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Thread: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

  1. #1
    MOON GIRL FIGHTS CRIME Myrnalene's avatar
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    Default Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    I think we can all pretty much agree that picking on fat people is a dick move. I know it happens frequently in our society, and it even happens here (one of the differences between this place and the Dope, where even mentioning “fat” as a descriptor will get you roasted alive). There is a great deal of ingrained disdain for the overweight, and it pretty easily manifests itself as dehumanizing mockery and sneering contempt. If you ever find you are doing this, you should stop. It’s not cool to ridicule or humiliate fat people, and most everybody accepts that even if their foot slips once and awhile.

    But you know what else isn’t cool? Hatred of thin people.

    I am not talking the shocked and repulsed reaction one might get from seeing a person that is genuinely emaciated and unhealthy (although I would hope that reaction would be tempered by pity). I am talking about disdain aimed at normal slender people, designed to make another party (presumably larger) feel better about themselves. This can take the form of ill-worded empowerment messages - “Real Women Have Curves” may be nice for Lane Bryant shoppers to hear, but it’s actually pretty crappy to imply that ladies whose clothing sizes are in the single digits are not “real women”. Less benign than that example is the practice of describing perfectly healthy, even athletic women as being shaped like “12-year-old boys”. Even nastier is the implication, popular in high schools all over America (and unfortunately among some post-high school aged people) that a slender girl must have an eating disorder.

    Frankly – if you’re a man saying these things, you sound like a bitter loser who has turned his sexual frustration into barbs to throw at the type of woman who has turned him down. If you are a female saying this? You sound unhappy with your own body. You sound fat.

    Thin people, fat people – leave each other alone, assholes.
    everything in nature is sort of gross when you look at it too closely. what is an apple? basically the uterus of a tree - terrifel

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    Curmudgeon OtakuLoki's avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    I can get behind this rant.

    Whether one feels that the slim ideal espoused in the media these days is healthy or personally attractive, the way to express one's views is not to attack the people with that body type. It's fine to say, for example, "I prefer the zatfig look." It's uncool to start saying, "I'm tired of seeing all these bulimic women everywhere."

    Finally, to diagnose mental defects simply because one thinks someone else is thin, or too thin, is pretty shabby. Esp. the way that people with mental illness get marginalized.

  3. #3
    No Ordinary Rabbit Count Blucher's avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    I've said it before, I'll say it again: You can't make yourself taller by beating other people down. Agreed.

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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by OtakuLoki
    the slim ideal espoused in the media these days
    People talk about this but I don't see any evidence of it. Unless by "slim" you mean "healthy body weight" -- it's no surprise that people who are within the range of sizes that look best end up on the covers of magazines. There's nothing wrong with that anyway. If you're talking about women who are distinctly skinny, if anything that look is not in right now and hasn't been for a long time.

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    BELOVED BY ALL binks's avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    It's not cool to pick on the skinny bitches or the big fatties. It's really not cool to pick on anyone. I've met thin people who were equally as offended at being called skinny as an overweight person would be being called a cow. The accusations of anorexia and bulimia are just as bad as saying an obese person eats nothing but doughnuts and never leaves the couch.

    I think a lot of times people jump in with the body snarking when the real problem is simply the person's unattractive face. Like it's somehow more acceptable to criticize someones ass or waistline rather than their gaping maw.

    Maybe just keeping your mouth shut about other people is the proper answer in certain cases.

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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by binks
    Maybe just keeping your mouth shut about other people is the proper answer in certain cases.
    fatty spotted

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    BELOVED BY ALL binks's avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by Excalibur
    fatty spotted
    Dead man spotted.

  8. #8
    MOON GIRL FIGHTS CRIME Myrnalene's avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by binks
    Quote Originally posted by Excalibur
    fatty spotted
    Dead man spotted.
    Sure. It's a pretty grave insult to call someone a fatty, amirite?

    pepperlandgirl noted in chat that she took a bit of an exception to my "You sound fat" comment in the OP. I thought I would note my response to her here:

    "Well, I would rather discuss it in the thread but what I meant was - that kind of viciousness (I'm talking about "well, I could look like her but I'd have to throw up all the time") IME comes from people who are bigger than their target and unhappy about it. I don't see skinny girls bagging on other skinny girls for being skinny."
    everything in nature is sort of gross when you look at it too closely. what is an apple? basically the uterus of a tree - terrifel

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    Curmudgeon OtakuLoki's avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by Excalibur
    Quote Originally posted by OtakuLoki
    the slim ideal espoused in the media these days
    People talk about this but I don't see any evidence of it. Unless by "slim" you mean "healthy body weight" -- it's no surprise that people who are within the range of sizes that look best end up on the covers of magazines. There's nothing wrong with that anyway. If you're talking about women who are distinctly skinny, if anything that look is not in right now and hasn't been for a long time.
    I may well be behind the curve on popular culture. I was thinking of the emaciated models that had been popular a few years ago, more than anything I can think of that's really recent.

    On edit: OTOH, I think that the way that even a little extra weight at the waist is condemned by the tabloids every summer is still pretty popular. It's not unhealthy to be five, ten, or even fifteen pounds above the nominal ideal weight. And that's the sort of excess weight that is condemned there. For that matter, does anyone really think that Jessica Simpson was dangerously overweight earlier this year? And there was certainly a lot of condemnation for her look then.

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    A Football of Fate Jeff's avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Oh Myrnalene. If I told you I hated your emaciated skinny body would you hold it against me?

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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    In general I agree with you -- it's stupid and offensive to bag on someone for being "too thin" just like it's stupid and offensive to bag on someone for being ugly or fat or whatever.

