experiments and all that, you know.

;)

Here's hoping no one truly magnetic ever shows up.

Hmm. There's that whole airport-security-gate thing, too.

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Originally posted by Excalibre

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

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That his passive, businessese writing revealing that knows he fucked up and he's sorry about it

sucks

hairy

testicles.

[qiote]Yes, there are ways to express essentially the same thoughts without using the passive voice, if he had decided to rewrite the sentence.[/quote]

Yes, and they are active.

Using the active voice is how you own your actions.

And his decision to use passive meant that he didn't own his actions.

He wrote this:

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I wasn't intending to alienate the SDMB community, and to the extent this has occurred I deeply regret it.

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It was weak. He would have done a hell of a lot better, looked a lot better, been taken a lot better, had he written this:

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I wasn't intending to alienate the SDMB community. Clearly, what I did alienated the community. I am very sorry people feel alienated and that what I did alienated them.

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That, along with a complete reworking of the communication line and some serious edits elsewhere, and I'd be back there posting.

Instead of that, we get "this has occurred" and "I deeply regret it."

When we fuck up, do we ask for statements of deep regret, or do we say we're sorry?

It's an issue of word choice. He chose weaker, less direct language. And if that was not deliberate, he's a bigger idiot than I've given him credit for.

But he's done this before. It's a conscious thing. And he ought to know, if he didn't already, that it's infuriating.

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He couldn't have used the active voice in that clause without totally recasting the sentence, as you did.

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And I am saying that his entire way of writing that attempt at an apology (there are no caveats or conditions in an apology; there is only the apology) bit.

It needed to be recast entirely.

And his words were deliberate.

And he hasn't gone back to fix them, has he? Or has he let people tear him up for his absolutely grotesque, middle management "mistakes were made" writing?

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At any rate, the passive voice is not what made his semi-apology irksome,

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The words he used, the order he used them in and the general tone (including passive voice) are my main issues with that nonapology, actually. So while it did not piss you off, please don't take that to assume that's not the case for anyone else.

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and I don't think he used it any more than one would expect in any similar stretch of written English.

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I expect people who fuck up to admit it, full-on -- to say they're sorry and not go all passive on me.

That's why we differentiate between active and passive voice. That's why we teach the differences between active and passive voice.

When manhattan said something like "michael fucking masterson" in GD, he apologized. I still remember his words:

"I fucked up. I apologize."

Not hard.

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The (legitimate) complaints you guys have about what he said are not grammar-based, that's all.

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Some of my complaints are specifically about the grammar. Yes. They are. I don't see how they could be otherwise.

Grammar, from m-w.com:

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b: a study of what is to be preferred and what avoided in inflection and syntax

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Syntax, same source:

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1 a: the way in which linguistic elements (as words) are put together to form constituents (as phrases or clauses)

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Inflection:

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3 a: the change of form that words undergo to mark such distinctions as those of case, gender, number, tense, person, mood, or voice

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What is to be preferred in inflection and syntax in an apology, by me and obviously others, is:

1) Don't be a passive fucking weaner. You fucked up. Admit it. Use active verbs and the word I. Example: "I fucked up by coming down from on high and telling you you couldn't use the Pit as you've been using it for nine fucking years. Fuck me for thinking this. I'm a fucking tool, and I've come to my senses about this."

2) ... actually, that covers a lot of my bases.

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And besides, fuck him. He's a loser.

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All is forgiven. I still disagree that it wasn't even partly about how he said what he said, but we can rally together behind this while disagreeing furiously on language issues.

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Originally posted by Liberal

Guys, c'mon! He's promising future goodies! Just think what we will be missing in a few short years.

• A brand new forum[/*:m:12ks4ykn]
• A new user status[/*:m:12ks4ykn]
• Four new rules[/*:m:12ks4ykn]
• Eight new mods[/*:m:12ks4ykn]
• A new grievance committee composed of TubaDiva, Lynn Bodoni, and SkipMagic[/*:m:12ks4ykn]

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And a partridge in a pear tree?

Don't know if this has been seen yet, but ... another apology from Ed.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...&postcount=130

Well, there is one glaring difference between this one and all the rest...

He said "I'm sorry".

From Ed's recent post:

Perhaps it's too late. I hope not. I would hate to see a board that has gone through so much, and of which I'm very proud, dissolve or diminish over something like this. I still think the SDMB is the best board on the Internet. Plenty of forums run by big media companies have crashed and burned; I thought we would be different. If it all goes south I'll have only myself to blame. I was stubborn and self-righteous and wouldn't listen. I'm sorry.

Got to admit I'm surprised to see him openly acknowledging that he may have killed his board.

I think it's funny that he thinks board criticisms will do better in ATMB. Also known as TubaDiva's House of Threadclosing and Lock-a-torium.

Well. Time will tell whether or not that will heal the rift.

I still think the whole way in which he regards the thing needs to be adjusted.

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Originally posted by Ice Wolf

Don't know if this has been seen yet, but ... another apology from Ed.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...&postcount=130

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I was just about to post that link. I can't believe out of all the people who've complained, and all the people who have politely tried to explain our displeasure to him, that he picked me to apologize to. :shock: I mean, I know it was meant for everyone, but the fact that he was responding directly to me from my post to him. . . I don't know, I'm just gobsmacked, I guess. I have no friggin' clue how to respond.

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Originally posted by Suburban Plankton

Well, there is one glaring difference between this one and all the rest...

He said "I'm sorry".

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At the end, yeah.

And you have to wade through so much garbage to get to the end.

And I know I am not being overly picky because I learned about this kind of writing in college, where they first teach you to write incredibly long sentences and then -- maybe -- teach you how to write short, effective sentences. And as an editor, I wade through this crap from people who haven't learned, and they don't call him Little Ed because he writes concise sentences.

The first few, then, as an intellectual exercise (because his is the kind of second attempt at an apology you make as a first attempt BEFORE people have posted their goodbyes because you're a rake short of a toolshed):

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It wasn't my intention to tell you ... I deeply regret that I did or said anything that made you think I did.

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I wasn't trying to tell you ... and I'm sorry I said or did things that made you think I didn't care if you left.

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I'm not sure if there is anything I can say at this point that will change your mind, but let me give it a try.

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I'm not sure I can say anything to get you to come back, but please let me try.

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However ineptly I may have handled it, my goal throughout all this was one I think (or thought) few would quarrel with: I was trying to get people to be nicer to one another.

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I handled it poorly, but I was trying to get people to be nicer to each other, and I hope few of you would have a problem with that.

(HOWEVER INEPTLY? Yes, clearly having people TELL YOU THEY'RE LEAVING BECAUSE YOU FAIL requires some qualification of your ineptitude.)

Bonus coverage:

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I would hate to see a board that has gone through so much, and of which I'm very proud ...

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Oh, yes, we should all be very proud of when Dex wrote about Cristi's kids making garbage angels on the carpet.

Proud of that point where Ed let us all back in because P2P FAILED.

Proud of that nonupgrade upgrade.

Yes, very, very proud.

I will tearily confess to experiencing a near-toxic overdose of schadenfreude at this latest round of auto-intercourse by Zottie et al. I do not even care to think of how many manhours were poured into my contributions at the SDMB. The amount of selective moderating and outright abuse of privileges by the mods was appalling, to put it kindly.

When I confronted Zottie with the most egregious case, involving Ukulele Ike's meanspirited plagarising of over 1,000 words of my work with a 1% total alteration of content, he essentially told me to suck it up. I was banned shortly thereafter and only returned once to see if they migrated my "SDMB Art Gallery" thread, which they did not. To have deleted such a tremendous creative effort by the SDMB community told me all I needed to know.

I find zero irony in the hamfisted way that Zottie is killing what was once the most vibrant online community in Internet history.

Perhaps someone could satisfy my curiosity about Jenny's evidently monumental online gaff. I sent her a very nice package many years ago and barely received a response from her. I'll not visit the SDMB to find out so any explanation here would be appreciated.

Finally, major kudos to CRSP and all the moderators for creating a superb versimilitude of the SDMB in its prime.

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Originally posted by Jill

I have no friggin' clue how to respond.

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Personally, I would wait until tomorrow - let things settle a bit. But that's just me.

Yeah, I closed that board and came back here where I feel more comfortable at the moment. I think I need a hug. This is really bothering me for some reason.

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Originally posted by Oakminster

From Ed's recent post:

Perhaps it's too late. I hope not. I would hate to see a board that has gone through so much, and of which I'm very proud, dissolve or diminish over something like this. I still think the SDMB is the best board on the Internet. Plenty of forums run by big media companies have crashed and burned; I thought we would be different. If it all goes south I'll have only myself to blame. I was stubborn and self-righteous and wouldn't listen. I'm sorry.

Got to admit I'm surprised to see him openly acknowledging that he may have killed his board.

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Not me. He'd have admitted being the real killer if he'd thought it'd have helped.

That was a business decision. That was him trying to inspire and uplift ("This place rocks!" "You were right; I've learned.") His sentences got shorter and more direct, and his verb and noun phrases were more direct.

I have to admit I was wrong. I did not think he was capable of writing that way -- that he knew how to be succinct and contrite.

No, he knows how to apologize. He knows how to write sincerely.

He just doesn't until he thinks it's beyond necessary. Not when it is necessary; after it was. Or maybe he didn't know it was necessary because he is frequently absent.

And maybe it'll help. And maybe it won't.

But he had his chance(s) with me, and with others of us, and he wasn't willing to do the obvious until he'd seen just how bad it was -- twice.

(Incidentally, I misread one part of his apology, so I should here note that I read "all of which I'm very proud" where he wrote "and of which I'm very proud." Shows me for scanning. I should have just stayed quiet.

And Zenster and anyone else, e-mail me -- sadpunk@gmail.com for a link to one person's account of the Stagemanager/TubaDiva issue. I can't promise it's all accurate, as I don't remember enough of what went down, but it should give you enough information so you can get an idea for yourself.)

Now he can show how much he really cares by dumping some moderators and bringing others back!

Just saw this from Skip in the same thread:

Mod Warning:
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Originally Posted by Tuckerfan View Post
Time after time, however, we were patted on our heads, told we didn't know what we were talking about, and you jerks did whatever it was that you wanted.

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This is ATMB, Tuckerfan, so please keep the insults out of it.

Ed tries to make nice, at least as much as he can. Skip comes in to piss all over it.

Pretty funny, in a train wreck kind of way.

