+ Reply to thread
Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: The naming of Israel

  1. #1
    Stegodon kk fusion's avatar
    Registered
    Feb 2009
    Location
    France/Germany
    Posts
    298

    Default The naming of Israel

    Why would a state that claims to be secular choose an aggressively religious name like that?
    Was the name ordered by British Palestinian authorities and they never bothered to change it?
    Or do they secretly prefer people following the Jewish religion?

  2. #2
    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
    Registered
    Feb 2009
    Location
    moston, UK.
    Posts
    4,779

    Default Re: The naming of Israel

    They lied about being secular? An excessive attachment to a past that most people don't give a shit about, except in how those beliefs affect the possibilities of future world peace? Maybe god knows?

    No idea.

    Probably.
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

  3. #3
    Member xenophon41's avatar
    Registered
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Up country; west, east, south and somewhat north...
    Posts
    37

    Default Re: The naming of Israel

    I normally don't rise to anything that looks so much like bait. But I kind of like ivan, and don't know kk fusion, so I'll presume we're all honestly confused about the question posed in the OP.

    Here's some help...

    First, to understand the religious and nationalist features of the modern state of Israel, you have to know the pertinent details of its origins. Although I don't recommend Wikipedia as a single reference, EVER, it's often very useful as a starting point for research. Thus, the article on "History of Israel" seems to be well structured to start you off. I've skimmed it, and although it is not a deep review it is sufficiently broad and I noticed no questionable information. (Although the bias in the article -if it exists- is probably in the selection of information that was not included.)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

    There is one other essential feature of modern Israel which must be understood if one wants to form an honest opinion of the state's balance between being a secular democracy with freedom of religion while remaining a Jewish home state. That is the history and status of the Israel-Palestine conflict. From the very start, but mainly as a consequence of the Arab Invasion in 1948, large numbers of Palestinians and Jews were displaced from their homes and properties (at least one and half million individuals, combined). The ways in which the various states of the Middle East (and UN member states) responded to those displacements created the modern context for the Israel-Arab relationship, and formed the essential problem that remains unresolved.

    I won't recommend a particular viewpoint for that conflict, but I highly recommend you begin by following the external links provided in the Wikipedia article and through your search engine of choice, and that you keep in mind that a high percentage of informational resources on this conflict are provided by parties with very definite positions regarding it.


    But please, don't look at the question exclusively through the lens of your own experience. That parochial approach may be a comfortable way to reinforce whatever opinions you already have, but it won't make them any more intelligent or rational.

    Good luck!
    If this is coffee, please bring me some tea. But if this is tea please bring me some coffee. ~Abraham Lincoln

  4. #4
    Stegodon kk fusion's avatar
    Registered
    Feb 2009
    Location
    France/Germany
    Posts
    298

    Default Re: The naming of Israel

    Thanks, xenophon. I knew it would be controversial, but I didn't intend it as 'bait'.

    According to the Jerusalem Post the founders declared their admiration for the US declaration of independence (where freedom of religion was a core value) and then proceeded to kick off the new state of Israel in what was basically a big religious ceremony.

    I knew Israel was founded as a state for the Jewish people, but I understood that in an ethnic sense. If you're Jewish by ancestry, you will be considered a 'real' Jew even if you're 100% non-religious, right?

    So let me repeat my question in no uncertain terms:

    Is there a factual bias in favor of a single religion in the State of Israel?

  5. #5
    Member xenophon41's avatar
    Registered
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Up country; west, east, south and somewhat north...
    Posts
    37

    Default Re: The naming of Israel

    Well, that restatement certainly sharpens the question.

    I think anyone would have to admit that the bias inherent in the creation of Israel as a Jewish state would necessarily favor Judaism as a majority religion. But I frankly doubt that a strong case could be made that there is any bias against the practice of other religions in Israel. Which probably makes Israel not fundamentally different than European nations in terms of religious freedoms. And a step ahead of a few others.
    If this is coffee, please bring me some tea. But if this is tea please bring me some coffee. ~Abraham Lincoln

  6. #6
    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
    Registered
    Feb 2009
    Location
    moston, UK.
    Posts
    4,779

    Default Re: The naming of Israel

    Is anyone else amazed at the amount of influence the opinions of a small proportion of the estimated 15 million Jews on the planet has on the rest of the world?