    However, I'm having a hard time believing that "hatred" for thin is anywhere near as extreme or common as hatred for fat people, nor as damaging. Keep in mind that being thin is an ideal in our society, and many people who would call you "built like a boy" are actually simply saying sour grapes. If you get told you're built like a boy, it could be sour grapes, or it could be someone simply stating their preference for curvier women -- but it's rarely a statement that means "OMG you are a disgusting stick person that makes me want to barf." Whereas on the other hand, when someone gets called fat, it's frequently a statement of disgust and pretty much never sour grapes. I mean, really, what fat person can console themselves about being called fat by saying "she just wants to be this heavy and can't"? It's just not something.

    And this is sort of a side note, but since it's being taken as a given that hating on fatties is super bad, I feel I should mention it: I do happen to think some contempt for overweight people is healthy. The whole "fat acceptance" movement annoys me and I don't think we should pretend fat people are just as attractive as thin people. People should feel crappy enough about being obese that they're motivated to do something about it, in my opinion. Granted, you shouldn't just go around insulting fat people or using it as a crutch for your inability to argue on a message board, but I don't think pretending there's nothing wrong with being fat is a very good idea.

  12. #12
    Clueless but well-meaning Hatshepsut's avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by McNutty
    And this is sort of a side note, but since it's being taken as a given that hating on fatties is super bad, I feel I should mention it: I do happen to think some contempt for overweight people is healthy. The whole "fat acceptance" movement annoys me and I don't think we should pretend fat people are just as attractive as thin people. People should feel crappy enough about being obese that they're motivated to do something about it, in my opinion. Granted, you shouldn't just go around insulting fat people or using it as a crutch for your inability to argue on a message board, but I don't think pretending there's nothing wrong with being fat is a very good idea.
    I dunno, I think the "fat acceptance movement" is just an attempt to provide a little balance, given the prejudice and scorn that fat people face regularly. I seriously doubt that in American society today there is a single obese person who (a) doesn't feel crappy about it; (b) doesn't realize that the vast majority of people have an aesthetic preference for a slimmer figure; and (c) doesn't understand the health consequences. There's really no need for any outside party to remind them of anything - the mirror, parents/SOs, media and doctors are already sending all necessary messages.

    For the rest of us, our energy is probably more usefully spent being on guard against unreasonable prejudice that hurts everyone. I think there are a number of studies showing that fat people are less likely to get hired, have lower salaries, etc. Now MAYBE that's an appropriate outcome based on lower health/energy levels associated with being fat, but it seems a lot more likely that unfounded stereotyping is at work.

    The image I always think of is when two people are seated next to each other on an airplane, one an overweight not-especially-attractive woman and the other a handsome man with a perfect body weight. Knowing nothing about either one of them, people will make assumptions that the woman is a lazy slob and the man is a competent, intelligent go-getter.

    But it is perfectly possible that the woman has lost 50 pounds over the past year and is continuing her admirable progress, while the man sitting next to her is embezzling funds from his company and two-timing his pregnant wife. We really can't be sure which of the two is the morally superior simply by looking at them.

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    Oliphaunt dread pirate jimbo's avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by CairoCarol
    Quote Originally posted by McNutty
    And this is sort of a side note, but since it's being taken as a given that hating on fatties is super bad, I feel I should mention it: I do happen to think some contempt for overweight people is healthy. The whole "fat acceptance" movement annoys me and I don't think we should pretend fat people are just as attractive as thin people. People should feel crappy enough about being obese that they're motivated to do something about it, in my opinion. Granted, you shouldn't just go around insulting fat people or using it as a crutch for your inability to argue on a message board, but I don't think pretending there's nothing wrong with being fat is a very good idea.
    I dunno, I think the "fat acceptance movement" is just an attempt to provide a little balance, given the prejudice and scorn that fat people face regularly. I seriously doubt that in American society today there is a single obese person who (a) doesn't feel crappy about it; (b) doesn't realize that the vast majority of people have an aesthetic preference for a slimmer figure; and (c) doesn't understand the health consequences. There's really no need for any outside party to remind them of anything - the mirror, parents/SOs, media and doctors are already sending all necessary messages.

    For the rest of us, our energy is probably more usefully spent being on guard against unreasonable prejudice that hurts everyone. I think there are a number of studies showing that fat people are less likely to get hired, have lower salaries, etc. Now MAYBE that's an appropriate outcome based on lower health/energy levels associated with being fat, but it seems a lot more likely that unfounded stereotyping is at work.

    The image I always think of is when two people are seated next to each other on an airplane, one an overweight not-especially-attractive woman and the other a handsome man with a perfect body weight. Knowing nothing about either one of them, people will make assumptions that the woman is a lazy slob and the man is a competent, intelligent go-getter.

    But it is perfectly possible that the woman has lost 50 pounds over the past year and is continuing her admirable progress, while the man sitting next to her is embezzling funds from his company and two-timing his pregnant wife. We really can't be sure which of the two is the morally superior simply by looking at them.
    This is an excellent post. That's all I wanted to say.
    Hell is other people.

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    Curmudgeon OtakuLoki's avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by McNutty
    And this is sort of a side note, but since it's being taken as a given that hating on fatties is super bad, I feel I should mention it: I do happen to think some contempt for overweight people is healthy. The whole "fat acceptance" movement annoys me and I don't think we should pretend fat people are just as attractive as thin people. People should feel crappy enough about being obese that they're motivated to do something about it, in my opinion. Granted, you shouldn't just go around insulting fat people or using it as a crutch for your inability to argue on a message board, but I don't think pretending there's nothing wrong with being fat is a very good idea.

    No, it's not a good idea. Having said that the attitudes towards people who are merely obese are currently far too damaging, IMNSHO. I grant, part of what set my opinion on this is my own experience, and I know I have to be careful about expanding to a general case from my specific particulars. If enough people tell someone that they're fat, long enough, and cruelly enough, its far from surprising if the target of all that *ahem* encouragement ends up with the emotional belief that he or she can never fit into the rest of society. Regardless of what weight he or she might achieve.

