Let's rewrite the Trojan War myths

[Skald the Rhymer]

Please note that I did not write Let's rewrite the Iliad. After all, Homer's lesser epic* is not the story of the war between the Hellenes & the Anatolians; it is the story of a particular incident in the middle of that conflict. What I'd like to do is get Dopers' thoughts on the entire cycle, which I judge to begin with the wedding of Thetis & Peleus and to end with the sack of Ilium.**

As I'm sure most of you know, the various myths about this conflict contradict one another. This is only to be expected, since they are the products of many different traditions and many different authors, and said authors were unlikely to be concerned with honoring one another's continuity. But even making that allowance, two aspects of the various tale have always bothered me. The lesser is the issue of Achilles' invulnerability. It's hard to reconcile the manner of his death with the events of the Iliad. If your flesh is proof against all mortal weapons, you don't wait around for a new suit of armor when you're en-fucking-raged over the death of your best friend; you go kick ass however you happen to be dressed. But I'll leave that for somebody else to fanwank.†

Athena's role in the conflict is the bit that's always vexed me. I never believed that she'd give a good goddamn about the Apple of Discord. She's the goddess of war, wisdom, and handicraft, after all, not of love, beauty, & ghetto fabulousity. On, I can buy that Hera would insist that an apple with "For the Fairest" on it be given to her, even with Aphrodite sitting ten feet away. But Athena? She'd say that she had better things to do than prance around naked in front of some mortal nitwit. "I'm the smart one," she'd say. "Also, with the exception of the Master Rapist & the Queen of Misplaced Vengeance, I could kick any any five of your asses and take the apple if I wanted it. And that includes you, Ares."

Sorry, I just don't buy Athena's role as written. It seems more likely to me that either (a) only Hera and Aphrodite were disputing over the Apple of Discord, or (b) Artemis or Hebe was the third goddess in that fight (though there's problems with the former)††, or that, if Athena was involved in the dispute, it had nothing to do with vanity and everything to do with an intricate plot of hers to do away with Ilium.*†

But that's just me. Anybody else have any thoughts--on this or any other part of the Trojan war story?


[sub:2vez54er]*That's right. Lesser. The Odyssey is at least five times as interesting, not least because it has a protagonist who is not, you know, actually the villain.
** I suppose you could argue that the cycle really starts with the rape of Leda. But I just checked the list of things I care about and Leda's nowhere on it.
† Achilles is also on the aforementioned list.
†† Incredibly, I do care about this one on account of loving Artemis, but I have decided to shut up about it for the moment.
*† I never said Athena was nice.[/sub:2vez54er]

[What Exit?]

Agreed on Athena, she was obviously manipulating everyone involved for her own plan. Hera is the shrill, jealous harpy of the Gods and Aphrodite is an obvious self-absorbed airhead. Both easy to manipulate.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Agreed on Athena, she was obviously manipulating everyone involved for her own plan. Hera is the shrill, jealous harpy of the Gods and Aphrodite is an obvious self-absorbed airhead. Both easy to manipulate.

I wouldn't call Hera a harpy. If nothing else, she was quite formidable, having beat the holy crap out of Artemis on two separate occasions.

Anyway, WHY was Athena manipulating everybody? I have my suspicions, of course.

[Orual]

The lesser is the issue of Achilles' invulnerability. It's hard to reconcile the manner of his death with the events of the Iliad. If your flesh is proof against all mortal weapons, you don't wait around for a new suit of armor when you're en-fucking-raged over the death of your best friend; you go kick ass however you happen to be dressed. But I'll leave that for somebody else to fanwank.†

[boring academic answer] The idea that Achilles was invulnerable was from a later mythological tradition than Homer's compositions.

Sorry, I just don't buy Athena's role as written. It seems more likely to me that either (a) only Hera and Aphrodite were disputing over the Apple of Discord, or (b) Artemis or Hebe was the third goddess in that fight (though there's problems with the former)††, or that, if Athena was involved in the dispute, it had nothing to do with vanity and everything to do with an intricate plot of hers to do away with Ilium.*†

Artemis couldn't be in Apple of Discord fight for a very simple reason: pitting her against Aphrodite would pit her against Troy which would pit her against her TWIN BROTHER. Ain't NEVER gonna happen. And she's not all hung up on her looks anyways.

I wouldn't call Hera a harpy. If nothing else, she was quite formidable, having beat the holy crap out of Artemis on two separate occasions.

Anyway, WHY was Athena manipulating everybody? I have my suspicions, of course.

Harpies are scary motherfuckers. Being a harpy doesn't preclude one from being formidable. And Hera embodies harpy-dom in all she does.

Athena gets bored. What's the pointing of even having all these people running around if you can't mess with them now and again?

