Ask the firearms enthusiast

[Cluricaun]

I don’t claim to be a firearms expert, as this is a subject that can attract the most detail obsessed people on earth, of which I am not one, but I do consider myself to have a pretty decent working knowledge of many aspects of the firearms world. There are others out there who may know more than I do, Silenus and Scumpup both have been at it far longer than I have, so while this is my ask/tell thread I encourage anyone to jump in with good answers. So fire away with any questions you may have.

[Revs]

I'm heading out to the shooting range sometime this week. I have never fired a handgun before and just want to know what to expect. I have plenty of rifle/shotgun experience but have never had the chance to fire a handgun. I do know firearm safety and how to properly handle firearms. Hell, I had one roommate that would randomly put his dismantled Beretta 9mm on the table in front of me and start timing. The fastest I got up to was about 45 seconds.

I'll be using a Taurus 9mm or if they have anything interesting to rent I may give something else a try while I'm there.

[silenus]

Stiff wrist, loose elbow, and the open end points downrange. Use both hands. Modified Isosceles stance seems to work best for me. Wear earplugs and earmuffs.

[Revs]

Yeah I'm with you on the ear protection. I hate being deaf after 3 or 4 rounds.

[Muffin]

What's the best way to stop a charging bear at close range (meaning a bear that is charging and has gone past the point of a bluff charge)? Slug or shot, or both, and if both, in what order? (Assume little if any time to aim.)

Also, for the above problem, what type of shotgun can get a couple of shots off the fastest? (I'm in Canada here, so assume no automatic or semi-automatic weapons).

[Muffin]

Or alternately, would a .308 rifle be the way to go rather than a shotgun?

[Cluricaun]

What's the best way to stop a charging bear at close range (meaning a bear that is charging and has gone past the point of a bluff charge)? Slug or shot, or both, and if both, in what order? (Assume little if any time to aim.)

Also, for the above problem, what type of shotgun can get a couple of shots off the fastest? (I'm in Canada here, so assume no automatic or semi-automatic weapons).

There is nothing that you're going to be able to carry load into a shotgun that's going to be effective at stopping a charging bear. The name of the game is going to be energy transfer, you're going to want to put the heaviest projectile moving as fast as possible into the animal, something designed for dangerous game hunting in Africa, like a .585 Nyati or a .600 Overkill would probably be able to take most of the momentum out of a bear and most of your shoulder from it's socket.

Between your shotgun and your .308, I'd take the .308. If you're stuck with shotguns and you say you can't get a semi-auto a pump gun is going to hold more shots (I'm guessing charging bear isn't the most accuracy favoring activity) but for speed a double barrel shotgun can fire both barrels at the same time.

[Muffin]

Thanks. I poked about on teh intrawebs for dangerous game doubles. They sound ideal for when being tackled by a bear, although a bit on the heavy side (since I would normally be carrying a 30-40 pound pack).

Unfortunately, I think it might be less expensive for me to simply hire some people to come along as bear bait. Good heavens, those things are pricy!

[Cluricaun]

Thanks. I poked about on teh intrawebs for dangerous game doubles. They sound ideal for when being tackled by a bear, although a bit on the heavy side (since I would normally be carrying a 30-40 pound pack).

Unfortunately, I think it might be less expensive for me to simply hire some people to come along as bear bait. Good heavens, those things are pricy!

While pricey indeed the .600 Overkill (tied for best cartridge name ever with the .577 Tyrannosaurus) is made on a preexisting CZ550 which clocks in at a very portable 8 pounds. Here's a video of someone playing around with one. The kick looks insane, but still manageable.

If rifles and shotguns aren't your thing you could always look into the Impossibly Large Handguns world. There are plenty of Smith and Wesson .500s floating around that have short 3 or 4 inch barrels on them, like this example. Those are designed primarily as emergency bear defense weapons and would be much easier to tote around with you than a classic side by side African hunting rifle.

[Muffin]

I am no longer a guide, so I no longer qualify to carry a handgun in the woods here in Canada. Back when I guided, I never bothered to bring a gun because I only guided in black bear country. When I ventured into non-black bear territory, it was on my own ticket.

I wonder how far behind me a king kong handgun would fly if I were to fire it?

[Scumpup]

Cluricaun is a good fellow. His knowledge of firearms is quite good, especially in one so young and handsome.

[Cluricaun]

Cluricaun is a good fellow. His knowledge of firearms is quite good, especially in one so young and handsome.

Aw shucks. I'm going to have to relinquish my "Expert" title if you're going to be around.

