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Thread: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

  1. #51
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    I haven't ever met such a person. Maybe you run into fewer when you are not playing dungeons and dragons with children?

  2. #52
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    I see them because I teach preschool part-time. The kids, I like. It's the parents and their belief that every kid has 'issues' and must be treated as a Special Snowflake that drive me nuts.
    I'm not good at the advice. Can I offer you a sarcastic comment instead?

  3. #53
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    FYI, the 18 April edition of The Economist has an article on page 81, "Genius locus," that looks at the connection between autism and genius.

    A study published this week by Patricia Howlin of King's College, London, reinforces this point. It suggests that as many as 30% of autistic people have some sort of savant-like capability in areas such as calculation or music. Moreover, it is widely acknowledged that some of the symptoms associated with autism, including poor communication skills and an obsession with detail, are also exhibited by many creative types, particularly in the fields of science, engineering, music, drawing and painting. Indeed, there is now a cottage industry in re-interpreting the lives of geniuses in the context of suggestions that they might belong, or have belonged, on the "autistic spectrum", as the range of syndromes that include autistic symptoms is now dubbed."

  4. #54
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by TheFlame
    Is this "Indigo children" thing exclusively American? I've never once heard it mentioned other than on the Dope and other websites.
    Like I posted earlier, it's alive and well down this end of the world.

    It's not as popular as 'my snowflake has autism spectrometry, or something', but it's here.
    There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes. - Doctor Who

  5. #55
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Read the link to Indigo children and its totally Loony Tunes,if any adult who can take that tripe onboard has children then I'm not exactly stunned with amazement if the kids turn out deficient whether due to heredity reasons or just by being brought up by adults who shouldn't be walking around in public without a psychiatric nurse in attendance.

    The whole "syndrome "phenonemon is down to parents who refuse to believe that their child is lazy/not overly intelligent/badly behaved,
    (A couple of which could be laid directly at their door for poor and immature parenting)
    being exploited by those who wish to make a name for themselves in the field of social disorders.

    (And not uncommonly make money out of it aswell with authoring books,holding seminars/workshops etc.)

    The poor old, overworked harrassed school teacher is only too happy to go along with the "diagnosis" as it gets the parents off of their back and hopefully get the disruptive/slow pupil out of the classroom for more intensive tuition.

    "I'm too bone idle to get up for school on time because I dont particulary like school and my parents are too weak and ineffectual to make me"

    "Ah you must have Pre Meridian post sleep inactivity disorder"

    "Is that a disease?"

    "No but it really,really sounds like one now to the not overly bright"


    But getting back to the OP why do some people treat mental /social handicaps as being some sort of superior ability?
    Basically its down to poor logic and wishful thinking.

    Some children who are poor readers because they are Dyslexic(NOT because they are lazy you understand)turn out to be bright enough or cunning enough or have enough business acumen to make good money when they become adults.

    So the flawed logic goes as used by those who WANT to believe..............

    Person A is Dyslexic,person A is a good businessman therefore anyone who is dyslexic has superior business skills .

    As I said its pathetic logic, but for those who are dumb enough to believe in the plethora of so called new disorders and syndromes its not exactly an intellectual downturn for them.
    Thirty minutes of Googling not only doesn't make you an expert in a subject,it doesn't even make you right.Real life experience and education will win out every single time

  6. #56
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by lust4life
    "I'm too bone idle to get up for school on time because I dont particulary like school and my parents are too weak and ineffectual to make me"

    "Ah you must have Pre Meridian post sleep inactivity disorder"

    "Is that a disease?"