    One of the reasons I'm so sensitive about this pathology is that I've gone through it. When I was 20, and with a BMI of about 35, I made up my mind to lose my excess weight, for a number of reasons. Unfortunately, one of the major reasons I chose was, "So I could socialize with people." I say unfortunately, because, even when I was at 5'9" 180# and a BMI of 20, I still believed I was too fat to make trying to talk to attractive women worth my time. It finally dawned on me that my self-image was set in stone and I didn't have the skill, the determination, nor the energy to change that. So, when other stresses grew in my life, self-medicating with food became irresistible again.

    In short, from a long-term POV I think that most people's attempts to point out to others that they're overweight, no matter how good their motivations*, have the potential to be even more damaging than silence.

    I don't think that fat should be beautiful, but I also don't think there's any damned reason for anyone but someone's immediate family, or their health care providers to comment on their weight, either.



    ETA: I want to add my endorsement of Cairo Carol's excellent post.



    *I want to make it clear that I am conceding the possibility of benign motives for the people who go around yelling, "Hey, lose weight, fatso!" I do not believe that is likely for even a small minority of those assholes, but it's possible. Personally, I think most people who comment about weight, esp. weight of total strangers, are simply indulging in safe sadism. YMMV, and it should be remembered that I'm not entirely sane, so my honest conclusions may be skewed by my illnesses.

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    MOON GIRL FIGHTS CRIME Myrnalene's avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by OtakuLoki
    I don't think that fat should be beautiful, but I also don't think there's any damned reason for anyone but someone's immediate family, or their health care providers to comment on their weight, either.
    This is pretty much the heart of this thread, right here. You are absolutely correct.
    everything in nature is sort of gross when you look at it too closely. what is an apple? basically the uterus of a tree - terrifel

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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by CairoCarol
    I dunno, I think the "fat acceptance movement" is just an attempt to provide a little balance, given the prejudice and scorn that fat people face regularly. I seriously doubt that in American society today there is a single obese person who (a) doesn't feel crappy about it; (b) doesn't realize that the vast majority of people have an aesthetic preference for a slimmer figure; and (c) doesn't understand the health consequences. There's really no need for any outside party to remind them of anything - the mirror, parents/SOs, media and doctors are already sending all necessary messages.
    I don't know how big and significant an issue this is, but there is definitely a movement of people (on the internet at least) working quite hard to erase all of those things. In particular, if you look up blogs by fat acceptance advocates (sorry I don't have any links handy or I would insert them here) you'll find a lot of people strenuously advocating the idea that being fat doesn't actually have negative health consequences, and encouraging people to find "fat-friendly" doctors who won't challenge fat people about the impact of their weight.

    I of course agree with everything else you say in your post, and I don't want to imbue the "fat acceptance" movement with more importance than it deserves, but there is a group of people perniciously working to convince others that being fat is not unhealthy, and even actively discouraging fat people from losing weight.

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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by Excalibur
    I of course agree with everything else you say in your post, and I don't want to imbue the "fat acceptance" movement with more importance than it deserves, but there is a group of people perniciously working to convince others that being fat is not unhealthy, and even actively discouraging fat people from losing weight.
    That is truly sad. Reminds me of the blind people that are against other blind people getting their sight back through surgery.

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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by What Exit?
    That is truly sad. Reminds me of the blind people that are against other blind people getting their sight back through surgery.
    I think you're thinking of deaf people.

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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by Excalibur
    Quote Originally posted by What Exit?
    That is truly sad. Reminds me of the blind people that are against other blind people getting their sight back through surgery.
    I think you're thinking of deaf people.
    A better example, but some blind people were against surgeries to correct for those born blind. Both seem crazy to me.

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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by What Exit?
    A better example, but some blind people were against surgeries to correct for those born blind. Both seem crazy to me.
    Oh, okay. Sorry, it's just that I had never heard of that, whereas I've heard several news stories about deaf people refusing to get cochlear implants in their children and that kind of thing.

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    Oliphaunt featherlou's avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by Excalibur
    Quote Originally posted by CairoCarol
    I dunno, I think the "fat acceptance movement" is just an attempt to provide a little balance, given the prejudice and scorn that fat people face regularly. I seriously doubt that in American society today there is a single obese person who (a) doesn't feel crappy about it; (b) doesn't realize that the vast majority of people have an aesthetic preference for a slimmer figure; and (c) doesn't understand the health consequences. There's really no need for any outside party to remind them of anything - the mirror, parents/SOs, media and doctors are already sending all necessary messages.
    I don't know how big and significant an issue this is, but there is definitely a movement of people (on the internet at least) working quite hard to erase all of those things. In particular, if you look up blogs by fat acceptance advocates (sorry I don't have any links handy or I would insert them here) you'll find a lot of people strenuously advocating the idea that being fat doesn't actually have negative health consequences, and encouraging people to find "fat-friendly" doctors who won't challenge fat people about the impact of their weight.

    I of course agree with everything else you say in your post, and I don't want to imbue the "fat acceptance" movement with more importance than it deserves, but there is a group of people perniciously working to convince others that being fat is not unhealthy, and even actively discouraging fat people from losing weight.
    I think the truth on this, like most things, is somewhere in the middle. The Fat Acceptance people aren't *completely* wrong - it is possible to be overweight and healthy as a horse. It is also tiresome to go to doctors and have every one of them tell you, "You know, you should drop some weight." Thanks, doc, I'll just magically do it now that you have pointed it out - it doesn't occupy my mind every waking hour AT ALL. Fat people know they're fat, they know they should lose weight, but they also know that they have lost weight any number of times, and it always came back (and usually brought some friends).