[Feirefiz]

If rifles and shotguns aren't your thing you could always look into the Impossibly Large Handguns world. There are plenty of Smith and Wesson .500s floating around that have short 3 or 4 inch barrels on them, like this example. Those are designed primarily as emergency bear defense weapons and would be much easier to tote around with you than a classic side by side African hunting rifle.

Where do carbines firing handgun rounds fit into this? If you have a round that is barely manageable in a handgun, might firing the same thing from a carbine (that is still shorter and lighter than a normal rifle) be an option?

[Cluricaun]

Where do carbines firing handgun rounds fit into this? If you have a round that is barely manageable in a handgun, might firing the same thing from a carbine (that is still shorter and lighter than a normal rifle) be an option?

I'm not aware of a carbine chambered in .500SW, but that doesn't mean there isn't one or someone is at this minute milling out a receiver to do just that someplace in Montana or Wyoming.

Handguns offer only one real advantage ever: Size. They're small enough to stuff into a backpack or a holster. A rife, even a carbine which is just a shorter rifle, is in almost every single way imaginable a better thing to bring to a fight. The thing is most people don't know when or where or even if a fight is going to happen, so lugging around a rifle gets to be tedious.

Also, .500SW isn't barely manageable. It's totally manageable by an average sized person with experience firing handguns. It's not just a novelty, but a real actual somewhat popular handgun round. The shorter the barrel on a handgun the more it's going to kick, and while manageable .500SW isn't something you're going to go to the range and bust off 100 shots an afternoon with just for shits and giggles, true story, but it's not the equivalent of setting off a quarter stick of dynamite in your hand or anything.

[Jaglavak]

Just in case anyone is not yet sick of wading through my geek posts here is the quick & dirty on recoil.

Key concepts:
The momentum imparted to the bullet is equal to the momentum imparted to the gun.
The kinetic energy of the bullet is many times greater than the kinetic energy of the gun.

Imagine the gun suspended from wires with a remote operated trigger. When you fire, the gun experiences the same momentum change as the bullet but in the opposite direction.

m(bullet) * Delta_v(bullet) = m(gun) * Delta_v(gun)


Example:
Winchester model 1300 Defender shooting 2 3/4" loads of 00 buck.
Gun weight: 7 lb = 3.18 kg
Cartridge ballistics: 00 Buck - Hornady; 1 1/4 oz of shot at 1200 FPS.
1200 FPS = 366 m/s 1.25 oz = 0.0354 kg
m(bullet) * Delta_v(bullet) = m(gun) * Delta_v(gun)
0.0354 kg * 488 m/s = 3.18 kg * Delta_v(gun)
Delta_v(gun) = 5.43 m/s = 17.8 FPS


Comparo:
Winchester model 1300 Defender with 00 buck ................ 17.8 FPS
Winchester model 1300 Defender with 12 gauge slug ....... 16.3 FPS
S&W model 29 .44 Mag with 300 grain JHP ...................... 15.9 FPS
S&W model 329PD AirLight .44 Mag with 300 grain JHP .... 27.0 FPS

The recoil from a shotgun is somewhere between heavy and painful depending on how much padding there is. However even a lightly built person can comfortably shoot a 12 gauge from the hip, where the gun is free to move back a foot or so.

The recoil from a steel .44 Mag is considered to be heavy. The AirLight .44 Mag is just over half the weight and will be going about 40 MPH when it hits your hand. That's uncomfortable even for a beefy guy. Lightly built folks can expect pain up to the shoulder, wrist sprains, and hand bruising. It's not like getting beaten with steel bars but it doesn't tickle either.

Bottom line; recoil increases with a heavier faster bullet and a lighter gun.


For stopping grizzlies you want a bunch of big fast bullets on your side. Keep in mind a grizzly bear can run up to 35 MPH, cover 100 yards in about 7 seconds, weigh up to half a ton, and can run down and eat a horse. You might have to punch through 12 to 18 inches of gristle and bone to do any more than piss him off. In typical terrain you might have sight of him for maybe 1 to 4 seconds. If you have any warning you might get up to 4 shots on target. From a draw you might get 1 or 2 shots. Generally I'd put my money on the bear. The main reason you don't hear about a lot of attacks is because bears are smart. But I still drag a gun along just in case.

I carry an AirLight .44 Mag due to size & weight. It's light for bear but it's small and handy enough to where I will have it with me. It's the kind of gun you carry a lot and shoot a little.

