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Thread: Goddamnit, Bill Maher, stop making me take Bill Frist's side

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    Oliphaunt Baldwin's avatar
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    Default Goddamnit, Bill Maher, stop making me take Bill Frist's side

    I'm going to have to stop watching Bill Maher's show Real Time, because Maher is a fucking crackpot. He can be logical, reasonable and funny about a number of subjects, but when it gets around to healthcare, he starts spouting ridiculous and harmful bullshit.

    He doesn't believe in vaccines and has been telling people not to take the H1N1 shot. He's doesn't believe in the germ theory of disease. He thinks there's been no progress in treating cancer in the last fifty years.

    He had former Senator Bill Frist on his show the other night. There are lots of things I disagree with Frist about (and he should have given up his medical license in shame after his disgusting part in the Terri Schiavo farce), but he is an actual doctor. He tried (as others have) to explain to Maher how a vaccine works. No luck.

    It didn't help that one of his guests was Richard Belzer -- another seemingly intelligent person who has a crackpot side that makes me discount anything he says. In his case, he's a JFK conspiracy nut.

    Maher argues against things like religion and the 9/11 "Truthers" on a rationalist basis. How does that work in his head alongside his anti-vaxxer bullshit? Is there a mental firewall that prevents the rationalism from getting into that area?

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    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
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    I think it is because he knows there is something rotten under the floorboards, but he doesn't know what is making the stink yet, and this is his particular bugbear.

    I too have difficulty with believing the pharmaceutical companies are interested in keeping us too healthy, so I empathise with him a little.
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

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    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Baldwin View post
    I'm going to have to stop watching Bill Maher's show Real Time, because Maher is a fucking crackpot. He can be logical, reasonable and funny about a number of subjects, but when it gets around to healthcare, he starts spouting ridiculous and harmful bullshit.

    He doesn't believe in vaccines and has been telling people not to take the H1N1 shot. He's doesn't believe in the germ theory of disease. He thinks there's been no progress in treating cancer in the last fifty years.

    He had former Senator Bill Frist on his show the other night. There are lots of things I disagree with Frist about (and he should have given up his medical license in shame after his disgusting part in the Terri Schiavo farce), but he is an actual doctor. He tried (as others have) to explain to Maher how a vaccine works. No luck.

    It didn't help that one of his guests was Richard Belzer -- another seemingly intelligent person who has a crackpot side that makes me discount anything he says. In his case, he's a JFK conspiracy nut.

    Maher argues against things like religion and the 9/11 "Truthers" on a rationalist basis. How does that work in his head alongside his anti-vaxxer bullshit? Is there a mental firewall that prevents the rationalism from getting into that area?
    I don't know, maybe his thinking isn't that different from one to the other. Religion, 9/11 conspiracies, modern medicine...all are complicated, implausible theories that he chooses for whatever reason not to buy into. Of course, there is no proof for God, so that's pretty easy to dismiss. The real story behind 9/11 is a heck of a lot simpler and more obvious an explanation than all the truther stuff, so that's easy to dismiss as well. In both of these cases, he is choosing the more rational route based more or less on what he can personally observe.

    He may be doing the same thing with modern medicine...dismissing something out of hand that seems overly complex or implausible to him. Of course, the problem here is that the scientists are clearly right about germ theory and about vaccines, and anyone with half a brain would know that just because they personally have no training or knowledge of a complex area of science, it doesn't mean it's wrong.

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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Sarahfeena View post
    He may be doing the same thing with modern medicine...dismissing something out of hand that seems overly complex or implausible to him. Of course, the problem here is that the scientists are clearly right about germ theory and about vaccines, and anyone with half a brain would know that just because they personally have no training or knowledge of a complex area of science, it doesn't mean it's wrong.
    This sums it up pretty well. My sister is an anti-vaxxer and also doesn't believe we landed on the moon, because her grasp of science says "that doesn't make any sense," and so she goes with her ignorance rather than accepting that those with more knowledge are right.

    The funny thing is that vaccines are an incredibly simple concept. Creating them takes years and years of effort and study, but actually understanding why they help shouldn't be that hard. Your body has an immune response to viruses. If your body can fight off the virus, your immune system will remember how it did it and be better prepared next time. A vaccine is exposing your immune system to that virus in a state that will not make you sick but will make your body react. Then, your body will remember how to respond if it's ever exposed to that virus in the future.

    The anti-vaxxers are simply relying on the herd immunity at this point. The only reason they aren't constantly being exposed to viruses they haven't developed immunity for is because of all of the people around them who have had vaccines. And each new anti-vaxxer ups the risk.

    (Also, Sarah, I wanted to thank you for the suggestion of Tamiflu. I got a prescription from my doctor and while I'm still a bit run down, I've made a miraculous recovery. Huzzah for modern medicine!)

