Things are not transparent. Quit lying to us.

[XJETGIRLX]

He was talking about poopsock2 was my assumption. Here is a case where a poster can now play across the line on the thin excuse of what? This isn't a sensitive question. I don't need to put this in the Hive. I think we should ban poopsock2 immediately for not being what socks were intended for.

What you need is to learn to deal with minor criticisms of the running of this board without resorting to threats of punishment.

I couldn't agree with this more.

And I don't see a need to ban this sock. This seems like exactly the kind of situation in which you'd want to allow socks, to be honest. I'm really disappointed with how this is all playing out.

[Zuul]

Please don't ban these guys now. If anything, change the policy on socks to forbid their use to criticise the board in the future and grandfather these two in. I don't think the policy is clear enough now to ban them and it will only make them scream louder.

I actually don't see anything wrong with sock accounts being created for questioning moderator actions. such as in the OP. Preferably, people would feel comfortable coming out as themselves and questioning us directly, but if they feel more comfortable doing so under an anonymous name, I don't see why they couldn't. If it becomes an abuse issue, that would be a whole different ballgame.

[Poopsock2]

But poopsock, I don't see your last several posts as being anything other than an attempt to troll.

I'm not trying to troll. I'm frustrated and pissed off and more a little surprised at the mods' reaction to my posts. Very heavy-handed, very authoritarian. Basically, everything I came here to get away from at the SDMB, only much worse.

Go back and reread this thread from the perspective of a poster and see how the mods are reacting to criticism. It isn't pretty.

If I were a troll, I'd want you guys to act like this. Instead, I want you guys to calm the fuck down and discuss this stuff without the threats and bluster. I'm an anti-troll.

[Myrnalene]

I have done no such thing. This is not what socks were meant for. Read the rules I quoted. How is this a sensitive question like medical. Where was a single member threatened with banning. The rules look clear to me.

The rules look clear to me: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4

The rules only list medical questions as an example of "sensitive questions" and I think these socks could make a case that questions re: board administration are "sensitive questions". I'm not saying that are right, and I don't think they needed to use the socks to begin with.

Fuck me, this thread is moving fast.

[What Exit?]

So post as yourself, this is not what sock accounts were meant for. Find a single case where I have gone after a poster for asking tough questions.

How about, oh I don't know, this thread? Remember when you called for my banning? It wasn't that long ago, I'm sure you remember.

You're are a sock at the moment. Don't be obtuse.

Last word from me as I am being asked to leave the thread. I would like the members and staff to resolve this rule on Socks without me. I think this is clear bullshit and an open hole for unlimited trolling. If you want me for this subject, try the T'Dome.

[Myrnalene]

I thought it would be fun.

You are crazy. :wink:

[mymissingsock!]

He was talking about poopsock2 was my assumption. Here is a case where a poster can now play across the line on the thin excuse of what? This isn't a sensitive question. I don't need to put this in the Hive. I think we should ban poopsock2 immediately for not being what socks were intended for. I'll reply to any serious questions from members but poopsock2 is just trying to play an angle and troll us in my opinion.

I even think the Op is a chickenshit just try to stir the shit. Legit concerns about the board do not require socks. Socks were for personal questions not to let people to stir up shit.

This is the very reason why I personally created an posted under this account. I was pretty sure several mods here could not take it.

P.S.: Helpful tip: Anyone using a sock account to complain about the staff because you don't trust the staff, I hope you're posting from a different IP than normal. Otherwise you're really not very clear on the concept.

And this is another reason. Right now there are two of us that felt they needed to pose these questions and comments under a different name to avoid retalliation from the mods. McNutty now is going to hunt us down by IP and ferret us out.

It was made clear we wanted to pose these comments and questions anonymously. Now you are going to bypass that and figure out who we are? Thanks.

[Poopsock2]

You're are a sock at the moment. Don't be obtuse.

