Fluoridated water: Is it dangerous?

[dread pirate jimbo]

So here's the thing: My sister's husband is a bit of a conspiracy theory fan and always makes sure to pull out all his quackery at the family gatherings. For some stuff, like his explanations of the whole Nibiru thing, I'm content to let him yak away while I nod politely and occasionally say, "Wow, that's really interesting. I had no idea," every now and then. But then there are some other topics which he's convinced Big Business or Big Government or The Global Illuminati Conspiracy are manipulating the world to keep the little people down and destroy everything worth living for. Or some such crap. Unfortunately, being only a mediocre debater and not intimately informed on every subject under the sun, I'm not always able to refute his lunacy with proofs off the top of my head.

So after Easter supper last night, the subject turned to fluoridation and, of course, he started spouting about how fluoride is toxic and it's a heavy metal that your body can't get rid of and accumulations cause cancer and decreased IQ and there is no evidence whatsoever that fluoride even helps promote healthyy teeth in the first place. Well, since I am quite comforatble in the knowledge that his contentions are largely BS, without my having to do a bunch of research to back it up, I really didn't have any irrefutable arguments to bring to my side of the debate. And so I come to my wiser associates here looking for help. Are there any definitive links on the subject that I can send his way to refute all his craziness? I recognize that, in sufficient doses, fluoride can cause fluorosis or worse, but I'm looking for information to indicate that A) fluoride is conclusively proven to be a useful agent in building tooth enamel and B) you'll probably die of hyponatremia or something long before you'd have ingested enough fluoride from your drinking water to be dangerous.

Have at 'er! Learn me some new stuff! And thanks!

[Petrobey]

This is definitely not my area of expertise (I'm not sure I have one), but since no one else has tackled this I've done some brief research.

I'm an atheist who has wet dreams about the scientific method, so I initially came at this very pro fluoride and anti conspiracy nut jobs. The truth, however, is a little more nuanced it seems. There's a good little summary at Bad Science, always a good resource for this kind of thing. To summarise it seems that there's actually very little to back up the claimed "enormous health benefits" of putting fluoride in drinking water. In theory it looks like it should help, but we have yet to prove any results conclusively.

On the other hand there is some evidence that it might be harmful, although again nothing conclusive.

The major point is that it's quite expensive to implement. Perhaps some of this money should be spent proving its efficacy.

Anyway, thanks for the question, as it challenged my preconceptions (which is always a fantastic thing to do).

[ivan astikov]

The trouble with this fluoride in the water supply thing is, we know that individuals can have vastly different tolerance rates, so how do they decide the exact proportion to put in?

[Clayton_e]

Here's a link to a thunderdome thread I started about my town.

Rarely a day goes by where an anti-fluoride letter is printed. My favorite meme, which was mentioned in that thread, is that fluoride contains lead.


And Ivan, fluoridation sometimes refers to the removal of excess fluoride. Sounds like a wet dream for the anti-fluoridites, huh? No.. The reason fluoride use began was, IIRC, a town in the early 1900s had brown teeth but low cavity count per capita. Ah, googling found me a cite. Turns out the natural fluoride was ok for stopping the cavities but would stain teeth. Too much and we all don't die a horrible death.. Ironically, we just look like we don't brush our teeth.

And in any case, nobody's even nearing E.R. admission amounts for their tolerance rates... That is unless you have a cite of such.

[ivan astikov]

Nope. My concerns, slight tho' they were, are eased after your explanation.

[Petrobey]

Here's a link to a thunderdome thread I started about my town.

That's an interesting link, I missed that thread.

The thing is as of a few hours ago I would have responded much like most of the posters in it. But, as it seems to turns out (and I'm prepared to learn from more knowledgeable posters), the whole fluoride thing is a bit more complicated.

Let me emphasize that I'm no way agreeing with the communist plot, it's got lead in it crowd. But it doesn't seem to have been shown that the health benefits of fluoride in water justify the cost.

