Ask the person who pays her maid $140 a month

[Hatshepsut]

It's true. We have two maids, a driver, and two guards, because that's just how it is done in Indonesia. I learned a long time ago "do not talk about your staff when you are back in America," because people have no idea of the real circumstances, and they will back away from you in horror and disdain, certain you are the personification of evil.

However, on the rare occasion when I've actually discussed the facts of with people who are open-minded enough to learn what's really going on, they end up seeing that we're actually doing a good thing.

So. Each of the people who works as a domestic employee at my house is on site roughly 12 hours/day. Pay varies based on their position (the driver makes the highest base salary) and overtime, but at the moment they earn between $140 and $250/month.

Ask anything you like, and feel free to attack me as a vile oppressor of the downtrodden masses. I'm used to it.

[OtakuLoki]

Why would we attack you as a vile oppressor? Well, other than that I imagine you're paying a salary that's still a bit inflationary.

So that's my first question: What is the average salary for those positions in your area?

[Exy]

I at least am perfectly aware that having servants is normal in most of the developing world, even if you are middle class.

Anyway, I guess I can imagine why you'd need guards, but why do you have two maids? Is it just out of a charitable desire to provide two people with a job, or do you have that much work for them to do?

[Glazer]

How dare you ! I can't believe that you would provide jobs for people so that they can feed there families.

When I was stationed in Korea There was a man who for $25.00 a month would:
Make my bed, clean my room, wash my clothes and polish my boots every day;
Mop and wax my room every week.
And for an additional $10.00 a month he would take care of my share of the common areas. Since his cleaning of the common areas benefited everyone, anyone who didn't pay for this service had to clean on the weekends.
He took care of about 10 rooms with 3 men in a room. Banking him about $900.00 a month. Well above the average income at that time. A Private in the Korean Army made less than $10.00 a month.( That is not a typo, less than $10.00 a month.)
This was back in the mid 80's.


So my question to you Miss Oppressor :smile: is how does they're pay stack up to the average workers pay?

[Hatshepsut]

What is the average salary for those positions in your area?

The short answer is that our pay is about average, and is also about the amount that the Indonesian government has defined as minimum wage for the Jakarta area. (No one expects maid pay to meet official government standards, however.)

A longer answer is that we pay quite well, because there are two markets operating side-by-side: the demand by middle and upper-class Indonesian staff, and the demand by foreigners. Foreigners tend to offer better working conditions and pay much higher wages (when I say our pay is average, I mean it is average for foreigners; this has been confirmed by an extensive salary survey recently conducted by Colliers).

Foreigners pay their maids more than Indonesians for two reasons: first, we have to: everyone believes (and they are largely correct by local standards) that we are filthy rich and are soft touches. This perception/reality is the main driver. But in addition, it is generally true that in order to be a successful maid for a foreigner you need special skills: how to set the table Western-style, how to use a washer and dryer, and often at least some English.

Looked at in that light, our staff are unusually well paid, because we hired them despite the fact they did not have the skills to work for foreigners. One had a meagre 4 months experience as a junior maid with a foreign family, the other had zero experience. Neither one speaks a word of English. So they are very lucky to have jobs with foreigners and would not have commanded the wages we are paying them if not for the lucky accident of being hired by us. (They are relatives of the wonderful lady who was our son's nanny many years ago, in case you're wondering how that happened.)

Oops. I'm sneaking a few moments break from work, but I've got incoming email to deal with. I'll answer other questions later.

[Hatshepsut]

Anyway, I guess I can imagine why you'd need guards, but why do you have two maids? Is it just out of a charitable desire to provide two people with a job, or do you have that much work for them to do?

Depending on what you are thinking, you may be wrong in your idea of why we need guards. Although robberies are not unheard of and it pays to take common sense precautions here just as does anywhere in the world, we're not really worried about theft. We have guards because (a) the day guard came with the house - he has a 14-year relationship with our landlord, so it wasn't an option not to hire him when we selected our house; (b) guards (especially ours because he's stayed with our house for so long) usually do double-duty as gardeners/pool cleaners/general handymen; (c) the REAL function of the guard is to open the gate so our car can get in and out; he also screens random people such as door-to-door salesmen we don't want to be bothered with; and (d) it would be stingy not to have guards, since we can afford to and are giving honest employment to people who need it.