    "No but it really,really sounds like one now to the not overly bright"
    Ah, Pre Meridian Post Sleep Inactivity Disorder. Sounds like the result of being raised with (I'm not making this up, I swear) Child-Led Sleep Scheduling. I've had a couple of kids over the years who are late to school every day, because their parents are doing 'child-led sleep scheduling,' and they sleep late in the morning. This means they don't 'force' the child to go to bed at a certain time; the child chooses when he wants to go to bed. If the kid has one of those little meltdowns and gets cranky at 9:00 pm, the parents asks if he'd like to go to bed. If the kid says no, then they just let him stay up. Of course, he'll get a second wind, and be up till he just drops from exhaustion at midnight.

    In this day and age, when they've all got TV in their rooms, and 24-hour Nickelodeon and Disney and Cartoon Network, why bother going to bed, you know?
    I'm not good at the advice. Can I offer you a sarcastic comment instead?

  7. #57
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Can I just jump in to defend the new-agers and alt medicine types here? I've spent 10 years in that subculture, and NEVER heard of Indigo Children or Crystal Children until the internet. It's just not our thing. As near as I can tell, it's an SUV driving upper middle class, bored SAHM with a Master's Degree who's put all her career energy into her children and is slowly dying inside her perfectly helmety highlighted hair thing.

    In my experience (which includes 5 years running an alternative medicine clinic) alt medicine hippie new-age types are much more likely to refuse an autism diagnosis (because it's so overdiagnosed and it's probably just the red food coloring and processed foods or maybe a gluten allergy) than to use it as an excuse for poor behavior or for bragging rights. They may think that mainstream culture expects too much sitting still and desk/homework from small children, but it's a blanket criticism of how all children are treated, not how their own kids are treated.

    And, IMHO, anyone who uses a diagnosis as an excuse is missing the fucking point. We get a diagnosis so we can figure out the best way to try and bring people back to "normal", or something approximating it. We don't get a diagnosis so that we never have to deal with the problem again!
    Whatever became of the moment when one first knew about death? There must have been one. A moment. In childhood. When it first occurred to you that you don't go on forever. Must have been shattering. Stamped into one's memory. And yet, I can't remember it.

  8. #58
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Classic.

    Guy who sits next to me is a marginal employee. I know they've got him on a program and will probably fire him in the not too distant future. Mostly because he's late EVERY SINGLE DAY, but also because he hasn't once met his performance goals.

    As part of his 'improvement program', they had him listening in to calls with our team lead. He spent the time telling her what she was doing wrong. When she told him to knock it off, he tried to claim ADHD as the reason he was being so obnoxious.

    Um, no excuses, bubbles. Shut up and learn.
    I reserve the right to be bothered by things that don't faze you,
    and to cheerfully ignore things that bug the shit out of you.
    I am not you.

  9. #59
    Clueless but well-meaning Hatshepsut's avatar
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by WhyNot
    [Bolding mine] And, IMHO, anyone who uses a diagnosis as an excuse is missing the fucking point. We get a diagnosis so we can figure out the best way to try and bring people back to "normal", or something approximating it. We don't get a diagnosis so that we never have to deal with the problem again!
    Brilliant as always, WhyNot. As the parent of a diagnosed child (yeah, I know, they ALL are these days) I cringe at the possibility I'll be lumped in with every parent with diagnosed children who is protecting their little snowflakes from discipline, hard work, or reasonable expectations of polite behavior.

    We have always tried to clarify what's our child's issues are because a clear understanding of his problems will help us to address those problems more effectively - in other words, we can teach him how to function effectively in the real world in spite of any difficulties he has.

    "Function effectively" is often synonymous with "behave politely."

    And when you find areas of weakness, it's often a good idea to PRACTICE MORE to improve, not to avoid the things you're not good at.


    In other words, what you said, except it took me more words.

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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by fsghjvdhkjschks
    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov
    But don't the remarkable abilities of some of these autistic savants hint at the potentiality of the human brain? Some of them certainly fill me with wonder.
    In a way, I agree. In fact, I read a fascinating story in Harper's a few years ago about a guy with Asperger's who knew everything there was to know about the NY subway system-- he had literally encyclopedic knowledge about everything, practical and historical. However, instead of the city taking advantage of this incredible resource, they instead banned the guy from coming anywhere near the subway. It was fucking tragic and a waste.

