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Thread: On Trolls and Trolling

  1. #1
    Stegodon Fenris's avatar
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    Default On Trolls and Trolling

    Over in NAF's thread in The Hive, What_Exit? said
    But on issues like dealing with trolls, we do need faster feedback. We should be able to at least make a decision within 24 hours I think.
    I'm in a weird position here--I post here some, I chat a reasonable amount and I like it here. I hope I'm not coming across as an intruder telling you what to do, but this point is making me nuts. (PS--I asked a couple of mods and they said that they didn't mind if I went ahead and posted this for discussion)

    Look--you're all using the term "troll" to mean too many things and none of you are on the same page. In part, that's because we all come from the SDMB which used a couple of terms incorrectly and/or interchangeably (as far as the rest of the internet is concerned)

    1) Spammers and Spam-Bots. there's no discussion necessary. Delete their stuff and ban their asses. This isn't a transparency thing.

    2) Socks: You can't stop them. Give up. Fix your rules to recognize that. Unless you're going to ban Anon IPs (which would be a disaster) and IP check every poster / spot check IPs (which will make you insane) it's pointless to try. Therefore, your existing rules are moot. All you do is handicap your regular posters from having fun and there are socks anyway. I know this sounds like "relax, lay back and enjoy it" but Giraffe ended up with some funny socks like Panda, Hobo and the Roach swarm.

    3) Actual trolls: People posting to get a reaction: Anger trolls (MC--he posts to piss you off), sympathy trolls (Remember LilTassie and her kid with cancer?), concern trolls (oh gosh! You're not being 100% transparent! I just now joined to point that out), racist trolls---they're just not that big of a deal. Let the posters handle 'em and if they get out of hand, 101 'em for a few hours. No discussion needed. If you've got someone disrupting a conversation for everyone else, warn once, then 101. Don't wait 24 hours and let them derail a thread in progress.It's just not that big of a deal to be 101'd. If everyone says "I don't think that was a good 101ing. You made a mistake", you apologize and move on and the worst that happens is that someone can't post for a few hours.

    The point is, it seems like the mods are spending more time worrying about trolls than having fun on the board. To me, the level of concern and stress over trolls is overblown. The only time a mod really needs to get involved with trolls is if they're actively disrupting conversation.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    I am a total stranger to these boards. I am from Belgium. I have never been here before (except that one time) and I fully endorse Mr. Fenris's post (above) despite having no connection to him whatsoever.

  3. #3
    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    If I suspect someone is a sock, who should I tell?

    Thank you for posting that, Fenris. I agree with you 100%. Now go back to Giraffe and don't darken our door again.

  4. #4
    MOON GIRL FIGHTS CRIME Myrnalene's avatar
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    I have to stick up for our mods a little and point out that there is no real paranoia of socks here. Conservative and Chris Hansen are funny socks who have been allowed to stay (although Chris Hansen was momentarily lost in the purge ).

    But I agree with the general thrust of your post that the mods in general spend too much time wringing their hands over obvious trolls. If someone is here for no other reason that to disrupt, screw trying to be fair to them. Good faith posters should be treated with respect and even-handedness, people like lurko should be moved to 101 after they have made it clear that they are only interested in stirring shit.
    everything in nature is sort of gross when you look at it too closely. what is an apple? basically the uterus of a tree - terrifel

  5. #5
    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    I would like to see more comments on this. I think we have been too slow to give out short 101'ings. Now that the entire mod team has the tools (please see my PM's on this if you are mod staff) we should note once and 101 faster. Especially for any posters that cause trouble more often.

  6. #6
    Stegodon
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    Quote Originally posted by Total Stranger
    I am a total stranger to these boards. I am from Belgium. I have never been here before (except that one time) and I fully endorse Mr. Fenris's post (above) despite having no connection to him whatsoever.
    Are those chocolatey waffles in your pocket, or are you just trying to lure me out and over to Mr. Fenris' side?!

  7. #7
    Stegodon Fenris's avatar
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    Quote Originally posted by Myrnalene
    I have to stick up for our mods a little and point out that there is no real paranoia of socks here. Conservative and Chris Hansen are funny socks who have been allowed to stay (although Chris Hansen was momentarily lost in the purge ).
    Fair enough-I was recalling some...well...hand-wringing over a sock who attacked someone and that he wasn't within the rules (Socks have to have the word "sock" in the name and only be used for posting sensitive stuff).

    My point wasn't against the mods, but the rules in the case of socks: if you're gonna allow them, then ditch the rules that prohibit them. Having rules that you're ignoring is just a bad idea all around.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    Once again, Mr Fenris (with whom I have no connection whatsoever) makes an excellent point and I fully endorse it! Huzzah!

  9. #9
    MOON GIRL FIGHTS CRIME Myrnalene's avatar
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    Quote Originally posted by Fenris
    My point wasn't against the mods, but the rules in the case of socks: if you're gonna allow them, then ditch the rules that prohibit them. Having rules that you're ignoring is just a bad idea all around.
    Sure, I agree with this.
    everything in nature is sort of gross when you look at it too closely. what is an apple? basically the uterus of a tree - terrifel

  10. #10
    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    Fenris, I thought this would be a good place to say that you have been an amazingly good egg over here, and I really appreciate it.