    Or is it the case that it's the vast majority who share the same beliefs and opinions, and that is one of the reasons they are so successful?
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

  7. #7
    Elephant
    Registered
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Within shouting distance of Hershey
    Posts
    528

    Default Re: The naming of Israel

    Quote Originally posted by kk fusion
    Thanks, xenophon. I knew it would be controversial, but I didn't intend it as 'bait'.

    According to the Jerusalem Post the founders declared their admiration for the US declaration of independence (where freedom of religion was a core value) and then proceeded to kick off the new state of Israel in what was basically a big religious ceremony.

    I knew Israel was founded as a state for the Jewish people, but I understood that in an ethnic sense. If you're Jewish by ancestry, you will be considered a 'real' Jew even if you're 100% non-religious, right?

    So let me repeat my question in no uncertain terms:

    Is there a factual bias in favor of a single religion in the State of Israel?
    Israel is culturally Jewish like the United States, Germany and pretty much most Western countries are culturally Christian. There's nothing in Israeli law that says that businesses have to close from noon Friday to sunset Saturday; it's just that when the majority of the country celebrates Sabbath on Saturday, it makes sense for businesses to close then, especially since spending (or carrying) money violates the Sabbath. Arab businesses close on Friday to celebrate the Muslim Sabbath. Christian businesses close on Sunday to celebrate that Sabbath.

    Likewise, some restaurants choose to sell kosher food because, again, many Jews keep kosher. Restaurants are licensed kosher, but then, any restaurant that calls itself kosher has to submit to inspection and certification by a rabbi, and a license is simply proof that that restaurant has had such an inspection. In fact, I found this site that says that a minority of restaurants are licensed as kosher. It's a business decision made by an owner who wishes to cater to the observant-Jewish market, but the government has no say in that decision.

    I have been to Haifa, and while there is a good bit of religion, I can't say that I saw any signs of government-enforced religion. Heck, I saw "Sister Act" in Haifa, in English with Hebrew subtitles. Being able to see a movie about Catholic nuns in a predominately Jewish country doesn't spell government interference to me.
    There is more than one way to burn a book. And the world is full of people running about with lit matches. -- Ray Bradbury's "Coda"

  8. #8
    Stegodon kk fusion's avatar
    Registered
    Feb 2009
    Location
    France/Germany
    Posts
    298

    Default Re: The naming of Israel

    Thanks, MsRobyn.

    Ivan, are you attributing conspiracy theories to me? I am simply a strong proponent of the separation of state and church, and I don't see why Israel should be getting any more slack than others. It's a modern state that produces scientifc research, exports technology, and knows how to keep down its neighbors through military force, and I don't see much room for silly superstition.

  9. #9
    Banned
    Registered
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    149

    Default Re: The naming of Israel

    Quote Originally posted by MsRobyn
    Quote Originally posted by kk fusion
    Thanks, xenophon. I knew it would be controversial, but I didn't intend it as 'bait'.

    According to the Jerusalem Post the founders declared their admiration for the US declaration of independence (where freedom of religion was a core value) and then proceeded to kick off the new state of Israel in what was basically a big religious ceremony.

    I knew Israel was founded as a state for the Jewish people, but I understood that in an ethnic sense. If you're Jewish by ancestry, you will be considered a 'real' Jew even if you're 100% non-religious, right?

    So let me repeat my question in no uncertain terms:

    Is there a factual bias in favor of a single religion in the State of Israel?
    Israel is culturally Jewish like the United States, Germany and pretty much most Western countries are culturally Christian. There's nothing in Israeli law that says that businesses have to close from noon Friday to sunset Saturday; it's just that when the majority of the country celebrates Sabbath on Saturday, it makes sense for businesses to close then, especially since spending (or carrying) money violates the Sabbath. Arab businesses close on Friday to celebrate the Muslim Sabbath. Christian businesses close on Sunday to celebrate that Sabbath.

    Likewise, some restaurants choose to sell kosher food because, again, many Jews keep kosher. Restaurants are licensed kosher, but then, any restaurant that calls itself kosher has to submit to inspection and certification by a rabbi, and a license is simply proof that that restaurant has had such an inspection. In fact, I found this site that says that a minority of restaurants are licensed as kosher. It's a business decision made by an owner who wishes to cater to the observant-Jewish market, but the government has no say in that decision.

