Women and Gender Politics in Star Trek

[pepperlandgirl]

I think Kirk would have bedded T'Pau, given the opportunity.

[dread pirate jimbo]

Remember that episode where the very-pregnant Horta tried to put the sexy moves on Kirk until Spock jumped in and started mind-melding with her and then Kirk had McCoy come down and administer first aid to her, so moved he was by her overtures of love to him? And then McCoy said "I'm a doctor, not a bricklayer." That was awesome.

Good times!

[eleanorigby]

I watched Star Trek: The Motion Picture for the first time last night, and was rather pleased to see that Chapel became a doctor, and that Rand was no longer a Yeoman. I think that, coupled with information dread pirate jimbo added, does point to what I initially suspected--there was a problem there but it wasn't necessarily with Gene Roddenberry.

NO, NO, NO! Please don't fall for the very old and stale concept that women are nurses because they couldn't become doctors! It may have been true way back in the day, but it is NOT true now. Medicine and nursing are intertwined, but different disciplines. I found it to be something of a betrayal that Chapel became a doctor. We did not become nurses because we couldn't get in to med school. We also did not become nurses in order to marry doctors (another chestnut that deserves contempt). I was pissed at the new movie because it reinforced this very stereotype. There is no reason for Chapel to become a doctor (unless her character truly desired it--and we were never shown that). And I disagree that Chapel was never shown being a nurse--she not only is shown doing some (rudimentary, true) nursing, she is even shown arguing with McCoy and calling him on some of his shit and she advocates for her patients. As a role model for 1960s nurses, Chapel is pretty good. Remember, in 1960s nursing (and even when I started in 1985), nurses were expected to given up their seats in the nurse's station for doctors when they came to make rounds.


RE the sexism in the TOS. Yes, it is there, but for those who weren't alive in those days, it is hard to imagine what it was like. My mother could NOT get a credit card in her own name in 1971, to use just one example, it just wasn't possible w/o her husband's permission. Women often couldn't get bank accounts without their husband's approval. The mini-skirts, the sexist remarks made (early in the show by some male crew members re Rand--can't remember the show. They're throw away remarks that would land either of the dicks in a lawsuit today), the paucity of solid roles for women, these are all the network's fault and the general state of society's, IMO.

If you think about it, TOS took on so many social topics that are NOT even alluded to in today's TV shows. I'm not excusing their lack of gender advocacy, I'm expressing amazement that they could do what they did at all.


RE Rand and the near rape by Kirk scene: IMO, it plays out completely naturally. This shit still happens today. A younger female who has a mild crush on her superior officer/director is put in an awkward position by his violation of decency and protocol. What does she do? We see this sometimes with newer nurses and older doctors (not all of either category, of course!). The newer nurses lack assertiveness and confidence and don't want to make waves etc. There are some men who have been getting away with this kind of shit since time immemorial--I highly doubt that this kind of thing would have gone away in the 23rd century... So does Rand just kick Kirk's ass? No--she has to exist on this ship and it's her word against his. Kudos to her for even speaking up.

Anyway, we know of Kirk's attraction to her from other shows and his (understandable) frustrations with being the Captain (love/hate relationship etc). We know she has a crush on him. I am sure that Star Fleet thought it just dandy to assign him an attractive female (they probably thought they were helping him out[nudge, nudge, wink, wink]--talk about rampant sexism! But that's just my opinion), yet he struggled (successfully) against this attraction until IdKirk.

My take on the mess is not that Rand is shouldering the blame for the assault; to me, her "apology" says that she understands his attraction to her (she was clueless about it before) and that she accepts that both must put their physical feelings aside (and she needs to grow out of her crush). IMO, they come to a better understanding of one another through the experience.*



*Which is not to say that if Kirk had just upped and assaulted her that it would have been ok or they would have arrived at the same professional detent at all. If Kirk hadn't been split and had just gone berserk and tried to rape her, he should have been thrown out of Star Fleet, but maybe he wouldn't have (given the sexism within the series).