  11. #11
    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    Quote Originally posted by What Exit?
    I would like to see more comments on this. I think we have been too slow to give out short 101'ings. Now that the entire mod team has the tools (please see my PM's on this if you are mod staff) we should note once and 101 faster. Especially for any posters that cause trouble more often.
    I absolutely agree with this. 101-ing isn't a big deal, nor does it need a huge discussion.
    So now they are just dirt-covered English people in fur pelts with credit cards.

  12. #12
    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    Quote Originally posted by Caerie
    Quote Originally posted by What Exit?
    I would like to see more comments on this. I think we have been too slow to give out short 101'ings. Now that the entire mod team has the tools (please see my PM's on this if you are mod staff) we should note once and 101 faster. Especially for any posters that cause trouble more often.
    I absolutely agree with this. 101-ing isn't a big deal, nor does it need a huge discussion.
    I agree as well. Isn't the point of 101 that it means we don't have to take drastic actions? And if it isn't a drastic action, and it can easily be reversed, why all the angst over it?

  13. #13
    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    Quote Originally posted by Sarahfeena
    Fenris, I thought this would be a good place to say that you have been an amazingly good egg over here, and I really appreciate it.
    He is always a good egg. Actually when he left the Dope for a while, he was one of the few posters that I effectively begged to return.

    Quote Originally posted by Caerie
    Quote Originally posted by What Exit?
    I would like to see more comments on this. I think we have been too slow to give out short 101'ings. Now that the entire mod team has the tools (please see my PM's on this if you are mod staff) we should note once and 101 faster. Especially for any posters that cause trouble more often.
    I absolutely agree with this. 101-ing isn't a big deal, nor does it need a huge discussion.
    I think I will plan to use it more. Including the next time Myrna, Exy and McNutty mix it up in chat and don't stop, I'll move all three to 101 for a few hours. They can fight over there to their heats content.

  14. #14
    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    Quote Originally posted by What Exit?
    I think I will plan to use it more. Including the next time Myrna, Exy and McNutty mix it up in chat and don't stop, I'll move all three to 101 for a few hours. They can fight over there to their heats content.
    [Underlining mine]

    Interesting typo.
    So now they are just dirt-covered English people in fur pelts with credit cards.

  15. #15
    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    Quote Originally posted by What Exit?
    Quote Originally posted by Sarahfeena
    Fenris, I thought this would be a good place to say that you have been an amazingly good egg over here, and I really appreciate it.
    He is always a good egg. Actually when he left the Dope for a while, he was one of the few posters that I effectively begged to return.


    [quote=What Exit?]
    Quote Originally posted by Caerie
    Quote Originally posted by "What Exit?":7wty23j8
    I would like to see more comments on this. I think we have been too slow to give out short 101'ings. Now that the entire mod team has the tools (please see my PM's on this if you are mod staff) we should note once and 101 faster. Especially for any posters that cause trouble more often.
    I absolutely agree with this. 101-ing isn't a big deal, nor does it need a huge discussion.
    I think I will plan to use it more. Including the next time Myrna, Exy and McNutty mix it up in chat and don't stop, I'll move all three to 101 for a few hours. They can fight over there to their heats content.[/quote:7wty23j8] That is a GREAT idea.

  16. #16
    Oliphaunt featherlou's avatar
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    I'd rather see Total Stranger arguing with Fenris, personally, but that might be a little too Liberal.

    I also think this is a good idea, that we have more fun and less worry here.

  17. #17
    Oliphaunt
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    Quote Originally posted by Fenris
    The point is, it seems like the mods are spending more time worrying about trolls than having fun on the board. To me, the level of concern and stress over trolls is overblown. The only time a mod really needs to get involved with trolls is if they're actively disrupting conversation.
    I agree. To my mind we have taken actions on more than one occasion that just open us up for a solid trolling. I think if we just relaxed a bit we could deal with the real problems (like the tubgirl PM attacks) when they come up, and let everyone else play. I mentioned before, I like the way you guys run Giraffe. I spend a lot of time on those boards because they are so much fun, and I think the staff has a lot to do with creating that atmosphere. I would like to see us take more of that attitude over here.

    So in short, I agree with you and the delightful fellow from Belgium. Good show.

  18. #18
    AWESOME SAUS Elyanna's avatar
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    Quote Originally posted by What Exit?
    I think I will plan to use it more. Including the next time Myrna, Exy and McNutty mix it up in chat and don't stop, I'll move all three to 101 for a few hours. They can fight over there to their heats content.
    OH MAN DO IT!
    "There are no ordinary people. ... It is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit." C.S. Lewis

  19. #19
    Jesus F'ing Christ Glazer's avatar
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    Now don't everybody go and start to be reasonable 'n shit. I need to come here each evening to a drama fest so outrageous that my life looks sane in comparison. Or maybe not.