As to why we have two maids, you are pretty much right correct with both your speculations: yes, we want to create jobs, and yeah, our house is obscenely large. One maid would be enough (you can get a lot of cleaning done if that's your full-time job), but it would be tiring and I would feel guilty if I wanted to be picky ("don't forget to dust here under the bed where no one ever looks!"). With two, I feel free to ask for a high standard of cleanliness and not worry that I'm being unfairly demanding.

[Exy]

Depending on what you are thinking, you may be wrong in your idea of why we need guards. Although robberies are not unheard of and it pays to take common sense precautions here just as does anywhere in the world, we're not really worried about theft.

Oh, okay. I hadn't thought of Indonesia as a particularly dangerous place until you said you had two guards.

[Eleanor of Aquitaine]

Thanks for the thread, CairoCarol, it's really interesting.

None of the staff lives with you? How far from your house do they live?

Do you do your own shopping and cooking, or do the maids do it?

Do you think you're living in luxury, more so than you would be in the US? I'm assuming you're from the US and moved to Indonesia as an adult, please correct me if that's wrong.

[OneCentStamp]

Do you have any feel for what kind of lifestyle your $140 per month affords her? Does she live in a tin or cane shack with no running water, for example, or does she live above the average standard of living due to your largesse? Does she live near you, or is it a long commute to come to work? Have you ever seen where she lives?

BTW, none of this is meant to be accusatory or snarky. I'm legitimately curious. :smile:

[Truth and Beauty]

Is the salary you earn comparable to a salary you would earn if you lived in a first world country? If so, wouldn't you feel that you need to pay your maid the same that you would pay a made in a first world country?

[Orual]

Does your kid still have chores if the maids are doing most of the cleaning?

[Hatshepsut]

None of the staff lives with you? How far from your house do they live?

Do you do your own shopping and cooking, or do the maids do it?

Do you think you're living in luxury, more so than you would be in the US? I'm assuming you're from the US and moved to Indonesia as an adult, please correct me if that's wrong.

Live-in staff used to be the norm, but this is becoming less common (although I think nannies who care for babies and toddlers probably often still live in). In our case, one maid lived out and one lived in, until the live-in got married. Now they both live out. As a rule, some staff want to live in and some want to live out, and likewise employers have a preference. So it is usually possible to find a match that pleases both employer and employee.

Distance from our house to the homes of our staff varies wildly. One guy lives right down the street and can walk home if 5 minutes. The guy who lives farthest away, our driver, is about 30-40 minutes away by motorbike.

I do my own shopping and cooking. While I could hire a cook (who would shop for me) and in fact many people do, I'm too fond of cooking myself to let another person take over that responsibility.

The "luxury" question is a mixed bag. Probably the nicest thing is that we don't have to clean, wash dishes, or do laundry. Also, our house is huge and has its own pool - far larger and nicer than the house I own in the US. On the other hand, the air quality here is crappy, I have to pay about $15 for a box of Kellogg's cereal - if I can even get it, which of late we cannot - and it is normal to spend 2-3 hours/day in the car commuting. I'm thousands of miles away from my family. Although the health care in Singapore is world class, so our non-emergency medical care is fine, if we should be in an accident requiring emergency medical treatment, our likelihood of dying is far greater than if we lived in the US. Another significant factor for most expatriates is that they speak little to none of the local language, which increases the frustration of daily living by a lot. (I happen to speak Indonesian fairly well, but unlike most people here, I spent a year of intensive language training in which I did nothing but practice Indonesian. Few foreigners have that opportunity.) We're also exposed to dengue and to a lesser extent to malaria - I know a lot of people who've had dengue, and one of the strains can be quite deadly.

So it's up to the individual to assess whether life here is luxurious. To me, it's extremely luxurious, but some people are quite distressed. I think that once they get through the adjustment period, most foreigners end up very happy here.

More later ... thanks for the interest, everybody.

[Hatshepsut]

Do you have any feel for what kind of lifestyle your $140 per month affords her? Does she live in a tin or cane shack with no running water, for example, or does she live above the average standard of living due to your largesse? Does she live near you, or is it a long commute to come to work? Have you ever seen where she lives?