The Enemy Within is just batshit insane, though. Talk about some fundamental male fears of women's empowerment! That's more embarrassing for me to watch than Spock's Brain (which I agree with whoever upthread said that it wasn't so much that females couldn't run a civilization, it was that both genders were needed). And IMO, Scotty has always been a sexist bastard. He is the most courtly of all the officers, and the most patronizing.


I don't really see Kirk as the hound that he is claimed to be. He was certainly more subtle about it than most 60s men. IMO, it was more the women throwing themselves at him than him sniffing around.

[pepperlandgirl]

I watched Star Trek: The Motion Picture for the first time last night, and was rather pleased to see that Chapel became a doctor, and that Rand was no longer a Yeoman. I think that, coupled with information dread pirate jimbo added, does point to what I initially suspected--there was a problem there but it wasn't necessarily with Gene Roddenberry.

NO, NO, NO! Please don't fall for the very old and stale concept that women are nurses because they couldn't become doctors! It may have been true way back in the day, but it is NOT true now. Medicine and nursing are intertwined, but different disciplines. I found it to be something of a betrayal that Chapel became a doctor. We did not become nurses because we couldn't get in to med school. We also did not become nurses in order to marry doctors (another chestnut that deserves contempt). I was pissed at the new movie because it reinforced this very stereotype. There is no reason for Chapel to become a doctor (unless her character truly desired it--and we were never shown that). And I disagree that Chapel was never shown being a nurse--she not only is shown doing some (rudimentary, true) nursing, she is even shown arguing with McCoy and calling him on some of his shit and she advocates for her patients. As a role model for 1960s nurses, Chapel is pretty good. Remember, in 1960s nursing (and even when I started in 1985), nurses were expected to given up their seats in the nurse's station for doctors when they came to make rounds.

I see what you're saying here, and I shouldn't have assumed that Chapel was making strides by moving on from the lesser nursing to become a greater doctor. I mean, I didn't think nursing was lesser, but I see exactly why it looks like that's what I was buying into. I was thinking of it in terms of being promoted. Spock gets to be a commander then a captain. Uhura is promoted to commander eventually. And Chapel is promoted to doctor--which actually isn't right.

On the other hand, I wonder if it was simply a nod to the fact that in the 60s, Chapel couldn't have been a doctor, regardless of what the creators/writers/actress may have wanted. And it was such a very small point of the film--really just a set up for McCoy to bitch about something--I wonder why they went out of their way to include it at all unless they thought it was an example of how things have improved in the past decade.

RE the sexism in the TOS. Yes, it is there, but for those who weren't alive in those days, it is hard to imagine what it was like. My mother could NOT get a credit card in her own name in 1971, to use just one example, it just wasn't possible w/o her husband's permission. Women often couldn't get bank accounts without their husband's approval. The mini-skirts, the sexist remarks made (early in the show by some male crew members re Rand--can't remember the show. They're throw away remarks that would land either of the dicks in a lawsuit today), the paucity of solid roles for women, these are all the network's fault and the general state of society's, IMO.

If you think about it, TOS took on so many social topics that are NOT even alluded to in today's TV shows. I'm not excusing their lack of gender advocacy, I'm expressing amazement that they could do what they did at all.

That's part of what I'm grappling with, actually. I'm aware that Star Trek was just expressing the reality of America before the feminism movement. I understand on an intellectual level how things were for women at the time, but I think it's difficult for me to really grasp it. For example, if I read a book written or set in the 19th century, the very casual sexism is easy for me to understand. But it's more difficult for me to wrap my mind around the shit that was happening less than twenty years before I was born. Especially when I watch Star Trek and in so many other ways, it seems ahead of its time. I mean, in Balance of Terror, Kirk flat out says that bigots are not welcome on his bridge, so the ensign better fucking watchin himself. In 1966, that's huge, and nobody would have missed the real meaning there. While Uhura sits behind him with her ass hanging out because her skirt is so short.

RE Rand and the near rape by Kirk scene: IMO, it plays out completely naturally. This shit still happens today. A younger female who has a mild crush on her superior officer/director is put in an awkward position by his violation of decency and protocol. What does she do? We see this sometimes with newer nurses and older doctors (not all of either category, of course!). The newer nurses lack assertiveness and confidence and don't want to make waves etc. There are some men who have been getting away with this kind of shit since time immemorial--I highly doubt that this kind of thing would have gone away in the 23rd century... So does Rand just kick Kirk's ass? No--she has to exist on this ship and it's her word against his. Kudos to her for even speaking up.