    This is a very complicated question, and I can understand why some fat people want to just accept themselves the way they are and quit struggling so hard for so little result. Imagine being a smoker, and you have to quit smoking, but to do so you still have to smoke one single cigarette every single day or die. Only one - no more, no less. For the rest of your life. That's the kind of frustration that fat people live with, and I don't blame some for just wanting off the roller coaster.

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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by featherlou
    I think the truth on this, like most things, is somewhere in the middle. The Fat Acceptance people aren't *completely* wrong - it is possible to be overweight and healthy as a horse.
    Yeah, as healthy as an overweight horse at elevated risk of type II diabetes and heart disease.

    I'm not in my ideal weight range myself so don't think I'm unsympathetic but the link between even a moderate degree of overweight and adverse health outcomes is clear and grows clearer by the day.

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    Oliphaunt dread pirate jimbo's avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by Excalibur
    Quote Originally posted by featherlou
    I think the truth on this, like most things, is somewhere in the middle. The Fat Acceptance people aren't *completely* wrong - it is possible to be overweight and healthy as a horse.
    Yeah, as healthy as an overweight horse at elevated risk of type II diabetes and heart disease.

    I'm not in my ideal weight range myself so don't think I'm unsympathetic but the link between even a moderate degree of overweight and adverse health outcomes is clear and grows clearer by the day.
    Cite?
    Hell is other people.

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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by CairoCarol
    I seriously doubt that in American society today there is a single obese person who (a) doesn't feel crappy about it; (b) doesn't realize that the vast majority of people have an aesthetic preference for a slimmer figure; and (c) doesn't understand the health consequences. There's really no need for any outside party to remind them of anything - the mirror, parents/SOs, media and doctors are already sending all necessary messages.
    I don't actually believe this. I think our society is really confused about this issue and delusions about one's own size are common. I've known people who were huge and thought of themselves as hot and "curvy" when they were nothing of the sort, but they continued to eat cheeseburgers, fries and dessert on a daily basis because they had no concept of healthy eating or even awareness of a problem (and yes, I have seen this happen with someone close enough that I'd know whether they worried about it at all, and in this instance, they just didn't).

    And of course, on the other hand, I've known people who have seen this happen to others, and so they're hyper-diligent about not letting it happen to themselves, and as a result they end up with a body image problem in the other direction: they're normal-sized, but they think of themselves as fat, so they stress about calories all the time. There are, of course, worse problems to have than an obsession for eating healthy, but it's not necessarily a recipe for a happy life if you take it to the extreme.

    I blame the skinny supermodel ideal for all of this, to some degree: on one hand, you've got eating disorders in people who think they have to be stick-thin to be pretty, and as a backlash, you have people passionately testifying that it's ok to be "fat" by this standard, which really means it's ok to be normal-sized. But the message that it's ok to be fat still gets through to some people who actually are unhealthily fat, and they delude themselves into thinking they're just the right size or that "big is beautiful." And then of course, as I mentioned above, there are the folks who don't necessarily think they need to be supermodel thin, but they're damned if they're going to be one of those delusional fat people, so they're constantly criticizing themselves and thinking they're fat. There are a lot of different unhealthy directions our society's obsession with weight can lead people in.

    For the rest of us, our energy is probably more usefully spent being on guard against unreasonable prejudice that hurts everyone. I think there are a number of studies showing that fat people are less likely to get hired, have lower salaries, etc. Now MAYBE that's an appropriate outcome based on lower health/energy levels associated with being fat, but it seems a lot more likely that unfounded stereotyping is at work.
    Absolutely. As usual, you've stated things in a much more level-headed way than I can. I think "contempt" was a poor choice of words on my part. I think being fat should continue to be thought of as an undesirable condition, not something that's accepted as the norm or "beautiful."

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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by Excalibur
    Quote Originally posted by featherlou
    I think the truth on this, like most things, is somewhere in the middle. The Fat Acceptance people aren't *completely* wrong - it is possible to be overweight and healthy as a horse.
    Yeah, as healthy as an overweight horse at elevated risk of type II diabetes and heart disease.

    I'm not in my ideal weight range myself so don't think I'm unsympathetic but the link between even a moderate degree of overweight and adverse health outcomes is clear and grows clearer by the day.
    I said it was possible; I didn't say it was common or likely (it may be, but I didn't say that). I also didn't specify level of overweight; I'll agree that 200 pound overweight isn't likely to be healthy; 20 pounds is more of a grey area.

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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by dread pirate jimbo
    Cite?
    This (pdf) seems like a pretty good summary of a whole lot of research, and it debunks that one metanalysis from a couple years ago that purported to show that slightly overweight people were less likely to die (it turns out that's not true if you control for smoking, which lowers weight but increases mortality, and for people who had lost weight due to serious illness.) It only really addresses heart disease and all-cause mortality, not other diseases related to overweight, but it definitely establishes that being clinically overweight is enough to increase your risk of dying young even if you are not clinically obese.


    Quote Originally posted by featherlou
    I said it was possible; I didn't say it was common or likely
    Well, that's true if you're talking about someone who has a lot of muscle mass but little fat. You can be "clinically overweight" by BMI and still have a low body fat percentage if you work out a lot, and I assume people like that are not at an increased risk of death, and I hope doctors aren't telling their muscley patients to lose weight or else. But if you are 20 pounds overweight, and that extra weight is mostly extra fat, that's pretty clearly worse than not carrying it, as the link above confirms.