Well, I'm sure I just got myself a suspension, if not a banning. Too bad. I was hoping to go out in a blaze of fiery invective come Monday when I had plenty of free time to compose a half-way decent rant. Buncha douch bags.

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Originally posted by Jill

Yeah, I closed that board and came back here where I feel more comfortable at the moment. I think I need a hug. This is really bothering me for some reason.

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We can all give you a hug, Jill. But that won't help. Know why? Because Ed's new improved apology with added bleach was designed to make you feel guilty. It's like the apology given to the beaten wife after she calls the cops and he's threatened with jail. He puts himself across as the new victim, and only the woman with the black eye can save him.

You don't need a hug, but a mild shake — so you can come to your senses and realize that yet another apology is still for the wrong thing. Ed is sorry that his empire is crumbling and that people don't like the new rules, when he's been told a hundred times that it is his heavy handed brutishness, as well as that of his staff, that's the problem. If he sucks you back in, then the next time is happens — and it will — you'll be right back in the same position: feeling bad about something you didn't do.

When he fires TubaDiva, Lynn Bodoni, and SkipMagic. THEN you can believe he's sorry.

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Originally posted by Jill

Yeah, I closed that board and came back here where I feel more comfortable at the moment. I think I need a hug. This is really bothering me for some reason.

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I'm getting the same vibe as you. This is making me uncomfortable, too. I didn't want Ed humiliated; I wanted him to do the right things for the right reasons. This doesn't feel like victory; it feels like everyone lost. There is a feeling of desperation in Ed's latest post, and that is icky.

What would my response to this be? I think I would graciously acknowledge his apology, but not let him off the hook. This doesn't fix anything.

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Originally posted by iampunha

<snip>
Not me. He'd have admitted being the real killer if he'd thought it'd have helped.

That was a business decision. That was him trying to inspire and uplift ("This place rocks!" "You were right; I've learned.") His sentences got shorter and more direct, and his verb and noun phrases were more direct.

I have to admit I was wrong. I did not think he was capable of writing that way -- that he knew how to be succinct and contrite.

No, he knows how to apologize. He knows how to write sincerely.

He just doesn't until he thinks it's beyond necessary. Not when it is necessary; after it was. Or maybe he didn't know it was necessary because he is frequently absent.<snip>

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I wrote this take on the situation and Ed's apology on Giraffe Boards -

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It took a lot to get me to this point, and I don't think there's anything Ed could say or do that would make me forget how he's behaved. This apology isn't a response to him feeling bad for his mistakes; it's a response to the consequences of his actions being more negative than he anticipated. It's about him feeling negative consequences, not us.

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OK...I'll be getting banned for this one. Skip used his mighty mod powers to move my comment on his bullshit warning to make it look like I started a thread ATMBing him for it.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/sho ... p?t=509549

My response:

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Originally posted by Oakminster

OH BULLSHIT.

Skip, I don't give a rat's ass who the fuck you think you are, you do not fucking use your mod access to make it look like I started a thread I did not fucking start. That's bullshit. If I want to ATMB you, since I am no longer allowed to pit your incompetent power-crazy ass, I am more than capable of doing it myself.

And while I'm at it, I'll point out that we have a 1k+ post thread in this very forum calling Ed an asshole and worse. But you, oh mighty wielder of the ban hammer, are now passing out warnings for the intolerable crime of calling a collective...not any individual, the self-image destroying "Jerk".

Kiss my ass. And then go change your tampon and pop a midol before you ban me.

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Originally posted by Liberal

We can all give you a hug, Jill. But that won't help. Know why? Because Ed's new improved apology with added bleach was designed to make you feel guilty. It's like the apology given to the beaten wife after she calls the cops and he's threatened with jail. He puts himself across as the new victim, and only the woman with the black eye can save him.

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I agree with the guilt element, though I'd shy away from the domestic abuse angle. I think it was more that he really wanted us to see that he knew he'd fucked up.

And because he's never done that, he had to be extra special sincerely sincere. Only it took him until the end of it -- maybe he realized he was still communicating largely the same way -- to actually get to what he should have said in the first place.

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Ed is sorry that his empire is crumbling and that people don't like the new rules[. ...] When he fires TubaDiva, Lynn Bodoni, and SkipMagic. THEN you can believe he's sorry.

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I disagree; I think the only point at which he will show he's truly sorry is when he removes himself from all decisions concerning the board.

As with a government, where changing the Cabinet is something but changing the leader is something else, changing the mods and admins is something, but unless and until you realize YOU are the problem, you're just inserting different people -- appointed by the same guy with the same judgment -- to do the same job.

Oakminster, I'd wear that banning like a badge of honor if I were you. Anyone want to lay odds on what Ed will do? 'Cause I'm betting he'll back Skip all the way on this. Here's your test, ladies and germs, if Ed ignores what Skip did, or comes out publicly in support of Skip, then it means that Ed was talking out of his ass when he apologized.

Oh, sure, Pun, he needs to step away. But do the other first. Dump the petty tyrants who will fill his void when he's gone.

From SkipMagic:

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(You can also call someone an "asshole" in a G-rated movie, but I don't think we'll be allowing that one, either.)

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You can? Really? Is this true? Anyone know? (Should I start a thread in Cafe Society for a cite?)

Jill, Featherlou, I'm with Liberal on this--Ed's playing the fucking victim in the drama that only exists because of his own bad decisions and actions. When you tell someone during every single step of the process of making fifteen sticks of dynamite that it's a terrible idea, when you reiterate that warning as the fool straps the homemade dynamite to a large rock and holler it one last time as you're running hell for leather while the fool lights the damned fuse you are the LAST person who should feel guilty when the fool is very, very, very, very, sorry he did it later on in the hospital. Of COURSE he's very sorry. Of COURSE he's terribly contrite--he fucked the dog and he knows it and I'd lay odds his corporate masters laid down the law, probably in a conference call telling him in no uncertain terms to "fix it, fix it, FIX IT." The crocodile tears are flowing copiously but I'm not buying a single one of them. Ed no doubt got the word this week that he's getting a pay cut and he might very well have been told that the pay cut could be about 95% higher than it already is if he doesn't quit fucking up a CL asset for no good reason. What the fuck kind of a media person does ANYTHING to reduce readership? What kind of a moron assumes that corporate suits of a bankrupt company are going to take it kindly when an employees ill-considered actions reduce traffic to a website? Nope, I think old Ed got an ass reaming and that's the only thing he's actually sorry about. Otherwise he would have, y'know, LISTENED to us when we told him that his words and actions were insulting and liable to drive us away--but his heedless, patronizing, dismissive attitude is much more his reality than this sudden volte face.

Too fucking little, too fucking late, Ed--you spineless cunt. :roll:

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Originally posted by Kat

From SkipMagic:

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(You can also call someone an "asshole" in a G-rated movie, but I don't think we'll be allowing that one, either.)

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You can? Really? Is this true? Anyone know? (Should I start a thread in Cafe Society for a cite?)

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Not in any produced before 1983 or so, but Skip can blow dead bear cubs for all I care. I'm done with the Dope. I'm not even goingto bother writing the firey post I was planning on, since that might send traffic to the boards it wouldn't be getting otherwise. Feel free to let Ed & Co. know, because there ain't dick he could do now to get me to post there, save a large check.

The funniest line from the New Improved Apology was this:

"However ineptly I may have handled it, my goal throughout all this was one I think (or thought) few would quarrel with: I was trying to get people to be nicer to one another."

Nicer to one another? Nicer to one another? It reminds me of a radio talk show I heard in the 80s, when a woman called in to the atheist guest and declared, "You'll know the love o' Jesus when you're burnin' in hell!"

If Ed wanted us to be nicer to one another, he could have done two main things: (1) be nice himself, and (2) order his goddamn pissy mods and admins to be nice. Niceness would have sprung up like tulips.

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Originally posted by Kat

From SkipMagic:

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(You can also call someone an "asshole" in a G-rated movie, but I don't think we'll be allowing that one, either.)

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You can? Really? Is this true? Anyone know? (Should I start a thread in Cafe Society for a cite?)

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This will not answer your question to the degree that a slimy fellow like Skip will shut his peanut butter hole, but http://www.filmratings.com/questions.htm (bolding mine):

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A G-rated motion picture contains nothing in theme, language, nudity, sex, violence or other matters that, in the view of the Rating Board, would offend parents whose younger children view the motion picture. The G rating is not a “certificate of approval,” nor does it signify a “children’s” motion picture. Some snippets of language may go beyond polite conversation but they are common everyday expressions. No stronger words are present in G-rated motion pictures. Depictions of violence are minimal. No nudity, sex scenes or drug use are present in the motion picture.

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Now, if Skip happens to encounter "asshole" (I quote that for what I hope is an obvious reason: the first parsing is way too funny) all the time off the board, that's one thing, but I kind of doubt the average parent of a 12-year-old is paying for their kid to hear someone say "asshole."

If you do start a CS thread on that topic, expect it to get moved to ATMB.

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Originally posted by Liberal

The funniest line from the New Improved Apology

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I also loved the part where he said that what drove him to "You can't tell a person to fuck off or ever invoke the mighty cock" was that he doesn't like seeing women called cunts.

You don't like Exhibit A, so you go after Exhibits A-F. (Yes, the first item on the list is cunt, but everything else has to do with cock. Mmm, cock.)

I did not know we had an Iraq War strategist running the SDMB.

Now it all makes sense.

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Originally posted by Jill

I can't believe out of all the people who've complained, and all the people who have politely tried to explain our displeasure to him, that he picked me to apologize to. :shock: I mean, I know it was meant for everyone, but the fact that he was responding directly to me from my post to him. . . I don't know, I'm just gobsmacked, I guess. I have no friggin' clue how to respond.

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Honestly Jill, I think the only reason Ed singled you out was because yours was the last post in the thread before his. I'm pretty sure you shouldn't take anything more from it than that.

For some reason, reading Ed's apology made me think of Pippin's face in the Lord of the Rings movie after he makes all that crap fall down the well in the Mines of Moria: he knows he fucked up big time, but he really doesn't get it.

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Originally posted by iampunha

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Originally posted by Liberal

The funniest line from the New Improved Apology

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I also loved the part where he said that what drove him to "You can't tell a person to fuck off or ever invoke the mighty cock" was that he doesn't like seeing women called cunts.

You don't like Exhibit A, so you go after Exhibits A-F. (Yes, the first item on the list is cunt, but everything else has to do with cock. Mmm, cock.)