Anyway, we know of Kirk's attraction to her from other shows and his (understandable) frustrations with being the Captain (love/hate relationship etc). We know she has a crush on him. I am sure that Star Fleet thought it just dandy to assign him an attractive female (they probably thought they were helping him out[nudge, nudge, wink, wink]--talk about rampant sexism! But that's just my opinion), yet he struggled (successfully) against this attraction until IdKirk.

Yes, in The Naked Time, Kirk makes it very clear that he's frustrated but he knows and understands his obligations as Captain. Which...now that I think about isn't dissimilar to the situation in Balance of Terror. Kirk is a good captain and a good man. He doesn't tolerate bigotry and he doesn't use his power to have inappropriate, dubiously consentual relationships with his yeoman.

My take on the mess is not that Rand is shouldering the blame for the assault; to me, her "apology" says that she understands his attraction to her (she was clueless about it before) and that she accepts that both must put their physical feelings aside (and she needs to grow out of her crush). IMO, they come to a better understanding of one another through the experience.*

Yes, I could agree with that reading of her apology. But her apology coupled with Spock's final lines in the episode, implying that Rand found idKirk attractive/arousing/interesting, just put a bad taste in my mouth.

And IMO, Scotty has always been a sexist bastard. He is the most courtly of all the officers, and the most patronizing.

Yes. He's got moments when he's made of pure awesome, like A Taste of Armegeddon. But they did make an entire episode around the fact that it's really not a stretch to imagine Scotty murdering women in cold blood.

I don't really see Kirk as the hound that he is claimed to be. He was certainly more subtle about it than most 60s men. IMO, it was more the women throwing themselves at him than him sniffing around.

Kirk goes out of his way to seduce a woman at least three times--and in all three times, it was more of an effort to get more information or save his ass or the Enterprise. In The Conscience of the King he really lays on the charm to get more information about Kodos. In Catspaw, he's trying to rescue his ship. And in Mirror, Mirror when he seduces the evil Kirk's girlfriend (I actually have a lot more to say about that episode but I need to rewatch it first). The issue isn't so much that he's a horndog. The issue for me is that when a woman is written into an episode, it's almost always to damsel or to swoon. There are exceptions (T'Pau and T'Pring, but of course, T'Pring was a devious little witch who happily sacrificed Kirk's life just so she could dump Spock) but they're few and far between.

[eleanorigby]

I see what you're saying here, and I shouldn't have assumed that Chapel was making strides by moving on from the lesser nursing to become a greater doctor. I mean, I didn't think nursing was lesser, but I see exactly why it looks like that's what I was buying into. I was thinking of it in terms of being promoted. Spock gets to be a commander then a captain. Uhura is promoted to commander eventually. And Chapel is promoted to doctor--which actually isn't right.

Thank you for being so amenable. :smile: They really are separate tracks, but the public doesn't see it that way at all (and neither do some doctors, still). And it's nursing's fault that this state of mind still exists--we have not done a good job of promoting our profession or our contribution. Hollywood is much to blame, though--most of what you see on TV done by docs is done by nurses (not surgery, but most other things).

On the other hand, I wonder if it was simply a nod to the fact that in the 60s, Chapel couldn't have been a doctor, regardless of what the creators/writers/actress may have wanted. And it was such a very small point of the film--really just a set up for McCoy to bitch about something--I wonder why they went out of their way to include it at all unless they thought it was an example of how things have improved in the past decade.