[Skald the Rhymer]

The lesser is the issue of Achilles' invulnerability. It's hard to reconcile the manner of his death with the events of the Iliad. If your flesh is proof against all mortal weapons, you don't wait around for a new suit of armor when you're en-fucking-raged over the death of your best friend; you go kick ass however you happen to be dressed. But I'll leave that for somebody else to fanwank.†

[boring academic answer] The idea that Achilles was invulnerable was from a later mythological tradition than Homer's compositions.

Oh, I know that, though I might not have phrased it quite that way, but rather that Achilles' invulnerability came from different and probably later sources than those upon which Homer drew.

Sorry, I just don't buy Athena's role as written. It seems more likely to me that either (a) only Hera and Aphrodite were disputing over the Apple of Discord, or (b) Artemis or Hebe was the third goddess in that fight (though there's problems with the former)††, or that, if Athena was involved in the dispute, it had nothing to do with vanity and everything to do with an intricate plot of hers to do away with Ilium.*†

Artemis couldn't be in Apple of Discord fight for a very simple reason: pitting her against Aphrodite would pit her against Troy which would pit her against her TWIN BROTHER. Ain't NEVER gonna happen. And she's not all hung up on her looks anyways.

And you think Athena was more likely to be hung up on her looks than Artemis? I think Acteon might disagree.

Besides, though the Apple of Discord is the ultimate cause of the War, being involved in that dispute wouldn't necessarily mean that Artemis would end up opposing the Trojans. First Eris, looking to start something partly because she's in a bad mood and partly because that's her gig, throws the Apple into the wedding party. The goddesses argue over who should get it and ask Zeus to decide; Zeus, not wanting to get on the bad side of either Aphrodite or Hera, suggests they pick a mortal to describe. Being immortal they don't wait fifteen or twenty years, because to them that's, like, the next afternoon, and Athena was busy anyway. Divine career girl, she is, as opposed to the Immortal Soccer Mom and Celestial Party Girl. My point is, the mortal chosen happens to be a prince of Troy, whose father really should have gone ahead and killed him in the cradle as recommended by oracle. Paris' judgment in favor of Aphrodite (quite obviously motivated by honesty and his lower head rather than perspicacity and the upper) is what brings Hera's wrath down on Ilium.

It occurred to me as I wrote the above that another reason to have Artemis as the 3rd goddess disputing over the Apple is that it evens things out in an odd way. You're right when you say that she's not going to go batshit against Troy the way Hera does, partly because of her brother and partly because she hates Hera anyway and is going to be on the opposite side of her on general principles. As a storyteller (note the subforum!) that seems better to me. One goddess trying to destroy the city, one defending it, and one inclined to neutrality.

I wouldn't call Hera a harpy. If nothing else, she was quite formidable, having beat the holy crap out of Artemis on two separate occasions.

Anyway, WHY was Athena manipulating everybody? I have my suspicions, of course.

Harpies are scary motherfuckers. Being a harpy doesn't preclude one from being formidable. And Hera embodies harpy-dom in all she does.

Athena gets bored. What's the pointing of even having all these people running around if you can't mess with them now and again?[/quote]

I think I've already suggested that the whole thing be an extremely devious plan of old owl-eyes.

My objections to calling Hera a harpy were that (a) harpies are ugly and she is not--no one ever disputes that she's beautiful; and (b) that harpies are renowned for being motiveless in their animosity, which Hera also is not. It's true that, by contemporary standards, she is prone to over-reaction and to taking her vengeance out on those who don't deserve it (as Io, Megeara, and Herakle's children might attest), but she never fires the first shot.

[Orual]

And you think Athena was more likely to be hung up on her looks than Artemis? I think Acteon might disagree.

That was about privacy, not appearance.

Besides, though the Apple of Discord is the ultimate cause of the War, being involved in that dispute wouldn't necessarily mean that Artemis would end up opposing the Trojans.

As long as Paris is the judge, it does. Which it looks like you sort of address in the next bit ...

First Eris, looking to start something partly because she's in a bad mood and partly because that's her gig, throws the Apple into the wedding party. The goddesses argue over who should get it and ask Zeus to decide; Zeus, not wanting to get on the bad side of either Aphrodite or Hera, suggests they pick a mortal to describe. Being immortal they don't wait fifteen or twenty years, because to them that's, like, the next afternoon, and Athena was busy anyway. Divine career girl, she is, as opposed to the Immortal Soccer Mom and Celestial Party Girl. My point is, the mortal chosen happens to be a prince of Troy, whose father really should have gone ahead and killed him in the cradle as recommended by oracle. Paris' judgment in favor of Aphrodite (quite obviously motivated by honesty and his lower head rather than perspicacity and the upper) is what brings Hera's wrath down on Ilium.

