Why have the wizards from Harry Potter never conquered the Muggle world?

[AllWalker]

Seriously. WTF is up with that?

One of the nastier aspects of [del:1187h8r9]Lord Voldemort[/del:1187h8r9] You-Know-Who was that he wanted to rule over both the wizards and Muggles. But surely he can't be the first, and surely the others can't have all failed.

Consider: the best reason I can see for the entire wizarding community to keep their existence concealed, when it would be much easier for them to be able to use magic whenever they felt like it, was if there was a balance of power - if they were afraid the Muggles would rise up and kill them or something. But no such balance exists - wizards would totally pwn Muggles. Even if they were restricted to using just memory modification, stupefy and steel-capped boots the war would be difficult. Throw in an Unplottable missile silo or something and you are there.

Now, I know an explanation has been offered for this - the Muggles would demand magical solutions to all their problems if they knew about the wizards. But so what? Wizards would not be friends with Muggles, they would rule over them as superior beings. Maybe not at first, but unless science works out how to duplicate or counter magic, wizards would be the ruling elite of the whole world within a generation.

Is that what they are trying to prevent - the inevitable creation of 2 classes, those who are magic-capable and those who are not? Is so, the altruism of both the Ministry of Magic and the wizarding communities at large should be commended.

Of course, an intermingling of cultures would help the wizards too. If 2 wizards are to duel, each with a wand, the stronger wizard will win, unless some weird thing happens like the wands start having angry sex and Harry can see his parents again. But not if the weaker wizard has a sniper waiting in ambush. There are probably bullet-repelling charms, but do they always work under all circumstances? Could the rival wizard weaken the charm, perhaps?

If guns can kill wizards, they need our technology. If they can't, then that just strengthens the case of magical superiority.

[Exy]

Is that what they are trying to prevent - the inevitable creation of 2 classes, those who are magic-capable and those who are not? Is so, the altruism of both the Ministry of Magic and the wizarding communities at large should be commended.

Well, from what we've seen in the stories, this seems to be the key thing. So far at least, the Wizards appear to have succeeded at policing themselves by taking out folks like Voldemort; the fact that I may be easily able to kill babies doesn't mean I'm going to get very far if I head to the local maternity ward and start kicking them into walls -- as long as most of my peers don't want me mass-slaughtering newborns I won't be able to.

But there's some other things to remember. One is that, as far as we've seen, magic doesn't make for particularly powerful weapons -- undoubtedly, if Wizards wanted, they could learn to make magical grenades or things of that ilk, but I haven't seen anything to make me think that magic is a more efficient killer than muggle weapons. Avada Kedavra is a good deal less effective than a machine gun (and we haven't seen any sign that magic would protect a wizard from gunfire or explosives, either.) The ability to infiltrate and stupefy/obliviate/etc. would obviously be a big advantage for Wizards if they wanted to take down muggle society from the inside, or even set themselves up as a shadow government by subjecting government officials to the Imperius curse. We don't even know they haven't in other countries.

But given the enormous numerical disadvantage Wizards have, it's not obvious to me they'd manage to survive out-and-out warfare at all. (Do the math: there's almost surely less than 500 students at Hogwarts, and that one school appears to serve the whole of the UK and Ireland, meaning the Wizarding population is very, very small.) That means that no matter what, they'd want to avoid discovery -- in which case, what exactly is the benefit to Wizards of secretly running operations? There doesn't appear to be all that much scarcity in the Wizarding world, and in the rare cases they have some need to influence muggle governance in order to protect Wizarding society in some way, at least in the UK they have channels to do that as we've seen.

[OneCentStamp]

I think you could almost as easily ask the opposite question: why didn't ten Muggles with martial arts training and automatic weapons wipe out the Death Eaters?

[AllWalker]

The numerical difference is significant, but Muggles can't even see things like the Knight's Bus. And that is hardly advanced magic - a couple of Sickles will get you across the country, with a hot chocolate thrown in. Imagine a magical, sentient, undetectable tank.

There is also a difference in firepower as mentioned. A machine gun will kill more people than Avada Kedavra, and probably wont care if your mother died to protect you. But two things - firstly, as mentioned, an invisible, teleporting bus loaded with aurors could probably do incredible damage to even the wizard world. Muggles would struggle. And secondly, if somehow a major war were to break out between the two worlds, I'm sure we'd see a lot of new military applications for magic. Depleted pheonix blood shells and broomsticks with, dare I say it, magic missiles. Or a machine gun - Avada Kadavra Levis, or something (where's Vox when you need him?)

