Star Trek (2009) There be Open Spoilers Here, Beware.

[The Logos]

I had thought to solicit ideas and opinions on J.J. Abrams upcoming Star Trek, since I hadn't noticed a thread on this topic. (Forgive the long-time lurker.) For the uninitiated, .

For my part, I am eagerly anticipating this "reboot," having been sorely disappointed with both Insurrection and Nemesis. Viewer reactions from the surprise world premier last week at Austin, Texas have been unanimously positive. And the fact the powers that be saw fit to have an advanced viewing does also speak well for the movie. Here's hoping.

[What Exit?]

First welcome out of lurkdom. I hope more and more posters will follow you out of lurking. I for one think we need more voices.

I started out lukewarm about the reboot but as time has gone on and I have seen each trailer I am really looking forward to the movie. It is cool for me that my son is also really looking forward to it. The original series went on the week I was born and I grew up watching the repeats in syndication. It remains my favorite show for sentimental reasons. This reboot looks like it could be great. None of the series since the original and only one of the non-original cast movies were really enjoyable to me. Some had their moments but none captured the wonder of my youth. I also think none came close to the character interplay between the principles. I prefer the action oriented series of the 60s to the more enlightened later shows.

[The Logos]

Thank you for the welcome. I had been awaiting a good opening, as anyone can see from my join date, and since I have the spare time today...

I had grown up on the movies cast from the original series characters; The Voyage Home had been a particular fetish from when I first saw the movie at the tender age of five. Later I spent many hours on the novels, many more hours than on the original series episodes, in fact. So while I grew up on TNG, DS9 and VOY, my greatest fondness is still for Kirk, Spock and McCoy. Abrams has stated he has taken upon himself the daunting task of reinventing Trek, and introducing it to a new generation, as might happen with your son. I have noticed attention is being paid to this movie in quarters I wouldn't expect for just any Trek movie, which gives me hope for the future of the franchise.

[What Exit?]

I had grown up on the movies cast from the original series characters; The Voyage Home had been a particular fetish from when I first saw the movie at the tender age of five.

I hope my son loves this movie as much as I love TOS and the movies 2-6 (shame they never actually made V) . II & IV are by far my favorites and IV triumphs for many reasons. The whales, the humor, the fact it was filmed on my ship the USS Ranger while I was on-board and the fact that I met Walter Koenig and saw Nimoy very closeup and was one of the many Dixie Cap wearers in the scene in the Hanger Bay. Every scene that was suppose to be on the USS Enterprise CVN-65 was taken on the USS Ranger instead and I had been in those spots. Chekov's escape racing through the ship is a little funny if you knew how many different parts of the ship he raced through in no logical order for that brief scene.

[Baldwin]

I remember watching the show the first time it came on tv. As science fiction, it's never been very interesting, but they created some enduring characters.

I kind of like the idea of Kirk being a huge asshole in his youth.

[pepperlandgirl]

I'm so excited that I squee with pleasure every time I see a commercial. I plan to buy tickets for a midnight show at the IMAX theater. My sister is flying to London on the morning of the 8th, so right now the plan is to go to the movie and then take her directly to the airport. We must see it opening night and we must see it together--there's no question of that.

I'm a huge fan of TOS, but I never had any interest in the various other series. My husband loves TNG, but I just don't like any of the characters. Every time I watch an episode, I think to myself "I find all of these people deeply unpleasant..." Except Geordi, but LaVar Burton was extremely underused. I think the fact that I'm so cold towards the other shows has something to do with my extreme love for the Old West. Kirk et al were cowboys, riding out to discover and conquer the wild frontier in the name of the Federation. Picard et al were the settlers that moved in after the West was won and everything was tame. They have their own hardships and issues to deal with, no doubt about that, but it's a different dynamic.

Anyway, all I ask of the new movie is that Kirk, Spock, and McCoy remain as awesome as ever. I know I'm going to need to get over my OHMYGODTHATSNOTCANON! stuff. It looks like Kirk sleeps with Uhura in the trailer, and I find that unnerving, though probably the only reason he didn't tap that in the series was because of the interracial stuff. I also am quite fond of Kirk's description of himself in Shore Leave as a joyless guy who took himself and his studies too seriously. But Kirk being an asshole and a trouble maker actually fits him better, as long as the movie doesn't forget that he's freaking brilliant. I don't think it will. So all in all, I'm far more excited than I am nervous.

[The Logos]

Every scene that was suppose to be on the USS Enterprise CVN-65 was taken on the USS Ranger instead and I had been in those spots.

I was aware the scenes supposedly from the USS Enterprise were in fact shot on another ship, but did not recall what that ship was. Very cool that you were present; you have my envy.

I remember watching the show the first time it came on tv. As science fiction, it's never been very interesting, but they created some enduring characters.

You and I will have to agree to disagree on how interesting Star Trek is as science fiction. I'll readily concede many of the concepts are derivative, but are interesting nonetheless. My introduction to philosophy, which now plays a central role in my life, had been through The Metaphysics of Star Trek, and my interest in physics had been fueled also by Trek. Gotta agree on the character study, though, which might be perceived as being of Shakespearean archetypes.