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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by Excalibur
    Quote Originally posted by dread pirate jimbo
    Cite?
    This (pdf) seems like a pretty good summary of a whole lot of research, and it debunks that one metanalysis from a couple years ago that purported to show that slightly overweight people were less likely to die (it turns out that's not true if you control for smoking, which lowers weight but increases mortality, and for people who had lost weight due to serious illness.) It only really addresses heart disease and all-cause mortality, not other diseases related to overweight, but it definitely establishes that being clinically overweight is enough to increase your risk of dying young even if you are not clinically obese.
    Thanks! That has lots of juicy info in it.
    Hell is other people.

  29. #29
    אני אוהב יהודים!
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by Excalibur
    Well, that's true if you're talking about someone who has a lot of muscle mass but little fat. You can be "clinically overweight" by BMI and still have a low body fat percentage if you work out a lot, and I assume people like that are not at an increased risk of death, and I hope doctors aren't telling their muscley patients to lose weight or else. But if you are 20 pounds overweight, and that extra weight is mostly extra fat, that's pretty clearly worse than not carrying it, as the link above confirms.
    I think part of the problem is that because BMI can be flawed for some people (like athletes, I still can't believe people are using Shaq as an example of BMI problems), some people feel like it can be thrown out completely.

    Traditionally obesity has been medically defined as being 20% over your ideal body weight. So an average framed woman of 5'6" who should weigh (according to the height/weight charts) at the most 144 pounds would be medically obese at 172 pounds. People (especially in the US) have gotten so used to seeing people who are morbidly obese that if someone is clinically obese it doesn't seem "that bad" to them.

  30. #30
    Stegodon Jaglavak's avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by Myrnalene
    Body Hatred Isn’t Nice
    Hmmm. First off, I agree that anyone who gives someone a hard time over their body proportions needs a smack in the head with a rubber chicken. Second, no I don't have cites for my comments below and I don't have time right now to go dig them up.

    I have read that the most attractive people tend to the the ones who are near optimal for breeding. A survey of men around the world indicated that the most attractive ration of women's waist to hip size falls near the optimum body type for having babies. Women tend to like tall beefy handsome men with money who like children. With no other information than a snapshot, women consistently judge photos of men who like children to be more attractive than men who don't.

    No amount of feelgood psychology is going to change these things. A person who is seriously overweight is never going to be sexually attractive to the majority of the population. IMHO the goal should be to promote the idea that comments about a person's body are bad form.

  31. #31
    Stegodon Jaglavak's avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by Sleeps w/Butterflies
    Quote Originally posted by Excalibur
    I think part of the problem is that because BMI can be flawed for some people ......
    Tell me about it.

    My cousin resigned from the military during her first pregnancy. During her annual physical, the medic noted that she was outside the BMI charts and wrote her an order for a remedial weight loss program. Problem was, she was 6 months pregnant at the time.

    She actually considered it for awhile but her civilian doctor maintaned that losing that much weight could endanger her child. Her CO refused to step in and help, so she had no choice but to resign her commission. Now she's a civilian contractor doing essentially the same work at about twice the salary.

  32. #32
    Oliphaunt dread pirate jimbo's avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Reading through this thread, here are some of the perjoratives being bandied about by the posters for people who make comments about other people's weight:

    - It’s not cool to ridicule or humiliate...
    - Assholes
    - ...pretty shabby
    - You can't make yourself taller by beating other people down.
    - It's really not cool to pick on anyone...
    - ...it's stupid and offensive to bag on someone...
    - I also don't think there's any damned reason for anyone but someone's immediate family, or their health care providers to comment on their weight, either.
    - ...needs a smack in the head with a rubber chicken.
    Hypothetical situation: Person A reads this thread, agrees with the main thesis, and even contributes to the thread. A few days thereafter, Person A feels slighted in some way by a fellow poster (Person B) and comments in chat that Person B is sitting at home eating herself to 300 pounds. Do the above noted perjoratives apply to Person A and does this make Person A a hypocrite? I would be inclined to go with yes to both questions.
    Hell is other people.

  33. #33
    Oliphaunt jali's avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    A few years back, I was walking to the store and a neighbor greeted me with, "My god, you're so big I didn't know you."

    A few months later the same neighbor said at a gathering, "What's wrong. You look sick. You're too skinny." (I had lost quite a bit of weight by working ou and dieting)

    Both were hurtful, and I decided that she's just a bitch.
    They weren't singing....they were just honking.
    Glee 2009

  34. #34
    Oliphaunt dread pirate jimbo's avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by jali
    A few years back, I was walking to the store and a neighbor greeted me with, "My god, you're so big I didn't know you."

    A few months later the same neighbor said at a gathering, "What's wrong. You look sick. You're too skinny." (I had lost quite a bit of weight by working ou and dieting)

    Both were hurtful, and I decided that she's just a bitch.
    Very not cool, on both accounts.
    Hell is other people.

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by dread pirate jimbo
    Reading through this thread, here are some of the perjoratives being bandied about by the posters for people who make comments about other people's weight:

    - It’s not cool to ridicule or humiliate...
    - Assholes
    - ...pretty shabby
    - You can't make yourself taller by beating other people down.
    - It's really not cool to pick on anyone...
    - ...it's stupid and offensive to bag on someone...
    - I also don't think there's any damned reason for anyone but someone's immediate family, or their health care providers to comment on their weight, either.
    - ...needs a smack in the head with a rubber chicken.
    Hypothetical situation: Person A reads this thread, agrees with the main thesis, and even contributes to the thread. A few days thereafter, Person A feels slighted in some way by a fellow poster (Person B) and comments in chat that Person B is sitting at home eating herself to 300 pounds. Do the above noted perjoratives apply to Person A and does this make Person A a hypocrite? I would be inclined to go with yes to both questions.
    See Jimbo, since Feather likes to use the "12 year old boy" thing *a lot* when discussing people who aren't obese, I figured that I'd speak in a language she could appreciate. So, I guess that makes us BOTH assholes. Me and your wife.

