Carster Semenya's gender testing results

[CatInASuit]

Well, according to sources, details of the gender testing that was carried out on the world 800m winner Carster Semenya shows that she is actually a hermaphrodite.

Note, this is still alleged and an official statement has not been released. However, if this is true, it is likely she will be stripped of the medal and banned from any future female races.

She is also being kicked around like a political football by the IAAF and ASA, which cannot be good for her, and makes both sides look really poor in the way this case has been handled.

The biggest problem is lack of real precedent in this kind of case. Should she be banned from women's races, is there anything that can be done chemically to allow her to continue competing, or should she be competing in the men races?

[Taumpy]

Nitpick: the general pc preferred term these days is "intersex" rather than "hermaphrodite".

If it's true, I believe she shouldn't be stripped of her medal. It appears (see here) that she has internal male sex organs and high testosterone levels, but it's unclear whether she has ambiguous external genitalia. It's entirely possible that she doesn't due to surgeries at birth that even her parents might not be aware of. Babies born with ambiguous genitalia are far more common than most people are aware. She obviously self-identifies as a woman. And I know I'll be in the minority, but I believe that is all the requirement needed to compete as one.

[Lord Mondegreen]

This is what I posted on SDMB:

Seriously, until it's from a more reputable source than The Sun, I'll reserve judgement. I suspect they took the old news, i.e. much higher than normal testosterone for a woman (but much lower than normal for a man, which of course they didn't report) and "embelished" it a little bit.

As it happens the story was repeated in a Sydney tabloid today as well (The Daily Telegraph). I suspect they took it from The Sun since they are both sensationalist Murdoch rags.

One of the things that sent alarm bells my way was the use of the word "hermaphrodite" - it sounds to me more like a journalist's word than a medical practitioner's one.

[ivan astikov]

So Taumpy, if the nearest challenger to Usain Bolt suddenly decided he "identified" more with being female, he should be allowed to compete against the ladies?

[CatInASuit]

Well the official statement from the IAAF is as follows

Monte-Carlo - The IAAF has noted statements in recent media articles regarding the athlete Caster Semenya of South Africa.

We would like to emphasise that these should not be considered as official statements by the IAAF.

We can officially confirm that gender verification test results will be examined by a group of medical experts. NO decision on the case will be communicated until the IAAF has had the opportunity to complete this examination. We do not expect to make a final decision on this case before the next meeting of the IAAF Council which takes place in Monaco on November 20-21.

Please note that there will be no further comments from the IAAF on Caster Semenya until that time.

So, nothing from them until the end of November, probably to give them enough time to work out the legal ramifications of the results.

[Zuul]

Thanks for the update, CatInASuit.

Most medical professional wouldn't use that term, you're right, Lord Mondegreen.

Hermaphrodites are non-human animals that normally possess the ability to breed as male or female.

Most intersex people are sterile, however, and this isn't a typical part of the reproductive strategy of humanity aside. The only time a medical professional should use the term hermaphrodite in reference to a human would be to describe a "true hermaphrodite", in which a person actually exhibits gonadal tissue of both sexes. This is extremely, extremely rare and it would be highly unusual for someone to make it to adulthood without ever discovering it. Some other intersex conditions could be present that were surgically dealt with in infancy, but none of those should properly be called "hermaphroditism" except by ignorant people.

I agree with Taumpy. She identifies as a woman. Let her compete as one, regardless of what the "gender" tests show (gender is social and she already has the gender of female; they're really testing sex, a physical trait). To torture this poor girl publicly about such an intimate thing is horrific.

ivan, if someone lived as a woman, chose a new feminine name, and wanted desperately to be seen and treated as simply another woman, then yes. That person, regardless of her genetic sex, should be allowed to compete as a woman. Are there really that many cis-men out there who would fake being transsexuals in order to compete against women that we need to guard against it in such a patently offensive way?

Women have more endurance than men. Should we start testing male athletes to ensure they don't have extra estrogen?

[OneCentStamp]

Women have more endurance than men.

By what standard of measure?

[Zuul]

By what standard of measure?

I believe most of the studies have been on things like long distance running and swimming. The theories for why this is have been their smaller size, greater fat storage and differences in muscle. I'm running out the door to play taxi, but here's a quick link.

[Taumpy]

So Taumpy, if the nearest challenger to Usain Bolt suddenly decided he "identified" more with being female, he should be allowed to compete against the ladies?