I did not know we had an Iraq War strategist running the SDMB.

Now it all makes sense.

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Um, yeah, I got a little heated about that myself. I'm not up on all the fucking pissy ass rules but I don't THINK I'll be getting banninated over that one... Then again, who the fuck knows?

This would be hilarious, if it wasn't so sad. Ed makes what I feel is a sincere attempt at an apology and Skip jams in his Mod Cock and stirs everything up again.

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Originally posted by featherlou

What would my response to this be? I think I would graciously acknowledge his apology, but not let him off the hook. This doesn't fix anything.

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Anyone is obviously free to ignore or criticize any or all of this, but it's not impossible, with some reasonable guesses and some basic psych math, to make a good guess at what happened:

1) Ed responds to a polite and, one might say, pleadingly needy series of questions from the OP of the thread in question, who has (certainly compared to some of us) kept calm through this whole thing, and offers the first attempt at an apology. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/sho ... st10913056) This attempt is semantically identical to most of the things he's said from time to time before when he's done what he's felt like doing and it's gone over horribly. He figures hey, it keeps on doing just enough, so we go with it.

(Of note: The effect of his responding to this post and not even saying "I hope this answers questions you and others have had" is to ignore the others -- the angrier ones, the ones mods have attempted to answer (Marley is to the SDMB as a Speedo full of rocks is to Michael Phelps). By doing this, he thus tries to redefine the beginning of the thread as being where he posted. It is the new focal point, he'd like you to think. Instead of inviting people to read the OP and get pissed, it invites people to think Ed has things under control, that he understands, that he's not some guy who checks his messages once a week. Pay no attention to the stuff Before Ed's Post.)

2) We tee off on Ed's lazy fastball, which was delivered with an attempt at all of the guile of Gaylord Perry making you think he's got something other than oiled-up junk -- but instead came with all the ferocity of that Rookie of the Year kid after he trips on that baseball with 20 minutes left in the movie. And Ed ain't delivering underhanded.

3) This part I'm not sure of. I don't think Ed's the kind to read all the responses to anything, even if there's only one response and it's his. So maybe an underling says, "Hey, you just poured gasoline on the fire, Mr. Zotti," or maybe Ed sticks around for an hour to see if it worked. It didn't.

4) He needs to do something before the cascade of people telling him he blew it convinces fence-sitters to leave as well.

But he can't respond to the angry people because there's nothing favorable to quote as his starting-off point. He has no reason to respond to folks like me, who call him out at length and give him no place to quote or save his ass. And I've already said goodbye, so he doesn't get the emotional lift (felt by people reading the thread) of Ed talking to someone and convincing them to stay.

He has to pick someone readers will believe has left him an opening. That there is no opening -- "I didn't leave because of the rules, I left because you're a jerk" (paraphrased) is of no consequence. What is of consequence is that he believes there is and he thinks he can paint a door on a wall and get people to reach for the handle as if they're looking at a door -- if that makes sense.

So he picks someone who has addressed him as a person. Someone with history. Someone who reminds him of the good times. Someone who, if you go back and look at her post, is a sympathetic figure. Someone who has not told him he's the biggest dick in dickland.

(That this person gave no opening, and that this person had no interest in this manipulation and is above his crap, is obvious. Had it not been Jill, it would have been someone else -- What Exit? or Fenris are two easy examples -- Ed would have wanted to take on this magical ride. And had there been no openings, he would have invented one -- by addressing the angriest part of the angriest post of someone who was going to leave. And he would have started it with language implying the person would be back to read it and ended it by saying something like "I hope you'll return to the SDMB so we can start over.")

And then he launches into his "no no no, I didn't mean any of it like this! I can explain! Things will get better! See, I just don't like seeing women called cunts. All that other stuff was just ancillary, and I didn't think it would happen, and I'm sorry it did! I'm sorry!" bidniss.

Because he thinks it will work.

Not because he necessarily means any of it.

In fact, I don't think he does. Look at the sentence length, verb/noun phrase size and word choice of the first four words of the first paragraph -- "It wasn't my intention" versus the length of the first four words of the last paragraph -- "Perhaps it's too late."

He's gone from a nominalized (turned into a noun) subject -- one third of a clause -- to a complete sentence. And I am probably boring everyone here but Lib (because I have a feeling he has not so much topics he isn't interested in as topics he hasn't considered recently), but this is relevant because every word he types is carefully chosen.

He has to LOOK like he's learned a lesson. He has to LOOK desperate. He has to LOOK like he's so flustered that he's resorting to short sentences. (If he'd actually learned it, the smooth language of the first paragraph would be gone, and the whole of it would be fairly short sentences, maybe with a few in-sentence transition words.) But he hasn't. His sentences are long, his clauses are long, and he's not using the language of the emergency -- "Call the doctor!" "I broke my leg!" "The Internet is down!" (Separate situations, for the confused.)

But if he's not flustered by the tone and content of Jill's post and my post and Fenris's post and the whole last week ("things have been hectic"), ain't nothing in what he's written previous to those last few paragraphs, and especially the last one, that's going to take him there.

5) See if that works.

So far, the responses to the actual apology have been much better, from Ed's perspective, than the responses to the attempt were. This is partly because they were fairly quick to the punch (before the elements of the apology were as obvious) and partly because the apology was substantively different from anything Ed's ever posted before.

So it looked like Ed was sincere in his desire to change.

Hell, maybe he is.

But I'll believe that when he's sincere and contrite when the board isn't about to burn to the ground.

And I'm sorry this is so ridiculously long, but message board software doesn't allow for cut tags. And again, I could be off about everything here. I just see a lot of conscious and unconscious elements at work here that make this anything but sincere.

If the Skip thread turns out to be my curtain call, at least it's funny.

Quote:

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Originally posted by SmartAleq

I'm not up on all the fucking pissy ass rules but I don't THINK I'll be getting banninated over that one... Then again, who the fuck knows?

---

Some cunt named Ed. Or maybe SkipMagic, if he's hoping he'll get a promotion for playing Bad Cop during all of this.

I just posted this exchange (from December) between me and Ed on the SD:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/sho ... tcount=211

I hope it's my final post there, but I may have more spew to unload. Congrats to those who've kicked the habit completely.

I'm really having to bite my tongue over this Skip bullshit. This, this is exactly the reason we need to be able to Pit the mods. Glad, I'm not drinking tonight or I know I'd be banned by now.

Quote:

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Originally posted by prr

I hope it's my final post there, but I may have more spew to unload. Congrats to those who've kicked the habit completely.

---

Fantastic. Here's how I read his post:

"You're exaggerating when you say that a lot of people will leave if we don't put The Pit back the way it was, but let's suppose a bunch of people came and said they wanted The Pit to be fair game for anything, which nobody in this or any other thread has ever seriously suggested.

If a bunch of people wanted to do something your post didn't even sniff at suggesting, I'd tell them to walk.

So there. I answered your supposed exaggeration with one that should show you how much I respect dissenting opinions."

That about the size of it?

Yeah, pretty much what I got out of it. That's what has driven me off, the "If you don't like it, get the hell out" attitude.

Quote:

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Originally posted by iampunha

That about the size of it?

---

Yes, though my amazement is even greater that Ed explicitly noted his eagerness to scuttle the SD and take a job at McDonald's before he would consider changing his position. He was, to my mind, trying to stifle dissent from the get-go by letting us know how futile even the most powerful objections we could offer were.

Now that he's seen what even mild objections lead to, he's changed his tune.

Does the phrase "schoolyard bully" ring a bell? "I'll take any punishment any of you weaklings here could ever dish out. I'll beat you up one at a time, or all together, you pathetic wimps!" [Little girl comes up and slaps him across his face.] "WAHHHH!!! I'm sorry, I didn't meant it. Please stop hitting me!!"

This one is much better.

Yeah, Q.E.D, I almost had a warm, fuzzy feeling until Skip fucked it up for me. Nothings going to change.

That's the apology we've been talking about, QED. The "I'm the real victim here" apology. The "I just wanted to make everybody play nice" apology from someone who played like a mean and cruel bully, declaring that if 20,000 people wanted to leave, he wouldn't care. The "If you come back, I promise not to hit you anymore" apology.

It was all about what he didn't mean to do, not about what he did. It was about "mistakes", not deliberate actions. It's about racing to the high ground to stake a claim, with "Gee, it breaks my heart that people are leaving," when he's already said, "Go. See if I care."

It's the apology of a weasel who isn't doing any staff changes or any changes of consequence to make things better. I imagine he's humiliated by having to take even a conciliatory tone. And once he's gotten people back, that tone will disappear to the void from which it came.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Oakminster

Hmmm...kinda wondering if somebody above Ed noticed all that "record high traffic" happened to be in the outbound lanes?

From what I've seen, the Dope has fewer threads, fewer posts, and the overall quality of content is in a nosedive.
"To a nicer guy, it couldn't happen". As I posted in the "Passive Resistance" thread, my best stuff is going to be posted right here at Domebo. I hope others will do the same.

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Why not stop posting there altogether, instead of "saving your best stuff" for here?
Honestly, if you "and others" are trying to support DoMeBo, and honestly think the SDMB is in a nosedive, why not move here 100%?

J

F'real.

Quote:

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Originally posted by McNutty

Quote:

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Originally posted by Excalibre

At any rate, the passive voice is not what made his semi-apology irksome, and I don't think he used it any more than one would expect in any similar stretch of written English.

---

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if you don't understand what's irksome about using the passive voice here, you might be prone to making wimpy-ass, I-don't-really-mean-it-all-that-much apologies. "I'm sorry I poked you in the eye" is a thousand times better as an apology than "I'm sorry you were poked in the eye," even though "Joe delivered the newspaper" is not necessarily a thousand times better than "the newspaper was delivered." There's no comparison to "similar stretches of written English." In an apology, acknowledging fault is a critical ingredient, and if you use choose your words in a way that merely acknowledges that something bad happened instead of you did something bad, then it's a shitty apology.

---

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if he had avoided the passive voice in the one single sentence in which he used it, it would still have been an inadequate non-apology, because it wasn't the use of the passive voice that made it inadequate.

Quote:

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And no, he wouldn't have to rewrite the sentence. All he has to say is, "I wasn't intending to alienate the SDMB community, but to the extent that I did, I deeply regret it."

---

This sentence was not the one with the passive voice. :D See? It's not the passive voice that's the problem here.

Like I said several times already, I'm not defending his half-assed apology here. It's just that it's definitely not the passive voice that makes it shitty. It was just kind of a throwaway point because people were misusing grammatical terminology.

Quote:

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Originally posted by iampunha

I expect people who fuck up to admit it, full-on -- to say they're sorry and not go all passive on me.

That's why we differentiate between active and passive voice. That's why we teach the differences between active and passive voice.

---

Apparently we don't teach the differences between active and passive voice. Because the sentences you specifically cited as problematic don't use the passive voice. "to the extent that this has occurred . . ." is in the active voice. See what I mean? It's not the passive voice that's the problem here. "Passive voice" is an actual, specific syntactic phenomenon. It doesn't just mean "wishy-washy writing".

Quote:

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Originally posted by Q.E.D.

This one is much better.

---

If by much better you mean it isn't all "Maybe some mistakes were made, and I deeply regret them. But wait, I'm going to make this place so much cooler!"

I'm not trying to be rude. I've just had my fill of Ed for ... ever.

Huh--interesting reaction from Ed for Skip's fuck-up.

For those not reading the drama: Tuckerfan uses the word "jerks" to describe all the powers that be at the SDMB-he doesn't restrict it to an individual. Skip invents the new rule "You can't attack a group that someone in the thread is a member of" (paraphrased)--which would be huge news to, say, Bricker...or Lib (Hey Lib--anyone used "fudies" or made fun of Christians in a thread you participated in? 'Cause it's against the rules.)--and then warns him. Then when Oakminister complains, Skip spins the complaint into it's own thread making it look like Oak started the thread. Finally, when everyone (really--100% of the posts) are quite justifiably pigpiling Skip over all these things, Ed comes in and says

Quote:

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...I think we all need to step back from the computer, play with the kids, take a long walk, clear our heads, give some thought to what's really important.

---

and locks the thread.

Thank you mommy.

Good fucking goddamn. Is it just me or is that incredibly dismissive and condescending?

:rolleyes:

eta--fixed nested parentheses and edited for clarity.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Fenris

Huh--interesting reaction from Ed for Skip's fuck-up.

. . .

---

The fact that Skip is still a moderator pretty much destroys any possibility that they actually give a shit about how their customers are treated. They would have gotten rid of that guy years ago if they did.

I suppose the "show, don't tell" principle applies here. After all, anyone can tell you they're sorry.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Jill

I was just about to post that link. I can't believe out of all the people who've complained, and all the people who have politely tried to explain our displeasure to him, that he picked me to apologize to. :shock: I mean, I know it was meant for everyone, but the fact that he was responding directly to me from my post to him. . . I don't know, I'm just gobsmacked, I guess. I have no friggin' clue how to respond.

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Wow, stole my thunder you did Jill. We see who rates on the Dope now. ;)

I missed the Skip mistakes as Ed (wisely) closed the thread but he could not help adding some more dismissive snark on the closure. I was being honest in my thread though. I'm done complaining and kibitzing. I'll sit back and observe from a distance while hanging out mostly here and in the Game Room there.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Fenris

(Hey Lib--anyone used "fudies" or made fun of Christians in a thread you participated in? 'Cause it's against the rules.

---

Nah. Fundie is okay because our beliefs are a choice. See? Watch this...

[...poof...]

Now I'm a godless atheist! Don't need no damn god.

[...poof...]

Now I'm a Muslim! Let me take this opportunity to denounce Al Qaeda.

[...poof...]

Now I'm a Jew! Oy vey!

[...poof...]

Now I'm a Christian again. Jesus is just all right by me.

Quote:

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Originally posted by iampunha

Quote:

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Originally posted by Liberal

We can all give you a hug, Jill. But that won't help. Know why? Because Ed's new improved apology with added bleach was designed to make you feel guilty. It's like the apology given to the beaten wife after she calls the cops and he's threatened with jail. He puts himself across as the new victim, and only the woman with the black eye can save him.

---

I agree with the guilt element, though I'd shy away from the domestic abuse angle. I think it was more that he really wanted us to see that he knew he'd fucked up.

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He really does remind me of the guilty husband, iampunha. That same wheedling tone - trying to blame the victim for what happened.

I also agree that he picked Jill for the same reason. He wasn't going to try that one of you guys, he chose her.

He reminds me more and more of my brother-in-law, who is appx. the same age if my info on Ed is correct.

Excalibre, here is the post where we talk about the passive sentence in question:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=558&sid=d906144df7cf9f6105b1f aa7a532164b#p10873

For the record, this is the sentence in question, which you and I have already agreed is in the passive voice:

"Communication has certainly been an issue and could stand to be improved."

Would you like me to quote you me, SmartAleq and Fenris bemoaning his use of the passive voice AND that we had a problem with it? Would you like me to quote you as saying that's the only sentence in the passive voice? It's all here, dude. (In fact, I had it all copied and pasted, and then my word document closed. I'm convinced Zotti's behind it somehow. Fuck him for it, too.)

Here's the thing:

We have all, all 650 or whatever many of us are here, agreed that the sentence in question is in the passive voice.

This pissed off some of us.

It did not piss off others of us.

I am not disputing that you didn't and don't give a shit if he uses the active, passive, subversive or locative voice because your primary concern is -- and rightfully so -- that the guy's a jackass and it doesn't matter if he uses the voice of Queen Bloody Elizabeth (Mary's much shorter-lived sister).

But it mattered to some of us, and it makes no sense for you to tell us that it doesn't matter when, to us, it does.

Quote:

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Because the sentences you specifically cited as problematic don't use the passive voice.

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I think you're confusing me with McNutty. I don't recall -- though I'm happy for you to go back through the thread and show me otherwise -- alleging that any sentences were passive when they were not.

Or perhaps you took my "It was weak" comment here:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=558&start=50#p11271

as being synonymous with passive. If you did, don't :) Or if you got confused between me and McNutty -- who did, in the grand shuffle of things, pick up the argument and talk about a sentence that wasn't in the passive voice ("It wasn't my intention [blah blah blah I am a giant shit]").

So.

I do know what the passive voice is and how it differs from the active voice. Apparently not using the term when it didn't apply was insufficient:) At any rate, I hope this clears things up and we can go back to telling Ed, in his spectacular absence, to fuck off.

Quote:

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Originally posted by NinetyWt

He really does remind me of the guilty husband, iampunha. That same wheedling tone - trying to blame the victim for what happened.

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OK. I've no problem being told so by people with more experience with the issue. (Don't mean to seem curt, but ... is there anything else I ought to say?)

Quote:

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Originally posted by iampunha

We have all, all 650 or whatever many of us are here, agreed that the sentence in question is in the passive voice.

---

It's 710 as of this posting.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Liberal

Quote:

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Originally posted by iampunha

We have all, all 650 or whatever many of us are here, agreed that the sentence in question is in the passive voice.

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It's 710 as of this posting.

---

Damn, dude. I'm glad I didn't go with my mainstays for Random Number Guess (though as mainstays, I guess they're not random numbers):

17
87

710 is my new number. And every time I use it, I'll think of a guy on the Internet I've never met.

(I should probably NOT tell this story at work ...)

Quote:

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Originally posted by iampunha

Or perhaps you took my "It was weak" comment here:

http://mofobo.ignorelist.com/forum/view ... =50#p11271

as being synonymous with passive. If you did, don't :) Or if you got confused between me and McNutty -- who did, in the grand shuffle of things, pick up the argument and talk about a sentence that wasn't in the passive voice ("It wasn't my intention [blah blah blah I am a giant shit]").

---

The only thing anyone disagreed about was the use of the passive voice. Several posts complained about it, and I pointed out that it wasn't pervasive in his apology, and that his apology would have been inadequate even had he avoided the passive voice in the one sentence he used it in. You, in one of the novel-length posts you addressed to me, complained about that "weak" (but obviously not passive) sentence between complaints about his use of the passive voice. So I took it to be complaining about the passive voice. If that's not what you meant, your post is even more confusing.

Honestly, I don't even know why you're continuing this. I just dropped into the thread to mention that the complaints about the "passive voice" were pretty much off-base -- given that almost all of it was active voice, and given my guess that, had he not used the passive voice in the one sentence where he used it, the "apology" would still have been seen as inadequate.

If your one single issue with Ed's "apology" is that he used the passive voice in one sentence within it, fine. That's kind of nutty in my opinion, but whatever. If your complaint is about the rest of the apology as well, then why are you so upset about what I said? The problem with that apology -- for everyone except, perhaps, you -- was not that he happened to use one instance of the passive voice. The problem was that his apology was vague and half-assed, and the fact that it was vague and half-assed does not hinge on that one instance of the passive voice.

It just sort of annoys me that people are framing their (legitimate) irritation with what Ed said in grammatical terms that are not really (at least for most of us) actually the crux of the issue. Surely you don't actually have a problem with my first post in the thread, in which I responded to several complaints that implied that Ed had used the passive voice pervasively -- all I did was point out that the one use of the passive voice was not really why the apology rankled, but rather that the apology was defective throughout, including all those active voice sentences.

Quote:

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Originally posted by iampunha

OK. I've no problem being told so by people with more experience with the issue. (Don't mean to seem curt, but ... is there anything else I ought to say?)

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No, no, nothing. I just wanted to add that bit, as someone who's heard their share of it. :)

Quote:

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Originally posted by NinetyWt

Quote:

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Originally posted by pedescribe

I'll say this. If Brewha (or someone else) hadn't joined this board immediately, I don't think things would have turned out this way. Those few first posters started a trickle, which turned into a rivulet... the rest is history. There was a certain energy that day; as one person after another signed up, it carried a lot of other people with it.

---

---

Good to know I can be so persuasive! :D I must only use these powers for good!

I know what you mean though. A lot of recognizable dopers signed up right away. That's what really got the momentum coming over here.

It's nice that Ed apologized, I guess. Had he listened to us before he started his royal decrees, that would have kept me there. If he had rescinded when people started complaining, I would have given him the benefit of the doubt. But, he waited until hundreds of people left before considering that his decisions might not be the correct ones. Too, little too late.

Besides, I just got here. It's feeling like home.



Oh, and as far as the metal plate goes - they only think I don't know it's there. But, it's not metal its a super composite alien alloy that was installed when they abducted me and it shows up like skull tissue in an xray but they dont realize that I have reprogrammed it to block their transmissions and read their minds oh they're worried now...

Quote:

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Originally posted by What Exit?

[snip]I'll sit back and observe from a distance while hanging out mostly here and in the Game Room there.