[Eleanor of Aquitaine]

Welcome The Logos!

I go to the theater for maybe one or two movies a year, and this will be one of them unless it gets rotten reviews. I'm uneasy with the casting for young Spock, but I'm looking forward to the movie.

I'm not old enough to have watched the original show when it first aired, but my grandmother was a big fan. She introduced me to it and gave me the novels to read when I was a kid. The novels made me feel special, like I knew more about the Star Trek universe than people who'd only watched the show.

TNG was popular when I was in college, and I enjoyed it, but I never got into DS9 or Voyager. I watched the first season of Enterprise, but lost interest in it after that.

[The Logos]

I'm so excited that I squee with pleasure every time I see a commercial. I plan to buy tickets for a midnight show at the IMAX theater. My sister is flying to London on the morning of the 8th, so right now the plan is to go to the movie and then take her directly to the airport. We must see it opening night and we must see it together--there's no question of that.

You and me both, except for the midnight viewing bit. I haven't been to an IMAX theater except for documentaries at the Milwaukee Natural History Museum, but will make the effort to see Star Trek at the theater outside Orlando. It'll have to be a subsequent viewing, though, since I intend to watch Trek that Saturday at the latest, but doubt I'll make it to Orlando by then.

Anyway, all I ask of the new movie is that Kirk, Spock, and McCoy remain as awesome as ever. I know I'm going to need to get over my OHMYGODTHATSNOTCANON! stuff. It looks like Kirk sleeps with Uhura in the trailer, and I find that unnerving, though probably the only reason he didn't tap that in the series was because of the interracial stuff. I also am quite fond of Kirk's description of himself in Shore Leave as a joyless guy who took himself and his studies too seriously. But Kirk being an asshole and a trouble maker actually fits him better, as long as the movie doesn't forget that he's freaking brilliant. I don't think it will. So all in all, I'm far more excited than I am nervous.

For what it's worth, though I cannot recall the title, there is apparently a novel from which Orci and Kurtzman have drawn inspiration which depicts a troubled adolescent James T. Kirk.

[spoiler:2st59u4p]In the third theatrical trailer, Captain Pike(?) seemingly inspires Kirk to do better, to enlist in Starfleet. Perhaps Kirk experiences a gestalt switch, or something. He's already depicted as gifted, for a towny.[/spoiler:2st59u4p]

So the two depictions might be consistent after all. I'm taking a wait and see approach.

Welcome The Logos!

Thank you!

[dread pirate jimbo]

[quote=The Logos]

I'm so excited that I squee with pleasure every time I see a commercial. I plan to buy tickets for a midnight show at the IMAX theater. My sister is flying to London on the morning of the 8th, so right now the plan is to go to the movie and then take her directly to the airport. We must see it opening night and we must see it together--there's no question of that.

You and me both, except for the midnight viewing bit. I haven't been to an IMAX theater except for documentaries at the Milwaukee Natural History Museum, but will make the effort to see Star Trek at the theater outside Orlando. It'll have to be a subsequent viewing, though, since I intend to watch Trek that Saturday at the latest, but doubt I'll make it to Orlando by then.

Anyway, all I ask of the new movie is that Kirk, Spock, and McCoy remain as awesome as ever. I know I'm going to need to get over my OHMYGODTHATSNOTCANON! stuff. It looks like Kirk sleeps with Uhura in the trailer, and I find that unnerving, though probably the only reason he didn't tap that in the series was because of the interracial stuff. I also am quite fond of Kirk's description of himself in Shore Leave as a joyless guy who took himself and his studies too seriously. But Kirk being an asshole and a trouble maker actually fits him better, as long as the movie doesn't forget that he's freaking brilliant. I don't think it will. So all in all, I'm far more excited than I am nervous.

For what it's worth, though I cannot recall the title, there is apparently a novel from which Orci and Kurtzman have drawn inspiration which depicts a troubled adolescent James T. Kirk.

[spoiler:11bw1np3]In the third theatrical trailer, Captain Pike(?) seemingly inspires Kirk to do better, to enlist in Starfleet. Perhaps Kirk experiences a gestalt switch, or something. He's already depicted as gifted, for a towny.[/spoiler:11bw1np3]

So the two depictions might be consistent after all. I'm taking a wait and see approach.

Welcome The Logos!

Thank you![/quote:11bw1np3]
Diane Carey's Best Destiny portrays a young Kirk in Iowa struggling with what to do with his life. Perhaps that's the novel in question?

I am totally geeked about the new movie. I've watched the last two trailers frame-by-frame after downloading them in HD. Sweet! I'm still on the fence about the engine design on the Enterprise, and Kirk is supposed to have HAZEL eyes, not blue, but those are my only real gripes thus far.

[The Logos]

Indeed, Wikipedia, with sources, corroborates that Best Destiny, along with Prime Directive and Spock's World were sources of inspiration, with Best Destiny "filling in the gaps" of Kirk's youth.

[dread pirate jimbo]

Indeed, Wikipedia, with sources, corroborates that Best Destiny, along with Prime Directive and Spock's World were sources of inspiration, with Best Destiny "filling in the gaps" of Kirk's youth.