BTW, none of this is meant to be accusatory or snarky. I'm legitimately curious. :smile:

No snarkiness taken, and even if there was some, as I say, I'm used to it.

I do have a pretty good feel for what kind of living quarters our staff have. Neighborhoods in Indonesia are very mixed, with rich and poor living right next to each other. We take long walks fairly often through the kampung areas and see exactly the kind of housing they live in, although to my knowledge I have never seen the homes of my own household staff (it's a big city, so it's highly unlikely). Running water, electricity, a house with windows and sturdy painted walls and a good roof - yes, they have these things. They are poor, but the poverty is expressed less in terms of being unable to meet fundamental needs for food, clothing and shelter, and more in lack of access to first world health care and education, and lack of opportunity to become significantly more well off than they are now.

I addressed the distance question above. Related to that, I think the families of each of our staff own at least one motorcycle (and our driver just upgraded to a snazzy lime-green model). This is a sign of economic stability and shows that they are not desperately poor. Motorbikes also allow quick transportation throughout the city, since they can weave in and out of traffic while our big clunky cars are stuck in place.

Also, they all have cell phones. Although they keep the volume turned down, I hear them beeping all the time.

[Hatshepsut]

Is the salary you earn comparable to a salary you would earn if you lived in a first world country? If so, wouldn't you feel that you need to pay your maid the same that you would pay a made in a first world country?

For several jobs I have held abroad, I made less than I would in the US, because I'm what is known as a "trailing spouse" and it is therefore understood that I can be hired on the cheap. Even now, although my salary is (I suppose, I don't really know) comparable to a US wage, I get no benefits of any kind. This is supply and demand at work. I accept the concept and recognize that it doesn't always work in favor of my pocketbook.

However, my husband receives a salary/benefit package that is roughly comparable to what he'd get in the US, so let's say that our household is making a first-world income.

Do I feel that this means I need to pay my maid what I'd pay a maid in America? No, why would it? My staff get paid a wage that allows them to meet their basic needs IN JAKARTA, according to official cost-of-living surveys carried out the government. For menial labor, that seems okay to me.

Now, it is true that *my* salary (and my husband's) is more than what it takes to meet my "basic needs" in Jakarta on a day-to-day basis. But that doesn't take into consideration that:

a) We both have advanced degrees and do specialized work. Almost anyone can do the job of a maid; few people can do our work and fewer still are willing to bounce around the world to do it. The price the market is willing to pay is in part a reflection of that.

b) My staff don't spend thousands of dollars a year in airfare to visit their parents. I have to.

c) The children of my staff go to public school (which is not free, unfortunately, but isn't too expensive). I couldn't send my son to public school here even if I wanted to; it would be against the law. He has no choice but to go to a private school to the tune of $15k to $20k per year.

d) I will presumably retire to the US and will have to rely on my own savings to survive after I stop working. It will cost much more to be a retired person in the US than in Indonesia.

Also, I could not afford to hire staff if I had to pay them US wages. We make good money, but not THAT much money. The people who work for me are delighted to do so at the wages I can afford to pay; they get greater economic security and I get a clean house. Win-win!

[Hatshepsut]

Does your kid still have chores if the maids are doing most of the cleaning?

Sorry for all these separate posts. I'm padding my post count! No actually, I'm just passing by the computer from time to time and writing something between household tasks.

It's funny you should ask that, because I've just been dealing with the fact that this is one of the huge downsides of having maids. We recently told our one maid (the other is gone on maternity leave): do not do dishes, laundry, or make beds - we will do those as a family.

Our reason, of course, is to teach our son some responsibility. He's been very good about setting the table, helping with laundry, and drying and putting away dishes. He doesn't remember to do these thing automatically, but helps out cheerfully without complaint when directed.

But, I *CANNOT* get the maid to stop making my son's bed. I want her to leave his bed untouched, and if he comes home from school and sees his bed is unmade ... well, that will just remind him that he forgot to do it. But the maid, in direct contravention of our orders, continues to make his bed. I have told her REPEATEDLY to stop, and even had my husband's office manager call her and explain to her that our son will never learn responsibility if he doesn't do his own chores.