The societal pressure to keep the secret would be strong, but the difference between that and kicking babies is that not being allowed to Apparate or even carry wands in Muggle public is that I am not greatly inconvenienced by my inability to commit infanticide.

[Harlequin]

I think you could almost as easily ask the opposite question: why didn't ten Muggles with martial arts training and automatic weapons wipe out the Death Eaters?

Because the muggles don't know they exist.

I think one of the keys is that the wizards who would want to take over - like Voldemort, Lucius Malfoy and most of the Blacks - are also the fiercest wizard-supremacist traditionalists. They're not going to use a missile silo, they're going to use magic. And for real, Harry Potter magic is rather inefficient in combat. Give me a Colt 45 and I can be all up in Voldemort's business.

The real question is why Harry didn't go out, put a hex on a gunshop owner and walk out with enough firepower to shove every single Death Eater through death's door. He's got no prejudice to stop him and having grown up among the muggles he is well aware what a gun is.

[AllWalker]

The real question is why Harry didn't go out, put a hex on a gunshop owner and walk out with enough firepower to shove every single Death Eater through death's door. He's got no prejudice to stop him and having grown up among the muggles he is well aware what a gun is.

That's part of the advantage for wizards - enough of them grew up with Muggles that they are fluent in both the uses of magic and technology, but the reverse can't be said to be true. There are spells that stop electronic devices from working, but the rest might just be fair game. And if not, then there has to be some way to make technology fair game.

Consider: a Muggle flamethrower would be useless against a wizard. Harry was writing as essay on the history of magic in which it said that during the age of witch-burnery, a Flame Freezing Charm is a simple piece of magic. So any wizard could turn a flame thrower into something which makes them feel tingly. And yet, that is just for regular fire - enchanted fire shows up more than once in the series, both in and out of combat. I assume that this fire can't be "frozen". So maybe they could enchant a flamethrower to spew dragon flames or something.

Part of me thinks there might be a cultural bias in the wizarding world against using technology - after all, the Daily Prophet once refers to a gun as a "metal wand Muggles use to kill each other". But they drive cars and buses, which are clearly modelled on technology. And Muggle Studies as a subject? Clearly a number of wizards are intrigued be technology and the way the Muggle world works, even if only the Muggle born seem to understand it.

[Orual]

Because J.K. Rowling is not a particularly good writer, especially when it comes to thinking things through.

[Harlequin]

But they drive cars and buses, which are clearly modelled on technology.

Yes, and they have the moving photographs and all the other things that are magical versions of fairly recent muggle inventions. Some wizards must be following the muggle world somewhat closely, and the wizards must in general be an unimaginative bunch.

[Exy]

Because J.K. Rowling is not a particularly good writer, especially when it comes to thinking things through.

Great post, thanks.

[AllWalker]

Wizards are arseholes

[ivan astikov]

Because J.K. Rowling is not a particularly good writer, especially when it comes to thinking things through.

Great post, thanks.

Succinct and to the point. I liked it.

[Zaffri Pieleg]

If wizards conquered Muggles, they would either have to (a) govern them, or (b) assimilate them. Wizards don't seem to have been particularly good at governing muggle affairs, and there are many wizard separatists who want no part of muggles. So in general, wizards are generally content to avoid muggles except when stealing their hot teenagers to go to "wizard school".

[Baldwin]

Wizards are arseholes

Great strip; something I wondered about. (Note: the title actually uses the euphemism "ass" rather than the more offensive "arse".)

[Baldwin]

Because J.K. Rowling is not a particularly good writer, especially when it comes to thinking things through.

Well, she's good at some things and not others. She's created a vivid, interesting world, but not one that stands up to any kind of logical questioning.

[vison]

Because J.K. Rowling is not a particularly good writer, especially when it comes to thinking things through.

Well, she's good at some things and not others. She's created a vivid, interesting world, but not one that stands up to any kind of logical questioning.

Isn't that, like, the point? You either buy into the fantasy or you don't. I mostly can't, in the case of Harry Potter, since I read only the first one and find the movies rather silly. OTOH, I read LOTR with perfect faith in its truth while I'm reading it.