Damn, I rule!

Damn, I'm a giant nerd.

[dangerdad]

I'm so tired of time-travel in Trek, that I refuse to be interested in this movie. The last one wasn't even worth downloading.

That being said, I cocked a single eyebrow when Quinto was cast as a young Spock. Very good casting there.

[The Logos]

I watched Star Trek last evening at the local theater, and will hopefully be seeing it again at the IMAX theater at the Kennedy Space Center this afternoon. Yes, is was epic, and yes it was spectacular -- a summer blockbuster perhaps in the making. But I will need to see it again to know just how much I enjoyed it personally. The change in direction was somewhat jarring at times, and I was distracted by coming to these terms.

Final verdict: go see it. (And maybe I'll have a more comprehensive review later.)

[Paul in Qatar]

Just came back from the Qatari premiere. VIP seats with waitresses.

I am still thinking it over. Some of the special effects were super, others remarkably bad. (Closing credits for example.) The character development was good. (The locals cut out the love scene.) It provides the basis for the next movie. But somehow I suspect that was the only reason for the entire film.

I like the slightly worn future of this movie. It was a big change from the squeaky clean Federation of other outings.

Maybe that is what made me think of Star Wars. This was super film but lacked the magic of that first film. It was bold but has to be even bolder to be a real standout.

[WhyNot]

Saw it last night on IMAX. Oh, my goodness! I don't think I stopped grinning once.

Yes, there are plot holes, yes, the science was dubious at best and ridiculous at worst. But it was FUN. Pure, sheer, unadulterated fun like I haven't seen in the theater since the eighties. Nothing cynical to see, folks.

Quinto is frakkin' amazing. He's a better Spock, dare I say it, than Nimoy. *looks around for lightening bolts*. He was perfectly able to underplay his emotional state while still completely communicating to the audience what that state was, which is quite a feat of acting to do on a six story screen.

Spoiler on a well-spoiled Spock relationship plot point:
[spoiler:26b5c4yk]I liked that I understood why Uhura was in love with him. His self-control could have come off as aloof and cold, but it didn't. I was crushin' on him, too.[/spoiler:26b5c4yk]

Whatisname who played Kirk was great, capturing the cockiness but showing us, for the first time, IMO, why Kirk was justified in his cockiness. This is a Kirk who, while certainly utilizing the talents of his team, is fiercely independent. I often felt Kirk sort of rode the coattails of his awesome crew to glory - in this movie, he's most definitely a leader.

Like Uhura a lot. As a little girl, I always wanted more Uhura, and while this actresses characterization isn't much like Nichelle Nichols', it worked for me.

I definitely recommend seeing it if you want a great fun popcorn movie. This one doesn't tackle racism or feminism or gay equality or any other "issue". It won't make you think too deeply, it's just a good time. And it was exactly what I needed right now.

[Eleanor of Aquitaine]

I just bought tickets for tomorrow afternoon! Hope there's nothing too graphic for my 9-yr-old 'cause we're dragging him along with us, even though he'd rather see the Wolverine movie.

[The Logos]

I just bought tickets for tomorrow afternoon! Hope there's nothing too graphic for my 9-yr-old 'cause we're dragging him along with us, even though he'd rather see the Wolverine movie.

If you'd consider taking your nine-year-old to see Wolverine you should have few to no issues with Star Trek. Though I haven't seen the latest installment of the X-Men series, I can say the violence is on par in terms of graphicness with the previous three movies. The innuendo and (very brief and aborted) sex scene are both mild and somewhat campy.

[Baldwin]

I watched Star Trek last evening at the local theater, and will hopefully be seeing it again at the IMAX theater at the Kennedy Space Center this afternoon. Yes, is was epic, and yes it was spectacular -- a summer blockbuster perhaps in the making. But I will need to see it again to know just how much I enjoyed it personally. The change in direction was somewhat jarring at times, and I was distracted by coming to these terms.

Final verdict: go see it. (And maybe I'll have a more comprehensive review later.)

You're gonna see Star Trek at KSC? Damn!

[The Logos]

Yes indeed. I have my tickets already in hand for a small group of us for the seven o'clock showing!

[Eleanor of Aquitaine]

[quote=The Logos]

I just bought tickets for tomorrow afternoon! Hope there's nothing too graphic for my 9-yr-old 'cause we're dragging him along with us, even though he'd rather see the Wolverine movie.

If you'd consider taking your nine-year-old to see Wolverine you should have few to no issues with Star Trek. Though I haven't seen the latest installment of the X-Men series, I can say the violence is on par in terms of graphicness with the previous three movies. The innuendo and (very brief and aborted) sex scene are both mild and somewhat campy.[/quote:2tr44c4p]Thanks. I didn't say I'd take him to see Wolverine - I said he'd rather see Wolverine. He's an X-Men fan and he's seen the first two movies, but I thought the third one was too dark so he hasn't even seen that one yet. Probably I'll wait about Wolverine until I see it first.

