Weird take on this ivan, if she was born to outward appearances a girl and raised a girl, this whole controversy is hard to understand. Are you saying any women without a womb is not a woman? You sound like a certain character on South Park now.Originally posted by ivan astikov
For the record, there is a medical condition that can lead to an outwardly typical female child--born with two X chromosomes in fact--who will go through puberty and develop normally, yet will never get her period. Why? Because she does not have a uterus or sometimes even a complete vagina.
So even without any sort of intersex condition, you can still get women without the internal sex organs. There are also rare cases of boys born without penises.
If someone is born with outwardly female genitals, is raised as a girl, identifies as woman, and has an endocrinologist saying, "Yes, this person can compete in sports against women," I'm going to say that's a woman.
First you said that she's a woman if she was "born a woman". Which she was. Now you're changing your rules to say she has to have a uterus to be a woman? This "common sense" standard would mean the receptionist at my office stopped being a woman about a month ago because she got a hysterectomy. Does that make sense, Ivan?
Ivan, if there's some simple, common-sense, logical way to always unambiguously determine who is a man and who is a woman, why do you have to keep changing what it is? Why can't you find a standard that actually works, if such a thing exists?
Oh, come on! You are just redefining what a female is so that she can take part in a sport.
No womb = no woman, until I see a cite that can convince me otherwise.
Exy, did this person have an hysterectomy? If I decided to be operated on and given a vagina, would I be female after the op?
Last edited by ivan astikov; 15 Sep 2009 at 09:38 AM.
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If she was born a woman, she'd have had a uterus, as far as I am aware.
To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.
So having a uterus is the definition of a woman. My coworker who had a hysterectomy is no longer a woman. That's your rule.
If there is some simple, clear, unambiguous definition for "woman", why don't you share that with us, rather than this clearly stupid uterus rule?
The fact is, Ivan, each of the "rules" you're making here has been obviously and completely inadequate. You're clinging to some belief that Caster Semenya isn't a woman, despite having no evidence for it and having to invent bizarre rules to justify it. You abandoned your "born a woman" criterion, I guess because Caster Semenya pretty clearly was born a woman. Now you're using "possession of a uterus" as your criterion -- but then, Caster Semenya has one (if you don't believe it, find some evidence.) When you inevitably fail to find evidence that she doesn't have a uterus, what's your next excuse going to be to declare that she isn't actually a woman?until I see a cite that can convince me otherwise.
Actually, at this point, it is not clear whether of not she was born a woman or not.
The extra tests that are being carried out will be used to determine whether or not she fits the criteria of being "female" enough to compete in the women's events. Or whether she is actually closer to being man with the outward appearance of a woman.
A line will get drawn somewhere and she will wind up on one side or the other.
In the land of the blind, the one-arm man is king.
Lemur's post here at that other board is how I'd like to have expressed my point.
if you've got the metabolism and physique of a man, you shouldn't be allowed to compete in the women's leagues, only in the men's leagues. It might be sad to be a top woman runner, and then discover you aren't allowed to compete against women, and you'll only be a mediocre men's runner. But there are millions of men who are mediocre runners who can't compete against the top male runners. That doesn't mean they should be allowed to compete against women.
Last edited by ivan astikov; 15 Sep 2009 at 10:05 AM.
To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.
Except you keep stating pretty clearly that you've decided that Caster Semenya isn't a woman. You have no evidence that she doesn't have a uterus, and your uterus rule doesn't even make any sense anyway -- but you've used that to argue that she's actually a man? Ivan, you've clearly already made up your mind here, and you're inventing things like claiming she doesn't have a uterus to justify your claim.
Define "born a woman". No one seems to think she was born with ambiguous genitalia, or raised as a boy, or anything like that.
Actually, I'll leave that to the IAAF and more qualified people than me.
I'm not disputing what has been reported about her physique or how she was raised. But that doesn't change the fact that her outward appearance may not be representative of her, at this point in time unknown, gender.
In the land of the blind, the one-arm man is king.
Exy, IANAexpertinanything, and the only information I have is that presented by the media so far.That information leads me to believe she is not a woman by any description I am aware of; you might interpret it differently, as is your right.
You can find as many exceptions to the rule of what defines a "woman" as you want, but if she had "ambiguous genitalia" from birth, consistently beat all the other woman she ran against, and turns out not to have any child-bearing facilities when she has not yet had an hysterectomy, that's a fucking great big clue in my eyes!
Last edited by ivan astikov; 15 Sep 2009 at 10:43 AM.
To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.
What "information"? You keep making things up here, like when you imply that she doesn't have a uterus. How in the world do you imagine you have enough information to come to a decision on this? If you did have information, why would you have to make things up anyway?
You've obviously decided already, and I can't imagine why you've done so. Doesn't the fact that you're making claims about her anatomy that you can't back up sort of suggest that your decision rests on pretty shaky ground?
Go and have a google for further information if you want. Personally, I can't be arsed; I'm not that invested in the topic.According to newspaper reports in Australia, the early gender tests have proved that Caster Semenya is a hermaphrodite. The reports also claimed that South African runner Semenya has testosterone producing internal male sexual organs but does not have womb or ovaries.
The results of the tests were confirmed by the IAAF spokesman Nick Davies but he refused to give any further details. Davies said.
To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.