Last word from me as I am being asked to leave the thread. I would like the members and staff to resolve this rule on Socks without me. I think this is clear bullshit and an open hole for unlimited trolling. If you want me for this subject, try the T'Dome.

I stated at the outset that I didn't feel comfortable making these comments under my regular name. Banning this sock is effectively removing my ability to critique the moderators without fear of future consequences due to them not liking me for posting as I have been.

[Yocto]

Given that we are going to be transparent about everything, should we be expecting the same from the members of the board?

You mean, if poster A doesn't like what poster B is doing - instead of using private messages to secretly coax moderator C into action against poster B - poster A would publicly rant about poster B in the Thunderdome for all to see? What a novel idea. :dub:

[NAF1138]

But poopsock, I don't see your last several posts as being anything other than an attempt to troll.

I'm not trying to troll. I'm frustrated and pissed off and more a little surprised at the mods' reaction to my posts. Very heavy-handed, very authoritarian. Basically, everything I came here to get away from at the SDMB, only much worse.

Go back and reread this thread from the perspective of a poster and see how the mods are reacting to criticism. It isn't pretty.

If I were a troll, I'd want you guys to act like this. Instead, I want you guys to calm the fuck down and discuss this stuff without the threats and bluster. I'm an anti-troll.

Fair enough. I don't think you should be banned, FWIW, but I do think that, like What Exit? maybe you have gotten a bit overinvested in the fight and lost sight of what the fight is about. You have twisted words more than once to fit your own conclusions in this thread. It might be best if you walked away for a few minutes too.

On preview, it would seem that it might not have all been unreasonable twisting.

Can we all please remember that McNutty is board admin only in so far as he hosts the board on his server. He is in no position of authority beyond that and has very limited access to most elements of the board.

[Myrnalene]

McNutty now is going to hunt us down by IP and ferret us out. It was made clear we wanted to pose these comments and questions anonymously. Now you are going to bypass that and figure out who we are? Thanks.

HE DIDN'T SAY THAT HE WAS.

and you're not going to, RIGHT, MCNUTTY?

[Zuul]

And this is another reason. Right now there are two of us that felt they needed to pose these questions and comments under a different name to avoid retalliation from the mods. McNutty now is going to hunt us down by IP and ferret us out.

It was made clear we wanted to pose these comments and questions anonymously. Now you are going to bypass that and figure out who we are? Thanks.

Does McNutty even have access to that information? He didn't say he was going to do that and no mod has suggested doing such a thing. The anonymity of questioning sock accounts has been, as far as I'm aware, respected.

[Jeff]

I have done no such thing. This is not what socks were meant for. Read the rules I quoted. How is this a sensitive question like medical. Where was a single member threatened with banning. The rules look clear to me.

Fuck him! He's asking questions I don't like in a way I don't like. He's a chickenshit, let's ban his ass!

There is nothing about this contents of this thread that demands knee-jerk Mod action, or mod action without input from the rest of the mods. Take several steps away from the shiny red button for a while.

[McNutty]

Of course I'm not. My point in saying "I hope you are posting from a different IP than normal" was not to say "or we're going to hunt you down," but rather to say "or you're not too good at the thinking." It's like walking into a police station and filing a police report, in person, giving your full name, and then saying to the officer filling out the paperwork, "but I don't trust you so I would like you to not write my name down there."

[dread pirate jimbo]

FWIW, I've found the moderation and the transparency on this board to be just fine. But please continue the discussion; I'm finding it quite fascinating!

[featherlou]

Winston has made it clear that he doesn't want to be taken seriously as a moderator. I'm not sure why he wants to be a moderator since if he ever actually needs to moderate it will be ineffective due to his history, but that's his business, not mine.
<snip>

If I need to actually Moderate, I'll use the modhat tag. Otherwise, I'm just a regular poster here. It's as simple as that.<snip>

I don't agree with this; no matter what capacity you're posting in, it always says "Moderator" under your name. Whatever else you do, you are always representing the powers that be on these boards.