But you know, I wouldn't have let my older kid see any of this stuff at age 9. Either I've gotten more laid back about it, or the younger kid is not as sensitive. Probably a combination of both.

[pepperlandgirl]

Saw it last night at the 10:00 showing at the IMAX.

HOLY FUCKING SHIT! I love that movie so much. I'm going to see it at least three more times this weekend and probably more. I don't even care about the science aspect. Spock was awesome. Kirk was perfect. McCoy was perfect. Sulu was a badass motherfucker. Scotty was manic and brilliant. I LOVE THIS MOVIE SO MUCH! I kept myself away from spoilers, reviews, and interviews, so I had no idea what to expect, and I'm so glad that I did. Did I mention I love the movie SO MUCH!? Because I do. It's my new favorite everything.

[Skald the Rhymer]

I like J.J. Abrams; I like Trek. I was disposed to like this movie. I wanted to like it. I tried to like it. I tried really hard. But I couldn't.

This was not merely the worst Star Trek movie ever made, though it was.

This was not merely the worst movie ever made, though it was.

This was not merely the worst entertainment product ever made, though it was.

This was so bad that the only reasonable explanation for it is that J.J. Abrams (the director) and the screenwriters are actually Visitors, by which I mean highly evolved lizards using gee-whiz supertech to appear human and determined to exterminate all of mankind. They are Visitors, and they hate us. No, that's not right. They don't hate humans--but they do hold us in utter and infinite contempt. They made this movie to traumatize our psyches, break our spirits, break our souls. They begin by teasing us with an interesting and exciting opener, but proceed to produce forth a cinematic work of such mind-boggling vileness that to call it shit would be an insult to feces.

In short: FUCK!!!!!

[WhyNot]

Skald, would you care to be a little more vague? (What didn't you like about it?)

pepper, tell us how you really feel? (I'm with you, girl!)

Talk about polarizing!

[Skald the Rhymer]

Skald, would you care to be a little more vague? (What didn't you like about it?)

pepper, tell us how you really feel? (I'm with you, girl!)

Talk about polarizing!

WhyNot, I have rarely had so visceral a reaction to a movie. I must be pregnant or something, which is very odd given lack of a uterus. Anyway, I'll quote from my Dope rant, and add a bit:

My problem with the movie was not that it deviated so from Trek canon (apparently everything but Enterprise is now out the door, which at least means Voyager never happened ). It's that the movie was so breathtakingly stupid. It's that I actively hated Kirk. When the classic car went off the cliff, I was hoping that he'd go with it. When Spock said put him off the ship (which made no sense--don't they have brigs), I was hoping he'd be spaced. When he was being chased by the two monsters, I was hoping he'd be eaten. I actually yelled "Kill him! Kill him! Kill him and bring me his eyes!"* during the hand-to-hand fight scene at the end.

This has nothing to do with the change in actors. It has to do with the character being a snotty, arrogant, vomitous son of a bitch who was so uniformly and reliably repellent that not only is it plausible for Nyota Uhura would decline to give him the time of day, but any woman who was willing to make the beast with two backs with him may, on that evidence alone, be reasonably assumed to be suffering from profound and likely incurable mental illness.

(Incidentally, the makeup on the Orion girl was simply awful.)

HAVING SAID ALL THIS... there were good things in this movie. Three, in fact, though in two of the three cases they undercut themselves.

I liked Spock & Uhura. I thought the actors portraying them had genuine chemistry. I liked their interactions; I liked them together; I was pleased to see Spock shut down Kirk's nosy and inappropriate question about her name. But he's a commissioned officer--a freaking commander--who's teaching at the Academy and romantically involved with one of his students? That is just odious.

I also liked the bits with Spock's childhood. His remark when he turned down the Vulcan Science Academy was simply perfect. But though it's one thing for young Vulcans to be bullies, it's quite another to make PEOPLE IN AUTHORITY be blatant and explicitly racist, if you want us to sympathize with them.

Lastly I liked the opening scene on the Kelvin. But why the fuck is George Kirk's heavily-pregnant wife on the God! Damn! Ship! in the middle of a God! Damn! dangerous mission?

Why did they go out of their way to show Sulu and McCoy as both being incompetent? Seriously--if the guy at helm can't get the ship to go because he forgets what is clearly an elementary part of its operation, and you're headed into what you expect to be an important mission, that guy is going to get replaced right then. And McCoy came damn near to killing Kirk, or at least it seemed that way. And Urban was simply mimicking DeForrest Kelley's performance; he brought nothing new or interesting to the table.

And I hated [del:6wv1q50n]Wesley Crusher[/del:6wv1q50n] Pavel Chekov as well.

And why is there no god! damn! chain of command? Why is Scotty made chief engineer when he is not even posted to the ship? What the fuck is wrong with Starfleet that it's reasaonble to predict an officer can get his first command in FOUR YEARS of active duty? Why does no one understand the meaning of basic military terms? You don't ENLIST to enter a officer training academy. If Spock RESIGNED HIS FUCKING COMMISSION, he is no longer an officer; and if Spock is no longer an officer, he can't go on missions.