Hey, that's not fair. You were talking about her uterus earlier. If you think she doesn't have a uterus, you need to find some evidence of that. Otherwise you were not "led to believe" anything by "information presented in the media" like you say -- you just completely made shit up to support a conclusion you had already arrived at. If you know something about Caster Semenya's uterus, spill it.
I didn't make any shit up. There are reports like the one I just quoted that seem to indicate tests have been done indicating she has more manly attributes than female ones. I'm aware the press have been known to have got it wrong before, but if the reports bear any relation to the facts, she is not a "woman" by any normal interpretation.
If this turns out to be true, do you still think it fair she should be able to race against women?
"The reports also claimed that South African runner Semenya has testosterone producing internal male sexual organs but does not have womb or ovaries."
ps. And who said anything about keeping things "fair"?
Last edited by ivan astikov; 15 Sep 2009 at 11:04 AM.
To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.
No, you specifically said that Caster wasn't a woman, and that you have to have a uterus to be a woman. If you don't have some evidence that she doesn't have a uterus, then you did make shit up.
Again, whole cloth invention here. There's been no official determination that she's not a woman. Whatever you saw in the press did not go anywhere near claiming what you're saying here, unless you're talking about something you saw in the Daily Mail.but if the reports bear any relation to the facts, she is not a "woman" by any normal interpretation.
It's not the press I'm talking about, Ivan. It's you. You specifically said she wasn't a woman, and you invented multiple "standards" for deciding what constitutes a woman, and you had no evidence at all that she didn't meet those standards. You made claims that you can't back to support your decision -- apparently based on nothing -- that Caster Semenya isn't a woman.
Last edited by Exy; 15 Sep 2009 at 11:09 AM.
And how the fuck could I say anything like that if I have no knowledge - just like you - of the person? When I said she had no womb, it was based on the reports I had read and quite obviously couldn't have been said with any specificity or authority, but you have decided to jump all over a figure of speech, or text, and are making a big issue of it.
Now, are you going to answer this.
Last edited by ivan astikov; 15 Sep 2009 at 11:17 AM.
To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.
You set forth your uterus standard in multiple posts. If you didn't have any evidence to back the implication that Caster Semenya doesn't have a uterus then you were obviously just making things up. Since the results of whatever examinations they did on her still haven't been revealed, then you clearly couldn't have actually known enough to make the claims you made. You don't get to just make shit up and not get called on it.
Oh, and since there's no source for that line you quoted -- I googled it, it didn't come from anywhere, it was just made up, with zero attribution, on some website that is not a news organization or anything -- there's nothing to discuss.
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009...aks-begin.html
Follow the links yourself; I'm not going to hold your fucking hand, you contrary swine.
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http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/spo...-1225771672245
To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.
So an anonymous source has information from the IAAF . . . which has said it's not releasing anything until November.
Convincing!
Right, we are both faced with the same information now, do you agree?
So, do you want to go back to my bolded statement and related question, and answer based on the knowledge you have - little though it may be - prior to the announcement in November?
To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.
You spent half this thread trying to claim Semenya had had a sex change operation, and the next half making things up about what internal organs you think she has.
Do you really think I'm going to pretend you're discussing this in good faith after that?
Exy is contradicting someone and demanding they provide cites while not providing any of his own? I find that veeeeery hard to believe.
Hell is other people.
Moderator note: Dread Pirate Jimbo, please don't take (not so veiled) swipes at other posters. If you have a problem with anybody in the thread, take it to the Dome. Or you know the Pit of Rage...
Last edited by pepperlandgirl; 15 Sep 2009 at 02:20 PM.
Do you want to elaborate on the bolded part, ie. point to the post where I said that exactly.
ps. Corrected the rest of your sentence for you.
To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.
Oh come on, Ivan, don't pretend you didn't say what you did. All of your posts implied that she was transsexual, starting with your first post in the thread. Don't sit and try to pretend you didn't post what you did.
Sorry Exy, but that isn't conclusive of what you claim. You'll have to spell it out for me, I think.
To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.
So, in other words, you're not arguing in good faith. Fine. Then you're not entitled to be treated like you are arguing in good faith.
Not at all. I am waiting for you to provide a post of mine which validates the claim below. Then we can resume our discussion in good faith.
Last edited by ivan astikov; 15 Sep 2009 at 02:48 PM.
To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.
You know what? I'm sorry, Ivan. You were just responding to what Taumpy said about any athlete who "identifies" as female being counted as female. You didn't suggest that Caster Semenya was transsexual. I just leaped to conclusions. I shouldn't post when I'm annoyed about my job.
Thank you, Exy. I won't hold it against you!
To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.
I would suggest that if she is found to have been born without ovaries, that doesn't necessarily mean she is not "female". It is possible to be born without ovaries but with a uterus of some sort. It is possible to be born with ovaries and no uterus - either of which could be the case here. If she has internal organs producing testosterone, then I would suggest that she is more male than female. Her appearance is certainly "male".
I am not suggesting that women who have had their ovaries and/or uteruses removed are not female.
However, since gender exists on a continuum, rather than merely as 2 poles, it's an interesting case.
Sophmoric Existentialist
The right thing for them to do now, after also looking like ending her sporting career, is to make sure this person gets the assistance she needs to make a nice wedge out of her story. She entered sport as an escape from poverty and now "she" has another opportunity to achieve the same thing. I definitely think her 'story' deserves to be heard.
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