    However, I see this case as somewhat different. I see Asperger's as the trigger for the guy becoming an expert, but I would argue that the guy's expertise was derived from actual effort and interest, not from some magical hand that bestowed omniscience onto him. I'm not saying that autistic people actually make the claim that they have magical insights, but I feel like that's the romantic yarn being spun by media these days. It's grating.
    You have to be a bit careful in assessing the "expertise" of people like the NY subway guy (about whom I know nothing, so take this with the appropriate quantity of salt in his case). Deep interest in a narrow topic is a hallmark of Asperger Syndrome (AS), but knowing a gazillion facts and figures is not the same as understanding the topic. AS also comes with difficulties in making that leap, so the guy might have been a walking encyclopedia of trivia, but not of much practical use, and possibly more of a nuisance to have around.

  11. #61
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by BiblioCat
    Quote Originally posted by MsRobyn
    Autism is a spectrum disorder, which means it'll explain away any bizarre behavior.
    This, exactly. It's become very easy for parents to explain away bad or bizarre behavior by saying, "Well, he's on the spectrum."
    It's become so commonplace, that just what spectrum your kid is on doesn't even need explaining.

    It makes me feel all smashie.
    Kid is on this Spectrum, kid's got game.

    And while I agree with the OP to some extent, the backlash is problematic for me. See a 32 year old woman pull into a Handicapped spot with a tag on her rear view window and get out and walk into the market? You're raging on the board about her.

    Turns out she has MS and has since she was 26 and most days can barely wipe her own bottom and negotiate the steps and by god to get into the car on a "good day" and make the market is astonishing.

    Kids have autism. It's not a gateway to an alternate universe. It's a brain-centered disease. Kind of plain and simple.

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  12. #62
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by Cartooniverse
    Quote Originally posted by BiblioCat
    Quote Originally posted by MsRobyn
    Autism is a spectrum disorder, which means it'll explain away any bizarre behavior.
    This, exactly. It's become very easy for parents to explain away bad or bizarre behavior by saying, "Well, he's on the spectrum."
    It's become so commonplace, that just what spectrum your kid is on doesn't even need explaining.

    It makes me feel all smashie.
    Kid is on this Spectrum, kid's got game.

    And while I agree with the OP to some extent, the backlash is problematic for me. See a 32 year old woman pull into a Handicapped spot with a tag on her rear view window and get out and walk into the market? You're raging on the board about her.

    Turns out she has MS and has since she was 26 and most days can barely wipe her own bottom and negotiate the steps and by god to get into the car on a "good day" and make the market is astonishing.

    Kids have autism. It's not a gateway to an alternate universe. It's a brain-centered disease. Kind of plain and simple.

    Cartooniverse
    No one's arguing that autism doesn't exist or that kids with autism shouldn't receive help. Like ADD/ADHD, though, the diagnosis can be, and sometimes is, abused. Some parents have learned that a spectrum diagnosis opens up all sorts of benefits from an automatic excuse for bad behavior to additional services under IDEA that can give kids an edge they might not have otherwise, so using that to game the system is attractive to these parents.

    Remember Blair Hornstine, who sued for valedictorian status? It's the same general thing.
    There is more than one way to burn a book. And the world is full of people running about with lit matches. -- Ray Bradbury's "Coda"

  13. #63
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by danceswithcats
    Quote Originally posted by cowgirl
    Quote Originally posted by Winston Smith
    I don't know, but I do know this: my mother-in-law has got neighbors that have a12-year-old autistic son, and the kid is a fucking menace. He's always running around the neighborhood unsupervised. Last weekend he drove his bicycle full spped into the side of my sister-in-laws car - fortunately she was parked and hadn't yet gotten the baby out. Also last week, my mother-in-law heard a loud banging sound and found him in her back yard, hitting her air conditioner with a fucking baseball bat. WTF???