  36. #36
    MOON GIRL FIGHTS CRIME Myrnalene's avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Yeah, I just want to say that featherlou is pretty much the biggest perpetrator on this board of exactly the kind of shit that I was talking about in my OP.

    For the record, I don't think what Sleeps said was cool either.

    Oh and: Resolved: hypotheticals are for pussies.
    everything in nature is sort of gross when you look at it too closely. what is an apple? basically the uterus of a tree - terrifel

  37. #37
    אני אוהב יהודים!
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by dread pirate jimbo
    Hypothetical situation: Person A reads this thread, agrees with the main thesis, and even contributes to the thread. A few days thereafter, Person A feels slighted in some way by a fellow poster (Person B) and comments in chat that Person B is sitting at home eating herself to 300 pounds. Do the above noted perjoratives apply to Person A and does this make Person A a hypocrite? I would be inclined to go with yes to both questions.
    Oh and nitpick your reading comprehension: I didn't agree with the main thesis in my contribution here, I agreed that BMI is a tough way to determine obesity in some cases and then I gave information regarding the medical definition of obesity. So, you were inaccurate.

  38. #38
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by dread pirate jimbo
    Hypothetical situation: Person A reads this thread, agrees with the main thesis, and even contributes to the thread. A few days thereafter, Person A feels slighted in some way by a fellow poster (Person B) and comments in chat that Person B is sitting at home eating herself to 300 pounds. Do the above noted perjoratives apply to Person A and does this make Person A a hypocrite? I would be inclined to go with yes to both questions.
    Hypothetically, if Person B was a major and frequent offender who had a history of insulting women for daring to have a healthy body weight, she'd certainly be a huge (literally and figuratively!) hypocrite for whining about it when someone remarked on her weight.

    Hypothetically.

  39. #39
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by McNutty
    Quote Originally posted by CairoCarol
    I seriously doubt that in American society today there is a single obese person who (a) doesn't feel crappy about it; (b) doesn't realize that the vast majority of people have an aesthetic preference for a slimmer figure; and (c) doesn't understand the health consequences. There's really no need for any outside party to remind them of anything - the mirror, parents/SOs, media and doctors are already sending all necessary messages.
    I don't actually believe this. I think our society is really confused about this issue and delusions about one's own size are common. I've known people who were huge and thought of themselves as hot and "curvy" when they were nothing of the sort, but they continued to eat cheeseburgers, fries and dessert on a daily basis because they had no concept of healthy eating or even awareness of a problem (and yes, I have seen this happen with someone close enough that I'd know whether they worried about it at all, and in this instance, they just didn't).

    "
    Disclaimer, I am overweight, so that post will be through that lens.

    First, I feel the OP, for one reason. I truly believe that those who put down skinny women are coming from a place of sour grapes. Every time. All that 'built like a 12 year old boy' shit, all I can hear is the green eyed monster a'roarin'.

    That said, I think it is a bit silly to pretend that white* women in this society that are thin are dealing with anywhere near the same kind of "persecution" that fat women are. For real. That is silly. Fat women are on some deep, depressed, painful, hurting, messed up feelings about obesity type shit for real. They are raised in a society that teaches them they are not attractive, and that shit is going to hurt badly, so when they react with some sour grapes, why not we spare them the bullshit about 'thin bashing' and just ignore their painful jealousies.(< that's not a word, huh?)

    But now, to McNutty's point; there is noooo way we can get into an area of trying to tell people that feel sexy that they shouldn't feel that way. That is crazy as hell, right? I mean, one of the most gorgeous women in the world to me is Naomi Campbell. I have no clue if she drinks hard liquor, smokes two packs a day, snorts a couple ounces daily, who knows. It has nothing to do with why I find her physically attractive. Same for a big woman. If a man likes big bodies, fleshy hips, huge bottoms; if that turns him on, he shouldn't have to consider her health anymore than a man who likes a Naomi Campbell type.

    Obesity is unhealthy, and if people want to really be on a crusade of health, then I can get behind that. I'm sure those that are on health crusades about that also are on health crusades about the aids crises, and cancer and lupus...surely they aren't hypocrites that randomly focus on fatties.

    But if people are going to start telling fat chicks that they can't feel sexy, just because most in this society don't feel that they are, that's just hairy-nutsack lickin' crazy. I have had the 'fringe' of my own culture help me to embrace all sorts of my flaws (the most interesting being my buck-gap teeth) to the point where I am genuinely into my flaws. Why should anyone begrudge me that just because they can't accept that I find myself sexy despite what they think (barring those that are truly concerned with my dental health, which I am suuurreee would be the only reason they are upset that I embrace my jacked up smile).

    Also, Carol dropped some heavy jewels in this thread. She trying to wake you cats up!

    * I emphasized white women because in my part of the black urban culture in this nation, being called skinny can very, very often have the exact same deep, depressing effect that being called fat in mainstream society can have. It is crazy.

  40. #40
    Oliphaunt dread pirate jimbo's avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    You should post more, Nzinga, Seated. This board needs more people like you around. That's a nice job right there!
    Hell is other people.

  41. #41
    Oliphaunt dread pirate jimbo's avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    And as for the Three Musketeers:

    I must admit, I'm very proud and flattered that all three of you needed to address my "hypothetical" situation. I figured I would give Sleeps With Butterflies the courtesy of not naming her specifically, since there are no doubt a couple people reading this thread who have no idea about the drama in chat on Sunday night or the follow-up drama on Monday. Apparently this approach is "for pussies," but whatever.

    I'm hearing a lot of rhetoric about how featherlou precipitated the comment to which I made reference -- I would LOVE to see where exactly it was in Monday's chat that she earned Sleeps' fat insult. Please do show that to me, so I can at least concede the always-popular-in-kindergarten "she started it" defense.

