the most beautiful poem ever written

[Truth and Beauty]

A ciascun'alma presa e gentil core
nel cui cospetto ven lo dir presente,
in ciò che mi rescrivan suo parvente,
salute in lor segnor, cioè Amore.

Già eran quasi che atterzate l'ore
del tempo che onne s tella n'è lucente,
quando m'apparve Amor subitamente,
cui essenza membrar mi dà orrore.

Allegro mi sembrava Amor tenendo
meo core in mano, e ne le braccia avea
madonna involta in un drappo dormendo.

Poi la svegliava, e d'esto core ardendo
lei paventosa umilmente pascea:
appresso gir lo ne vedea piangendo.

Discuss.

[Baldwin]

"Petrarchan" sonnet . . . it's actually Dante, writing in Florentine, isn't it? I'm sure it sounds beautiful, but I'll have to rely on a translation, which isn't the same.

ETA: There'll probably be some Guillaume de Machaut fanatic in here in no time . . . .

[Truth and Beauty]

And a cigar to the man with L33T Google skillz! Yes, Dante. A translation would only be a poor imitation. Trust me, it's beautiful.

[BiblioCat]

You might get more responses if you posted the poem in English. I understand that something will be lost in translation, but this is mainly an English-speaking board.

[OneCentStamp]

You might get more responses if you posted the poem in English.

This presupposes that responses are what he wants. Judging by history, what he wants is to annoy everyone here as badly as possible without breaking any rules. Since the SDMB had an English-only rule, and this board doesn't, what we get are threads like this one and the Confucius thread.

"I'm not touching you! I'm not touching you!" [/hand an inch from your face]

[tunaman]

I know it's a bit sophomoric and turgid, but an ex of mine loved this poem, and it's stuck with me ever since. As an added bonus, it's in English!

Ad Finem

On the white throat of useless passion
That scorched my soul with its burning breath
I clutched my hands in murderous fashion,
And held them close in a grip of death;
For why should I fan, or feed with fuel,
A love that showed me but blank despair ?
So my hold was firm, and my grasp was cruel -
I meant to strangle it then and there!

I thought it was dead. But with no warning,
It rose from its grave last night, and came
And stood by my bed til the early morning
And over and over it spoke your name.
Its throat was red where my hands had held it;
It burned my brow with its scorching breath;
And I knew the moment my eyes beheld it,
"A love like this can know no death."

For just one kiss that your lips have given
In the lost and beautiful past to me,
I would gladly barter my hopes of Heaven
And all the bliss of Eternity.
For never a joy are the angels keeping,
To lay at my feet in Paradise,
Like that into your strong arms creeping,
And looking into your love-lit eyes.

I know, in the way that sins are reckoned,
This thought is a sin of the deepest dye ;
But I know too if an angel beckoned,
Standing close by the Throne on High,
And you, adown by the gates infernal,
Should open your loving arms and smile,
I would turn my back on things supernal,
To lay on your breast a little while.

To know for an hour you where mine completely -
Mine in body and soul, my own -
I would bear unending tortures sweetly,
With not a murmur and not a moan.
A lighter sin or lesser error
Might change through hope or fear divine;
But there is no fear, and hell has no terror,
To change or alter a love like mine.

[Baldwin]

And a cigar to the man with L33T Google skillz! Yes, Dante. A translation would only be a poor imitation. Trust me, it's beautiful.

If by "L33T" Google skillz", you mean that I've gained some familiarity with Dante during my 30 years of interest in medieval history, that's correct.

Useless troll.

[Zsofia]

Is there a translation that isn't forced rhyme? Those are always kinda grody.

The ugliest poem thread is funnier.

[Truth and Beauty]

You might get more responses if you posted the poem in English.

This presupposes that responses are what he wants. Judging by history, what he wants is to annoy everyone here as badly as possible without breaking any rules. Since the SDMB had an English-only rule, and this board doesn't, what we get are threads like this one and the Confucius thread.

For some reason, I was thinking that this board was more relaxed than the SDMB, and that the lack of rules meant that, y'know, we could maybe take advantage of the greater freedom here. But if the rules are "we don't have the same rules as the Dope, but you still need to abide by all the Dope's rules, otherwise you're a troll", then why don't you make that the board's mission statement?

But fine, I'm done with this thread. Moderator, please call or banish or move to Room 101 or whatever it is you do here.

[Baldwin]

You might get more responses if you posted the poem in English.

This presupposes that responses are what he wants. Judging by history, what he wants is to annoy everyone here as badly as possible without breaking any rules. Since the SDMB had an English-only rule, and this board doesn't, what we get are threads like this one and the Confucius thread.