    It's a nice quiet cul-de-sac and all, but I think they need to watch him a little more closely before he gets hurt or causes some serios property damage. Or both. I can't imagine the mayhem that he'd commit if he ever found some hedge trimmers, or an axe. Jeez.
    To me, this really demonstrates the need for positive representations of people with autism.
    The question remains: is the child in Winston's example actually autistic, or is he merely a little hellion? IMO, too many people are ready to explain away the latter, citing the former.
    He's autistic, unless he's been misdiagnosed. We're friends with the whole family and have known them for 8 or 10 years. And to kill two birds with one stone, I don't think autism needs positive spin. It's impossible to accurately portray this disease because it encompasses a whole array of ilnesses that range from mild social maladjustment to 'retardation'. It's become a sort of catch-all diagnosis for everything in between. A child that would have been called slow, or retarded 40 years ago may end up being labeled autistic now.

    My old boss' kid was diagnosed as autistic by (multiple) Army docs when he was 4. A couple years later, they finally had decent health insurance and brought him to a 'real' doctor (non-army) who discover (get this) the kid wasn't autistic at all - had ear infections and was 90% deaf. They attributed all his symptoms incorrectly to autism because it fit (because the definition is so broad and vague). They surgically repaired his ears, got his hearing back, and started working on undoing the setbacks of being deaf but undiagnosed.

  14. #64
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Life's gonna get real interesting in 10-15 years when all these Indigo/Crystal Special Snowflakes start getting old enough for the real world to slap them in the face.
    Why won't those stupid idiots let me join their crappy club for jerks?

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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by WhyNot
    Can I just jump in to defend the new-agers and alt medicine types here? I've spent 10 years in that subculture, and NEVER heard of Indigo Children or Crystal Children until the internet. It's just not our thing. As near as I can tell, it's an SUV driving upper middle class, bored SAHM with a Master's Degree who's put all her career energy into her children and is slowly dying inside her perfectly helmety highlighted hair thing.
    You hang with different new-age alt-medicine types than I do, then. Indigo/Crystal Children are the big thing out here in the pagan community, and from what I can tell, it's because the parents want to run around drinking mead and drumming naked (in the woods, if possible), and don't want to actually interact with their children who are screaming their heads off while yanking down shelves of books and other heavy objects. The amount of non-existent parenting in the the community is astonishing. Of course, I don't have children, so I don't get to have an opinion.

    Quote Originally posted by WhyNot
    In my experience (which includes 5 years running an alternative medicine clinic) alt medicine hippie new-age types are much more likely to refuse an autism diagnosis (because it's so overdiagnosed and it's probably just the red food coloring and processed foods or maybe a gluten allergy) than to use it as an excuse for poor behavior or for bragging rights. They may think that mainstream culture expects too much sitting still and desk/homework from small children, but it's a blanket criticism of how all children are treated, not how their own kids are treated.
    Eh, I've seen both. I've seen pagan parents embrace the autism spectrum to explain why their child won't bath for months at a time (and why they won't force him/her), or why the child can't be told "no" when the child is pawing and squeezing at my breasts and who tries to slug me when I attempt to push her hands away (this is a girl of 8, by the way, who is not mentally retarded and in my M.A. in Clinical Psychology experience, does not have autism, but a terminal case of "spoiledbratitis"). I also had to practically threaten one of my former covenmates with DPS because her then-three-year-old son was not responding to any sounds before she got him assessed for either deafness or autism (turns out it was the latter, for which she now is being berated by the community for having him vaccinated).

    Quote Originally posted by WhyNot
    And, IMHO, anyone who uses a diagnosis as an excuse is missing the fucking point. We get a diagnosis so we can figure out the best way to try and bring people back to "normal", or something approximating it. We don't get a diagnosis so that we never have to deal with the problem again!
    Agreed 100% with you here, except that's not what I am seeing in the new-age/pagan/alt-medicine community out here. It's being seen as a difference to be celebrated and perpetuated, otherwise you're stifling the little ones' unique individuality.

  16. #66
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by kolga
    You hang with different new-age alt-medicine types than I do, then. Indigo/Crystal Children are the big thing out here in the pagan community, and from what I can tell, it's because the parents want to run around drinking mead and drumming naked (in the woods, if possible), and don't want to actually interact with their children who are screaming their heads off while yanking down shelves of books and other heavy objects. The amount of non-existent parenting in the the community is astonishing. Of course, I don't have children, so I don't get to have an opinion.
    I think we tend to lose those kinds of people to Boulder. No, I'm not kidding. (The childless ones we lose to Asheville.) Chicago pagans, while not perfect by any means, do seem more reasonable and grounded people in general. They like their drama and witch wars, but their parenting is positively conservative.
    Whatever became of the moment when one first knew about death? There must have been one. A moment. In childhood. When it first occurred to you that you don't go on forever. Must have been shattering. Stamped into one's memory. And yet, I can't remember it.

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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by WhyNot
    I think we tend to lose those kinds of people to Boulder. No, I'm not kidding. (The childless ones we lose to Asheville.) Chicago pagans, while not perfect by any means, do seem more reasonable and grounded people in general. They like their drama and witch wars, but their parenting is positively conservative.
    Then QUIT sending them our way! Yea, the pagan community out here is...interesting. For certain definitions of interesting.

    This is a timely thread for me - I'm covering autism in my Abnormal Psychology class today, and fully expect some anti-vaccine propaganda from a particular student. I'm armed for bear.

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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by WhyNot
    Quote Originally posted by kolga
    You hang with different new-age alt-medicine types than I do, then. Indigo/Crystal Children are the big thing out here in the pagan community, and from what I can tell, it's because the parents want to run around drinking mead and drumming naked (in the woods, if possible), and don't want to actually interact with their children who are screaming their heads off while yanking down shelves of books and other heavy objects. The amount of non-existent parenting in the the community is astonishing. Of course, I don't have children, so I don't get to have an opinion.
    I think we tend to lose those kinds of people to Boulder. No, I'm not kidding. (The childless ones we lose to Asheville.) Chicago pagans, while not perfect by any means, do seem more reasonable and grounded people in general. They like their drama and witch wars, but their parenting is positively conservative.
    It's that midwest sensibility. My best friend moved to the San Francisco area after college, partly due to a strong interest in alternative lifestyles, and frequently found herself exasperated with the culture there.

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    Default SUCCESS! I changed one mind!

    I held my once-a-semester lecture on autism in my Abnormal Psychology class yesterday, and (mostly) calmly, rationally walked my students through the research, starting with Wakefield's original study (and the problems therein), covered all the data and evidence in my 2-inch-thick file of journal article reprints of the various studies over the past decade, and answered questions. After class, a student informed me that his mother had convinced him that vaccines were Teh Ebil and he'd always dismissed any claims to the contrary, but my presentation of the information had been so thorough that he'd realized his mother was wrong.

    One step at a time, I guess.

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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    That's very heartening, kolga. I heard on the news one day this week that Calgary has a 86% vaccination rate for kids, but it is not mandatory. My thought on hearing that was, "That's good, but what's going on with that other 14%? And why isn't it mandatory, with a religious opt-out?" Darned free society.

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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    BiblioCat: Are you shitting me? Child-Led Sleep Scheduling?!? That is THE stupidest thing I've ever heard of from the "parenting by not parenting" camp. Wow.

    Thank you for lowering my opinion of my fellow human being even more, 'cuz if even one parent on this planet actually subscribes to that mode of child-rearing, truly we are on the way to destruction. We have no chance to survive.
    Hell is other people.