[TheFlame]

I don't agree with this; no matter what capacity you're posting in, it always says "Moderator" under your name. Whatever else you do, you are always representing the powers that be on these boards.

This is why the modhat tag(s) were originally introduced, so that moderators could be freer to post as posters (i.e. without the modhat).

[McNutty]

I don't agree with this; no matter what capacity you're posting in, it always says "Moderator" under your name. Whatever else you do, you are always representing the powers that be on these boards.

I go back and forth on that issue. I agree that it's hard to ignore the fact that someone has a Moderator title when reading their posts, but it's also unfair to ask them to completely give up the ability to post as a regular poster. I thought the whole purpose of the mod-related tags was to effectively give a standing "posting this as a regular member" disclaimer unless the mod tags were used. That said, if a mod likes to jump in threads and post off-topic jokes that detract from the topic, I'd say that should be frowned upon not because they're a mod, but because it's borderline jerkish.

[featherlou]

I think it's an unfortunate but unavoidable consequence of the label; just like police officers have to be careful what they do in off-duty hours (and especially when still in uniform), moderators always have the label, and their actions are always looked at with that label attached.

I think this is probably heading into hijack territory, though. Sorry - my bad.

[mysockaccount]

I think we should ban poopsock2 immediately for not being what socks were intended for. I'll reply to any serious questions from members but poopsock2 is just trying to play an angle and troll us in my opinion.

I didn't feel like I needed a special account to say this until today. It is a shame I need to create my first sock account ever just to post how I feel.


WhatExit? You seriously need to retire as a mod here.

[pepperlandgirl]

How many sock accounts do you need, by the way? Are you just going to keep creating them until you've got an entire army calling for the heads of the moderators?

[Jeff]

Yes, of course. Keep making this about the poster and not the complaint. Good job!

[McNutty]

I think we should ban poopsock2 immediately for not being what socks were intended for. I'll reply to any serious questions from members but poopsock2 is just trying to play an angle and troll us in my opinion.

I didn't feel like I needed a special account to say this until today. It is a shame I need to create my first sock account ever just to post how I feel.

WhatExit? You seriously need to retire as a mod here.

For what it's worth, I absolutely, positively could not disagree more strongly with what What Exit says in the quoted bit right there. And yet I also think he should be allowed to see the light, retract that statement, and continue to be a great mod here. His interpretation of the sock rules was too strict. Complaining about the mods could be considered a "sensitive" situation. For reasons I have pointed out, using a sock to complain about the mods isn't a very rational way to protect yourself, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed. They're only truly anonymous to regular members, but if that's good enough for them, then that's their business.

[Myrnalene]

I didn't feel like I needed a special account to say this until today. It is a shame I need to create my first sock account ever just to post how I feel.


WhatExit? You seriously need to retire as a mod here.

I agree that what you quoted from What Exit? was a mistake on his part, but he is an awesome admin. So far he has been the most generous and open to feedback of anyone on the staff. Don't you dare try to take my Jim from me.

Still not getting why you feel you need to post this as a sock.

[featherlou]

When we basically left the Dope a couple of months ago, I felt like I couldn't criticize mods or admins there, after a few spectacular wagon-circling incidents and strange, incomprehensible new rules popping up. We don't have any of that here, in my opinion. I support people complaining behind their sock accounts, but I don't really see the need either.

[mymissingsock!]

How many sock accounts do you need, by the way? Are you just going to keep creating them until you've got an entire army calling for the heads of the moderators?

I have only this one account.

Have you even considered more than one person might feel this way?

[WhyNot]

So post as yourself, this is not what sock accounts were meant for. Find a single case where I have gone after a poster for asking tough questions.

How about, oh I don't know, this thread? Remember when you called for my banning? It wasn't that long ago, I'm sure you remember.