    And to you specifically, Sleeps, you disingenuous hypocrite, we both know this thread was specifically started for you, because it seems to be your personal obsession to see that thin people get every bit as much respect as fat people. You want to pretend that just because you haven't specifically stated in this one thread that you agree with the OP that that somehow absolves you of practicing what you preach?
    Quote Originally posted by Sleeps With Butterflies
    <snip>What many tend to do is to do this by way of knocking anyone who is small-ish. It's just as ignorant as the rude people who come along and make comments about people who are obese, yet for some reasons it seems to be accepted here.
    Does that look familiar? How about this:
    Quote Originally posted by Sleeps With Butterflies
    <snip>I find it rude when people go into threads about weight and get nasty about overweight people, it would just be nice if everyone would realize that it's just as rude and ignorant to belittle folks on the other end of the spectrum. I'd hope that's not too much to ask.
    Is that ringing any bells? It should, since you've been very quick to remind me of it every chance you get. Perhaps it's time you get off your high horse and stop being "rude and ignorant" yourself? At least you were big enough to admit to being an asshole.

    And Excalibur, my dear friend. You just couldn't resist the urge to drop a fat joke into your cite-free "defense" of Sleeps, could you? Stay classy, man.

    Myrnalene, you have chosen not to cross the line you've drawn for yourself regarding weight jokes and attacks in this thread. I respect that, even if I disagree with your initial comment about featherlou.
    Hell is other people.

  42. #42
    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    It's not cool to pick on anyone for something they can't change except maybe by radical surgery, but if you are mocking them for something they have control over, it is completely okay.
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by dread pirate jimbo
    And Excalibur, my dear friend. You just couldn't resist the urge to drop a fat joke into your cite-free "defense" of Sleeps, could you? Stay classy, man.
    You keep using the word "cite" in a way that makes it seem like you don't actually know what it means.

  44. #44
    Curmudgeon OtakuLoki's avatar
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    Default Schools are Safe and Caring Places

    Yah, right!

    If the facts alleged in this suit are anything like what's been described I would think that this case would be a slam dunk for the plaintiff. For that matter, if the defendant were, say, a Catholic school, the case would already be over.

    But somehow a large number of people continue to deny that many people involved in the public schools are either passive abusers or take part in the abuse themselves. Because teachers are good!

    Tell me again how teachers will be able and caring enough to guide and direct such [del:1l7pqhtj]harassment and abuse[/del:1l7pqhtj] peer pressures in safe and healthy manners again, please? I want to laugh some more.


    ETA: A couple of cites for the deleterious effects of weight-based teasing, I'm afraid neither is direct, but they do offer citations for actual studies.

    And Ivan, how the fuck are you going to tell, by looking at someone, whether he or she can control their weight without surgical means? That comment of yours really gives the impression to me that you just want to cloak your desire to hurt people in some marginally acceptable clothes. Go bugger yourself with a fireplug.

  45. #45
    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Default Re: Schools are Safe and Caring Places

    Quote Originally posted by OtakuLoki
    Yah, right!

    If the facts alleged in this suit are anything like what's been described I would think that this case would be a slam dunk for the plaintiff. For that matter, if the defendant were, say, a Catholic school, the case would already be over.

    But somehow a large number of people continue to deny that many people involved in the public schools are either passive abusers or take part in the abuse themselves. Because teachers are good!

    Tell me again how teachers will be able and caring enough to guide and direct such [del:1s6uhv4p]harassment and abuse[/del:1s6uhv4p] peer pressures in safe and healthy manners again, please? I want to laugh some more.
    It sounds like an epic failure of the adults that should have been protecting the girl .. except, I remember verbal abuse like that when I was in school*. I'm not sure this girl suffered anything unusual, she just reacted to it far worse than most. The teachers and others at the school probably did not realize that it was far worse in this girls case. Kids collectively are cruel. I think this is a well known fact of life. The article is painting the school in the worse light possible. I doubt that they did much different from millions of other cases like this one.


    * It was not aimed at me nor did I deliver it.

  46. #46
    אני אוהב יהודים!
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Jimbo, if you think that I'm going to go back through all of the chat logs to find examples for you of what your wife does, you're dumber than I thought you were, and that would be impressive after your last thread freakout.

    Give me a break, you know who you're married to so stop the nonsense. You and she both (glad to see you remember the Dope thread) like to use the words emaciated or built like a boy or any others similar bullshit to describe people who aren't fat. Lots of people in chat have seen her do it, and here is the only example you'll get from me because I specifically remember telling her that it was rude when she did it. http://www.giraffeboards.com/showpost.p ... tcount=119 Ah yes, if you're not fat you're built like a boy. Only in Featherlou's mind. Here is the snippet from chat where I told her that she shouldn't use her typical built like a boy horseshit. She actually DEFENDED her stupidity by saying that "women have curvy stomachs and stuff." Huh, I'll be damned. All this time I thought my vagina made me a woman. When I countered and told her AGAIN that I haven't been accused of being preggers she suggested that maybe I'm not wearing the right clothes. Oh I know, she used a smilie! That means she's kidding! Nope, I've seen this shit from her too many times.


    Zuul Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:14 pm MY PAIN YOU HAVE EXPOSED IT

    Sleeps w/Butterflies Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:14 pm even in hardly any clothes!

    Zuul Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:14 pm I have been mistaken for a teenage boy multiple times. Never mistaken for pregnant. ;_;

    featherlou Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:14 pm Maybe you're not wearing the right clothes.

    Sleeps w/Butterflies Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:14 pm I'm not built like a boy and yet I've never been accused of being preggers

    featherlou Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:14 pm Well, woman have curvy stomachs and stuff.