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Any chance of moving the D&D thread over here 'cause I really like it, but I don't want to go there anymore. Oh yeah, I'm selfish like that.

Also, Exy and pun can ya'll take the grammar debate elsewhere? Luv ya, but it's hurting my brain. ;)

Quote:

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Originally posted by BooBoo

Also, Exy and pun can ya'll take the grammar debate elsewhere? Luv ya, but it's hurting my brain. ;)

---

Look, sorry. There's no actual point under debate (although I don't blame you for not wanting to wade through all those posts.) I can't even figure out what I said that upset him so much.

Quote:

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Originally posted by BooBoo

Quote:

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Originally posted by What Exit?

[snip]I'll sit back and observe from a distance while hanging out mostly here and in the Game Room there.

---

Any chance of moving the D&D thread over here 'cause I really like it, but I don't want to go there anymore. Oh yeah, I'm selfish like that.

---

I already warned the players it might eventually move over, but I would close out the current adventure first. I'm guessing another month or two at least. Sorry about that. All but two active players are already here and I hope to convince the other two to follow the game if it comes to it.

OK, last post on Ed and shitty writing. (Here. No, really.)

Quote:

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Originally posted by Excalibre

You, in one of the novel-length posts you addressed to me, complained about that "weak" (but obviously not passive) sentence between complaints about his use of the passive voice. So I took it to be complaining about the passive voice. If that's not what you meant, your post is even more confusing.

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What I meant was that it was weak. I showed how I felt it was weak. You can go back and look at the post again, I can try to explain again, or we can agree that Ed is a puppykicking sonofabitch.

I vote for option 3.

Quote:

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It just sort of annoys me that people are framing their (legitimate) irritation with what Ed said in grammatical terms that are not really (at least for most of us) actually the crux of the issue.

---

I framed (at least, if memory serves) my argument around two issues:

1) His use of language was garbage (including but oh so thoroughly not limited to passive voice and noun/verb phrase length)

2) He acts like he's coming down from on high every time he posts.

3) He's a jackass absent those two factors.

(Ed's special in that he can be a fuckhead on two points and have it translate to three.)

Quote:

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Surely you don't actually have a problem with my first post in the thread, in which I responded to several complaints that implied that Ed had used the passive voice pervasively -- all I did was point out that the one use of the passive voice was not really why the apology rankled, but rather that the apology was defective throughout, including all those active voice sentences.

---

I agree with you that the bulk of Ed's apology attempt and apology success were not framed passively.

(For the record, the only thing that upset me to any significant length was when you implied I didn't know my active from my passive. Since that seems to have faded into the mists, I'd be happy to keep grammar discussions to debate and answer forums, with the exception that anyone who tries to school me here gets shot down with my sniper rifle.)

Quote:

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Originally posted by Excalibre

Quote:

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Originally posted by BooBoo

Also, Exy and pun can ya'll take the grammar debate elsewhere? Luv ya, but it's hurting my brain. ;)

---

Look, sorry. There's no actual point under debate (although I don't blame you for not wanting to wade through all those posts.) I can't even figure out what I said that upset him so much.

---

Everybody's under a lot of stress right now. Ya'll settle it the old-fashioned way, go out in the yard and beat each other with your English Comp books until only one remains. :lol:

[quote=What Exit?]

Quote:

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Originally posted by BooBoo

Quote:

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Originally posted by "What Exit?":udx9cyw9

[snip]I'll sit back and observe from a distance while hanging out mostly here and in the Game Room there.

---

Any chance of moving the D&D thread over here 'cause I really like it, but I don't want to go there anymore. Oh yeah, I'm selfish like that.

---

I already warned the players it might eventually move over, but I would close out the current adventure first. I'm guessing another month or two at least. Sorry about that. All but two active players are already here and I hope to convince the other two to follow the game if it comes to it.[/quote:udx9cyw9]


That's cool, I just really enjoy the adventure and will miss reading it daily. Don't be sorry on my account, I'm just selfishly stomping my foot and saying "bring it to me 'cause I wants it". Seriously, that is the one thread I will really miss...you guys are awesome.
[/hijack]

I'm kind of surprised that Ed hasn't tried to trot out a post from "Cecil Adams". You know, voice from "on high" validating all the shit moves that have been done? Maybe Ed actually realizes that most everyone already knows about this little conceit of his.

He probably doesn't want the ensuing wave of "sock puppet" screams.

Quote:

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Originally posted by RobuSensei

I'm kind of surprised that Ed hasn't tried to trot out a post from "Cecil Adams". You know, voice from "on high" validating all the shit moves that have been done? Maybe Ed actually realizes that most everyone already knows about this little conceit of his.

---

Yes, RobuSensei, there is a Cecil Adams. He exists as certainly as truth and snark and the fight against ignorance exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Cecil Adams. It would be as dreary as if there were no RobuSenseis.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Liberal

He probably doesn't want the ensuing wave of "sock puppet" screams.

---

Amusing on the one hand, but since it takes longtime posters telling him they're leaving because of him for him to even attempt to look sincerely sorry for fundamentally changing The Pit and preventing us from Pitting mods (not to mention doing these things spontaneously), why would he care if people said "Hey, no fair bringing out Cecil: Everyone knows you're him."?

Hell, I'd argue the only reason he hasn't made a sock for himself and promoted it to mod just so there'd be someone sucking his cock in agreement and not named Marley or SkipMagic ...

Nevermind.

God, what if all his admins are his own socks. Wouldn't that be a hoot!

Quote:

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Originally posted by Liberal

God, what if all his admins are his own socks. Wouldn't that be a hoot!

---

Maybe he forgot he was logged in as Zotti and not Skippy when he closed that ATMB thread.

Does anyone besides me remember the Dope thread where Guin had found tghe personal ad of some nutjob who had like a 37 page list of characteristics his ideal mate was to have? Because Ed is starting to sound more and more like that guy.

Well, there is one nice thing about the Second Official Apology: he admits to his motivation for that idiotic Rule Two, which was (as I was convinced) to protect his poor widdle Mods from abuse. (Anyone think Protectee Numero Uno was Skippy? Let's see a show of hands. Dammit, guys, don't raise both hands!)


An interesting sidelight to Ed's cunt fixation: to illustrate the weirdness of Rule Two I twice, for illustrative purposes, pointed out that in his world it was perfectly acceptable to say (may Og forgive me for uttering this calumny a third time), "Mother Teresa is a cunt!", but utterly unacceptable to hurl that insult at, say, a passing troll. Welcome to the world of Unintended Consequences, Ed.


'Twould be interesting to know what is prompting him to change his tune. The fact that a third (or more) of his active membership has signed on with alternative boards that effectivly did not exist a week ago? The fact that those boards appear to be flourishing? Has the hit count at SDMB dropped significantly is the past few days? Has he been lurking here and at Giraffe and finally grasped the doo-doo in which deep he is? [Hedley Lamar]Why am I asking you?[/HL]

Quote:

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Originally posted by BJMoose

Has the hit count at SDMB dropped significantly is the past few days? Has he been lurking here and at Giraffe and finally grasped the doo-doo in which deep he is?

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ISTR that I could not see this subforum when I was not logged in. But I don't know if that recollection is correct. If it is, then Ed would be a Member. :lol:

Here is a histogram of Straight Dope traffic. Click on the Max tab to see the trend more clearly.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Zenster

When I confronted Zottie with the most egregious case, involving Ukulele Ike's meanspirited plagarising of over 1,000 words of my work with a 1% total alteration of content, he essentially told me to suck it up. I was banned shortly thereafter and only returned once to see if they migrated my "SDMB Art Gallery" thread, which they did not. To have deleted such a tremendous creative effort by the SDMB community told me all I needed to know.

---

This doesn't address your main point, I realize, but FWIW, I believe old threads have all been restored (although not necessarily indexed for searching).

The Ultimate Straight Dope Art Thread

Cool thread, BTW.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Tuckerfan

Does anyone besides me remember the Dope thread where Guin had found tghe personal ad of some nutjob who had like a 37 page list of characteristics his ideal mate was to have? Because Ed is starting to sound more and more like that guy.

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Was that the guy who had specifications on his mate's public hair length and breadth and what kind of panties she could wear, and when?

Oh, and also, when I am not logged in and I load Domebo, I cannot see the other board subforum, but when the system logs me out (what fun!) and I am in the subforum, I can see it. I can even read it.

If puppykicking sonofabitch is not registered here, though, I doubt this will be a problem for him.

Quote:

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Originally posted by BJMoose

(Anyone think Protectee Numero Uno was Skippy? Let's see a show of hands. Dammit, guys, don't raise both hands!)

---

Almost fell out of my chair raising both feet, actually.

Good thing is, I regained my balance in time to get a good idea for what the birthing position feels like.

Bad thing is, I am a man, so this knowledge is almost worse than useless.

Quote:

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Originally posted by iampunha

Quote:

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Originally posted by Tuckerfan

Does anyone besides me remember the Dope thread where Guin had found tghe personal ad of some nutjob who had like a 37 page list of characteristics his ideal mate was to have? Because Ed is starting to sound more and more like that guy.

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Was that the guy who had specifications on his mate's public hair length and breadth and what kind of panties she could wear, and when?

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And that she had to ask permission to tell him she loved him. Yup.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Tuckerfan

And that she had to ask permission to tell him she loved him. Yup.

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Yup. (Probably not safe for work.)

http://www.ck.cx/archive/811/

Vomit.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Zenster

When I confronted Zottie with the most egregious case, involving Ukulele Ike's meanspirited plagarising of over 1,000 words of my work with a 1% total alteration of content, he essentially told me to suck it up. I was banned shortly thereafter and only returned once to see if they migrated my "SDMB Art Gallery" thread, which they did not. To have deleted such a tremendous creative effort by the SDMB community told me all I needed to know.

---

A work of art like that can't go unremarked: it's stunning. How did a master of smilies such as yourself come to be banned from the Dope? (I hope you don't mind me asking).

Quote:

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Originally posted by Johnny

ISTR that I could not see this subforum when I was not logged in. But I don't know if that recollection is correct. If it is, then Ed would be a Member. :lol:

---

Psst. Guess who

Quote:

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Where people go on Straightdope.com:

* boards.straightdope.com - 51.0%
* straightdope.com - 49.0%

---

So much for Cecil being the big draw! Seems there is not a lot in it though.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Ninety Wt

He really does remind me of the guilty husband, iampunha. That same wheedling tone - trying to blame the victim for what happened.

I also agree that he picked Jill for the same reason. He wasn't going to try that one of you guys, he chose her.

He reminds me more and more of my brother-in-law, who is appx. the same age if my info on Ed is correct.

---

Totally, +1. As another woman who's heard the chapter, verse and footnotes of this particular dynamic I can absolutely attest that he is behaving like a fist swingin' hubby calling from jail to get the charges dropped. It's making me see red, in fact, every time I read more of his weaselly, snivelling non-apologies. The fact that he's not actually taken any action to undo his mess is telling and I don't think we're ever going to see a substantive change to his position, let alone to the rules or moderating team of the SDMB. What a cunt.

Oh, and as for telling us all to go out and play and stop bothering the grownups and making a mess in the house? FUCK YOU ED! Not in the mood for coming up with anything creative, sorry... :evil:

You selling porn? No? Well, forget making any money on the internet, guy. Oh, you got a column where people ask you questions and you give a smart-ass answer? Here, let me show you a million blogs where other people do the same shit for free. Ed's living in the past and I don't have the heart to tell him.

Quote:

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Originally posted by SmartAleq

Oh, and as for telling us all to go out and play and stop bothering the grownups and making a mess in the house? FUCK YOU ED! Not in the mood for coming up with anything creative, sorry... :evil:

---

I think it is 87 kinds of precious that he thinks it's worse to say to you -- for example:

"You fucking cunt."

Than

"I have never met such a cretinous mass of slimy waste of oxygen than you. You have reinvented disgust and put it on display like so much bilious garbage, you cur of hitherto-undiscovered levels. I'd invent another Internet just to have one you weren't on.

Your mother should have aborted you. Her mother should have aborted her. And HER mother should have had her tubes tied. So great is your offense against not just humanity but carbon-based life forms.

When history books are written, they will note that Hitler was your understudy, you singular blight on matter."

Yeah. Creativity, eh?

Way better than calling you a cunt. And unless I've misread the new Pit rules, the above exercise would be allowed there.

(Unless it was directed at Skippy, because we can't call him anything these days. Mommy will get mad, after all.)

Mommy's always mad, pun. It's our fault she has to hit us, you know.

Quote:

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Originally posted by BooBoo

Mommy's always mad, pun. It's our fault she has to hit us, you know.

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Well, it does hurt her more than it hurts us, after all.

I just wish we didn't have to wear long sleeves all the time.

Quote:

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

Quote:

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Where people go on Straightdope.com:

* boards.straightdope.com - 51.0%
* straightdope.com - 49.0%

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So much for Cecil being the big draw! Seems there is not a lot in it though.

---

To be fair, the people who visit the boards daily tend to load a LOT of pages, whereas readers visiting the columns will likely be loading only a page or two. The fact that it's even close indicates that there are a lot more people reading the columns who never read the boards.

Quote:

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Originally posted by iampunha

Well, it does hurt her more than it hurts us, after all.

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We're fixin' to find out about that point, my friend.

Quote:

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Originally posted by BooBoo

Psst. Guess who

---

In that case, it's safe to assume that he's following this and other discussions. There's no way he can't know -- really know -- how madly he messed up, and how much he's alienated long-time contributing posters. So why hasn't he rescinded his silly rules?

I remember a time when people were 'pitted' in GD. Once that was prohibited, it seems that SDMB became less lively. Now, I agree that GD should not be The Pit; but when someone posts something truly idiotic there, I don't see anything wrong (in the circumstance) of calling him a freakin' idiot. But given that there was a Pit, the restriction was not unreasonable. To censor certain words and phrases, or not certain words but certain usages of them, in a forum specifically set up to allow people to 'flame away' is bone-headed.

Ed's apologies ring hollow. But I know how difficult it can be to admit a mistake. Ed's second apology sounds a bit like someone who knows he's made a mistake, knows he's wrong, and is at least trying to be sincere. But the argument having progressed so far, it's not enough. He needs to unequivocally fall on his sword. And he needs to reverse the rule changes. Without that, he does sound like the battering husband.

As for the Mods, I personally have not had any run-ins. I have, though, disagreed with several of their decisions even if I didn't call them out on them. Should some of them be sacked? Yes. Should the Diaspora make that a prerequisite for returning? Not in my opinion; but then, I'm still posting there. I think that a compromise solution would be that certain Mods would be allowed to keep their positions, even if they don't deserve to, and:

• Ed must offer an unequivocal apology without trying to frame himself in a good light. Take the sword out of the scabbard![/*:m:2fbtg91e]
• Mods must be Pittable;[/*:m:2fbtg91e]
• The language restrictions must be lifted;[/*:m:2fbtg91e]
• Members must be given the respect and consideration due to them as the ones who are providing content and value to the SDMB.[/*:m:2fbtg91e]

Even if all of that happens, the damage is in many cases irreparable. Some posters will not return. The rest of us? I'm posting here now, and I'm still posting there. But I usually don't feel the need to repeat myself in multiple places. Whatever my posting frequency was over there, it will go down because I'm posting here.

Exactly, pun! Never mind that NOBODY, outside of a coupla butthurt admin/mod cunts ever asked for or expected Sir Ed the Overachiever to fight their battles for them or to protect them from the lumps they had coming--oh no, he has to protect us all in spite of ourselves and dress it up in "oh, but I'm just protecting the frail little girl things from the horrible, evil c-word that makes them all break down and cry, poor things, they're such children." I've been called a cunt by way more than one person in my life and I don't expect I've heard it for the last time, but I can flatly state that it's never bothered me nearly as much to be CALLED a cunt as it does to have some misguided pansy use me as an excuse to ramrod through a rule because HE'S uncomfortable. Adding in the "no sexual insults" rule just makes it more glaringly obvious that the real problem is that Ed appointed himself hall monitor in a tough school when he's still just a chess club nerd wearing a meat suit. HE can't cut it in the Pit so rather than bow out and let someone thickskinned mod the place he waves his banstick around and demands that everybody ELSE change THEIR community standards to suit him.

Taking the shortcut words like "cunt" off the table merely insures a greater level of really accurately targeted invective--if I can't just come out and say something outright and have to think my way around a restriction I can guarantee it'll piss me off enough to ensure that what I finally come up with is gonna be weapons grade filth and invective that obeys the letter of the law while nevertheless assraping the spirit thereof unto near death. Too bad Ed's just too plain stoopid to figure this out on his own and too fucking stiff necked to listen to others who know what the hell they're talking about when they tell him "Dude, back AWAY from the minefield, srsly!"

Quote:

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Originally posted by Johnny

In that case, it's safe to assume that he's following this and other discussions.

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Maybe, maybe not:

Last visited: Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:25 pm

Maybe he has one of his minions checking this place occasionally to see what's going on. Maybe he's viewing anonymously. (I just loaded this board in another browser and could see our other-board subforum.)

And if he is checking it, what of it? He sees that we aren't pretending we hate him but that if anything, we're being nice because we don't want to get banned (I don't at least; I still get to search every five minutes)?

If what he's seen on the other board isn't enough, nothing he sees here is going to do a damn. And if what he's seen on the other board is enough (which I doubt), nothing he sees here is going to add much.

Let him read. Let him post. Let him defend himself here, where we can tell him how we really feel without having to censor ourselves because ooh, someone told him to fuck himself.

Quote:

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So why hasn't he rescinded his silly rules?

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Because in a dictatorship, the surest way to lose your power is to give up any of it.

Zotti changes anything back to how it was, and people will want more. (And rightfully so. It isn't his board alone.)

He doesn't want that. He wants to do what he sees fit, even if it means lots of people leave. Lots of people left during P2P1 (first pay-up) and more after P2P2, when it became quite clear that the administration didn't give a shit if you were a guest or a client.

At this point, he has invested so much in the idea that he is not a destructive force that I'm not sure anything will get him to stop tinkering.

(And in this experience, I am beginning to understand much more deeply why people argue for smaller government.)

Maybe the user name is just some joker, and not Ed at all.

Well, I posted my reply, for what it's worth.

Not even a warning for me. Interesting. Ed closing the thread without any attempt to defend Skip is probably as close to a public spanking as any mod is likely to get.

I just wanted to thank Borborygmi for the Art Gallery link. I downloaded the page for posterity. Too bad they mangled it when it was restored to the server. If anyone has a fix for that, my gratitude would be eternal.

NineToTheSky, I'm sure that you are unaware of the irony in calling me "a master of smilies". Being the old-fashioned curmudgeon that I am, I eschew smilies utterly. Many's the SDer who tried to lure me over to the dark side of emoticon useage. My curmudgeonly inclinations further force me to creatively pervert such frippery whenever the opportunity presents itself. Ergo, the Art Gallery. Also, for instance, take the following images:

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff61 ... age002.jpg

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff61 ... e002-1.jpg

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff61 ... e002-2.jpg

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff61 ... e002-6.jpg

All of them were created using Excel, yes, Excel the spreadsheet program. It is difficult to describe the pleasure of listening to my Microsoft Office application grind away as I bend it to my will. Should anyone feel inclined to accuse me of having dangerous amounts of spare time, I direct your attention to some Japanese loons who have created fully animated Excel versions of PacMan and Space Invaders.

http://roysworld.co.uk/?p=2725

I don't even want to think of the macros required to do that!

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Jill

Well, I posted my reply, for what it's worth.

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I'm sure the CL accountants are on it, calculating exactly that.

(Of the overall ten best posters, you're probably on the list. All I hope at this point is that WE don't lose you.)

You won't. And thank you for the compliment (I think? -- what's with the 'probably' disclaimer? ;) )

After the initial non-apology I almost felt sorry for Ed. It was obvious that he noticed that things were going wrong. There was a small chance that he was just very inapt at expressing actual contrition.
Now it becomes obvious that it was just more of the same shit that we always got.

Whenever the negative reactions are overwhelming we get half an apology, the suggestion to fuck off and get some fresh air until we forget about Ed's failure and no actual change at all.

Ed, I hope you live happily ever after as a private person, but may you pay dearly for everything you did on that board.

The issue to me is that I already have an on line place where I can debate but must remain polite to other posters (Una). And it's presented as such- must be polite. Not bullshit like "you can say anything you want except these 5 phrases (or whatever)" "Fuck you" doesn't offend me. I was far more offended by accusations of being a terrorist appoligist or traitor. So, the issue isn't
"don't be rude to other posters" but rather "don't use this set of terms directly to other posters, but you can use them to anyone else and say anyother really offensive thing to them"

It reminds me of the other rule I objected to in the pit - the 'no calling folks trolls' as if that was the most offensive thing evah.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Oakminster

Not even a warning for me. Interesting. Ed closing the thread without any attempt to defend Skip is probably as close to a public spanking as any mod is likely to get.