You really are quite dim, aren't you? He's not talking about banning you for asking tough questions, he's talking about banning you for misuse of a sock. Which, I disagree with, by the way. I think complaints about moderation is a perfectly valid use of a sock, but he's certainly not saying what you're trying to attribute to him.

McNutty now is going to hunt us down by IP and ferret us out.

Did someone hit the board with a Deilluminator while I was out this morning? Or is everyone high except me?

FWIW, I've found the moderation and the transparency on this board to be just fine. But please continue the discussion; I'm finding it quite fascinating!

+1.

(Yes, I know that pisses people off. Deal with it.)

[TheFlame]

Did someone hit the board with a Deilluminator while I was out this morning? Or is everyone high except me?

Well, it is 4/20 after all

[mymissingsock!]

So my complaints aren't valid because I must be high because of the date?

Well done TheFlame.

I wonder why people think you are part of the problem?

[TheFlame]

So my complaints aren't valid because I must be high because of the date?

Well done TheFlame.

I wonder why people think you are part of the problem?

...Or perhaps it was a riff on WhyNot's post, and her other post in Jibba Jabba. It was in no way intended to insinuate that you are high.

[CRSP]

I wonder why people think you are part of the problem?

Who exactly?

[TheFlame]

I wonder why people think you are part of the problem?

Who exactly?

I assume he means me.

[Zuul]

You really are quite dim, aren't you? He's not talking about banning you for asking tough questions, he's talking about banning you for misuse of a sock. Which, I disagree with, by the way. I think complaints about moderation is a perfectly valid use of a sock, but he's certainly not saying what you're trying to attribute to him.

And this is my grand philosophical problem with all of this. I absolutely agree that posters should be able to complain anonymously if they feel the need to do so, but if we allow this we're also running the risk of being completely overrun. After the troll attack yesterday, I hate the idea of a bunch of castrated mods sitting around, rubbing their hands together like ninnies and fretting, "Oh deary me, we can't do anything because they have complaints."

The batch of people with the complaints right now are fine and should not be stopped unless they start to break rules, but we do have to have a line somewhere. I'm just not sure where the best place to set that line is.

[Badtz Maru]

When I complained about being called an asshole in one thread and a butt-remaing asshole in another, the one who called me an asshole got a warning. The only response on the other was a private message saying they had talked to the offender about it. What good does that do? This person has not accumulated a warning for flaming outside of the 'Dome. Nobody else in the thread knows that their calling me names is considered wrong and there's posts from people saying they agree with her. This kind of bullshit is why I'm not going to post here any longer.

[WhyNot]

So my complaints aren't valid because I must be high because of the date?

Who said your complaints aren't valid? That particular charge isn't valid, as has already been pointed out. Your other complaints? Sure, maybe. To be honest, I've forgotten what they were; they were sort of overshadowed by the one where you misrepresented McNutty.

[NAF1138]

When I complained about being called an asshole in one thread and a butt-remaing asshole in another, the one who called me an asshole got a warning. The only response on the other was a private message saying they had talked to the offender about it. What good does that do? This person has not accumulated a warning for flaming outside of the 'Dome. Nobody else in the thread knows that their calling me names is considered wrong and there's posts from people saying they agree with her. This kind of bullshit is why I'm not going to post here any longer.

Hold that thought, because this is one of the situations where I feel things were handled badly by the mods here and I wish that it had been discussed more in The Hive. (As it is, it was discussed in The Hive to an extent) I happen to agree that the situation in JJ that you mention should not have been handled via PM but rather with a mod note in the thread. I am not really sure why Caerie made that decision, but if you disagree I am glad that you brought it up. We can't get better if we don't get posts like this one which are well reasoned with specific examples of what was done incorrectly.

I don't really know how much I should say in this thread because I don't know where the line of private infromation is anymore, and we need to work on that, but I think that we are still figuring this sort of thing out and are getting better. At least I hope we are getting better.

[Inner Stickler]

I support people complaining behind their sock accounts, but I don't really see the need either.