For some reason, I was thinking that this board was more relaxed than the SDMB, and that the lack of rules meant that, y'know, we could maybe take advantage of the greater freedom here. But if the rules are "we don't have the same rules as the Dope, but you still need to abide by all the Dope's rules, otherwise you're a troll", then why don't you make that the board's mission statement?

But fine, I'm done with this thread. Moderator, please call or banish or move to Room 101 or whatever it is you do here.

No, you're a troll because you've started several threads with a lie. In the case of this thread and the one about Confucius, your OP was in a foreign language, and my guess is that you hoped nobody would be able to respond, thus (in your mind) making you look ever so smart. When I recognized your OP as Dante, your response was an insult.

Useless troll. At least the ferret is amusing.

[Truth and Beauty]

No, you're a troll because you've started several threads with a lie.

Bite me.

In the case of this thread and the one about Confucius, your OP was in a foreign language, and my guess is that you hoped nobody would be able to respond, thus (in your mind) making you look ever so smart.

Well you're an idiot because your guess is wrong. I was hoping that people might be open to the idea of seeing something in a foreign language. But if you want to reinforce the ugly american stereotype, go right ahead.

When I recognized your OP as Dante, your response was an insult.

Actually it was a joke, but if you want to get all pissed off about it, feel free.

In case you're interested, here's my opinion on you: your supposed interest in medieval studies is just some shit you made up to look smart on a message board, and in reality you read comic books in your spare time. With maybe a side trip to the Ren Faire.

Useless troll. At least the ferret is amusing.

I don't know why you get off starting fights on message boards, but bring it on, internet tough guy!

[Oliveloaf]

I want to be an internet tough guy. Is it expensive?

[OneCentStamp]

But fine, I'm done with this thread.

Liar.

[Zabigail]

Well, seeing something in a foreign language, and also being able to COMPREHEND the meaning are not mutually exclusive! Examples: La Tortura by Shakira or Qué Hiciste by Jennifer Lopez. As a courtesy, you should have provided a translation of the poem so that your readers could appreciate the beauty you were holding up for admiration! Especially since you already (apparently) know the meaning of the words and so can get the most accurate translation. :dub:

[Baldwin]

Well you're an idiot because your guess is wrong. I was hoping that people might be open to the idea of seeing something in a foreign language. But if you want to reinforce the ugly american stereotype, go right ahead.

Well, since I responded to your OP by recognizing the medieval form of the poem, recognizing the 13th-14th century Florentine author, and jokingly suggesting a 14th century French poet to be discussed as well in regards beautiful poetry, wouldn't you say I did my bit to fulfill that hope?

In case you're interested, here's my opinion on you: your supposed interest in medieval studies is just some shit you made up to look smart on a message board, and in reality you read comic books in your spare time. With maybe a side trip to the Ren Faire.

That's not an opinion; it's a supposition. You're mistaken, and not very good at using your words. (Here's a funny coincidence, though: I just read a comic book based on the Battle of Crecy.)

Post reported.

[sublight]

[modhat:3gbmkmv8]Baldwin, Truth and Beauty, and anyone else who wishes to join in, please take the insults to The Thunderdome and keep the lit discussion here.[/modhat:3gbmkmv8]

[Baldwin]

Good idea. Truth and Beauty, tell us why you think this particular sonnet is "the most beautiful poem ever written". (That's assuming that the thread title is not a non sequitur, but rather your description of the untranslated poem you presented without comment.)

I assume you read 700-year-old Florentine well enough to need no translation; I'm not so fortunate. (Though I knew just enough that the line meo core in mano, e ne le braccia avea, besides telling me it was love poetry, reminded me of il Braccio, the condottieri, which reminded me of the Guelphs and Ghibellines earlier, which brought me to Dante in a roundabout way.)

So I had to look up a translation, using my Google skills:

Vita Nuova[/i]]To every loving, gentle-hearted friend,
to whom the present rhyme is soon to go
so that I may their written answer know,
greetings in Love’s own name, their lord, I send.

The third hour of the time was near at end
when every star in heaven is aglow:
‘twas then Love came before me, dreadful so
that my remembrance is with horror rent.

Joyous appeared he in his hand to keep
my very heart, and, lying on his breast,
my lady, veil-enwrapped and full asleep.

But he awakened her, and of my heart,
aflame, he humbly made her, fearful, taste:
I saw him, finally, in tears depart.