Sure, assuming by identifying as female that means "he" changes "his" name and preferred pronouns to reflect her female identity, and lives that way 24/7 in her personal and professional life. (I'm not inclined to make it a strict requirement, but I can also see needing something from a therapist diagnosing her with GID) If you really think any person that truly identifies as male is going to go through all that to cheat the system out of a gold medal, then I really don't know what to say to you.

[hatesfreedom]

If she fails gender testing then yes, she should be stripped of all medals and banned from all future events. It's amazing to me how many of you want to constantly see the 'right' thing happen and that everything should end up ok from the poor embattled freaks of the world. But it's not going to happen, and it shouldn't. We have standards for these sporting events and those standards need to be kept. Sure sometimes it'll offend people, that's what rules do. You can't undergo a sex change and then start competing against a different sex, we're all sorry boohoo. You also can't have higher than average hormone levels and expect to be allowed into world class sporting events, boohooo cry me a river. It's a competition not a political event.

The biggest problem is lack of real precedent in this kind of case. Should she be banned from women's races, is there anything that can be done chemically to allow her to continue competing, or should she be competing in the men races?

no, she should be banned from all sporting events. there's no reason to make exceptions for this, or steroids, or cybernetic limbs, or whatever. they'll have to draw a line in the sand eventually.

[Lord Mondegreen]

My humble opinion is that the IAAF should declare that the events generally known as "women's" events are only to be entered by athletes with XX chromosomes and a testosterone level not exceeding a defined value. The events generally known as "men's" events are actually "open" events, open to all those who do not meet the above criteria.

Of course I may be wrong - it's been known to occur on rare occasions before. My stockbroker will be willing to provide ample evidence.

[ivan astikov]

If you really think any person that truly identifies as male is going to go through all that to cheat the system out of a gold medal, then I really don't know what to say to you.

And if you really think I implied that that might happen, I don't know what to say to you.

[Taumpy]

Out of curiosity, ivan, why did you put quotes around "identifies" in your first post?

[Zuul]

If she fails gender testing then yes, she should be stripped of all medals and banned from all future events. It's amazing to me how many of you want to constantly see the 'right' thing happen and that everything should end up ok from the poor embattled freaks of the world. But it's not going to happen, and it shouldn't. We have standards for these sporting events and those standards need to be kept. Sure sometimes it'll offend people, that's what rules do. You can't undergo a sex change and then start competing against a different sex, we're all sorry boohoo. You also can't have higher than average hormone levels and expect to be allowed into world class sporting events, boohooo cry me a river. It's a competition not a political event.

If she has higher than normal levels of testostone for a woman, that's simply based off of averages. The majority of sex differences are about averages, not hard and fast rules. I recently went to the doctor about some hormone issues of my own. Without any injections, intersex condition, or what have you my testosterone levels were way, way up there.

This is, in fact, very common among cis-women who are extremely athletic. Their bodies usually don't have much fat and this leads to anovulation. Progesterone and estrogen plummet. The body often produces extra testosterone to try to compensate. Start checking the testosterone levels on every professional female athlete out there and I sincerely doubt the majority of them will be close to the "average" for females. In fact, that's precisely what they should do. Don't compare her to the average woman: compare her to the average professional female athlete.

Hell, if a little hormone imbalance like that is all it takes to have the title "female" taken away, I've got great news for all the trans-men out there.

[OtakuLoki]

How much of high end, esp. international, sports based on exploiting those people who are at the far edges of the bell curves for physical development? This isn't a matter of someone who hid her history, or took external aids to enhance her performance, it's someone who's particular variations from the statistical norm have a specific linkage to unusual sexual development. IMNSHO, it's a difference in degree, not kind.

For that matter, I'm particularly disturbed by the way that the IAAF chose to begin testing for chemical or hormonal sex of this athlete without actually defining what the standards would be. Which implies to me that they're free to move the endposts whereever they need them to be to support the decision they'd already made.

BTW, Zuul, I can't say I'm all that impressed by a paper claiming that women have more endurance in isometric exercises. If that improved endurance were a factor in athletics, I'd expect to see women doing as well as men in marathon times, which isn't the case.

no, she should be banned from all sporting events. there's no reason to make exceptions for this, or steroids, or cybernetic limbs, or whatever. they'll have to draw a line in the sand eventually.

So what you're saying is that everyone should undergo a full physical to see that they're not too far outside the norms for sexual differentiation before they start competing, athletically.

If you can't see a difference between this case and someone deliberately using steroids or cybernetic enhancements, I don't see any point to further discussion.

[hatesfreedom]

Don't compare her to the average woman: compare her to the average professional female athlete.

Pretty much. Makes sense to me.

[hatesfreedom]

So what you're saying is that everyone should undergo a full physical to see that they're not too far outside the norms for sexual differentiation before they start competing, athletically.

If you can't see a difference between this case and someone deliberately using steroids or cybernetic enhancements, I don't see any point to further discussion.

Yah that's exactly what I'm saying, don't let the door hit you on the way out. You seem to be confused that I care whether the offense was deliberate or not, I don't.

[Zuul]

BTW, Zuul, I can't say I'm all that impressed by a paper claiming that women have more endurance in isometric exercises. If that improved endurance were a factor in athletics, I'd expect to see women doing as well as men in marathon times, which isn't the case.

It's not the only paper. As I said in my earlier post, I was running out the door and didn't have time to find more links. There are other studies and more sports doctors are noticing it now as women are approaching men's records in endurance performance much more rapidly than in strength or speed events.

But, regardless, it's not really something I wanted to argue at length. It was a throwaway comment, illustrating the fact that no one can conceive of being female as being an asset in sports. We fearfully look for hints of masculinity in our female athletes, because it's inconceivable that a normal genetic female could be as good as Carster Semenya.

[Orual]

I feel so sorry for that poor woman. What a terrible way to find out about a genetic abnormality.

[ivan astikov]

Out of curiosity, ivan, why did you put quotes around "identifies" in your first post?

Because people "identify" themselves with furry animals and characters from Star Trek, but it doesn't make them true or valid opinions.

[Zuul]

Because people "identify" themselves with furry animals and characters from Star Trek, but it doesn't make them true or valid opinions.

Let me verify this so I don't misunderstand you: you don't think transsexuality is valid?

[ivan astikov]

Let me clarify this so you don't misunderstand me; I don't know enough about the physical and mental mechanics to know for sure, but I don't think thinking you are a woman makes you one.

I'd be more inclined to believe you had a psychological problem than to believe you could just change sexuality by choice, without medical intervention.

[CatInASuit]

But, regardless, it's not really something I wanted to argue at length. It was a throwaway comment, illustrating the fact that no one can conceive of being female as being an asset in sports. We fearfully look for hints of masculinity in our female athletes, because it's inconceivable that a normal genetic female could be as good as Carster Semenya.

Actually, the problem is going to be if the medical tests shows she has two internalised testes, no ovaries and no womb. At which point, she should not be classified as a woman, but as man suffering Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS).

[Zuul]

She won't be stripped of her medal.

CatInASuit, from what I've read about AIS, I'd find that really unlikely. If she had complete insensitivity, she would actually be less effected by testosterone than other women and would in every aspect but reproduction be female.

If she had partial insensitivity, there would have been some genital ambiguity, which we've all been assured there isn't. If they'd been aware of it and had a surgery, they likely would have also removed the testes at some point, as is standard to guard against masculinization and cancer. And this would have left her with far less testosterone than other women.

The more I read, the more I think she's simply a somewhat butch female athlete who has been grossly politicized and there's nothing unusual about her physically at all.

[CatInASuit]

Well, we won't find out until November, everything else until then is speculation.

[Zuul]

True. Again, thanks for starting this thread. You managed to trick me into posting about sports.

[Taumpy]

At which point, she should not be classified as a woman, but as man suffering Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS).

So someone who discovers they're AIS as an adult, who looks externally like and presents herself as a woman, identifies as a woman, and is known to all of her friends and family as a woman is "really a man"?

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

So someone who discovers they're AIS as an adult, who looks externally like and presents herself as a woman, identifies as a woman, and is known to all of her friends and family as a woman is "really a man"?

In terms of sports classifications, sure. Testosterone is a performance enhancing drug. The reason women have their own categories in sports is because the excess testosterone men produce makes them stronger and faster. Even if for all intents and purposes, you're a woman, if you've got nuts, you should play with other people who also have them.

[Exy]

So someone who discovers they're AIS as an adult, who looks externally like and presents herself as a woman, identifies as a woman, and is known to all of her friends and family as a woman is "really a man"?

Right. The problem here is that while most people can be easily and unambiguously divided into one of the two sexes, not everyone can be. As has been pointed out, an XY person with total Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome will appear to be female (often exceptionally female-looking, even), will typically identify as female (at higher rates than "true" XX women), is more likely than an XX woman to identify as heterosexual, etc. She would have no discernible advantage in sports over regular XX women.

Semenya is almost certainly not one of these women, but it illustrates that there are weird edge cases where it would be totally irrational to insist that a person who is XY is "really" male and a person who is XX is "really" female no matter what. The embryonic processes that cause a person to develop into a male or a female are immensely complex, and a significant percentage of the population cannot be totally and unambiguously identified as one or the other.

So I guess my conclusion is that it's just not possible to identify every single person as either "male" or "female", especially not if you insist upon a "simple" or "common-sense" classification. What impact this should legitimately have on sporting events is complicated. You'll end up excluding or unfairly grouping people in nonsensical ways if you do that. I have to say, also, that excluding people because of some natural advantage seems odd to me -- after all, if other champion runners have unusual natural advantages due to facts about their anatomy or their muscle composition, no one claims they shouldn't be able to compete. In fact, at the top levels of sport probably most or all of the competitors have natural advantages that an ordinary person could never hope to match no matter how much determination and effort they put into it. Why would a slight natural excess of testosterone be different from a slight natural advantage from more efficient muscles?

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

Why would a slight natural excess of testosterone be different from a slight natural advantage from more efficient muscles?

Makes you wonder why, in our enlightened state, we even have a seperate women's division.

[Exy]

Makes you wonder why, in our enlightened state, we even have a seperate women's division.

I'm not trying to claim to be "enlightened", just to be looking at this from a rational scientific perspective. The utility in having separate divisions for men and women is obvious. The utility in trying to come up with some perfect standard for what constitutes "female" is not. I have no problem excluding male-to-female transgendered people or other folks like that, but trying to define "female" in some absolute way seems useless, given that there simply doesn't exist any natural way to clearly divide the population into "male" and "female". Our normal methods work fine in 99.5% (or whatever) of cases, but there just isn't a way to clearly determine "male" and "female" from some purely objective standpoint in those edge cases. Possibly Semenya is one of them. (Though she might well not be. Having slightly high levels of testosterone isn't that unusual -- the amount of circulating testosterone in men, at least, varies over a HUGE range, and I'm guessing it probably does in women as well. I'd be willing to bet that the average female Olympian is way higher in testosterone than the average non-athlete woman.)

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

The utility in having separate divisions for men and women is obvious.

I suppose that it isn't. Is it because self identified females look prettier when they're not wearing men's uniforms? Because we don't want them touching each other in the course of a competition? Or is it because of a biological difference in ability?
If it's because of biological differences in ability, then it makes sense to screen out a competitor who is taking advantage of those biological advantages that having testes confers.

[Exy]

then it makes sense to screen out a competitor who is taking advantage of those biological advantages that having testes confers.

Unless you're talking about a guy who tucked his dick between his legs during team photos it's quite obviously not as simple as saying "screen out the men", so I'm not sure why you keep acting as though it is.

[CRSP]

I believe most of the studies have been on things like long distance running and swimming. The theories for why this is have been their smaller size, greater fat storage and differences in muscle. I'm running out the door to play taxi, but here's a quick link.

Right, but how much of that is due to using an artificial exercise that has no utility in the real world? For instance, if women are really better at endurance exercises, then why are they consistently 10% slower than men when it comes to long distance running? This cite makes it clear that there's speculative evidence that women's hearts do not respond to endurance training in the same way that a man's heart does, and peak oxygen consumption is roughly 10% different between men and women, among other differences that favour men.

[Zuul]

Testosterone is a performance enhancing drug.

This is true, but can also make things complicated beyond just "zomg secret men!".

If a cis-gendered XY individual (that is, a "normal man") gets testicular cancer, has his testicles removed, and then proceeds to use testosterone cream for the rest of his life, is he on a performance enhancing drug when he competes in sports?

Instead of being on the regular, daily cycle of another man his testosterone cycle is controlled by how much cream he applies. He could ensure that his testosterone is at its peak--and maybe even far higher than any other man's would typically be--every time he has to compete. He has now fallen into a perfectly legal way to compete on steroids. Surely the temptation to cheat--having such complete control over his own testosterone levels--would be overpowering.

If a woman's body happens to produce more testosterone than is what is considered the normal range--and any sort of competition makes your testosterone surge regardless of sex or gender--she isn't knowingly manipulating matters for her advantage. She has no way to make that testosterone increase aside from how everyone else does it: competing against others.

I'm distressed today to see that despite the fact that the test results won't be revealed until November, all of the news outlets are treating the claim that Carster Semenya has an intersex condition as the gospel truth.