    I have been to Haifa, and while there is a good bit of religion, I can't say that I saw any signs of government-enforced religion. Heck, I saw "Sister Act" in Haifa, in English with Hebrew subtitles. Being able to see a movie about Catholic nuns in a predominately Jewish country doesn't spell government interference to me.
    Nice to see that the intelligent response came before a barrage of "Something was said about Israel, ATTACK!" posts.

    J

  10. #10
    Elephant
    Registered
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Within shouting distance of Hershey
    Posts
    528

    Default Re: The naming of Israel

    Quote Originally posted by kk fusion
    I knew Israel was founded as a state for the Jewish people, but I understood that in an ethnic sense. If you're Jewish by ancestry, you will be considered a 'real' Jew even if you're 100% non-religious, right?
    You're exactly right. The Law of Return guarantees Israeli citizenship to anyone who is Jewish and whose mother is Jewish, and I believe Jews by Choice (i.e. Jews who formally converted from another religion). It also covers the non-Jewish spouses and children of Jews. The Israeli government doesn't give a wet slap if the last time you went to synagogue was 15 years ago when your great-great aunt died, or if you're eating a bacon cheeseburger when you stand in front of the immigration official to swear as to your Jewish ancestry.

    Thanks for the compliment, The J Word. Israel may be significant to me, but it's a country in its own right and I'd rather address ignorance and answer the question than flap my wings over a non-attack of Israel.
    There is more than one way to burn a book. And the world is full of people running about with lit matches. -- Ray Bradbury's "Coda"

  11. #11
    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
    Registered
    Feb 2009
    Location
    moston, UK.
    Posts
    4,779

    Default Re: The naming of Israel

    Quote Originally posted by kk fusion
    Thanks, MsRobyn.
    Ivan, are you attributing conspiracy theories to me?
    Not at all.
    Quote Originally posted by kk fusion
    I am simply a strong proponent of the separation of state and church, and I don't see why Israel should be getting any more slack than others.
    I'm with you all the way here.
    Quote Originally posted by kk fusion
    It's a modern state that produces scientifc research, exports technology, and knows how to keep down its neighbors through military force, and I don't see much room for silly superstition.
    I don't think you are suggesting only a Jewish state could have achieved those goals in that region, are you?

    I'll be honest - I have little time for religiosity and even less for those who define themselves by it and rely on ancient history to justify those beliefs, thereby poisoning the well of modern progress.

    If anyone thinks this means I share the beliefs of a certain nazty little man with a silly moustache, GFY!
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

  12. #12
    Stegodon kk fusion's avatar
    Registered
    Feb 2009
    Location
    France/Germany
    Posts
    298

    Default Re: The naming of Israel

    Quote Originally posted by The J Word

    Nice to see that the intelligent response came before a barrage of "Something was said about Israel, ATTACK!" posts.
    Yeah, I was positively surprised as well. In my home of Germany, Israel is still largely seen as beyond criticism, for historical reasons. I believe this paternalistic approach is actually counter-productive for a state that seeks world-wide recognition and acceptance.

    So here's a small follow-up question: Why did they choose Hebrew as the official language, an ancient language that was pretty damn foreign to everyone except a small number of religious scholars? If they wanted to strengthen the Jewish identity, wouldn't Yiddish have been the obvious choice?

  13. #13
    Elephant
    Registered
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Within shouting distance of Hershey
    Posts
    528

    Default Re: The naming of Israel

    Yiddish actually isn't a logical choice. Yiddish is largely the province of Ashkenazi (European) Jews, and even there, it's not universally spoken. Mediterranean Jews speak Ladino, and some Jews don't speak either one. Hebrew, on the other hand, is pretty much universal because most Jews can at least read it. It was also easily adapted to modern life, kind of like how the Catholic Church has modernized Latin to cover modern life. In any event, it's possible to get around Israel without knowing Hebrew at all since there are so many American and British expats, and children of expats. My Hebrew is lousy, but I still managed. Besides, "Sister Act" was in English with Hebrew subtitles, not dubbed into Hebrew.

    Honestly, Israel has enough support in the United States that it's generally seen as above reproach; my mother's opinion (for example) is that the Palestinians have no right to do anything, and that Israel can do what it wants in the name of self-defense. On the other hand, I feel that any country that has sovereignty needs to put on its big-girl panties and behave itself.
    There is more than one way to burn a book. And the world is full of people running about with lit matches. -- Ray Bradbury's "Coda"

+ Reply to thread

Posting rules

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts