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Thread: Linda Norgrove - Should they have tried to rescue her?

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    Administrator CatInASuit's avatar
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    Default Linda Norgrove - Should they have tried to rescue her?

    Linda Norgrove was an aid worker in Afghanistan who was killed when a rescue attempt was made by US Sepcial Forces. It looks as though she was killed by a friendly fire grenade instead of, as initially reported, a suicide vest worn by one of the captors.

    Putting aside the fact the risks and such of being an aid worker in the area, the question is, should the rescue attempt go ahead? Some sources are saying that a negotiated release was possible, but that the decision was made to go ahead anyway.

    More on the story here

    At what point, does negotiation run out and force become the answer? Should it be when all other avenues have been exhausted or should it become an option that is weighed up and taken if it is considered the best option.
    In the land of the blind, the one-arm man is king.

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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    It is always ticklish to negotiate with hostage takers. She was a non-combatant and dealing with those that take and try to trade non-combatants is usually a losing strategy in the long run that leads to greater misery. The best policy is sadly to attempt to get the hostage back without giving up anything major or to attempt rescue. Making any major concessions or exchanging enemy combatants sets a dangerous precedent.

    You need to stop the negotiations long before all other avenues are exhausted.

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    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
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    If they knew where she was, and her captors didn't know they knew, they should have paid them and once she was released, then made sure they never lived to spend it.
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

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    like Gandalf in a way Nrblex's avatar
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    I want to agree with What Exit?, but...

    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    If they knew where she was, and her captors didn't know they knew, they should have paid them and once she was released, then made sure they never lived to spend it.
    ...the action movie fan in me has to applaud this sort of thinking.

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    Administrator CatInASuit's avatar
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    What appears bad is that the latest reports say the US Special Forces decided to go it alone without assistance from British Special Forces and in what has been described as a "Gung-Ho" manner.

    There is supposedly going to be joint investigation into what went wrong, but as it appears it is being conducted by a US commander, I fully suspect there will be a full cover-up with a couple of platitudes aimed at the family and absolutely no comeback.

    I'll wait for the footage to come out on Wikileaks.
    In the land of the blind, the one-arm man is king.

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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Oh, that's awful if that's true, CIAS. From what I understand, the rates of death from friendly fire among US troops have gone through the roof, as well. I don't know what the stats are in relation to the current wars, but in the first Gulf War they'd been 52% of deaths. Drawing attention to our dismal record and admitting that this is yet another example of it would be bad, so I'm sure a cover-up will be the goal.

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    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Nrblex View post
    I want to agree with What Exit?, but...

    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov View post
    If they knew where she was, and her captors didn't know they knew, they should have paid them and once she was released, then made sure they never lived to spend it.
    ...the action movie fan in me has to applaud this sort of thinking.
    Despite how dramatic it might sound, I can't believe it was beyond the technological, logistics and physical abilities of 2 of the most powerful armed forces on the planet.
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

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    Administrator CatInASuit's avatar
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    It looks as though more detail is coming out about this then I might have expected.

    Summary of details here

    It looks as though one of the Special Forces screwed up, badly.
    In the land of the blind, the one-arm man is king.

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    A Dude Peeta Mellark's avatar
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    Ugh, yeah, I'll say.

    Sources in Kabul and London have confirmed that during the assault on the kidnappers' hideaway the hostage broke away from her captors and lay in a foetal position to avoid harm.

    The soldier from the elite Seal Team Six special forces unit failed to see Norgrove and tossed his fragmentation grenade in, which exploded next to her.

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    Mixing two SF units for a small operation is a recipe for disaster, so I can see why the US forces went in alone.If this had been pulled off, they would have been called heroes. It's dark, taking fire from a building, see someone dive behind something, training kicks in. There's always the chance of a stray round/ricochet hitting something other than the intended target. War isn't clean and happy, where only combatants get injured and this wasn't the typical friendly fire incident due to miscommunication between units.

    The US is already going out of their way to make it as transparent as possible. Petraeus is a great commander and has a lot of experience in successfully dealing with the media, unlike McChrystal. Haven't you noticed there's a lot more media coming out of Afghanistan in the past two months compared to the past few years?

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    Mixing two SF units for a small operation is a recipe for disaster, so I can see why the US forces went in alone.If this had been pulled off, they would have been called heroes. It's dark, taking fire from a building, see someone dive behind something, training kicks in. There's always the chance of a stray round/ricochet hitting something other than the intended target. War isn't clean and happy, where only combatants get injured and this wasn't the typical friendly fire incident due to miscommunication between units.

    The US is already going out of their way to make it as transparent as possible. Petraeus is a great commander and has a lot of experience in successfully dealing with the media, unlike McChrystal. Haven't you noticed there's a lot more media coming out of Afghanistan in the past two months compared to the past few years?

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    Administrator CatInASuit's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by hobbler View post
    The US is already going out of their way to make it as transparent as possible. Petraeus is a great commander and has a lot of experience in successfully dealing with the media, unlike McChrystal. Haven't you noticed there's a lot more media coming out of Afghanistan in the past two months compared to the past few years?
    I'll agree the amount of detail coming out about this case is certainly a lot more than perhaps we are used to and certainly over the last ten years, where getting any detail out was considered a bonus.

    What will be interesting is to see what punishment is handed down. For allies abroad, we only really hear about America protecting its own troops when they screw up in friendly fire instances and getting little more than a slap on the wrist. It would almost seem wrong than given that this was possibly a harder situation to be in, if the soldier in question received a harsher punishment, in the name of openness and honesty.
    In the land of the blind, the one-arm man is king.

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    A Dude Peeta Mellark's avatar
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    If the details coming out now are true, I think the soldier who didn't realize she had broken away from her captors can't be held accountable for that particular aspect of it. It was unforeseen and I imagine things were pretty chaotic. His decision to use the fragmentation grenade in a hostage situation is something that will be looked into, though. There are many other, less dangerous forms of grenades they're equipped with for just these sorts of missions. His choice of using that instead of a smoke or stun grenade cost that woman her life. Was there a good reason for using a fragmentation grenade at the time? Was he ordered to use it? Had it been a mistake? Or was he using it because the alternative was endangering the rest of his unit? I hope whatever the answer is gets taken into account and he isn't needlessly crucified to appease people.

    Had things turned out differently, yeah, they would have been called heroes, like hobbler said.

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    I'd assume it's something as simple as grabbing the wrong grenade or just hard-wired training. I seriously doubt they ran in shouting, "Let's do them all! Let's do the whole fucking village including that British bitch!"

    A harsher way to look at the mission is that it was a success. The Taliban/whoever were denied the media value of a hostage and the majority involved were killed in the attack. Given the track record of hostage takers in that region, Norgrove's long term chances of survival were non-existant.

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    I quite agree, had she come out alive, they would be heroes. This time, the hostage died and they failed. I have no doubt they went in to do the job to the best of their ability and for some reason it went wrong.

    There are still confilicting stories about how far and what the likely success of negotiation would have been, but in some ways it does send a message that if they think they can get a hostage back by force, they will do so.

    Just waiting to see what the outcome is at this point and whath lessons might be learned.
    In the land of the blind, the one-arm man is king.

  16. #16
    I've had better days, but I don't care! hatesfreedom's avatar
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    Hey we're still better than the Russians, they knowingly tossed in thermite grenades during a hostage rescue. Plus we speak the same language guys.

    US and England, bro's for life.

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