So today I was in my son's room and noticed that the bed looked GREAT. I asked my son if he had made his bed, and of course he had not, she did it. So I really yelled at the maid and told her that if she makes his bed one more time, she's fired.

Gahhhhh. It makes me ill. I cannot stand to yell at someone, but nothing is getting through to this woman. She'd be fired by now if she weren't related to my son's former nanny.

[ivan astikov]

Let her make it, then mess it up again when she's finished(you can wait until she's left the room, or do it in front of her and see if that sinks in.). Pull son when he gets home and ask why he hasn't made his bed. Deduct x from pocket money. Stop bawling at maid, who just can't get beyond her conscientious work-ethic.

[Hatshepsut]

Let her make it, then mess it up again when she's finished(you can wait until she's left the room, or do it in front of her and see if that sinks in.). Pull son when he gets home and ask why he hasn't made his bed. Deduct x from pocket money. Stop bawling at maid, who just can't get beyond her conscientious work-ethic.

Are you SERIOUS?

Look, when an employer tells an employee, in clear language, what to do, on six or seven occasions, and the employee refuses to do it, you think the employer should "stop bawling"?

A "conscientious work ethnic" involves doing what you've been asked, nicely, to do, especially when the reason WHY has been explained to you. My language skills may not be up to the task, but we've had an Indonesian explain it to her as well.

And I'm certainly not going to lurk around my son's room all day, just waiting for her to make the bed so I can unmake it in front of her (which isn't much different from "bawling" at her).

As to pulling son aside and asking him why he hasn't made his bed ... what makes you think we aren't?

But you were joking, right? :smile:

[Truth and Beauty]

However, my husband receives a salary/benefit package that is roughly comparable to what he'd get in the US, so let's say that our household is making a first-world income.

Do I feel that this means I need to pay my maid what I'd pay a maid in America? No, why would it?

Because it would be fair?

My staff don't spend thousands of dollars a year in airfare to visit their parents. I have to.

You don't have to. And I'm sure your staff has expenses that, in proportion to their salary, are just as much as your travel.

I could not afford to hire staff if I had to pay them US wages.

I'm sorry, but this sounds to me like you're taking advantage of people's poverty to have them do menial tasks that they wouldn't accept to do for the same salary in the US. The fact that they are happy to work for very low wages doesn't really enter into it - given enough poverty people will do almost anything for a loaf of bread. I think it would be more ethical to pay them what you would be paying them in the US, since you earn a US salary - if you can't afford it, do what you would do in the US: clean your house yourself. This is IMHO and of course YMMV.

[Sarahfeena]

The cost of living is different in Indonesia. As long as the salary is enough so that the maids have a decent standard of living, I don't think there's an ethical problem. Maids here don't live like kings, either, but it doesn't mean they aren't happy to be employed.

It reminds me of a boss I had once...he had small regional offices all over the country, and if the manager of the office in, say, Kansas City, complained that the manger of the office in San Francisco made more money than her, he would say, "you have the same standard of living," because the cost of living in San Fran is so much higher. In cases like this, the actual dollar amount doesn't tell the whole story.

In a way I kind of appreciate the attitude that Carol mentions, that if you don't hire staff you are considered stingy. I work in an affluent suburb, and during this current economic crisis, I heard a lot of talk that people were "embarrassed" or thought it "didn't look right" to be seen spending money on luxuries like their cleaning ladies. I kept thinking, fuck embarrassment...your cleaning lady is trying to earn a living, too! If you can afford to keep her on, it's wrong not to because you're afraid it's not the thing to do anymore.

[Diana]

Generally, one is paid according to the cost of living of where they actually live. Maids in Boise make less than maids in NYC. Nothing unethical about it.

[Sarahfeena]

Thanks for putting that in a much more pithy and cogent manner than I did, Diana!

[Diana]

Heh. Sarahfeena, your post wasn't there when I started typing. I was actually typing up a bit of a treatise comparing the ethics of paying the going rate to maids vs. child prostitutes, but I decided it wasn't appropriate for this forum.