And human nature! Good god! Kirk insulted Spock's relationship with his dead mother on the day she died. Those two guys will never, ever, ever be friends. Spock will never want to see him again unless it is when Kirk is on fire so he can decline to piss on him.

And logic! Does Pike really have enough juice that he can obtain an appointment to the Academy on ONE DAY'S notice? Is Kirk so rich that he'll give his motocycle away? Why should Kirk listen to elder Spock's advice about destiny, given that Spock has just explained to him that, since the timeline has been altered, neither he nor Nero has knowledge of the way that history will unfold. Why does elder Spock think he knows anything that can matter? NONE OF THIS CRAP HAPPENED IN HIS LIFETIME?

But none of that matters. It's all so pretty.

Yes, there are good bits in the movie. But the dreck is of such mass that, like a black hole, it inexorably draws everything in its vicinity into itself, ripping it apart on a subatomic level and forever trapping it inside.


*Okay, to be honest, I did not say the bit about the eyes. But I did say "Kill him!" twice. The people around me must have found me very annoying, but fortunately I was bigger than they are.

I can also mention that I hated the direction. I hated the god damn flares all the time. I hated the way the fights were choreographed. Excepting the actors who played Spock and the lass who played Uhura, I hated everyone's performance.

This is not me being fanboyish. It's possible to do a total reimagining and improve on the original; take Battlestar Galactica. This was just, to my mind, a horrible, horrible movie. It's up there with I Spit on Your Grave in the hall of fame for bad movies.

[Tuckerfan]

You know, the extremes to which people either love or hate this movie (there doesn't seem to be anyone who was lukewarm about it or feels mildly about it one way or the other) reminds me an awful lot of the days after [del:22se57v6]Retard[/del:22se57v6] Revenge of the Sith. You either loved it, or hated it, and as time went by, more and more people seemed to hate it (by this I mean that people who rewatched the film discovered that they didn't like it).

It will be interesting to see if that pattern is repeated with this movie. I will say that the lack of larger issues in the film disinclines me to see it. One of the reasons I've rewatched TWoK so many times are because of issues of revenge, loss, obligations, ability, etc. I pull something new from the film each time. It doesn't sound like that this will be possible for this film.

[Baldwin]

*Okay, to be honest, I did not say the bit about the eyes. But I did say "Kill him!" twice. The people around me must have found me very annoying, but fortunately I was bigger than they are.

I hope you apologized. If not, then you're not very big at all.

I'd be astonished if Starfleet suddenly started operating like a realistic military organization. But, I'll see the movie tomorrow. Perhaps I'll hate it as well!

[Skald the Rhymer]

You know, the extremes to which people either love or hate this movie (there doesn't seem to be anyone who was lukewarm about it or feels mildly about it one way or the other) reminds me an awful lot of the days after [del:jqgcd70h]Retard[/del:jqgcd70h] Revenge of the Sith. You either loved it, or hated it, and as time went by, more and more people seemed to hate it (by this I mean that people who rewatched the film discovered that they didn't like it).

It will be interesting to see if that pattern is repeated with this movie. I will say that the lack of larger issues in the film disinclines me to see it. One of the reasons I've rewatched TWoK so many times are because of issues of revenge, loss, obligations, ability, etc. I pull something new from the film each time. It doesn't sound like that this will be possible for this film.

As I'm a big hater of this movie, II'll remark on the Star Wars thing. I thought that movie was remarkably stupid, but I enjoyed it; it had plenty of cool effects, and the fights were enjoyable despite their frequent silliness; and I actually cared about the characters. I felt for Padme; I wanted Anakin to be punished.

I felt nothing for these characters and didn't enjoy it. It simply wasn't fun.

*Okay, to be honest, I did not say the bit about the eyes. But I did say "Kill him!" twice. The people around me must have found me very annoying, but fortunately I was bigger than they are.

I hope you apologized. If not, then you're not very big at all.

Have you been posting on some other message board(s) in which I am nto a jerk?

I would have apologized if anyone had called me on it, and when I became aware of what I was doing I stopped without anybody telling me. Does that count?

[maggenpye]

Took the kid - we had a great time. She came up with some good snark ("No, he's only half an endangered species!") and we cheered in the right places.

The elderly couple in the row in front of us were grinning fit to bust when they left and told us how much they enjoyed it.

My kid laughed louder than anyone else, but she never laughed alone.

I had gasped in horror at the $24 ticket price (I seldom go to the cinema, the price tends to have gone up every time) but I felt it was well worth it by the end.

The kid liked that it was more in the spirit of the original series than the many [del:x2rzck7f]rip-offs[/del:x2rzck7f] spin off series. She also scoffed at the idea that both Kirk and Spock so conveniently met (the second time) and mentioned that those two planets were far too close to be realistic.

Good old Star Trek physics, in other words.

Me I liked it all - Karl Urban's a kiwi you know. Yay Bones! Yay Uhura, yay every one. Disengage critical reasoning and enjoy.

[What Exit?]

Geek alert, I freaking loved it. It recaptured the classic while doing the serious reboot. Casting was great!