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    Oliphaunt Baldwin's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Zuul View post
    This sums it up pretty well. My sister is an anti-vaxxer and also doesn't believe we landed on the moon, because her grasp of science says "that doesn't make any sense," and so she goes with her ignorance rather than accepting that those with more knowledge are right.
    At least your sister (I presume) isn't hurting anyone else. Maher's got a weekly tv show to use as a bully pulpit, and he's also able to talk to famous medical experts and have them take the time to explain things to him. Given that, he's got no excuse for repeating bullshit like Pasteur "recanting" his life-saving discoveries on his deathbed. It's willful ignorance.

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    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Baldwin View post
    At least your sister (I presume) isn't hurting anyone else. Maher's got a weekly tv show to use as a bully pulpit, and he's also able to talk to famous medical experts and have them take the time to explain things to him. Given that, he's got no excuse for repeating bullshit like Pasteur "recanting" his life-saving discoveries on his deathbed. It's willful ignorance.
    Of course, you're right...he is being completely irresponsible. Of course, he thinks he's fighting the good fight, which to me makes him even more annoying.

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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Baldwin View post
    At least your sister (I presume) isn't hurting anyone else. Maher's got a weekly tv show to use as a bully pulpit, and he's also able to talk to famous medical experts and have them take the time to explain things to him. Given that, he's got no excuse for repeating bullshit like Pasteur "recanting" his life-saving discoveries on his deathbed. It's willful ignorance.
    True. The danger my sister puts herself, her children, and anyone she might manage to convince into is nothing compared to the millions who are being fed this dangerous idiocy.

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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    I tend to find Bill Maher as bad as the nut jobs on Faux News. Bill Maher is usually a jerk even when I agree with him. He can be entertaining at times, but he is not often a rational voice. Even his anti-religious arguments are often iffy at best. I am not religious as many of you know, but he is brutally impolite and too annoying to want on “my side”. The 9/11 truther stuff is easy. Only an functional idiot or crazy person could believe these complicated scenarios. So I do not give him much credit for anti-truther stand.




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    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    Every so often if I feel like getting my dander up, I stop by the mothering.com message boards to see what the latest quackery might be. This thread prompted me to do so, and I noticed something interesting that passed me by on previous visits. Take a look at their rules for their "Vaccinations" forum. They read:

    "On the issues of vaccinations we believe in informed consent. This means we look at both sides of the vaccine issue. However, one of our objectives, and for which members and guests come to our forum, is to bring to light the information that is not mainstream and readily available. Though Mothering does not take a pro or anti stand on vaccinations, we will not host threads on the merits of mandatory vaccine, or a purely pro vaccination view point as this is not conducive to the learning process."

    They will not host pro-vax threads because they believe that one cannot learn from them!?! It is truly shocking to me that a message board that is purportedly about education would hold such a stance, and it tells you a bit about the anti-science mind set. These folks are afraid of anything they consider "the establishment," despite the fact that the study medicine is so complex that it requires an establisment in order to synthesize any kind of learning. It's sad to me that educated people are so blind to reality because of their own fears and paranoia, and so afraid to be exposed to the truth.

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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Even more disturbing than that, take a look at what those rules don't say and, thus, imply. They only speak about not allowing one point of view. The other point of view is not limited in any way.

    So they host threads with a purely anti-vaccination viewpoint, then, but refuse to allow pro-vaccination threads. And yet they claim to believe in informed consent.

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    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    Exactly, Zuul. They want to provide a forum to hear non-mainstream viewpoints, and that's fine. But they deny that true learning comes from looking at all sides of an issue. It's sad that they are justifying their closed-mindedness by calling it open-mindedness.

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    Oliphaunt The Original An Gadaí's avatar
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    It's fascinating that a tool for information can be used so effectively to maintain ones ignorance.

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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Sarahfeena View post
    Exactly, Zuul. They want to provide a forum to hear non-mainstream viewpoints, and that's fine. But they deny that true learning comes from looking at all sides of an issue. It's sad that they are justifying their closed-mindedness by calling it open-mindedness.
    Those are what I've referred to as "fundamentalist free-thinkers" when I've run into them IRL. They pride themselves on taking some non-mainstream stance and feel that this shows they are truly independent of thought, unlike all of those sheeple out there.

    Yet, it turns out they have no idea why they've taken that stance. Their "facts" are all wrong. Their arguments don't make sense. They haven't applied any critical thought to the matter. It's as though being at odds with the mainstream viewpoint is an end in and of itself.

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    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    That's awesome, Zuul...I love that term, and you describe them perfectly. That's the thing that irks me so much is the attitude that they are right just because they don't agree with The Man.