---

Skipmagic, sweetie, the grown-ups are talking. If you can sit down and be quiet over there until we're finished, Daddy will buy you some toy soldiers and then can tell them what to do.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Jill

Well, I posted my reply, for what it's worth.

---

Good post, Jill. One of the most frustrating things for me in this whole mess is so many posters thinking this is just about two rules in the Pit and thinking that they don't go to the Pit much, so it won't affect them*, and me not really being able to express what my gut and my head are telling me (that what is going on is a Bad Thing, but not really knowing why). You expressed very nicely why it is such a bad thing for our community.

*It might not affect them yet, but it will, in many different ways.

ETA: Okay, two of the most frustrating things.

Well, featherlou, in my half century I've had my nose rubbed in the fact that MOST people don't see the wider implications of ANYTHING and insist on focusing on the microcosm while the macrocosm goes totally to shit in a shoulder bag. Nits abound, and nitpickers to pick them, and trying to get them up to speed with what's REALLY going on is an exercise in explaining cosmology to a coliform... Forest, trees, that sort of thing...

What is wrong with Scylla. I know I am not a great writer, but how is it possible to miss the fact my long OP and followups and most of the other posts by other posters are not about the silliness of the dirty word list?

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/sho ... tcount=167

I think he posts drunk or stoned sometimes.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Liberal

I think he posts drunk or stoned sometimes.

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I think that's probably it.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Scylla

It should be inherently obvious that some of the extreme and hateful behavior presents possible problems for Ed and whatever company happens to own this place at the moment. At times this place has had spillover into the real world. Suppose somebody kills themself because of a feud here? Suppose they kill somebody else? Suppose somebody loses a job because of something somebody says here?

Some of the particularly hateful behavior here may cross legal lines. Is it verbal assault? What if it demonstrably damages somebody?

---

Has anyone actually provided a link to one of these nasty outbursts of virulent verbosity and expletives?

Scylla is a goddamn self-indulgent, arrogant, ass. He's one of the fucktards I'll be glad to be away from. Cunt.

I think he is a hypocritical, disingenuous cock. That might have something to do with it.

To be fair, ivan, I think they might be referencing private emails from posters to staff. I'd think that there would be an appreciable amount, and some people are just rude, no matter who they're communicating with.

I believe Veb alluded to this earlier (in a different thread).

Hmm. Scylla seems to be a big hit with the ladies.

Quote:

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

Quote:

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Originally posted by Scylla

It should be inherently obvious that some of the extreme and hateful behavior presents possible problems for Ed and whatever company happens to own this place at the moment. At times this place has had spillover into the real world. Suppose somebody kills themself because of a feud here? Suppose they kill somebody else? Suppose somebody loses a job because of something somebody says here?

Some of the particularly hateful behavior here may cross legal lines. Is it verbal assault? What if it demonstrably damages somebody?

---

Has anyone actually provided a link to one of these nasty outbursts of virulent verbosity and expletives?

---

Well, in order to do so the assertion would have to have some, like, validity or something. :roll: Yah, good luck wid dat...

Quote:

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Scylla

It should be inherently obvious that some of the extreme and hateful behavior presents possible problems for Ed and whatever company happens to own this place at the moment. At times this place has had spillover into the real world. Suppose somebody kills themself because of a feud here? Suppose they kill somebody else? Suppose somebody loses a job because of something somebody says here?

Some of the particularly hateful behavior here may cross legal lines. Is it verbal assault? What if it demonstrably damages somebody?

---

Has anyone actually provided a link to one of these nasty outbursts of virulent verbosity and expletives?

---

Well, there WAS that whole Stage Manager thing. There was definitely some potential for legal fallout there. I'm not sure that the SDMB admins particularly want that put forth as an example however.

Okay, this may be controversial and touchy. Beware.

I'm a little bit confused about what What Exit is attempting to do over there. It seems like a lot of rope-a-dope and pulled punches to me, but I'm sure he can explain. He and I have had our differences, but he is so good natured that he wouldn't let things go until we kissed and made up — which I'm glad we did, but he still seems to have that really really driving urge to facilitate and mitigate. And so, there's a lot of "Bad Ed! Bad Dex! Bad mods! Here's what you did wrong! I keep hoping you'll respond the right way so I can come back."

I don't know. What Exit? What gives? What are you trying to accomplish over there. Are you pretty much just biding your time until you try to work things out among everyone?

Quote:

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Originally posted by What Exit?

What is wrong with Scylla. I know I am not a great writer, but how is it possible to miss the fact my long OP and followups and most of the other posts by other posters are not about the silliness of the dirty word list?

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/sho ... tcount=167

---

I don't know why people are unwilling to admit this, but Scylla is a fucking idiot. This is just more evidence.

And his tedious fucking stories are not good. Anyone who things those things constitute good writing is also dumb.

Scylla's stupid fucking attitude, as expressed in that horrible post of his, makes me start to wonder if all the political theorists are right who have proposed that right-wing ideology is based upon a maladjusted desire to have an omnipotent authority over them. It certainly describes him to a T. What a complete fuckup he is.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Excalibre

Quote:

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Originally posted by What Exit?

What is wrong with Scylla. I know I am not a great writer, but how is it possible to miss the fact my long OP and followups and most of the other posts by other posters are not about the silliness of the dirty word list?

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/sho ... tcount=167

---

I don't know why people are unwilling to admit this, but Scylla is a fucking idiot. This is just more evidence.

And his tedious fucking stories are not good. Anyone who things those things constitute good writing is also dumb.

Scylla's stupid fucking attitude, as expressed in that horrible post of his, makes me start to wonder if all the political theorists are right who have proposed that right-wing ideology is based upon a maladjusted desire to have an omnipotent authority over them. It certainly describes him to a T. What a complete fuckup he is.

---

Waitwaitwaitwaitwhat?

You are not the same Shodan that I remember.

Quote:

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Originally posted by pedescribe

Waitwaitwaitwaitwhat?

You are not the same Shodan that I remember.

---

Well, I was visited by these three ghosts one night . . .

Regards,
Excalibre

Quote:

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Originally posted by Liberal

Okay, this may be controversial and touchy. Beware.

I'm a little bit confused about what What Exit is attempting to do over there. It seems like a lot of rope-a-dope and pulled punches to me, but I'm sure he can explain. He and I have had our differences, but he is so good natured that he wouldn't let things go until we kissed and made up — which I'm glad we did, but he still seems to have that really really driving urge to facilitate and mitigate. And so, there's a lot of "Bad Ed! Bad Dex! Bad mods! Here's what you did wrong! I keep hoping you'll respond the right way so I can come back."

I don't know. What Exit? What gives? What are you trying to accomplish over there. Are you pretty much just biding your time until you try to work things out among everyone?

---

I not leaving the Dope. I am unhappy with what has been going on but I actually still hope they can fix the Dope. I tried to find the politest way to strongly give my opinion. I will mostly be here it looks like. If Ed can find a way to work with the community I think he can still right the ship. I also found the thread was my way of venting. I am not especially looking to go back but I also don't want to see the Dope collapse. I don't consider this an Us vs. Them situation, in fact it feels too much like an Us vs. Us situation.

I don't think I actually complained about Dex did I? I did clearly but politely complain about the Modding of Ed and Lynn in the pit.

Does that help? Even to me it looks disjointed.
Maybe I should just say I am not sure what I am trying to accomplish other than venting. I know my venting does not measure up to any typical venting rants.
Beside it cannot hurt to retain a cordial relationship between all three boards. I think I've been consistent in saying that from the start.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Excalibre

Quote:

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Originally posted by What Exit?

What is wrong with Scylla. I know I am not a great writer, but how is it possible to miss the fact my long OP and followups and most of the other posts by other posters are not about the silliness of the dirty word list?

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/sho ... tcount=167

---

I don't know why people are unwilling to admit this, but Scylla is a fucking idiot. This is just more evidence.

And his tedious fucking stories are not good. Anyone who things those things constitute good writing is also dumb.

Scylla's stupid fucking attitude, as expressed in that horrible post of his, makes me start to wonder if all the political theorists are right who have proposed that right-wing ideology is based upon a maladjusted desire to have an omnipotent authority over them. It certainly describes him to a T. What a complete fuckup he is.

---

I can think of two brilliant posts by him that really intrigued me but you are correct that the rest is usually unreadable to me. His classic Blimp story was just great to read and his Water-boarding experiment was crazy but very interesting. I do think he is smart, given that he came back and admitted he was mistaken in his categorization of my Op shows he can listen to reason when not just attacked. I know I can be annoying and infuriating at times but I try to find the positive in people and posters. I have very few exceptions.

Quote:

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Originally posted by What Exit?

I can think of two brilliant posts by him that really intrigued me but you are correct that the rest is usually unreadable to me. His classic Blimp story was just great to read and his Water-boarding experiment was crazy but very interesting. I do think he is smart, given that he came back and admitted he was mistaken in his categorization of my Op shows he can listen to reason when not just attacked. I know I can be annoying and infuriating at times but I try to find the positive in people and posters. I have very few exceptions.

---

It's not anything about his intelligence, really. I just find this one more in a long line of examples of how utterly defective his attitude is. This immediate leap to defense of any action by an authority figure, with the knee-jerk declaration that Ed wouldn't have to do this if everyone on the SDMB hadn't forced him, is just so screwed up.

I mean for God's sake. The average quilting circle is more rough and tumble than the SDMB was. It's like he's operating under the assumption that no matter what, whatever any authority figure does must be correct. It's so defective.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Excalibre

Quote:

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Originally posted by What Exit?

I can think of two brilliant posts by him that really intrigued me but you are correct that the rest is usually unreadable to me. His classic Blimp story was just great to read and his Water-boarding experiment was crazy but very interesting. I do think he is smart, given that he came back and admitted he was mistaken in his categorization of my Op shows he can listen to reason when not just attacked. I know I can be annoying and infuriating at times but I try to find the positive in people and posters. I have very few exceptions.

---

It's not anything about his intelligence, really. I just find this one more in a long line of examples of how utterly defective his attitude is. This immediate leap to defense of any action by an authority figure, with the knee-jerk declaration that Ed wouldn't have to do this if everyone on the SDMB hadn't forced him, is just so screwed up.