My son loved it. He thought Scotty was the best. I'll have to read all the comments now and see if we are using spoilers in this thread.

[pepperlandgirl]

I think all of the Star Wars movies are equal part stupid, horrible, and boring, and each one reveals how little George Lucas understands of human nature, emotions, human motivations, characterization, and society. They are so horrible that a sort of grandeur creeps into them, and their continued popularity is one of life's greatest mysteries to me. If you find any character remotely interesting/intriguing in any Star Wars film, then I think we're never going to see eye to eye on what makes a good story and what simply reveals a deep-seated psychosis on the part of the writer/director.


OPEN SPOILERS AHEAD FOLKS! I'M NOT EVEN KIDDING!

Also, this is pretty much just addressing Skald and his complaints. Though that should be clear.

Anywho, I went and saw Star Trek again this afternoon, with a much more critical eye. And I still absolutely love it. I think it was pretty clear why Spock marooned him. The point was that Spock was not thinking clearly. When Spock loses his shit, he really loses it. I also think that it was meant to reveal that while Spock has a great many wonderful qualities, he is not necessarily a good Captain at that point in time. Of course, later, he makes an absolutely wonderful captain, but at that point, he was struggling with the emotions he could not control, the rage and pain, the sudden responsibility of saving a ship while struggling with the pain of his loss, and all of a sudden there's this jerk that he doesn't really like to begin with, all up in his face and threatening a violent mutiny. Instead of coolly thinking "To the brig" he completely overreacts and orders Kirk to be marooned. We're not supposed to think "Wow, what a wonderful decision he just made there!"

Also, there was nothing to indicate they were in the middle of a "God!Damn!Dangerous! mission" at the beginning of the movie, with George Kirk. Yes, they were on the "edges" of Klingon space, but there was never any indication they were to engage the Klingons or otherwise do anything dangerous. Things didn't get dangerous until Nero suddenly shows up. And it's been established several times through the canon that people on ships fall in love, get married, and even start families. Should children necessarily be on the ship? No, probably not. But to protest that there was something wrong or unlikely about the scenario pretty much ignores a whole shitload of what we know "ship life" was like.

Kirk's behavior was perfectly explained and in character. I mean, from TOS we know that Kirk has a problem with authority, believes in bending/breaking the rules, pushes things too far, and take unbelievable risks. And that's always shown as a good thing because he's not stupid about this stuff. In fact, he's brilliant. A point that is made again and again in the series in a thousand different ways. Well, what do you do when you have a brilliant, headstrong, slightly self-destructive, adrenaline-junky kid with no real father figure? It was clear in TOS that his relationships with his father and his brother shaped a good deal of who he was and the way he behaved. You remove those elements, and what do you have? Somebody who needs a tether. But also somebody who is willing to be a leader when the moment calls for it.

Actually, I was going to try to refute your comments one by one, but it seems like it'll just take the rest of my night. Of course Kirk insulted Spock on the day his mother died--he needed to push Spock so far that even Spock could not deny he was not in the right mindset for command. Spock insulted Kirk by bringing up his dead father. The ship doesn't have a clear chain of command because they're all a bunch of fucking cadets doing the best they can with a missing Captain, a dude who shouldn't even be there, and a CO who has just lost his planet and his mother and is this close to losing his mind. Also Sulu was not incompetent, he was nervous, and his small, minor mistake saved their lives. And McCoy was not shown to be incompetent either. He wasn't putting Kirk in any real danger, and it's not like Dr. McCoy always got everything perfect 100% of the time on TOS. Remember that time blinded Spock? People make mistakes on Star Trek. You know, like sometimes people have the audacity to do IRL.

Well, okay, so I refuted a few more of your points. But some of your problems almost seem like willful distortions of what actually happened on the screen. You point out that Kirk insulted Spock's mom on the day she dies, but fail to take into account what Spock must be going through and how that impacts his ability to make decisions? You can't have it both ways.

[Paul in Qatar]

OK, but there are a lot of plot holes.

Open Spoilers Ahead

Spock takes the fastest ship in the galaxy to wherever. He fails in his mission. Then he finds his super-duper ship outmatched by a huge mining barge. (Cigarette boat fights oil tanker and loses. It makes no sense.)

Spock is flying with a cargo bay full of Red Matter. Why? The stuff seems dangerous and he only needed an eyedropper of the stuff.

Do the officers of an aircraft carries go scurrying around the halls (companionways) because only they have the magic fingers to operate the Number Three airplane elevator? I hope not.

Why did Whathisname make Kirk First Officer? He was not even a graduate.

BTW, why was the Enterprise so overcrowded with extras? The bridge staff seemed huge.

I did like the miniskirts however.

[Annie]

How to haze new crew members on the Enterprise: "Hey Ensign Goober. Go ask Commander Spock about his mom. He loves that!"

[Paul in Qatar]

I still wanted to meet Mr. Jefferies.

[Dangerously Unqualified]

Spock is flying with a cargo bay full of Red Matter. Why? The stuff seems dangerous and he only needed an eyedropper of the stuff.