  22. #72
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by dread pirate jimbo
    Thank you for lowering my opinion of my fellow human being even more, 'cuz if even one parent on this planet actually subscribes to that mode of child-rearing, truly we are on the way to destruction.
    Uh, there are a lot more parents than one on this planet that literally fuck their children.

    I know it's fun to get all outraged with everyone else but maybe try to learn about proportion.

  23. #73
    Oliphaunt dread pirate jimbo's avatar
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by Excalibur
    Quote Originally posted by dread pirate jimbo
    Thank you for lowering my opinion of my fellow human being even more, 'cuz if even one parent on this planet actually subscribes to that mode of child-rearing, truly we are on the way to destruction.
    Uh, there are a lot more parents than one on this planet that literally fuck their children.

    I know it's fun to get all outraged with everyone else but maybe try to learn about proportion.
    It's all a rich tapestry of bad. I just don't like adding to the long, long list. So I think I'll just continue to choose for myself the things to get outraged over, thanks.
    Hell is other people.

  24. #74
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by WhyNot
    I think we tend to lose those kinds of people to Boulder. No, I'm not kidding. (The childless ones we lose to Asheville.) Chicago pagans, while not perfect by any means, do seem more reasonable and grounded people in general. They like their drama and witch wars, but their parenting is positively conservative.
    Elgin: Ashland of the Plains.

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  25. #75
    Oliphaunt featherlou's avatar
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by Excalibur
    <snip>
    I know it's fun to get all outraged with everyone else but maybe try to learn about proportion.
    That would seriously reduce the fun.

  26. #76
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by dread pirate jimbo
    BiblioCat: Are you shitting me? Child-Led Sleep Scheduling?!? That is THE stupidest thing I've ever heard of from the "parenting by not parenting" camp. Wow..
    Sorry. I wish I was kidding. It's all part of the new Cult of The Child thing.
    I'm not good at the advice. Can I offer you a sarcastic comment instead?

  27. #77
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by kolga
    I really did not bother trying to have any sort of conversation with her about why human evolution is headed toward a point where being self-sufficient and interactive with one's environment have evolved OUT of the human species.
    That's actually the easy part (if these "Indigo Children" actually existed). Human evolution is, if anything, going downhill, not up, because natural selection is no longer occurring. Thrown any crippled babies off a cliff lately? Seen myopic people dying of starvation in the streets? Burned any schizophrenics at the stake? These kinds of things, including autism, are no longer as much of a disadvantage because we take care of these people and treat them, but not their genes. However, I don't think this is ever going to be a very serious problem because we will have perfected genetic engineering before anywhere near the required length of time takes place for natural evolution.
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Eh, I had former friends who wouldn't put their 2.5 year old son to bed no matter how many tantrums he had, no matter who he hit or what he destroyed, or how late he stayed up, because...you know, he'll just cry if we try to put him to bed. And he won't stay there.

    Lectured me about how I didn't know anything about kids and they knew everything they needed to know, so therefore I'd better never say another word about how to raise their son; because I innocently suggested that maybe he was tired and should go to bed after he punched me, punched dad and threw a toy at the piano after 11pm one night.

    Then of course, daddy called me at work 3 days later (personal calls = NO) to complain about how he was 3 hours late because the brat refused to go to bed the night before.

    It's not the kid, it's the dumbass parents who spend more time and energy trying to excuse their lack of parental effort than the actual effort would entail.
    I reserve the right to be bothered by things that don't faze you,
    and to cheerfully ignore things that bug the shit out of you.
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  29. #79
    Oliphaunt dread pirate jimbo's avatar
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Now wait just a damn minute. This story is suggesting that autism may be caused by differences in brain shape and size in children.

    Using MRI brain scans, researchers found that the area of the brain called the amygdala was, on average, 13 percent larger in young children with autism, compared with control group of children without autism.
    I'm no doctor, but I don't think vaccinations cause your amygdala to grow. How can this be possible? I mean, if you can't trust the information Jenny McCarthy gives you, who can you trust?