I mean for God's sake. The average quilting circle is more rough and tumble than the SDMB was. It's like he's operating under the assumption that no matter what, whatever any authority figure does must be correct. It's so defective.

---

Well this part I can agree with. His post still puzzles me and I do not agree with it. I rarely curse on-line. I try hard not to IRL. My friends at work that I play cards with tease me for my fudges and darns. I sure as heck don't need anyone protecting me from being cursed at or seeing curse words. To go even further and say we can use these offensive words but not towards each other just left me thoroughly confused. Either ban the words completely or not at all.

Of course this was still minor compared to Lynn baiting Sapo and trumping up the charges to suspend him and for the technical and communication problems.

Colibri's butthurt complaint made him and Ed look very foolish and it was a terrible place they put themself.

Did I mention the tech failures? The inability to make fixes to the search engine bothers me to no end.

Well, in fairness, Colibri is in Panama, and in Panama, challenging the actions of a moderator on an internet message board is traditionally regarded as sufficient cause for a knife fight.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Excalibre

It's like he's operating under the assumption that no matter what, whatever any authority figure does must be correct. It's so defective.

---

A certain kind of person thrives under an authority, and a lot of Republicans are exactly that type. I'm not saying it's automatically a character flaw (my hubby leans that way actually), but there are things about it which make me uneasy. There's a word for it by I can't recall it right now. The smarter ones know when to question it (authority).

Quote:

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Originally posted by ivan astikov

Quote:

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Originally posted by Scylla

It should be inherently obvious that some of the extreme and hateful behavior presents possible problems for Ed and whatever company happens to own this place at the moment. At times this place has had spillover into the real world. Suppose somebody kills themself because of a feud here? Suppose they kill somebody else? Suppose somebody loses a job because of something somebody says here?

Some of the particularly hateful behavior here may cross legal lines. Is it verbal assault? What if it demonstrably damages somebody?

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Has anyone actually provided a link to one of these nasty outbursts of virulent verbosity and expletives?

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It is possible that Scylla is being sarcastic of facetious or something.

Here's the thing about that:

If it's not obvious enough, you look like a combination of tool and tool.

And tool is already enough.

If you're trying to be especially clever, you dig in your heels even more when called on your particular brand of "Oh, I am SO CLEVER!"

And thus someone who tries to help you say, "Yeah, I was kind of joking" gets swatted.


Now, I have no deep interest in defending "Scylla is just joking -- trying to get Ed to see the light" -- anyone is welcome to disagree, and that'll be fine. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he is actually the SDMB's Don Quixote.

But he's either trying to be artful where artful is wasted or he's just mentally wasted.

Neither one would surprise me much. I never quite got the cult following he had, where if he wrote a sentence it was omg the best sentence ever.

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Originally posted by Liberal

I think he posts drunk or stoned sometimes.

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That's beneath you Lib.

Coming from the guy who complained (rightly) about the "Are you off your meds yet" crack that people were using against you, I expected more.

Until Ed gets that the boards are not about his "vision," nothing is going to change. The boards haven't been about Ed in some time, they have been about us. Coming in and saying that you have a "vision" of how the boards should be (and never laying out a grand overarching vision, just saying, inexplicably at times, "No, that's not what I want.") would piss any group off.

If Ed had been a part of the boards for a significant period of time, he could say that he had a "vision" for the boards, and people wouldn't get angry. If Ed had made a study of the boards and then laid out a vision which codified many things we'd all felt about what the boards should be, but had never formally put down, people would be happy. If Ed had asked Dopers what they think the boards should be, and then engaged in an open debate about those things, people would be happy.

Ed, however, has done none of that, and shows no desire to do that. Which means that he's going to (sooner or later) drive away all but the most sycophantic posters, and it'll be the dullest place on the internet. They might as well change the name at that point to The Stepford Wives Message Board.

Christ, ain't that the problem with newspapers today? They'll give you highly detailed stories about corrupt politicos on the other side of the state, but completely ignore the ones in your area. So much for the honor and nobility of the profession.

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Originally posted by SmartAleq

Well, featherlou, in my half century I've had my nose rubbed in the fact that MOST people don't see the wider implications of ANYTHING and insist on focusing on the microcosm while the macrocosm goes totally to shit in a shoulder bag. Nits abound, and nitpickers to pick them, and trying to get them up to speed with what's REALLY going on is an exercise in explaining cosmology to a coliform... Forest, trees, that sort of thing...

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In my 42 years, I've learned that my instincts are dead-on, and I usually do better when I don't ignore them. :)

(Add me to the list of people who didn't worship at the altar of Scylla. He wrote some good shit, yeah, but every word that flowed from his keyboard wasn't gold. He had some nasty tendencies, and his relationship with his wife was seriously strange.)

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Originally posted by featherlou

and his relationship with his wife was seriously strange.

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Do tell.

Besides the time his wife waterboarded him?

What Exit?

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What is wrong with Scylla. I know I am not a great writer, but how is it possible to miss the fact my long OP and followups and most of the other posts by other posters are not about the silliness of the dirty word list?

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That seems to be standard for him: ignore 99% and mock the remaining 1% as though that were your entire post. Back when I first joined, I thought he was pretty funny, but he quickly turned into a cross between Rush Limbaugh and a drunken frat boy. I washed my hands of him back when he was on his "traitors and cowards" kick during the run-up to the war.

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Originally posted by sublight

That seems to be standard for him: ignore 99% and mock the remaining 1% as though that were your entire post.

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Had to check back to make sure you were talking about Scylla and not puppykicking sonofabitch (previously known as Zotti).

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Originally posted by Excalibre

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Originally posted by featherlou

and his relationship with his wife was seriously strange.

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Do tell.

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I don't recall the details other than I think it had to do with his wife's car, but he posted about pulling a rather cruel practical joke on her, made it one of his usual mega-long stories.

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Originally posted by beebs

Besides the time his wife waterboarded him?

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It was something like that, the first time I noticed that he and his wife had a decidedly strange relationship. They had some kind of dynamic where they were actively mean to each other or something. Different strokes for different folks and all that, and I wouldn't be talking about it if he hadn't volunteered the information, but it weirded me out.

Edit on preview: I think that was it, ETF. Everyone was telling him how brilliant and funny he was, as usual, but I just said it sounded mean, and he didn't like that much.

Ye, I recall he got all indignant and defensive and insisted that he did nothing wrong and she was perfectly happy with it all. The whole thing gave me seriously bad vibes.

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Originally posted by featherlou

Edit on preview: I think that was it, ETF. Everyone was telling him how brilliant and funny he was, as usual, but I just said it sounded mean, and he didn't like that much.

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There was also the time he posted about letting his young (2 years old?) child walk on rather hot (because of the sun) asphalt or concrete because she needed to find out for herself that it was that hot.

I guess that's good parenting to some people.

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Originally posted by Fenris

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Originally posted by Liberal

I think he posts drunk or stoned sometimes.

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That's beneath you Lib.

Coming from the guy who complained (rightly) about the "Are you off your meds yet" crack that people were using against you, I expected more.

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I was relating what I recalled him saying.

OK, normally, I'm much like What Exit? in the "find something nice about everyone" and trying to be a peacekeeper habits. Keeps me fairly Pollyannaish about message board interactions. That, and I have a terribly memory for names, so you can bash my brains in with a brick in one thread and I'll squee over your kitty pics in another simultaneously.

But wasn't Scylla the guy who claims to own his daughter's vagina?

Yeah, that was creepy. I've not been able to enjoy his posts since.

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Originally posted by WhyNot

But wasn't Scylla the guy who claims to own his daughter's vagina?

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If that happened, I don't remember it, which places it either before I got there (possible) or after 2006.

Does anyone have a cite for anything remotely resembling this?

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Originally posted by iampunha

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Originally posted by WhyNot

But wasn't Scylla the guy who claims to own his daughter's vagina?

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If that happened, I don't remember it, which places it either before I got there (possible) or after 2006.

Does anyone have a cite for anything remotely resembling this?

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Yes. Scylla jumps in at post 38 with this:

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Scylla said:
I talked to him anyway, and I told him that as far as I was concerned, anything that went into my daughter's pants belonged to me, and that if he touched her again I would break off his hand and take it off with me.

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It continues to get crazy after that post, which was about a 7 year-old boy playing doctor with his 8 year-old daughter.

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Originally posted by mozg

Yes. Scylla jumps in at post 38 with this:

It continues to get crazy after that post, which was about a 7 year-old boy playing doctor with his 8 year-old daughter.

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Holy shit, what a disturbed, crazy fuck. That's a really messed up way to relate to one's family.

What is going on in the head of someone who finds it so important to be the big alpha dog boss of his family?

ETA: Oh my God, I actually clicked, and he's talking about how hot his daughter is!

What the Christ.

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Originally posted by Liberal

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Originally posted by Fenris

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Originally posted by Liberal

I think he posts drunk or stoned sometimes.

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That's beneath you Lib.

Coming from the guy who complained (rightly) about the "Are you off your meds yet" crack that people were using against you, I expected more.

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I was relating what I recalled him saying.

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For what it's worth (not much, my memory's hit the shitter now I'm 60), I remember him making at least one comment to that effect, in a recent thread.

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Originally posted by Excalibre

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Originally posted by mozg

Yes. Scylla jumps in at post 38 with this:

It continues to get crazy after that post, which was about a 7 year-old boy playing doctor with his 8 year-old daughter.

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Holy shit, what a disturbed, crazy fuck. That's a really messed up way to relate to one's family.

What is going on in the head of someone who finds it so important to be the big alpha dog boss of his family?

ETA: Oh my God, I actually clicked, and he's talking about how hot his daughter is!

What the Christ.

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Yeah it's pretty fucked up that he spends that much time thinking about how much grown men (and apparently also 7 year-old boys) must lust after his 8 year-old daughter because she's tall, blond and beautiful.

Then he goes further off the deep end and talks about how women have to be scared all the time, since no matter where they are they will never be perfectly safe because any man could over power them at any moment.

I appreciate it just as much when someone tells me how scary my life must be as I shudder in fear that every man is a potential rapist as I do when someone tells me that I can't handle being called a cunt.

Scylla and Ed: Two men that should never, ever get anywhere near my cunt.

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Originally posted by mozg

I appreciate it just as much when someone tells me how scary my life must be as I shudder in fear that every man is a potential rapist

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Heh heh heh . . . if I remember correctly, you're catsix, right?