"Divine Career Girl". Heh. Awesome. Of course, Hera and Athena don't START the Trojan War. That's all Dipshit McBumblefuck's fault, with the flouting of guest-friendship and the wife-stealing. It just cemented which SIDE Hera and Athena would take. And on Athena's part, it's just an excuse. She could've easily gone the other way - she had enough of a relationship with the Trojans for them to have the Palladium. She probably sided with the Greeks because Odysseus was her VERY FAVORITE PUPPY.

It occurred to me as I wrote the above that another reason to have Artemis as the 3rd goddess disputing over the Apple is that it evens things out in an odd way. You're right when you say that she's not going to go batshit against Troy the way Hera does, partly because of her brother and partly because she hates Hera anyway and is going to be on the opposite side of her on general principles. As a storyteller (note the subforum!) that seems better to me. One goddess trying to destroy the city, one defending it, and one inclined to neutrality.

Hrmm. Your scenario has storytelling merit. But it doesn't jibe with my view of Leto and her kids, so I'm not inclined to agree. I've always seen them as the most clannish of all the crazy incestuous hillbilly Greek Pantheon family. I can't see Artemis NOT taking sides if Apollo does.

My objections to calling Hera a harpy were that (a) harpies are ugly and she is not--no one ever disputes that she's beautiful; and (b) that harpies are renowned for being motiveless in their animosity, which Hera also is not. It's true that, by contemporary standards, she is prone to over-reaction and to taking her vengeance out on those who don't deserve it (as Io, Megeara, and Herakle's children might attest), but she never fires the first shot.

Eh. Does "shrill psychotic bitch" work OK for you?

[Orual]

On a completely different track (and a completely different epic poem) - no way in hell did Aeneas just "lose track of" his wife.

[Skald the Rhymer]

On a completely different track (and a completely different epic poem) - no way in hell did Aeneas just "lose track of" his wife.

I could make the same comment about Theseus, but I am too busy hating the bastard. Herakles should have left his ass in Hades. I mean, he'd gone down for villainous purposes anyway.

Apropos of nothing but exposing myself as a hypocrite, my favorite line in a retelling of Greek myth comes out of Theseus' mouth. It's from Edith Hamilton's Mythology, and it's in the Hercules section (hey, that's what SHE calls him!). Zeus' favorite son has just gone into a mad fit (courtesy of the Queen of Doubly-Misplaced Vengeance) and killed his first wife and their children together. Understandably he is aghast and wants nothing but to be punished; since no one else is up to the job, he decides to kill himself. Theseus, visiting from Athens for plot reasons, stops him by taking Herakles' bloody hands into his own, thus taking the ritual guilt onto himself as well, and says something like, "Do not destroy yourself. Men great of heart can bear the blows of heaven and not flinch."

I mention this partly because I enjoy contradicting myself, partly because I enjoy that line, and partly because it dovetails with things people have written upthread: that the Greeks knew their gods to be, at best, of dubious morality.

[Artemis' murder of Acteon] was about privacy, not appearance.

I have asked you before to stop bothering me with facts.

[Orual]

On a completely different track (and a completely different epic poem) - no way in hell did Aeneas just "lose track of" his wife.

I could make the same comment about Theseus, but I am too busy hating the bastard. Herakles should have left his ass in Hades. I mean, he'd gone down for villainous purposes anyway.

Ah yes the old "even if I did forget my wife on the beach, we certainly can't turn the boat around now" ploy.

Ariadne did end up a goddess, though, so she was probably better off without him

Aeneas was just full of shit, though. He can give his dad a piggyback ride, hang on to his son, but keep half an eye on his wife, so that she doesn't fall into the clutches of rapacious Achaeans? Oh no, that's WAY too much work. Methinks he just saw the sack of Troy as a good opportunity to ditch the broad.

(In a similar vein, Odysseus to Penelope: 'I just had to spend all those years with the exotic, kinky enchantress on her private Mediterranean isle! I was a prisoner.")

I mention this partly because I enjoy contradicting myself, partly because I enjoy that line, and partly because it dovetails with things people have written upthread: that the Greeks knew their gods to be, at best, of dubious morality.

Oh yes indeed. The gods are not good - the gods are just gods: crazy id running wild in the cosmos with superpowers and a nasty sense of humor.

I have asked you before to stop bothering me with facts.

But I like facts! One of my favorite Trojan War-related facts is that Achilles, mighty hero, is in fact a whiny adolescent twerp who goes CRYING to his MAMA when things don't go his way. And it's not even subtext! It's right there in the text!

Also a fact: Hector is 20 times the man any other character in the Iliad is.

[Skald the Rhymer]

[Also a fact: Hector is 20 times the man any other character in the Iliad is.