[Sarahfeena]

Heh. Sarahfeena, your post wasn't there when I started typing. I was actually typing up a bit of a treatise comparing the ethics of paying the going rate to maids vs. child prostitutes, but I decided it wasn't appropriate for this forum.

[Hatshepsut]

Hmm, I'm not sure I have anything new to say, but Truth & Beauty's attitude rankles even though I know there is nothing I can do about it.

Let me just tell a story about hiring staff at local wages several years ago:

By coincidence, the project my husband was working for closed right around September 11, 2001. This (the end of the project, not the attacks) threw a lot of clerks and drivers out of work - people we had known for years. Suddenly, they'd gone from well-paid to struggling to feed their families.

When the US started bombing Afghanistan, there were a few protests in Jakarta - not too much, but a lot of Americans felt uneasy about their safety and the US Embassy was telling people to consider leaving. We didn't feel unsafe, but we used it as an excuse to hire 3-4 extra guards from among the unemployed staff. It was nice to be in a position to help - we gave a much-needed economic boost to deserving people, while allowing them to keep their pride because it wasn't a hand-out, it was helping us.

According to T&B, I shouldn't have done that, since I couldn't afford to pay them US wages. Oh well. My mileage DOES vary.

[Zuul]

I wouldn't worry about what T&B says, CairoCarol. Seriously. Helping one person by giving them a US wage (which would be exceedingly decadent, I take it?) doesn't nearly do the same good as helping the five employees you have now.

[Sarahfeena]

My question is this: is it hard to get used to all the help at home? It seems like it would be strange to have so many people in and around the house, working around me.

[Orual]

My question is this: is it hard to get used to all the help at home? It seems like it would be strange to have so many people in and around the house, working around me.

I second this question. Does it make you feel all decadent? Do you ever get the urge to refer to yourself as the 'Lady of the Manor'?

Do you think the staff gossips about you? Do you ever wonder what their impressions of you are?

[Hatshepsut]

Just popping in (at 5 am, yawn) to say that I'm not abandoning this thread and will answer as soon as I can - the time difference between Jakarta and the majority of posters combined with the fact I'm going to be out all day hiking followed by a friend's 50th birthday bash tonight will probably make it look like I've disappeared. But I'll be back in 28 hours or so.

[Exy]

Carol, I've read your threads here and at the other place, and I know you lived in Cairo (obviously ) but also all sorts of other exotic places. What's the situation? Are you and your husband international jewel thieves?

[SugarPlum]

a) We both have advanced degrees and do specialized work. Almost anyone can do the job of a maid; few people can do our work and fewer still are willing to bounce around the world to do it. The price the market is willing to pay is in part a reflection of that.

Are you and your husband international jewel thieves?

huh.

It's all coming together now...




Carol, I don't really have anything to add to your thread, but I wanted to thank you for posting. It's been interesting to think about!

[Hatshepsut]

My question is this: is it hard to get used to all the help at home? It seems like it would be strange to have so many people in and around the house, working around me.

Yes and no.

The yes part: It is very strange at first, and in fact the extent to which people who are having staff for the first time freak out is a good overall measure of flexibility. When we were newcomers, it felt extremely awkward, but we were counseled by everyone to relax and adjust, so we did. The way I framed it mentally was "well, if you were in a nice hotel, and passed the maid wheeling her cart down the hall, or you were eating in a restaurant and the busboy cleaned off the table near you, it wouldn't feel odd, so try to think of it like that."

Occasionally people (usually young couples living abroad for the first time) gasp in horror at the thought of people in their house and complain extensively that they cannot get used to it. We have found that this is a good predictor of whether they'll adjust in a general sense. There are so many ways that living in a vastly different culture calls for flexibility - if they can't even handle the idea of someone walking through the house with a basket of laundry, probably lots of things will make their heads explode.

The no part: you don't generally run into your staff all that much, especially if you have a predictable schedule. They'll clean while you're at work or otherwise out of the house, and retreat to the staff quarters while you are home. Other than saying "hello" in the morning, I rarely see my maids.

Does it make you feel all decadent? Do you ever get the urge to refer to yourself as the 'Lady of the Manor'?

Do you think the staff gossips about you? Do you ever wonder what their impressions of you are?