***Geek Speculation Alert***

I would speculate that, whatever this Red Matter substance is, it becomes exponentially less stable in smaller quantitys to the point where, when vaporized through ignition, it becomes a singularity and triggers a singularity event. Perhaps the large floating ball of the stuff was the minimum amount to maintain stability with the dropper full extracted the appropriate amount for combustion into singularity.

Or not, it's all geek speculation anyway.

Oh, and I couldn't help but notice Tyler Perry as the Starfleet Admiral. An interesting suprise, I like it.

Now if we could get Mr. Scott to kill a few aliens by smashing them in the head with a cricket bat while Sulu navigates the White Castle drive through using only thrusters then the world would be complete.

No, seriously, I loved the movie. My only issue was the flashy-ness, there were too many flashes / flares / cut scenes for me. Other than that it was all good for me.

[Baldwin]

I would have apologized if anyone had called me on it, and when I became aware of what I was doing I stopped without anybody telling me. Does that count?

Baby steps. You know you can do better. Now I'll stop giving you shit about your oxymoronic name.

I enjoyed the movie quite a bit. Since it's Star Trek, I didn't expect good physics, and wasn't surprised at the appearance of "Red Matter", a magical new form of cherry-flavored singularity syrup.

I also liked the bits with Spock's childhood. His remark when he turned down the Vulcan Science Academy was simply perfect. But though it's one thing for young Vulcans to be bullies, it's quite another to make PEOPLE IN AUTHORITY be blatant and explicitly racist, if you want us to sympathize with them.

Why do you assume we're supposed to sympathize with them? (Which, by the way, is still possible, because people (including fictional Vulcans) are complex creatures, neither all good nor all bad.)

And why is there no god! damn! chain of command? Why is Scotty made chief engineer when he is not even posted to the ship? What the fuck is wrong with Starfleet that it's reasaonble to predict an officer can get his first command in FOUR YEARS of active duty?

He said eight years, not four. But, granted, it's hard to accept the possibility of somebody going from cadet to First Officer to Captain in a day. Since it's so clearly established that we're looking at a different timeline than the one we're used to, it's actually absurdly unlikely that we'd end up with an Enterprise with all the familiar officers.

And why was Earth so defenseless?

But -- overall, had a good time. It certainly looked great. (Though I wonder -- Engineering looked like such an enormous space. I wonder if there's an official blueprint of the ship associated with the film.)

[Baldwin]

And, the transwarp transporting does sound like something generated using the Pullitoutofmyassatron.

[Baldwin]

Also, of course, there's the matter of Spock and Uhura's romantic relationship. Presumably that would have happened in either universe; so why is there no hint of it during their years of service together aboard Enterprise?

(Obviously, officer assignments have never been realistic on the shows. You don't have the same group of officers serving together on the same ship for years on end.)

[norinew]

I skimmed this thread with one eye closed. :wink:
Hubby and I are going to see it today. I'll read the thread more carefully, and report on our reactions, later.
Just FYI: He's been a Trekkie (not the nut-ball, going-to-conventions kind, just the watching-all-the-reruns kind) for years, whereas I have been lukewarm about the whole thing.

But I've read that the movie in general is a lot of fun, and a hell of a ride, even if you're not a fan, and he's been looking forward to it. So we're going.

[Skald the Rhymer]

And why is there no god! damn! chain of command? Why is Scotty made chief engineer when he is not even posted to the ship? What the fuck is wrong with Starfleet that it's reasaonble to predict an officer can get his first command in FOUR YEARS of active duty?

He said eight years, not four.

I know. Pike said somethng along the lines of "You can be a Starfleet officer in 4 years, have your own command in 8." From the context, he clearly meant, "Eight years from today." I'll grant that it's possible that he meant "eight years after graduating from the Academy," as Pike is, like everyone else in this universe, an idiot.

I would have apologized if anyone had called me on it, and when I became aware of what I was doing I stopped without anybody telling me. Does that count?

Baby steps. You know you can do better.

[/quote]

Hey, at least I've stopped telling people that if they want me to stop taking their lunch money, they should have thought ahead and grown up to be bigger.

Now I'll stop giving you shit about your oxymoronic name.

It doesn't matter, but I don't recall your ever giving me shit about that. Anyway, what's oxymoronic about it? Just because I sometimes write poetry doesn't mean I always express myself in rhyme. And, really, aren't you glad I don't?

[Baldwin]

Dude, if I recall, one thing that a skald didn't do was rhyme, except maybe for some assonance and consonance. I always assumed your name was a private joke. (Wasn't there a whole discussion on the subject back at SDMB once?)

I guess the biggest plot hole in the movie is that, given the changes wrought by the time-travelling Romulans, there's really no particular reason that the Enterprise or any of our beloved main characters should play a crucial role in what happens, any more than any other ship and crew in Starfleet. It's just a giant bundle of coincidences: Uhura apparently is the only one in Starfleet who hears, and translates, the distress call from Klingon space; Kirk happens to hear her talk about it, and makes the connection with Nero's ship, etc., etc. Of course, that's been the way it's gone in Star Trek since the beginning: the Enterprise (whatever version) gets more action than the rest of the fleet combined.