For me, it expresses both the universal human truth that passionate love is always troubled, and a historical snapshot of love expressed in a troubled age. If I recall, Dante fought in a war for the right to have the Pope, rather than the Holy Roman Emperor, have influence over Florence; so already we know his world was complicated in ways that it's hard for us to understand now. Can't recall what city he fought against; nor at what point he had to leave Florence, but in any case we have beautiful poetry in a troubled world. I wonder how Dante would have fared a couple of hundred years later, during the Renaissance.

What do you think of the opening stanza, addressing other poets? Do you think it makes the rest of the sonnet insincere, more of a demonstration of poetic skill on the standard subject of personified Love than a real artistic expression of emotion? It kind of feels that way for me, which takes away the emotional import that it'd need to be my personal "most beautiful poem." Maybe it would help if we heard the poem being whispered on the soundtrack while we watch Marcello Mastroianni struggle with his emotions.

I don't know how good the translation is; always tricky with poetry. You'll notice the translator ended with cdc efe instead of cdc cdc. I can only imagine that trying to translate a poem while maintaining the same meter and rhyme scheme isn't easy.

As for my choice -- I don't know. It'd have to be in English. And, the most beautiful poem might not be the poem that affected me the most. For instance, Byron's stuff never got to me, because I never thought he really meant it. The fact is I haven't sat down to read poetry in years, but I'll try to get back with a selection.

Good thread, Truth and Beauty. I'd suggest that if you do any more, you start by (if the subject isn't in English) providing a translation, and then telling us what you think about it, and why. (This isn't Coffee Talk.)

[Baldwin]

I think the OP has abandoned his own thread. We shall have to carry on as best we can.

In technical analytic terms, this probably isn't great poetry, but it got to me (perhaps because of the way John Gielgud recited it):

Bredon Hill[/i] by A E Housman]In summertime on Bredon
The bells they sound so clear;
Round both the shires they ring them
In steeples far and near,
A happy noise to hear.

Here of a Sunday morning
My love and I would lie,
And see the coloured counties,
And hear the larks so high
About us in the sky.

The bells would ring to call her
In valleys miles away:
'Come all to church, good people;
Good people, come and pray.
But here my love would stay.

And I would turn and answer
Among the springing thyme,
'Oh, peal upon our wedding,
And we will hear the chime,
And come to church in time.

But when the snows at Christmas
On Bredon top were strewn,
My love rose up so early
And stole out unbeknown
And went to church alone.

They tolled the one bell only,
Groom there was none to see,
The mourners followed after,
And so to church went she,
And would not wait for me.

The bells they sound on Bredon,
And still the steeples hum.
'Come all to church, good people,' -
Oh, noisy bells, be dumb;
I hear you, I will come.

[Truth and Beauty]

I think the OP has abandoned his own thread.

Sorry, I had some things to attend to IRL. I figured this board was slow enough that a couple of days between posts wouldn't matter.

[Truth and Beauty]

Good idea. Truth and Beauty, tell us why you think this particular sonnet is "the most beautiful poem ever written".

Because it's purdy? But seriously, I'm not as literate as you are, so I'll try to phrase it by responding to your comments.

I assume you read 700-year-old Florentine well enough to need no translation

Actually yes, though I don't like to brag about it.

For me, it expresses both the universal human truth that passionate love is always troubled, and a historical snapshot of love expressed in a troubled age. If I recall, Dante fought in a war for the right to have the Pope, rather than the Holy Roman Emperor, have influence over Florence; so already we know his world was complicated in ways that it's hard for us to understand now. Can't recall what city he fought against; nor at what point he had to leave Florence, but in any case we have beautiful poetry in a troubled world. I wonder how Dante would have fared a couple of hundred years later, during the Renaissance.

+1

What do you think of the opening stanza, addressing other poets? Do you think it makes the rest of the sonnet insincere, more of a demonstration of poetic skill on the standard subject of personified Love than a real artistic expression of emotion? It kind of feels that way for me, which takes away the emotional import that it'd need to be my personal "most beautiful poem." Maybe it would help if we heard the poem being whispered on the soundtrack while we watch Marcello Mastroianni struggle with his emotions.

You make a good point here. I think you're right.

Why I personally like this poem? It just stirs something in me, the sentiments expressed, and the music when read out loud. It reminds me of a past love.

Good thread, Truth and Beauty.

Thank you. I'm glad you decided to bury the hatchet.

[Baldwin]

Good thread, Truth and Beauty.

Thank you. I'm glad you decided to bury the hatchet.

Compromises are necessary for the maintenance of a civilization. And, I'm a soft touch. It's difficult to permanently gain my dislike in real life, let alone on a message board.