Oh, I'm sure they do gossip about us. But we're included in the gossip circle - our driver talks to us about the other staff. So we don't feel left out. Here's a typical example of what we learned from our driver: our maid who just got married isn't very strong, and everyone encouraged her to wait a bit before getting pregnant, including her husband, who wanted her to see a doctor and make sure she was fit enough. But she wanted to get pregnant immediately. Which she did, causing much shaking of heads and tsk-tsking.

At first did feel decadent, or at least odd, to have staff, but now I'm used to it. I don't mind when I'm back at my (thankfully much smaller) house in the US and have to do my own cleaning, however.

Carol, I've read your threads here and at the other place, and I know you lived in Cairo (obviously ) but also all sorts of other exotic places. What's the situation? Are you and your husband international jewel thieves?

We're not jewel thieves, silly, we're CIA, here to tamper with the local government. Actually, we work in "development" - a catchall term that refers to the initiatives and programs, usually funded by donor countries (for example, Sweden, Canada, Germany, the EU, and Japan all have large aid agencies) to assist developing countries to bring their economic and social well-being up to first-world standards. These programs run the gamut from micro-finance to water sanitation to education to environmental standards to food safety to ... well, you get the idea.

By the way, studies show that Americans have a very inaccurate perception of how much aid the US provides, both when measured in as a percentage of US GDP and when measured against how much aid other nations provide in relation to their GDP. While in absolute dollars the US is a large donor, compared to the size of their economies many other nations are far more generous in their expenditures for global poverty alleviation and related work.

Some personal details for the truly bored or curious: My husband is a trade economist, and although in recent years his work has been largely managing projects, he's happiest when advising government departments (such as a ministry of finance or trade & industry) on what kinds of policies will promote the economic well-being of citizens. I am a writer and editor "specializing in policy initiatives in developing countries" as my grossly out-of-date website puts it. Over the past five years or so I've worked primarily on competitiveness issues and at the moment I edit a small journal on the topic of Indonesian competitiveness. My job ends soon, however, and if all goes well I'll be working for an Australian-funded project on infrastructure development next.

Incidentally, the irony of living quite well while trying to help poor people is not lost on anyone in the development world. It's the topic of many self-disparaging jokes.

[Truth and Beauty]

Generally, one is paid according to the cost of living of where they actually live.

Well, actually, in this case, CairoCarol and her husband are not geing paid according to the cost of living of where they actually live. [Seinfeld]Not that there's anything wrong with that![/seinfeld]

I was actually typing up a bit of a treatise comparing the ethics of paying the going rate to maids vs. child prostitutes

I don't think that CairoCarol's maids would be flattered to being compared to prostitutes, and frankly I find your comment oddly out of place here , but in any case, even sex workers who are underpaid get a raw deal.

[Truth and Beauty]

Hmm, I'm not sure I have anything new to say, but Truth & Beauty's attitude rankles even though I know there is nothing I can do about it.

About my attitude, or about how you live in Indonesia?

Let me just tell a story about hiring staff at local wages several years ago ...

OK, I didn't realize that you hire maids and security guards, not because you need them to do work for you, but because you are trying to redistribute the wealth.

May I suggest you can do that without hiring people to do work at low cost for you - you can just give to a charity, an orphanage, a group that does medical care for poor people, or whatnot. Of course, if you do that, you don't get the benefit of people actually doing chores for you.

But as you said, your mileage does vary.

[Hatshepsut]

And I'm sure your staff has expenses that, in proportion to their salary, are just as much as your travel..

Bolding mine.

But according to you, proportionality has nothing to do with it.

[Truth and Beauty]

But according to you, proportionality has nothing to do with it.

I'm not sure how this ties in with your defense. Your argument for underpaying your maids comes from the fact that you have expensive air travel each month. My argument for paying them more is that they have expenses too.

[Hatshepsut]

If you don't think "proportionality" matters, why did you bring it up?

I'm paying my staff what is considered to be a fair wage given what it costs them to live in Jakarta - a wage that also reflects the skill level needed to be a maid.