    Sleeps w/Butterflies Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:13 pm oh featherie, how disappointing that you used "built like a boy" at giraffe

    Normally I wouldn't have made the comment I did yesterday while you or Featherlou sat and read chat (although I wasn't hiding it just because you guys weren't there, I'd have said it right to her had she been because let's face it, of course you guys were reading). The reason why I did is because when it comes to Featherlou and me, the gloves are off. I have taken pokes after poke from her since I first came to chat all in the name of her "funnin" assuming that she just kidding around. Over time it became very clear that she wasn't. Oh she says she is, but it happens too frequently and with a little too much glee for her to not mean anything by it. Just like her fun game of posting a picture of some blonde (reading a textbook upside down for just ONE example) and saying "Look it's Sleeps studying!" How would she like it if I posted a picture of some morbidly obese woman eating and say "Look, it's Featherlou eating!" Something tells me that she wouldn't think it was funnin anymore.

    So, because Featherlou loves to take cheap shots about people I will respond to her in kind. Every.single.time. If she makes those comments because of some chip she has on her shoulder that is not my problem and I don't care. Like I told you in the earlier comment, I will communicate with her in a language she understands. Since she loves personal responsibility (snerk) she can own HER comments. I own mine. And no, I'm not going to play the "Cite!?" game wiht you and provide you with multipe instances. If she has any scrap of honesty in her, she'll admit what she does. If not, your problem. Plenty of people (and yes, besides Myrna and Exy) have seen her do it in chat.

    As for you thinking Myrna made this thread for me? Get the fuck over yourself. I've never needed anyone to speak for me. I think your wife and her comments had more to do with the making of this thread than I do.

    Also, how cute that you seem put off by Exy and Myrna responding here regarding your comment to me. You can lay Captain Save-a-ho for your wife but they can't make comments to you? That's rich.

    In closing, fuck off.

  47. #47
    MOON GIRL FIGHTS CRIME Myrnalene's avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by dread pirate jimbo
    And to you specifically, Sleeps, you disingenuous hypocrite, we both know this thread was specifically started for you, because it seems to be your personal obsession to see that thin people get every bit as much respect as fat people. You want to pretend that just because you haven't specifically stated in this one thread that you agree with the OP that that somehow absolves you of practicing what you preach?
    Bolding mine.

    Excuse me? Please don't try to crawl into my head, you are not welcome there. Who do you think you are to say why I do anything?

    This thread was inspired by several conversations with many people, in chat, on these boards and off these boards. It was most recently inspired by a comment Exy made in the women & violence rant, but it's something that has been on my mind for awhile. Fuck you sideways for telling Sleeps it is about her, I was not even thinking about her when I wrote the OP. I was, however, thinking of your wife, along with other people.

    While you are calling Sleeps out on her hypocriscy, why don't you call your wife out on the nasty, jealous shrewish things she has said?

    Fom here here (addressed to an Op who's sister was insulted for being "fat":

    Welcome to being a woman who isn't built like a boy, OP's sister.)
    And here are the comments she made the other night in chat about a well-endowed woman that Glazer posted a picture of:
    featherlou Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:24 am "I traded my brain in for these." \

    Sleeps w/Butterflies Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:24 am no one could say she looks like a 12 year old boy
    featherlou Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:24 am Well, I could. Not a very well-adjusted one, though.

    featherlou Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:25 am And no brain.
    Hey featherlou - insulting women who are prettier than you are won't make you any more attractive. And jimbo, honestly - she can dish this shit out just fine, let her take it.
    everything in nature is sort of gross when you look at it too closely. what is an apple? basically the uterus of a tree - terrifel

  48. #48
    Curmudgeon OtakuLoki's avatar
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    Default Re: Schools are Safe and Caring Places

    Quote Originally posted by What Exit?
    It sounds like an epic failure of the adults that should have been protecting the girl .. except, I remember verbal abuse like that when I was in school*. I'm not sure this girl suffered anything unusual, she just reacted to it far worse than most. The teachers and others at the school probably did not realize that it was far worse in this girls case. Kids collectively are cruel. I think this is a well known fact of life. The article is painting the school in the worse light possible. I doubt that they did much different from millions of other cases like this one.
    I don't disagree with anything you've said here.

    However, I think it's a legitimate question to ask: How many of those other millions of cases had similarly disasterous effects on the students in question? I think it's fair to suggest that this girl's family has access to resources beyond the majority: She's getting the lawsuit, and I doubt, strongly, it's a case of the lawyer taking payment upon settlement - the odds of a settlement are too fucking low. She's also now in a private school, which usually indicates some resources beyond the minimum.

    Finally, the claim that the teachers/administration didn't know how bad things were for this girl is not an acceptable excuse - it seems the most prominent time for the harassment was during the lunch period, in the fucking cafeteria. If that's not supposed to be a monitored space and time, let's just give up claiming schools are safe, and admit the hyenas own the place.

  49. #49
    Oliphaunt dread pirate jimbo's avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    So the ladies are opting for the "She started it" defense. Good to know. I guess a person can justify pretty much any manner of assholish behaviour to themselves, including behaviour they have specifically and repeatedly villified, just so long as someone else started it. I will keep that in mind for the future...
    Hell is other people.

  50. #50
    MOON GIRL FIGHTS CRIME Myrnalene's avatar
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    Default Re: Resolved – Body Hatred Isn’t Nice

    Quote Originally posted by dread pirate jimbo
    So the ladies are opting for the "She started it" defense. Good to know. I guess a person can justify pretty much any manner of assholish behaviour to themselves, including behaviour they have specifically and repeatedly villified, just so long as someone else started it. I will keep that in mind for the future...
    Sleeps took responsibility for her bitchy behavior but for all your whiteknighting you won't even comment on lou's.

    Ok!
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