I think it was just an assumption much like yours. Plus, saying "doctor" takes about 1 second; explaining how Chapel becomes Chief Nursing Officer and is in charge of the running of sick bay, including staffing, supplies etc is too long and involved. :wink:

That's part of what I'm grappling with, actually. I'm aware that Star Trek was just expressing the reality of America before the feminism movement. I understand on an intellectual level how things were for women at the time, but I think it's difficult for me to really grasp it. For example, if I read a book written or set in the 19th century, the very casual sexism is easy for me to understand. But it's more difficult for me to wrap my mind around the shit that was happening less than twenty years before I was born. Especially when I watch Star Trek and in so many other ways, it seems ahead of its time. I mean, in Balance of Terror, Kirk flat out says that bigots are not welcome on his bridge, so the ensign better fucking watchin himself. In 1966, that's huge, and nobody would have missed the real meaning there. While Uhura sits behind him with her ass hanging out because her skirt is so short.

I don't know if we'll ever know how much was Roddenberry and how much was a sop to the network. In an interview after one of the films, Roddenberry's son says something like "My dad liked intelligent, competent women, but he also like beautiful ones, so the show depicts both.", which is its own little thread right there!

Yes, in The Naked Time, Kirk makes it very clear that he's frustrated but he knows and understands his obligations as Captain. Which...now that I think about isn't dissimilar to the situation in Balance of Terror. Kirk is a good captain and a good man. He doesn't tolerate bigotry and he doesn't use his power to have inappropriate, dubiously consentual relationships with his yeoman.

But he is still human, and he admits that he fights this attraction and impulse. That's one of the reasons I like Kirk so much. He also does show respect for his female crew in that he does not enter into lewd remarks or the "admiration" of the other male crew members express. I can only think of one time he does--sorry, I cannot recall the episode--at the end of the show, he says something about shore leave being very welcome and he eyes some female crew member. It struck a wrong note with me. But usually, Kirk finds himself in the interesting position of having his choice of women (they do tend to throw themselves at him) and yet he is still lonely. I like the paradox and that Shatner was able to convey the dichotomy and something of his dilemma to us. Could we say that Kirk is (perhaps) the first metrosexual? Maybe not--but he is not as one sided as his female counterparts.

Yes, I could agree with that reading of her apology. But her apology coupled with Spock's final lines in the episode, implying that Rand found idKirk attractive/arousing/interesting, just put a bad taste in my mouth.

Ew! I don't recall that. SPOCK said something like that? I'll have to rewatch it soon and look for that. Ugh.

Kirk goes out of his way to seduce a woman at least three times--and in all three times, it was more of an effort to get more information or save his ass or the Enterprise. In The Conscience of the King he really lays on the charm to get more information about Kodos. In Catspaw, he's trying to rescue his ship. And in Mirror, Mirror when he seduces the evil Kirk's girlfriend (I actually have a lot more to say about that episode but I need to rewatch it first).]/quote]

And each of those women attempt to use Kirk as well. I actually see his actions as being more forward thinking than it would appear at first glance: given that the common theme was that women didn't have much in the way of brains and that they needed protecting, Kirk using them the way they would use him is a playing field leveler. (IMO)

[quote:3ojb1d7j] The issue isn't so much that he's a horndog. The issue for me is that when a woman is written into an episode, it's almost always to damsel or to swoon. There are exceptions (T'Pau and T'Pring, but of course, T'Pring was a devious little witch who happily sacrificed Kirk's life just so she could dump Spock) but they're few and far between.

[/quote:3ojb1d7j]

Yes, I struggle with that as well. Which makes it all the more refreshing when one of the women has IT bad for one of the others--McCoy or Spock or Scotty. Kirk's reaction to this is funny--I do like a show that can laugh at itself.

Other "feminist" characters: In the episode, The Cloud Somethings, there is one woman who has no time for Kirk shenanigans, wants no man and only wants to advocate for her people, the miners. To me, she's the most "modern" woman on the show. I have this personal loathing for Edith Keeler (I have Joan Collins issues), so I discount her (but not the episode--one of TOS's best). I also like the pissed off scientist who ends up "donating" her body to the amorphous thing so that they can be together on their asteroid.


(I really need to keep better track of episode titles, just to make discussions more comprehensible).

I just finished (in June) watching all of TOS on cbs.com and watching the first 6 movies as well. Love this thread!

[Count Blucher]

Pepperland, I think you've discovered that 55 years can be a long time.

PS- The women of 'A Christmas Carol' were written worthless & weak too. Damn that Reginald Owen..!