    I been saying for awhile when children act up put 'em in time out and be done with it.
    Box 'em, ban 'em, or can 'em I don't care just don't make a federal case every single time.
    Welcome to Mellophant.

    We started with nothing and we still have most of it left.

  20. #20
    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    In chat, Fenris just suggested the following wording for the sock rule, and I kind of love it:

    Quote Originally posted by Fenris
    On Socks: We don't care. Go nuts. If your sock attacks people, we'll box it. If your sock is too disruptive, we'll ban it. Make enough disruptive socks and we'll IP hunt you down, come to your house and kick your ankles.

  21. #21
    Stegodon Fenris's avatar
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    This came up in chat and I was asked to post it here:

    Your current sock policy:
    On sockpuppets: Sockpuppets are allowed for the purposes of asking sensitive questions, related to, for example, medical problems. Asking questions about bannings and board administration is not a proper usage. Sockpuppets used for this purpose must include the word SOCK in their usernames.Sockpuppets used for trolling will be banned, and the original user warned or banned outright, depending on circumstances.
    My suggested sock policy:

    On Socks: We don't care. Go nuts. Have fun. Post sensitive stuff. Post silly stuff. Argue with yourself about ontological modal proofs of God. If your sock disrupts threads, attacks people, or misbehaves, we'll box it. If your sock is too disruptive, we'll ban it. Make enough disruptive socks and we'll IP hunt you down, come to your house and kick your ankles until you cry. Then ban you.
    Point is, you CAN'T enforce the current sock policy. Unless you're IP checking every new account, and banning proxies, socks will get in. So you might as well come up with rules that deal with the fact that socks are here, will continue to be here and that the behavior of socks needs to be the same as the behavior of all other posters.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    Good heavens!

    Sarafeena has STOLEN your post and beaten you to the punch, Mr. Fenris.

    Of course we've never met and I'm from Belgium and don't know your strange customs, but in MY country, you would find her home and go kick her in the ankles. Then give her a present of three dead tulips.

  23. #23
    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    Quote Originally posted by Total Stranger
    Good heavens!

    Sarafeena has STOLEN your post and beaten you to the punch, Mr. Fenris.

    Of course we've never met and I'm from Belgium and don't know your strange customs, but in MY country, you would find her home and go kick her in the ankles. Then give her a present of three dead tulips.
    Hey, I gave your, ahem...friend full credit AND a compliment, so you'd better watch your own ankles, Mr. Stranger.

  24. #24
    Resident Troublemaker beebs's avatar
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    Quote Originally posted by What Exit?
    Quote Originally posted by Caerie
    I absolutely agree with this. 101-ing isn't a big deal, nor does it need a huge discussion.
    I think I will plan to use it more.
    Pull the strings baby.

  25. #25
    Elephant Feirefiz's avatar
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    My personal suggestions would be something along the following lines:
    • Allow socks.
      Everything else doesn't work anyway.[/*:m:3at11vtt]
    • Reserve the right to ban socks of banned or 101ed posters.
      I don't think you should put any real effort into this. If you can't tell that you missed one then there isn't much reason to care. Then again there is no need to tie your own hands in egregious cases.[/*:m:3at11vtt]
    • Repeal the prohibition on checking a poster's IP.
      As long as that's a standard feature of the board software, that limitation is both unnatural and unenforceable.[/*:m:3at11vtt]
    • Do not give socks any expectation of privacy unless they obey strict rules.
      The rules could be basically the same as the current legitimate uses of socks.[/*:m:3at11vtt]

  26. #26
    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    How much software savviness do you need to set up a spam attack? Can any fucking idiot do it, because that certainly seems to be the case?
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

  27. #27
    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov
    How much software savviness do you need to set up a spam attack? Can any fucking idiot do it, because that certainly seems to be the case?
    Not much at all. Apparently we had a straight spammer two nights ago and another nasty image spammer last night. The barriers to spammers is nothing. The barriers to image spammers/tagger/vandals is minimal.

  28. #28
    Oliphaunt featherlou's avatar
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    Quote Originally posted by Sarahfeena
    In chat, Fenris just suggested the following wording for the sock rule, and I kind of love it:

    Quote Originally posted by Fenris
    On Socks: We don't care. Go nuts. If your sock attacks people, we'll box it. If your sock is too disruptive, we'll ban it. Make enough disruptive socks and we'll IP hunt you down, come to your house and kick your ankles.
    Perfect. I might tweak that to "pants them," but otherwise perfect.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: On Trolls and Trolling

    Quote Originally posted by Total Stranger
    Good heavens!

    Sarafeena has STOLEN your post and beaten you to the punch, Mr. Fenris.

    Of course we've never met and I'm from Belgium and don't know your strange customs, but in MY country, you would find her home and go kick her in the ankles. Then give her a present of three dead tulips.
    It's Belgian Waffles, ya sockhead!


    Regards,
    Inspector Fenris

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