Just wanted to add that I want a pocket katana like Sulu's.

[leander]

I saw it and thought it was great. I'm not a Trekkie (or Trekker, whatever the difference...), though I've seen some shows. But watching those characters "come to life" if you will was a lot of fun.

Sure, there were lots of silly coincidences and unbelievable moments. But (correct me if I'm wrong) isn't the whole ST universe built on silly coincidences and unbelievable moments?

Lots of fun, IMHO.

[What Exit?]

I saw it and thought it was great. I'm not a Trekkie (or Trekker, whatever the difference...), though I've seen some shows. But watching those characters "come to life" if you will was a lot of fun.

Sure, there were lots of silly coincidences and unbelievable moments. But (correct me if I'm wrong) isn't the whole ST universe built on silly coincidences and unbelievable moments?

Lots of fun, IMHO.

My bolding: Indeed, most of Star Trek is based on silly coincidences but what made the Original so great was the interaction of the characters. This movie recaptured it.

[Eleanor of Aquitaine]

Did I miss something, or did they create a singularity inside Earth's solar system? And then fly away?Or did ejecting the core whatchamathingees cause an explosion that closed it?

I enjoyed the movie - the classic characters were all great. But the plot was really stupid, and the villain was boring. And I didn't think Nimoy added anything to the movie.

[The Logos]

I might be of a rare breed, to have enjoyed this movie better on a second viewing. I had found the creative direction both jarring and distracting; there really does seem to be a synthesis of 60's and 2000's aesthetics. I was not entirely pleased with all the elements of the movie (the Spock and Uhura connection looms foremost in mind), and I doubt I'd have taken a similar tract in direction in the place of Abrams. But I am generally satisfied with the story; I've always been one to find more satisfaction in being able to rationalize technobabble and plot contrivances than flogging them. But since the creative team so extensively (reportedly) consulted the astrophysics community on the science, why did they feel the need to pull "red matter" from their bums? There exist real world substances which might actually do the job: massive glueballs or quark/gluon plasma.

Did I miss something, or did they create a singularity inside Earth's solar system?

The answer to this question appears unresolved to me. Given the warp drive of Star Trek 2009 seems to have been given some performance enhancing drugs (three minutes from Earth to Vulcan?) it's entirely possible they had exited the Sol system. Even if this were not the case, a minor black hole is not necessarily an issue, even using real world physics, for a 23rd century civilization to cope with.

[leander]

My bolding: Indeed, most of Star Trek is based on silly coincidences but what made the Original so great was the interaction of the characters. This movie recaptured it.

That's a good way of putting it -- it was the way the characters interacted that really made it interesting. That + "popcorn fun" made it a really good movie.

[maggenpye]

They were creating singularities all over the place - nicely behaved singularities that ate up whole planets within minutes and then disappeared without further ado.

I want to see it again. I liked the Uhura/Spock thing (it could have happened, then been over and done with by TOS).

What was Urhra's first name? I missed it, the 10 y/o beside me was making gagging noises about the kissing, I almost wish I hadn't taken her.

[drewbert]

I'm torn. I was really digging this movie, especially the characterizations, right up until Old Spock's Three Isotons of Exposition Via Mind Meld. Then came a whole lot of quick cuts, gunfire, flip kicks, impossible leaps from great heights, and of course lots of stuff blowing up, all to support an overly complicated plot involving a villain with a pretty weak motivation. It makes me appreciate Khan that much more.

I'm not one to nitpick over every last bit of canon, but why litter the movie with cute references to other Trek movies and episodes from all eras, if in the end you're going to completely sever all continuity with anything else called Trek? [spoiler:2frt5tyo]Blowin' up planet Vulcan[/spoiler:2frt5tyo] is a direct signal from Abrams that he wants this to be a total reboot.

Time travel in Trek has got to stop. Characters just take it for granted now. Oh, you're from the future? Okay. Hi, future me, pleased to meet you. Maybe I'm just slow, but to me time travelly stuff just makes the plot harder to follow. Of course, there had to be time travel to get Nimoy involved in the picture.

So don't involve Nimoy in the picture. It's a freakin' reboot! If you're going to reboot, then reboot! And for that matter, by leaving out Old Spock, you might have saved up enough money to get rid of the gratuitous product placement, which has zero business in a Trek film.

Excellent cast, though.

[cerberus]

Sounds like Abrams et al have an equally minimal knowledge or regard for the canon, for the admittedly ridiculous fake science and for the minimal considerations for how a fleet would operate. They should have just let Michael Bay have this one. Sounds like we have 90201/'Splodey Trek.

Moreover, the people who like this movie seem to like it in direct proportion to their knowledge or expectations of plot logic, canon concepts and the like.

One would expect a working fleet, with an established protocol for experienced personnel. One would expect, along the lines of the modern professional navies, a three-to-five year professional course for officers, a ten year career path to the lt. commander/commander level, another five or so at a minimum for captain level, including some sort of command school.

This thing sounds like a pantload of monkey shit.

[Crusoe]

God forbid that people might like a movie because, you know, it's an entertaining way to spend a couple of hours.