If there are legal restrictions I'd recommend a semiauto rifle with a 10 round clip. This will *not* be legal for hunting, so make sure it's OK to bring along where you plan to go. And make sure you carry it so you can get to it fast. That usually means a sling on top of your backpack strap. I'd go with a semiauto if it's legal in your area due to speed and cushy recoil. The metal slide flinging backward after a shot really damps out the recoil peak. Nearly any military derived action is reliable if you clean it once in awhile. Lever action is the next best choice. Bolt action rifles are just too slow IMHO. I'd look at the .308, .30-06, 7mm Mag, or .300 WinMag. Keep ammo availability in mind. Loading your own is about as much work as brewing your own beer and most folks don't have the time or kidproof space. So avoid the fashionable boutique rounds and stick with established cartridges that you can find anywhere.

If you go with a shotgun I recommend magnum slugs from a pump action. Semiauto shotguns seem to jam a bit too often for my taste. But this is by not the best choice just because of ballistics. Remember that 12 to 18 inches of gristle you need to punch through? A shotgun won't do it. You can definitely hurt a bear with shotgun slugs but unless you hit a soft spot you might not kill him. That's bad.

You might also consider a big can of bear mace. As a last resort remember, animals can smell fear. And if it smells bad enough they won't eat you.

[Jaglavak]

Oh yeah, and I'd skip the carbine for this application. Carbines are light, handy, and easy to shoot. However they are nearly as heavy as a light rifle packing twice the punch.

[Muffin]

You might also consider a big can of bear mace. As a last resort remember, animals can smell fear. And if it smells bad enough they won't eat you.

I keep a can of it at my bedside (we have black bears wandering about, and occasionally they break in to peoples homes looking for food), and I carried a can when guiding or when I still take groups out. Although I've had countless bear sightings, regularly had bears wandering through the yard and through campsites and trails, and on one occasion bumped into a bear while running (we were going in different directions on a beaver dam, didn't see each other, and I smacked into it -- a WTF moment for both of us), I've never had to deal with a bear charge, so I've never had to use bear spray yet.

In the back of my mind, I wonder about the effectiveness of bear spray (which is essentially seasoning when you think about it) when a bear is charging. As a general deterent, the stuff works, but when it comes to stopping a charge? I don't know. I figure that at least it might get the bear to go away after the initial knockdown, which is better than nothing.

[Revs]

I've been considering buying a gun recently(if I can swing the cash), and I think I may get a Hi-Point carbine.



http://www.hipointpro.com/item/6414_...Auto_Rifl.aspx


It comes in either 9mm or .40 cal, I'm leaning towards the 9mm since the ammo is cheaper and I want something I can plink around with.

Anyone have an opinion on these? I know one guy who had one and he seemed to like it.

[Zuul]

I have no experience with them, but I'm giving it a bump so hopefully somebody else sees this.

[Cluricaun]

Sorry, didn't see this the first time around. I'll preface my response with two points: 1. If you like it, and you think it's the one for you, you're right, and 2. Always buy as much gun as you can afford. With a very few exceptions up to a point the quality of the firearm increases right along with the price.

Hi-Point has one of the worst reputations for quality and reliability of any American firearms producer. They are prone to mechanical failure, are noted as wildly inaccurate even with premium ammo, and are regarded as being better than nothing....but not by much. I personally have no experiance with the carbines, as I have plenty of experiance with the pistols, of which the carbine is nothing more than an akwardly elongated version of. If all you want it for is plinking and you just "have to have it", by all means go ahead. Honestly you'd be better served by buying a .22 rifle at that point since everything plinks about the same and the ammo is exponentially cheaper. If you're thinking about it for any utility purpose, save up a bit more and buy something that you won't end up wanting to beat with a hammer.

Pistol caliber carbines can tend towards the expensive as most of them are sold as companion pieces to the same company's pistols and it's a slightly specialized market.

The best polymer carbine on the market, IMHO, would be the Beretta CX4 Storm:



It uses the same magazines as the 92FS pistol that are very widely available (when chambered in the same caliber of course) giving you the ability to carry a pistol and a rifle that not only use the same ammo, but you then would only have to carry one reloading option between weapons. The CX4 Storm can be found around $650 if you look around enough, which while a lot more than the Hi-Point, it will last forever if treated well and will function flawlessly when properly maintained.

But really, other than as a companion to an already existing handgun, you're better off buying a rifle or a carbine in a rifle caliber if you expect true rifle performance out of it.

[ivan astikov]

Can I ask a very relevant non-firearm carrying person's question?