    Hell is other people.

  30. #80
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    Default Re: SUCCESS! I changed one mind!

    Quote Originally posted by kolga
    I held my once-a-semester lecture on autism in my Abnormal Psychology class yesterday, and (mostly) calmly, rationally walked my students through the research, starting with Wakefield's original study (and the problems therein), covered all the data and evidence in my 2-inch-thick file of journal article reprints of the various studies over the past decade, and answered questions. After class, a student informed me that his mother had convinced him that vaccines were Teh Ebil and he'd always dismissed any claims to the contrary, but my presentation of the information had been so thorough that he'd realized his mother was wrong.

    One step at a time, I guess.
    I'd love to have been in your class and heard your lecture. Can you recommend a good source for info supporting your side? I find way more anti-vax info on the nets than I do (good) anti-anti-vax info...
    AKA xanthous

  31. #81
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by Vox Imperatoris
    Quote Originally posted by kolga
    I really did not bother trying to have any sort of conversation with her about why human evolution is headed toward a point where being self-sufficient and interactive with one's environment have evolved OUT of the human species.
    That's actually the easy part (if these "Indigo Children" actually existed). Human evolution is, if anything, going downhill, not up, because natural selection is no longer occurring. Thrown any crippled babies off a cliff lately? Seen myopic people dying of starvation in the streets? Burned any schizophrenics at the stake? These kinds of things, including autism, are no longer as much of a disadvantage because we take care of these people and treat them, but not their genes. However, I don't think this is ever going to be a very serious problem because we will have perfected genetic engineering before anywhere near the required length of time takes place for natural evolution.
    As long as there is genetic variation in a population and some people having more progeny than others, there is natural selection going on. It's just selecting for different traits (primarily disease resistance and resistance to birth control).

  32. #82
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by Thongrrrl14
    As long as there is genetic variation in a population and some people having more progeny than others, there is natural selection going on. It's just selecting for different traits (primarily disease resistance and resistance to birth control).
    Naturally.

    Can I see a picture of you in your thong?

  33. #83
    Libertarian Autocrat Vox Imperatoris's avatar
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by Thongrrrl14
    Quote Originally posted by Vox Imperatoris
    Quote Originally posted by kolga
    I really did not bother trying to have any sort of conversation with her about why human evolution is headed toward a point where being self-sufficient and interactive with one's environment have evolved OUT of the human species.
    That's actually the easy part (if these "Indigo Children" actually existed). Human evolution is, if anything, going downhill, not up, because natural selection is no longer occurring. Thrown any crippled babies off a cliff lately? Seen myopic people dying of starvation in the streets? Burned any schizophrenics at the stake? These kinds of things, including autism, are no longer as much of a disadvantage because we take care of these people and treat them, but not their genes. However, I don't think this is ever going to be a very serious problem because we will have perfected genetic engineering before anywhere near the required length of time takes place for natural evolution.
    As long as there is genetic variation in a population and some people having more progeny than others, there is natural selection going on. It's just selecting for different traits (primarily disease resistance and resistance to birth control).
    I did phrase that badly. Natural selection for traditionally "positive" traits is no longer occurring because of these are no longer essential to survival, e.g. eyesight, hearing, normal height, sanity, intelligence, and muscularity are no longer essential for your survival and reproduction. Besides, natural selection happens over a far longer period of time than the mere 8,000 years of human history. It's just not very relevant.
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  34. #84
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by Vox Imperatoris
    I did phrase that badly. Natural selection for traditionally "positive" traits is no longer occurring because of these are no longer essential to survival, e.g. eyesight, hearing, normal height, sanity, intelligence, and muscularity are no longer essential for your survival and reproduction. Besides, natural selection happens over a far longer period of time than the mere 8,000 years of human history. It's just not very relevant.
    You have a poor understanding of evolution and natural selection.