I am paid what is considered to be a fair wage given what it costs ME to live in Jakarta as a foreigner (which, given that I have expenses for items such as international travel and schooling that are associated with my status as a foreigner, is much higher). Also, I get a premium because my skills are relatively scarce, called for substantial and expensive education and experience to acquire, and require that I take steps the majority of people are not willing to take.

I contribute generously to charity every month, but don't see how giving people honest employment, at wages that meet their needs and that they are happy to accept (and which sets them up to obtain jobs in the future after I leave the country), is morally inferior to handing money to an orphanage.

[ulfhjorr]

Dude, she's not underpaying them. She is paying the average rate for maids working for foreign families, which is higher than the average for those working for domestic families. She's also stated that these people were underqualified for the position, so she is, in fact, overpaying them.

[vison]

But according to you, proportionality has nothing to do with it.

I'm not sure how this ties in with your defense. Your argument for underpaying your maids comes from the fact that you have expensive air travel each month. My argument for paying them more is that they have expenses too.

Defense? Defense of what? CairoCarol doesn't have to defend herself from the vague accusation that she's doing something wrong by paying the going rate for help in Jakarta. Chances are she pays more than Indonesians who hire people to do the same work. When rich Westerners go abroad, it behooves them (like that word, behooves) them to check around and see how things are done locally. Often, they don't. Causes trouble every time.

[Sarahfeena]

My question is this: is it hard to get used to all the help at home? It seems like it would be strange to have so many people in and around the house, working around me.

Yes and no.

The yes part: It is very strange at first, and in fact the extent to which people who are having staff for the first time freak out is a good overall measure of flexibility. When we were newcomers, it felt extremely awkward, but we were counseled by everyone to relax and adjust, so we did. The way I framed it mentally was "well, if you were in a nice hotel, and passed the maid wheeling her cart down the hall, or you were eating in a restaurant and the busboy cleaned off the table near you, it wouldn't feel odd, so try to think of it like that."

Occasionally people (usually young couples living abroad for the first time) gasp in horror at the thought of people in their house and complain extensively that they cannot get used to it. We have found that this is a good predictor of whether they'll adjust in a general sense. There are so many ways that living in a vastly different culture calls for flexibility - if they can't even handle the idea of someone walking through the house with a basket of laundry, probably lots of things will make their heads explode.

The no part: you don't generally run into your staff all that much, especially if you have a predictable schedule. They'll clean while you're at work or otherwise out of the house, and retreat to the staff quarters while you are home. Other than saying "hello" in the morning, I rarely see my maids.

Thanks for your answer...it seems so odd to me, to have so many people around the house. But you are totally right that being flexible is the key in a foriegn culture.

Where I work, many people have all kinds of household help, from a twice-weekly maid to live-in nannies. Even that seems strange to get used to! But as I said before, I think we need to get away from the idea that it's inherently problematic from a moral standpoint to have someone clean up after you. As long as you are a good employer and don't go out of your way to make their jobs harder, it's a GOOD thing that people use their spare money to create jobs.

[Zuul]

But according to you, proportionality has nothing to do with it.

I'm not sure how this ties in with your defense. Your argument for underpaying your maids comes from the fact that you have expensive air travel each month. My argument for paying them more is that they have expenses too.

[modhat:1i2zowr8]While tangentially related to this topic, debating the fair payment for domestic servants is not the purpose of this thread. If you wish to further that debate, please start another thread and allow the questions in this one to continue.[/modhat:1i2zowr8]

[Eleanor of Aquitaine]

I don't agree with Truth & Beauty, but I think his arguments are within the scope of this thread. CairoCarol specifically invited such a debate in her OP, e.g. "feel free to attack me as a vile oppressor of the downtrodden masses".

[Hatshepsut]

Yes, Thanks for trying to help, but it's quite alright Caerie - I have no objection to T&B continuing to post along the lines he's been pursuing and I believe he is well within the scope of this thread.

[Glazer]

Truth & Beauty look around you. How many average to middle class households in America have two maids a driver and two guards? Damn few, and why? Because no one can afford domestic help at American labor rates except the very rich. If Carol as you suggest paid at American rates she would not have any domestic help either. That would be five people out of work. Not feeding they're families. Not sending they're kids to school. And not spending they're money in the local economy.