This is nothing like, say, the vaccination arguement, where there is a ton of evidence on one side and just bullshit on the other. Or even more so something like homoeopathy.

Once again, I'm a card carrying sceptic, but I think if we are going to fight these battles we need to get out facts straight (and (again, again) if I'm wrong please let me know).

[dread pirate jimbo]

The trouble with this fluoride in the water supply thing is, we know that individuals can have vastly different tolerance rates, so how do they decide the exact proportion to put in?

About the only things I've found with what I consider to be good info are the Wiki on fluoridation, which is thoroughly cited, and a brief article from good Ol' Cecil Adams from a couple years ago, which has no cites (although I believe he's now being counted as a cite, so maybe that's good enough). At any rate, the World Health Organization has decided that 1 mg/L is sufficient fluoride to help prevent tooth decay but not enough to cause fluorosis in the vast majority of people and certainly not toxic to anyone. The couple examples I've read about where people actually got sick were cases where large groups of people were exposed to levels in excess of 200 mg/L -- and it still only made a few dozen people sick enough to seek medical attention in those cases. I've read a couple sketchy bits about the cancer-causing properties of fluoride and that IQ lowering properties, but nothing I'd consider definitive one way or the other -- those claims strike me as being in the same category as the "vaccinations cause autism" wack-jobbery.

ETA: I'm happy to announce that our city government struck down the motion to eliminate fluoride from our drinking water. The main thrust of this current push was the cost, but I've also seen several sources that suggest that one of the main motivators for keeping fluoride in the water is to provide some preventative dental treatment to poor folk who can't otherwise afford dental care (which is not covered by our universal health care in this province because our health care system has some very stupid inconsistencies).

[Stranger On A Train]

This thread was just an excuse to instigate some Dr. Strangelove quotes, isn't it? Well, I'm wise to your game. I'm not going to do it. I'm just not going there. God willing, we will prevail, in peace and freedom from fear, and in true health, through the purity and essence of our natural fluids. God bless you all.

Stranger

[featherlou]

According to the CDC,

When used appropriately, fluoride is a safe and effective agent that can be used to prevent and control dental caries. Fluoride has contributed profoundly to the improved dental health of persons in the United States and other countries. Fluoride is needed regularly throughout life to protect teeth against tooth decay. To ensure additional gains in oral health, water fluoridation should be extended to additional communities, and fluoride toothpaste should be used widely. Adoption of these and other recommendations in this report could lead to considerable savings in public and private resources without compromising fluoride's substantial benefit of improved dental health.

I'm off to research the health dangers now.

[vison]

I won't argue that flouride use can prevent cavities. But it seems ridiculous to flouridate the water supply when 99.99999% of the water is NOT used for brushing teeth or even drinking. Most of it gets used to flush toilets, bathe, shower, wash dishes, water gardens, wash cars, fill swimming pools, etc. It would make much more sense and cost much less to simply give schoolkids toothbrushes and flouride toothpaste, even flouride drops.

[featherlou]

The cancer question:
The National Cancer Institute speaks:

Can fluoridated water cause cancer?

The possible relationship between fluoridated water and cancer has been debated at length. The debate resurfaced in 1990 when a study by the National Toxicology Program, part of the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences, showed an increased number of osteosarcomas (bone tumors) in male rats given water high in fluoride for 2 years (3). However, other studies in humans and in animals have not shown an association between fluoridated water and cancer (4).

In a February 1991 Public Health Service (PHS) report, the agency said it found no evidence of an association between fluoride and cancer in humans. The report, based on a review of more than 50 human epidemiological (population) studies produced over the past 40 years, concluded that optimal fluoridation of drinking water “does not pose a detectable cancer risk to humans” as evidenced by extensive human epidemiological data reported to date (4).

[featherlou]

I don't seem to be able to find any sites talking about any other dangers of fluoridated water that aren't obvious crackpots (with the caveat that the most common and accepted danger of fluoride is fluorosis of the teeth, which is a cosmetic issue and not actually a health hazard).