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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    That's it, Sarah. I thought of it one day after getting in an argument with my cousins because they were complete flaming morons. What made them morons, you ask? Two things:

    1) They insisted that "the Burning Times" were an actual historical period when underground Wiccans, who have existed since man's earliest times, were being killed en masse by the establishment.

    2) About five minutes later they insisted that "Gypsies" weren't an actual ethnic group, but were people trying to latch onto a form of fantasy character and that this was the equivalent of people claiming to be fairies.

    It was one of the most horrifying experiences with ignorance I've ever had.

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    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    Oh, man, Zuul...that's truly awful.

    The thing that I always think about when I read anti-vax stuff is how the only reason these people have the attitudes they do is because vaccines have controlled or eradicated the diseases that used to kill children AND because everyone else gets vaccinated. I remember reading one thread started by a mother who was nervous because there might be other non-vaccinated kids in her kid's class. OK, so vaccinations are good enough for everyone else's kid but not yours? And you don't want him to be exposed to the supposed risks of vaccines, but you also don't want him exposed to the risks of catching diseases? How is this supposed to work, then? (I started a Pit thread on the dope about that one, as I recall.)

    I also wonder what people who have no access to vaccines, such as in 3rd-world countries, would think of these crackpots. I'm sure they'd be happy to get a hold of those vaccines.

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    Oliphaunt Taumpy's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Zuul View post
    They pride themselves on taking some non-mainstream stance and feel that this shows they are truly independent of thought
    You meant "independent in thought", right? Though, this statement is definitely more accurate.

    I see discussions similar to that message board, Sarah, in a lot of other places. I blame, at least in part, the media (not just Fox News and right wing radio, though I think they are the worst offenders) of legitimizing ridiculous ideas in the name of "covering every angle". When you frame the debate so that anti-vaxxers (ie, the nutters) are given equal weight to the sane, rational viewpoint then it's easy for people to start to doubt the facts. You have to listen to all sides, right? And I feel like this has affected the discourse about basically all issues on both sides of the political spectrum. Just look at the healthcare debate.

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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Zuul View post
    That's it, Sarah. I thought of it one day after getting in an argument with my cousins because they were complete flaming morons. What made them morons, you ask? Two things:

    1) They insisted that "the Burning Times" were an actual historical period when underground Wiccans, who have existed since man's earliest times, were being killed en masse by the establishment.

    2) About five minutes later they insisted that "Gypsies" weren't an actual ethnic group, but were people trying to latch onto a form of fantasy character and that this was the equivalent of people claiming to be fairies.

    It was one of the most horrifying experiences with ignorance I've ever had.
    Wow is that ever delusional. Though to be fair, the Gypsies here in the States are probably not very pure Romani ethnically. They are mixed like most of us here are. I would guess much more than the Europeans.

    But the Wiccan part blows my mind. Can they truly believe that Wiccan belief is anything more than a resurrected belief system made up of fragments and faerie tales? Do they think they are descendant from long secret traditions of Celtic Druids and Diana Cults?

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    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    What's really strange about these anti-science types (to me) is that they come from both the far-right and the far-left. The ones I know are lefties, but that's because the people I run into tend to be lefties. Clearly, when you read the mothering.com boards, they have both kinds. The left-right continuum seems to be more of a circle than a straight line to me...they move apart from each other, and then circle back into wingnuttery.

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    Quote Originally posted by Zuul View post
    It's as though being at odds with the mainstream viewpoint is an end in and of itself.
    That's exactly what it is. It's people grasping whatever bizarre view they think is the opposite of what The Man is pushing. A lot of people have this oppositional kind of thinking, where their identity is based on not believing whatever they're "supposed to". And a huge amount of our public discourse is based on finding ways to manipulate this mindset, because it's incredibly easy to do so. So any public figure -- Jenny McCarthy, Kevin Trudeau, Joe the Plumber, whoever -- just has to appeal to that oppositional mindset and there you go.


    1) They insisted that "the Burning Times" were an actual historical period when underground Wiccans, who have existed since man's earliest times, were being killed en masse by the establishment.
    This kind of thing has led me to feel a great degree of antipathy towards new age religion.


    Quote Originally posted by Sarahfeena
    (I started a Pit thread on the dope about that one, as I recall.)
    I recall it too, I think.

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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Taumpy View post
    You meant "independent in thought", right? Though, this statement is definitely more accurate.
    I stand by what I said.