ESPN has a new story on it.

From the article:

"She's born a female, raised as a female through puberty. Whatever is found, with the exception of deliberate substance abuse, she's going to have to be allowed to compete as a female," said Dr. Myron Genel, a professor emeritus of pediatrics at Yale University who was part of a special panel of experts the IAAF convened on the subject.

Women like Semenya who are born and raised as females before the onset of puberty "should be allowed to compete in women's events, period, end of discussion," Genel said. He said there's a separate issue for people who change gender after puberty.

[ivan astikov]

Women like Semenya who are born and raised as females before the onset of puberty "should be allowed to compete in women's events, period, end of discussion," Genel said. He said there's a separate issue for people who change gender after puberty.

So, if some unscrupulous parent raised their little boy in dresses, called him Natalya and then started entering him into sports contests, he should be allowed to compete as female?

[Zuul]

So, if some unscrupulous parent raised their little boy in dresses, called him Natalya and then started entering him into sports contests, he should be allowed to compete as female?

That is clearly not what that quote says. The doctor said born female.

Parents who raise their babies born with non-ambiguous female genitalia as female and allow them to compete in sports against other females are hardly unscrupulous.

[ivan astikov]

That is clearly not what that quote says. The doctor said born female.

Parents who raise their babies born with non-ambiguous female genitalia as female and allow them to compete in sports against other females are hardly unscrupulous.

If she was born female we wouldn't be having this discussion about her.

[Zuul]

If she was born female we wouldn't be having this discussion about her.

I'm sure Dr. Genel--who has spent decades working in pediatric endocrinology, previously was the chief of pediatric endocrinology at the Children’s Clinical Research Center, and managed to secure the position of professor emeritus at Yale University--would be fascinated to hear your no doubt expert opinion on this.

[ivan astikov]

I'm sure Dr. Genel--who has spent decades working in pediatric endocrinology, previously was the chief of pediatric endocrinology at the Children’s Clinical Research Center, and managed to secure the position of professor emeritus at Yale University--would be fascinated to hear your no doubt expert opinion on this.

Decades of work in pediatric endocrinology mean nothing if he hasn't got the common sense to realise if she was "born" a woman, there would not be this hullabaloo now.

[Zuul]

Decades of work in pediatric endocrinology mean nothing if he hasn't got the common sense to realise if she was "born" a woman, there would not be this hullabaloo now.

The only argument for keeping her out of competing as a woman is based on the hormonal advantage she may or may not have. That hormonal advantage is what endocrinologists spend their careers studying.

This isn't some young, hip, liberal guy trying to cater to the LGBT crowd. This is an elderly man who built his career on studying hormones and their effects. The IAAF selected him for their panel of experts.

Whether you would consider her a woman or not is irrelevant. The question is not "we think intersex people are icky, so is she one?" The question is "does she have an unfair advantage over other women?" And an endocrinologist who was asked for his medical opinion by the IAAF, who likely had access to far more medical information than any of us, said, "No."

[Exy]

Decades of work in pediatric endocrinology mean nothing if he hasn't got the common sense to realise if she was "born" a woman, there would not be this hullabaloo now.

There is no evidence she was not "born a woman" by any standard. No one's brought any evidence to suggest her external genitalia are anything but typically female, which means that when she was born, she would have been identified as a little girl and raised that way.

[pretend my name is witty]

It's a cruel coincidence that Caster Semenya is an anagram of "Yes, a secret man"...

[Zuul]

It's a cruel coincidence that Caster Semenya is an anagram of "Yes, a secret man"...

Luckily, you forget the first R in Carster. So, in fact, her name is an anagram of, "Yes, a secret ram'n."

[pretend my name is witty]

I've not seen her name spelt with the first 'r' other than in this thread. Only seen it like how I wrote it...http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009...r-test-results.

Cruel pun still stands.

[pretend my name is witty]

Wiki agrees. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya

[Zuul]

So it does.

[Taumpy]

I'm not entirely sure if this article is accurate.

Gender Row Runner Semenya Placed On Suicide Watch

But if it's true, it's not very surprising that this is the result of making a worldwide debate out of the intimate details of someone's sex organs and the state of their gender identity.

[Zuul]

Yeah, being suicidal under those conditions would be terribly likely. Whether there's truth to her having an intersex condition or not, the question should never have been made public. This has turned one young woman's life into a worldwide freakshow.

[ivan astikov]

If it is true that "she" hasn't got a womb, are some of you going to still say "she" is a woman?