I just wish I knew more poetry. I've written some decent poems, but I'm not a poet; otherwise (I imagine), I'd have a better memory of all the poems I read in the '70s. Of the Divina Comedia, I've only read Inferno, and that in translation. I can barely deal with Chaucer's English; I'd love to be able to read Boccaccio or Froissart in the original, but I've no gift for languages.

There are strange things done 'neath the midnight sun
By the men who moil for gold.

Not beautiful, but it pops into my head at odd moments. That, or

The fair wind blew, the white foam flew,
The furrow followed free;
We were the first that ever burst
Into that soundless sea.

Again, narrative poetry. Good strong lines, but not exactly a meditation on the sweet pain of love.

[Hatshepsut]

Well, as long as we're going to mention other poems we find to be most beautiful, here's my favorite (in translation from the Greek, and not my preferred translation either, but I can't seem to find the one that is, and no, I don't read a word of Greek). It's by Constantine Cavafy:

Ithaka

As you set out for Ithaka
hope the road is a long one
full of adventures and discovery
don't be afraid of Laistrygonians, Cyclops or
angry Poseidon:
you'll never meet them on your way
as long as you keep your thoughts raised high,
as long as a rare excitement
stirs your spirit and your body.
Laistrygonians, Cyclops,
wild Poseidon-you won't encounter them
unless you bring them along inside your soul,
unless your soul sets them up in front of you.

Hope your road is a long one.
May there be many summer mornings when,
with what pleasure, what joy,
you enter harbors you're seeing for the first time;
may you stop at Syrian trading stations
to buy fine things,
mother of pearl and coral, amber and ebony,
sensual perfume of every kind-
as many sensual perfumes as you can;
and may you visit many Egyptian cities
to learn and go on learning from their scholars.

Keep Ithaka always in your mind.
Arriving there is what you're destined for.
But don't hurry the journey at all.
Better if it lasts for years,
so you're old by the time you reach the island,
wealthy with all you've gained on the way,
not expecting Ithaka to make you rich.
Ithaka gave you the marvelous journey.
Without her you wouldn't have set out.
She has nothing left to give you now.
And if you find her poor, Ithaka won't have fooled you.
Wise as you will have become, so full of experience,
you'll have understood by then what Ithaka means.

My second favorite poem ever is "Ulysses" by Alfred Lord Tennyson - I won't put it here as it is very famous and easily found through a quick Google search.

I'm pretty sure the two above choices peg me as rather middle-brow on the literature front, but there you go.

[iampunha]

Is there a translation that isn't forced rhyme? Those are always kinda grody.

And forced rhyme when the poem isn't supposed to rhyme is no more fun.

Well, actually, hilarious. Because:

When I was in high school and translating Virgil (which I wouldn't recommend to anyone who didn't want to do it anyway), the Internet was, for our purposes, a babe in arms. But it was still something to be in someone's arms.

Now, as we most of us know, it is far easier -- or at least vastly more appealing -- to search online for translations than to actually translate the kcuffing poem yerself.

So while every other 15-year-old boy was looking for porn, on I would go looking for translations of Virgil. (And porn. But not Virgil porn.)

Tiiiiiiiiny problem.

Seems that most of the people who had published their translations said, "This is poetry, so it must rhyme."

Seems that most of the people who had translated the kcuffing poem theirselves had deliberately distorted word choice and the laws of English themselves to, by golly, get something that scanned and rhymed.

Dactylic hexameter's scansion changes by the line -- a meter of dactylic hexameter can go -\\ (long short short) or -- (long long), so getting it all going in the same pattern makes it kind of monotonous if not obviously cribbed.

And dactylic hexameter is to rhyme as Bermuda is to Viking deaths of the year 973. It's like translating Beowulf from the Old English and trying to get it to rhyme.

So all those well-meaning people with all those well-meaning rhymes and all the word order obliterated in the name of the sacred rhyme ...

In retrospect, my translations weren't a load better, But at least they didn't superimpose (too many) 20th century prescriptions on the written word.

[Baldwin]

Sometimes, even when a translation isn't needed, people think a poem needs to be "fixed" by forcing it to rhyme. I saw somebody's well-meaning rewrite of the 23 Psalm, one of the most beautiful bits of the KJB, distorted into rhyming doggerel.

[Hatshepsut]

That would be a fun thread if we could get enough people to participate - take a beautiful poem that doesn't rhyme and have people "fix" it by turning it into doggerel.

[iampunha]

That would be a fun thread if we could get enough people to participate - take a beautiful poem that doesn't rhyme and have people "fix" it by turning it into doggerel.

You rang:

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