If the story has internal logic, we can accept it. If we are determined to drag it out of its created world, we are going to make a big fat mess.

[Baldwin]

Because J.K. Rowling is not a particularly good writer, especially when it comes to thinking things through.

Well, she's good at some things and not others. She's created a vivid, interesting world, but not one that stands up to any kind of logical questioning.

Isn't that, like, the point? You either buy into the fantasy or you don't. I mostly can't, in the case of Harry Potter, since I read only the first one and find the movies rather silly. OTOH, I read LOTR with perfect faith in its truth while I'm reading it.

If the story has internal logic, we can accept it. If we are determined to drag it out of its created world, we are going to make a big fat mess.

It doesn't have great internal logic. That's hard to maintain when you've introduced so many different elements. And, obviously, it's silly.

[Harlequin]

I could suspend disbelief and invoke Bellisario's Maxim throughout the series, with one exception: the time travel. The wizards have access to reliable time travel, apparently not too rare as it is handed out to bright third-year students who want to take more classes than the schedule allows, but when the Dark Lord tries to wipe them out wholesale it doesn't occur to them to give it a try? You know, have a squadron of Aurors where they know Voldemort is going to be, that sort of thing.

[AllWalker]

I could suspend disbelief and invoke Bellisario's Maxim throughout the series, with one exception: the time travel. The wizards have access to reliable time travel, apparently not too rare as it is handed out to bright third-year students who want to take more classes than the schedule allows, but when the Dark Lord tries to wipe them out wholesale it doesn't occur to them to give it a try? You know, have a squadron of Aurors where they know Voldemort is going to be, that sort of thing.

I always assumed that time travel, as well as the luck potions, could be countered by really simple magic, making them useful tools but worthless weapons.

[Inner Stickler]

The implication I got was that the time turners were guarded pretty heavily by the ministry and Voldemort did not gain access until after they had all been destroyed in the battle there in OOTP.

[Harlequin]

The implication I got was that the time turners were guarded pretty heavily by the ministry and Voldemort did not gain access until after they had all been destroyed in the battle there in OOTP.

I'm not saying Voldemort should have used them, I'm saying the good guys should have. I can't really see the time turners being this big treasure anyway, as they're handed out to a bright third-year student for no greater purpose than attending more classes than physically possible.

[Inner Stickler]

And McGonagall implied it was a hell of a lot of work to get that for Hermione and it was a huge exception and would probably never happen again.

As for taking over the world, I disagree that the wizards would really be able to take over the world that easily. The goblins, for example appear to be sitting quite prettily acting as a gobetween. If wizards got imperialistic ambitions, they very well might sound the alarm and alert the muggles. Even with magic, I think it would be a battle between a few big bears and a shit ton of rats. Eventually the rats will win from sheer numbers.

[Harlequin]

And McGonagall implied it was a hell of a lot of work to get that for Hermione and it was a huge exception and would probably never happen again.

I missed that, but still: they could get it for Hermione, huge exception or not. Whoever was custodian of the timeturners couldn't loan one out to fight the Dark Lord?

[Inner Stickler]

I don't think it works like that in the HPverse. I'm having difficulty putting it into words but the timeline in HP is static. It doesn't change. In PoA, Harry and Hermione didn't change anything with their second trip through those three hours because they had been there three hours earlier to facilitate the events. Does that make sense? If someone tried to overtly upend the timeline, I think bad things would happen.

[AllWalker]

I don't think it works like that in the HPverse. I'm having difficulty putting it into words but the timeline in HP is static. It doesn't change. In PoA, Harry and Hermione didn't change anything with their second trip through those three hours because they had been there three hours earlier to facilitate the events. Does that make sense? If someone tried to overtly upend the timeline, I think bad things would happen.

But Hermione specifically says wizards who mess around with time often end up killing their own future or past selves. Killing past self = changing history. But then, how it was used in HP3 suggests deterministic timetravel, so yay for another inconsistency.

[sturmhauke]

I don't think wizards would have an easy time countering modern weaponry. Maybe Dumbledore could ward off a flamethrower, but what about an incendiary bomb? A depleted uranium antitank round? I'm pretty sure if it came to all out warfare, the wizards would lose.