Madwoman. Clearly the greatest character in the Iliad is the king of Ithaca. No one else comes close.

[Orual]

[Also a fact: Hector is 20 times the man any other character in the Iliad is.

Madwoman. Clearly the greatest character in the Iliad is the king of Ithaca. No one else comes close.

Oh, we're gonna have to throw down on that, Mr. the Rhymer. Odysseus is certainly head-and-shoulders above any of the other Achaeans, and is arguably the best character in the poem.

But Hector is the better man.

[Skald the Rhymer]

[Also a fact: Hector is 20 times the man any other character in the Iliad is.

Madwoman. Clearly the greatest character in the Iliad is the king of Ithaca. No one else comes close.

Oh, we're gonna have to throw down on that, Mr. the Rhymer. Odysseus is certainly head-and-shoulders above any of the other Achaeans, and is arguably the best character in the poem.

But Hector is the better man.

At this point I'll be needn't you to define the difference between "better man" and "better character," Queen of Glome. Bear in mind that I will be forwarding your response to the Fox for review.

[Orual]

At this point I'll be needn't you to define the difference between "better man" and "better character," Queen of Glome. Bear in mind that I will be forwarding your response to the Fox for review.

Odysseus is smarter, and probably a lot more fun at parties. I think he's (mostly) good at heart, but he's got that shifty streak. He's more interesting to read about, but I wouldn't play poker with him.

Hector is the one I'd trust to babysit, or keep an eye on my house. He's such a perfect example of ????? and Lawful Goodity he was considered one of the ideal chivalrous men in the Middle Ages, despite being a pagan.

[Skald the Rhymer]

At this point I'll be needn't you to define the difference between "better man" and "better character," Queen of Glome. Bear in mind that I will be forwarding your response to the Fox for review.

Odysseus is smarter, and probably a lot more fun at parties. I think he's (mostly) good at heart, but he's got that shifty streak. He's more interesting to read about, but I wouldn't play poker with him.

Hector is the one I'd trust to babysit, or keep an eye on my house. He's such a perfect example of ????? and Lawful Goodity he was considered one of the ideal chivalrous men in the Middle Ages, despite being a pagan.

Okay, put it this way. You have to cross the fearsome river Ocean with one and only one of them. Poseidon is already pissed at you both. Whom do you choose as travelling companion?

But I will reluctanctly agree that Hector was a fine fellow and the one I'd want to share a foxhole with.

[Orual]

Okay, put it this way. You have to cross the fearsome river Ocean with one and only one of them. Poseidon is already pissed at you both. Whom do you choose as travelling companion?

At first blush, of course I would say Odysseus. He is resourceful and quick-witted, daring without being reckless.

Then one recalls that he set off from Ithaca with 12 ships (carrying 600 men), and all he brought back was his own sorry carcass.

And now my brain is going off on a tangent - how would Hector have dealt with cyclopes, witches, sea-monsters and the like?

But I will reluctanctly agree that Hector was a fine fellow and the one I'd want to share a foxhole with.

I admit to a certain amount of bias due to the fact that the scene with him, Andromache, and their baby is my very favorite in all of the Iliad. It's one of the few thing's I've read in Ancient Greek that made me cry for reasons unrelated to translation difficulties.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Okay, put it this way. You have to cross the fearsome river Ocean with one and only one of them. Poseidon is already pissed at you both. Whom do you choose as travelling companion?

At first blush, of course I would say Odysseus. He is resourceful and quick-witted, daring without being reckless.

Then one recalls that he set off from Ithaca with 12 ships (carrying 600 men), and all he brought back was his own sorry carcass.

Not his fault. Really. 'Cept for the bit at the end of the Cyclops interlude, when Odysseus' men get killed they generally bring it upon themselves. That said, I'd only travel with him if Poseidon was already made at me anyway.

[Orual]

[quote=Skald the Rhymer]

Okay, put it this way. You have to cross the fearsome river Ocean with one and only one of them. Poseidon is already pissed at you both. Whom do you choose as travelling companion?

At first blush, of course I would say Odysseus. He is resourceful and quick-witted, daring without being reckless.

Then one recalls that he set off from Ithaca with 12 ships (carrying 600 men), and all he brought back was his own sorry carcass.

Not his fault. Really. 'Cept for the bit at the end of the Cyclops interlude, when Odysseus' men get killed they generally bring it upon themselves. That said, I'd only travel with him if Poseidon was already made at me anyway.[/quote:1jea5t5w]

... and now I'm picturing Odysseus-as-Lando-Calrissian: "It's not my fault!"

[Orual]

So, which significant figure from the Trojan War would you like to call up from the mists on non-existence just so you can have the pleasure of kicking him in the goolies?

I would have a very hard time choosing between Achilles and Paris ...