    I see discussions similar to that message board, Sarah, in a lot of other places. I blame, at least in part, the media (not just Fox News and right wing radio, though I think they are the worst offenders) of legitimizing ridiculous ideas in the name of "covering every angle". When you frame the debate so that anti-vaxxers (ie, the nutters) are given equal weight to the sane, rational viewpoint then it's easy for people to start to doubt the facts. You have to listen to all sides, right? And I feel like this has affected the discourse about basically all issues on both sides of the political spectrum. Just look at the healthcare debate.
    I think this is certainly part of it. But, then there's this stupid little twist that gets in there that makes the whole thing even dumber. They decide since one side is overrepresented--by scientists! feh!--that they need to be really extreme about the other side to even things out.

    For example, "everybody" says that it's not possible to get enough vitamin D from sunlight alone during winter if you live north of forty degrees latitude north. Who says this? Doctors. Why are doctors saying this? Because they're getting paid off by the dairy industry and pharmaceutical companies to get people to purchase more manufactured vitamin D! The fact that they all say this just proves that it's a conspiracy started for monetary gain.

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    Oliphaunt Baldwin's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Zuul View post
    Those are what I've referred to as "fundamentalist free-thinkers" when I've run into them IRL. They pride themselves on taking some non-mainstream stance and feel that this shows they are truly independent of thought, unlike all of those sheeple out there.

    Yet, it turns out they have no idea why they've taken that stance. Their "facts" are all wrong. Their arguments don't make sense. They haven't applied any critical thought to the matter. It's as though being at odds with the mainstream viewpoint is an end in and of itself.
    Well put. Sometimes there's a good reason an idea is "mainstream". And if somebody wants to go against the mainstream, he should start by at least understanding the mainstream. Bill Maher doesn't seem able to grasp the basic principles of mainstream thinking regarding pathogenic disease and vaccination.

    It reminds me of the arguments over AGW in that people with no training in the field think they're experts. Maher interrupted Bill Frist (make that Dr. Frist, eminent heart transplant surgeon) to say that he simply didn't believe Frist's account of a patient in his hospital who died of H1N1 in spite of being young and having no other health problems. (Which would also describe an acquaintance of mine who died of H1N1 two weeks ago in California.)

    I guess when we start getting babies dying of whooping cough because of a loss of herd immunity (which has already happened in Australia) or when mumps, measles and polio make a comeback in the U.S., the antivaxxers will turn around and start demanding the government do something about it, damnit.

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    Aged Turtle Wizard Clothahump's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Baldwin View post
    I'm going to have to stop watching Bill Maher's show Real Time, because Maher is a fucking crackpot.
    That was really all that needed to be said. Maher has not been in the same zipcode with sanity or rationality for a long, long time.

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    Oliphaunt Baldwin's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Clothahump View post
    That was really all that needed to be said. Maher has not been in the same zipcode with sanity or rationality for a long, long time.
    Well, he's sane, reasonable, and right when it comes to religion, civil rights, and a lot of political issues. But a crackpot about medical matters he clearly doesn't understand.

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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Baldwin View post
    Well, he's sane, reasonable, and right when it comes to religion, civil rights, and a lot of political issues. But a crackpot about medical matters he clearly doesn't understand.
    It makes me wonder how much of the intelligence he's shown before has actually been from his own intellect and how much has simply been that he happened to be parroting intelligent people.

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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Baldwin View post
    Well, he's sane, reasonable, and right when it comes to religion, civil rights, and a lot of political issues. But a crackpot about medical matters he clearly doesn't understand.
    I can't draw to anything specific, but even his religion rants have been tinged with crazy and I am firmly anti-religious just not loudly so. Civil Rights is pretty simple and does not take much intelligence. Many of his political issues have left me going I agree with you but I wish you were not the one with the platform where people listened to you. (Reminds me of Der Trihs in many ways )

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    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Zuul View post
    It makes me wonder how much of the intelligence he's shown before has actually been from his own intellect and how much has simply been that he happened to be parroting intelligent people.
    When you think about it, how much intellectualism does it really take not to believe in god? Like I said before, it's pretty simple...no proof? OK, then it probably doesn't exist. And civil rights? As far as I know, his stance isn't really all that nuanced, either, as isn't he basically a libertarian in that regard? So he may be correct and reasonable, but it doesn't necessarily make him brilliant.

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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Indeed, Sarah. This isn't a topic that he's an idiot about and he's insightful on everything else. He's just managed to spout viewpoints that hide his idiocy before.

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    Oliphaunt Baldwin's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by What Exit? View post
    I can't draw to anything specific, but even his religion rants have been tinged with crazy and I am firmly anti-religious just not loudly so. Civil Rights is pretty simple and does not take much intelligence. Many of his political issues have left me going I agree with you but I wish you were not the one with the platform where people listened to you. (Reminds me of Der Trihs in many ways )
    I've had the same impression (both with Bill Maher and Der Trihs). His stand-up ain't that sharp, either.

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