Even if Carol gave the same amount that she now pays her staff to charity instead. It would not do as much good as giving people jobs, self-respect and a chance for they're kids to have a better life then themselves. Jobs put more money into the economy than charity which has overhead.

Not hiring staff would not endear her to the locals, she would most likely be seen as selfish. And it would not help America by having locals get to know Carol's family and see who we are as people.

[Hatshepsut]

And not spending they're money in the local economy.

This is a good point, particularly from the Indonesian perspective. The money we spend on local staff is a source of foreign exchange - it's taking money from a developed country and getting it circulating in the local Indonesian economy very effectively. (Of course, that's sort of a geeky observation, but that's what comes of being married to a trade economist.)

[Truth and Beauty]

Dear Eleanor of Aquitaine and CairoCarol - thank you for your understanding. It seemed pretty clear to me that my posts were not out of line either. For The Record CairoCarol I don't think you're an evil person, I just wanted to present another point of view.

But I think it's best that I bow out of the discussion now. I've been told via e-mail that the moderators are looking for an excuse to bounce me and I don't want to get banned from here. Caerie's comment in here is a pretty clear sign - I've seen several of my threads get hijacked with mods participating in the hijack and no staff member has ever said anything about it. I need to be careful. The same friend that e-mailed me has told me that the moderators are organizing an IM campaign where they ask people to IM all the posters on the board telling them not to talk to me anymore. That makes me said.

Glazer: for the above reasons I will not answer your post, which does raise some excellent points.

[SBSO2]

Good. We shouldn't allow potential rapists on this board.

[Hatshepsut]

Good. We shouldn't allow potential rapists on this board.

We're all "potential" something, aren't we? But having that discussion here WOULD be a highjack, so I'm not going there in this thread.

But I will observe that nothing Truth & Beauty has stated in this thread has struck me as inappropriate in any way (without solid intellectual foundation or any understanding of economics, yes, but not inappropriate ). It's an open question question at best as to whether T&B has a heartfelt belief in what he says and sees himself as protecting the interests of the downtrodden masses, or whether he simply enjoys playing devil's advocate in order to generate a bit of entertaining sparring on a topic that people feel strongly about. I lean heavily toward the latter view, but who cares? He WAS on topic and he presented a point of view that a significant number of people in the real world hold. I appreciate the added content, and a little message board bickering is good for the soul.

[sublight]

Good. We shouldn't allow potential rapists on this board.

[modhat:2o8a9x7t]SBSO, if you have a problem with a particular poster, either report the behavior you think is out of line or take it to the Dome. You've already started a thread there regarding T&B, so please keep this discussion separate from that one.[/modhat:2o8a9x7t]

And as an aside, everyone on this board is a "potential rapist."

[vison]

Good. We shouldn't allow potential rapists on this board.

[modhat:1u2576h8]SBSO, if you have a problem with a particular poster, either report the behavior you think is out of line or take it to the Dome. You've already started a thread there regarding T&B, so please keep this discussion separate from that one.[/modhat:1u2576h8]

And as an aside, everyone on this board is a "potential rapist."

In what sense of the word "potential"?

[Fink-Nottle]

First I want to say thanks for starting this thread, it's very interesting. And this is off topic but you posted the below comment and I wanted to respond to it. While it is true that the US government gives less in foreign aid when compared percentagewise to other developed nations, US citizens privately give far, far more money than other citizens of developed nations. I don't know if the private donations put us more on level with the percentages other nations give (I don't have too much time to research all of this). But if you compare government vs. private, the US government gave $900 million in relief fund to the Asian tsunami in '04, US citizens donated $2 billion. And in 2005 the US government gave $20 billion in foreign aid while US citizens gave $260 billion to charities (I couldn't find anything that broke it out by domestic vs. foreign). I just want to clarify that Americans are not stingy or ungenerous. I think that we, unlike other countries, just prefer to do our giving voluntarily and not through taxes.

By the way, studies show that Americans have a very inaccurate perception of how much aid the US provides, both when measured in as a percentage of US GDP and when measured against how much aid other nations provide in relation to their GDP. While in absolute dollars the US is a large donor, compared to the size of their economies many other nations are far more generous in their expenditures for global poverty alleviation and related work.