I don't support it. Sock accounts are, especially in this instance, pointless. If someone is going to complain about the way things are run, let them do it from their 'real' account. If they can't be bothered to be honest with us then we're under no compunction to address their problems. If you wanna ask about that embarrassingly located rash via sock, fine. If you wanna bitch at people, then own your bitching. I thought we were adults here.

[featherlou]

You could argue that if people can use socks to complain about management, then they'll do it here where problems can actually be addressed instead of hightailing it off to the Snarkpit.

[Inner Stickler]

Big deal. I don't go to the snarkpit. I don't care what people say in the snarkpit. If you can't be bothered to post it under your 'real' account then it's not a problem that needs to be solved.

[CRSP]

I agree. I think people need to get real about this place. What just happened wasn't a pair of disgruntled posters fearing for their posting rights if they speak out. It's part of the same bullshit from yesterday, and happened 24 hours after the same thing was suggested on the Snarkpit.

I see no good reason for allowing anonymous criticism of how the place is run. Nobody has been banned for speaking out, nor will they ever be, and if you aren't a member here, I don't give a shit about your opinion on how we do things. Socks were supposed to be for asking medical and delicate personal questions, not causing the sort of chaos what we've just seen.

What good reason is there for allowing socks to speak out on board matters?

[Q.E.D.]

What good reason is there for allowing socks to speak out on board matters?

I see none whatsoever. Clearly, it causes more problems than it addresses. If you're (a general "you") too much of a pussy to post a complaint openly, then just PM CRSP--I assume that's okay with him--and be done with it. I mean, sheesh.

[Myrnalene]

What good reason is there for allowing socks to speak out on board matters?

There is NONE, good sir. I only advised against the banning of the ones that showed up today becuase I didn't feel the the way the policy is worded currently disallows what they are doing.

What you have here is a loophole. Close it now, but let the ones that already slipped through stay.

[silenus]

Socks are for pussies. Either grow the balls (metaphorically) to complain outright, or shut up. The only reason a sock should be allowed is for plausible deniability about the aforementioned embarassing rash.

[Q.E.D.]

Even then, if you have a medical situation that so embarrassing that you can't ask under your own name and so important you have to ask about it, you should probably be asking an actual doctor and not a bunch of message board denizens who probably can't help you anyhow, however well-meaning they might be.

[Inner Stickler]

Preaching to the choir, my friend.

[ivan astikov]

What tickles me is the idea of wanting transparency for mod behaviour, while also wanting the right to hide inside a sock to criticise them.

Why are posters concerned about mods 'coming after them' if they reveal their identities? If that was to happen to a poster, do they think the rest of the board are going to miss it, or even ignore it?

[McNutty]

I'm changing my mind. Those arguing against allowing socks for board complaints are convincing. I originally thought it was harmless (although pointless), but it's becoming obvious that threads like today's will never stop if people can just go through anonymouse and create as many socks as they want, so long as they dress up their trolling or manufactured drama as faux concern for board policies.

If you fear you'll be banned for speaking your mind about the board, you obviously aren't paying attention to the many outspoken people here who haven't been banned.

[WhyNot]

I'm changing my mind. Those arguing against allowing socks for board complaints are convincing. I originally thought it was harmless (although pointless), but it's becoming obvious that threads like today's will never stop if people can just go through anonymouse and create as many socks as they want, so long as they dress up their trolling or manufactured drama as faux concern for board policies.

If you fear you'll be banned for speaking your mind about the board, you obviously aren't paying attention to the many outspoken people here who haven't been banned.

Yep, me too.

(Now dang it, that's twice today this issue has forced me into a "me, too" post type situation.)

[featherlou]

So the socks today were snarkers? I change my vote, too - use your own username, and stand by your complaints. We don't need to waste our time arguing over anonymous idiots stirring the pot.

[Myrnalene]

So the socks today were snarkers?

That is a hypothesis. It is not proven. I would not die of shock if it were the case.