What is the least distance I need to put between myself and someone who pulls a handgun, assuming they are not the best of shots and I am zigzagging like a mofo'?

[Glazer]

Can I ask a very relevant non-firearm carrying person's question?

What is the least distance I need to put between myself and someone who pulls a handgun, assuming they are not the best of shots and I am zigzagging like a mofo'?

Until you have solid cover between you. Just because he's a bad shot doesn't mean that he wont "accidentally" hit you. Even small caliber rounds can travel for hundreds of yards with lethal force. Best to get behind good cover. Stone, brick, heavy timbers, or a couple of feet of earth. Otherwise keep running.

[ivan astikov]

Until you have solid cover between you. Just because he's a bad shot doesn't mean that he wont "accidentally" hit you. Even small caliber rounds can travel for hundreds of yards with lethal force. Best to get behind good cover. Stone, brick, heavy timbers, or a couple of feet of earth. Otherwise keep running.

If I really knew my firearms, would I be able to tell at a glance what kind of gun they were holding, and know how far away I would need to be to taunt them in safety, or at least begin to phone the police?

[Glazer]

If I really knew my firearms, would I be able to tell at a glance what kind of gun they were holding, and know how far away I would need to be to taunt them in safety, or at least begin to phone the police?

If you are close enough to tell what kind of gun it is, you are close enough to be shot with it. Shut your mouth and call the cops.

[ivan astikov]

Okay, point taken. One last quicky then - if you were staring down the barrel/s of a handgun or a shotgun, would you be able to tell if it was loaded?

[Glazer]

Okay, point taken. One last quicky then - if you were staring down the barrel/s of a handgun or a shotgun, would you be able to tell if it was loaded?

No. Even if you saw him take the magazine out there might be a round in the chamber. Always assume a gun is loaded.

[Spock's Sock]

In what scenario would you shoot a person?

[Jaglavak]

Approximately 0.1 seconds after it became legal to do so.

[Cluricaun]

In what scenario would you shoot a person?

As an absolute last ditch effort to save my life or the lives of those around me. And I mean absolute. This person had better have chased me to the point of exhaustion or shown that they intend to hurt me really badly and there isn't any other way of getting out of that situation because I'm locked in a bank vault. It's like asking in what scenario would you hit someone with your car or stab them with your fancy chefs knife. Things would have to be really, really bad, right? I'm sure you can imagine the same things I can.

I do not have a shooting people fetish or a violence fetish, I have a firearms hobby. I do not want people to break into my house or menace others so that I can whip out my gat and start busting shots off to demonstrate my masculinity. I don't fantasize about zombie attacks or Red Dawn or terrorists. I don't hang out with my gun friends and talk about mowing down fields of anything more than pop cans and empty shotgun shells (really, they make fantasic targets and they're everywhere at the range).

Hell, I don't even shoot at people shaped targets. I like guns because they're interesting pieces of machinery and they provide a hobby that is ultimately one of the most expandible in the world. It's rich with history and there's a part of it for damned near everyone, from a military collector, to a tinkering gear head, to a Olympic biathelete. I am aware that they are supremely useful tools for offensive and defensive purposes and if it were to come down to it I'd hope to have one handy, but self defense is way down on the list of reasons why I got into firearms and continue to be into firearms.

[Muffin]

Well said.

[Jaglavak]

As an absolute last ditch effort to save my life or the lives of those around me. And I mean absolute. This person had better have chased me to the point of exhaustion or shown that they intend to hurt me really badly and there isn't any other way of getting out of that situation because I'm locked in a bank vault. It's like asking in what scenario would you hit someone with your car or stab them with your fancy chefs knife. Things would have to be really, really bad, right? I'm sure you can imagine the same things I can.

The law allows use of deadly force only to stop a clear and immediate danger to your life or someone else's. This is one rare case where I think the law has it mostly right. Hence my answer. I wouldn't want to shoot a guy either, but if it's him or me I like to think I'd be quick about it.

[Cluricaun]

The law allows use of deadly force only to stop a clear and immediate danger to your life or someone else's. This is one rare case where I think the law has it mostly right. Hence my answer. I wouldn't want to shoot a guy either, but if it's him or me I like to think I'd be quick about it.

I get what you were saying before, but I like to avoid making statements like "The second he crosses the top stair" because there is no such thing as privacy anymore and making statements about "I'd blow a motherfucker away in a heartbeat if he came in my house" can and have been used against people in court as supposed evidence of premeditated murder. If you've already planned on how it's going down, the person you shot simply became a part of your premediated plan, didn't they?

[ivan astikov]