    First, your claiming that good eyesight, hearing, etc. are "positive traits" while disease resistance and other traits necessary to reproduce effectively are not shows a view of evolution as a process towards a goal that you have defined as "better". It's nothing of the sort. Evolution is just the gradual changes in what traits are held by a population, not an attempt to adapt to a goal, but just the natural consequence of a diverse population passing on it's traits in a non-random manner.

    Secondly, traits such as good eyesight, intelligence, and size are obviously still providing evolutionary advantages, as we do not appear to be losing them. When one trait becomes overwhelmingly more important for ability to pass on it's DNA, traits that are not important diminish. It's why domestic animals tend to have poor eyesight and other health problems. We did not breed them to have bad vision, we bred them to be docile, to have lots of meat, and/or to produce lots of milk. Because we had selection for those traits and not for good vision or intelligence, those traits diminished.

    We have little evidence that human vision, strength, or intelligence is less than it was before civilization, which means that those traits must still be selected for. Maintaining a trait needs "maintenance" or else it fades.

    Finally, 8000 years is a not an insignificant time. Humans have adapted quite a bit in that time. The Inuit and other natives of the far north have a large number of physical adaptations to their climate, and they haven't been living there too much longer than 8000 years. The people of the Americas had been separated from the rest of the human population only about 14,000 years, yet their ability to resist disease was radically different from that of Eurasians. We've also seen large changes in our cognitive abilities in a rather short time. There is a strong argument that raising IQ scores have more to do with changes in the learning envirnoment and not physical changes in the brain, but it is not conclusive. Records from European monasteries from only around a thousand years ago indicate that dyslexia was far more common then than it is now. And many populations that have remained at the hunter gatherer stage have a far higher occurrence of eidetic memory than civilized peoples, with only about 8000 years of difference between them. If you want to go with non-human examples, polar bears had the same kind of molars as brown bears only 10,000 years ago, their dentition has evolved significantly since then. There are lakes in Africa less than 10,000 years old that have hundreds of extremely diverse species of fish that have evolved from a common ancestor in only that length of time.

    Evolution is constantly happening and it is not slowing down.

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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by Excalibur
    Quote Originally posted by Thongrrrl14
    As long as there is genetic variation in a population and some people having more progeny than others, there is natural selection going on. It's just selecting for different traits (primarily disease resistance and resistance to birth control).
    Naturally.

    Can I see a picture of you in your thong?
    No, it would be a crime for me to transmit one.

  36. #86
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by Vox Imperatoris
    Quote Originally posted by kolga
    I really did not bother trying to have any sort of conversation with her about why human evolution is headed toward a point where being self-sufficient and interactive with one's environment have evolved OUT of the human species.
    That's actually the easy part (if these "Indigo Children" actually existed). Human evolution is, if anything, going downhill, not up, because natural selection is no longer occurring. Thrown any crippled babies off a cliff lately? Seen myopic people dying of starvation in the streets? Burned any schizophrenics at the stake?
    You see schizophrenic people dying of starvation on the street all the time, to mix your metaphors. I'm not sure where you get your ideas on evolution, but it's not some form of naturally occurring eugenics practiced by mysterious deities. It's just random change. In our case it produced big brains, which are pretty cool, but elephants might consider trunked-ness as the pinnacle of the species since nobody else managed to evolve such an elegant device. Horseshoe crabs might argue that their design is clearly the best because it hasn't had to change in millions of years, and by comparison the mental changes in the naked ape just demonstrate its physical unsuitability for every niche it occupies. Evolution doesn't have a direction.

  37. #87
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by Alien Crouton
    You see schizophrenic people dying of starvation on the street all the time, to mix your metaphors.
    They don't even have to die to be removed from the gene pool, just reproduce less than average. People with a trait that causes them to die without producing any viable progeny are just as dead to natural selection as those who died in infancy.

    The internet is a pretty powerful factor in the natural selection of humans. It brings together people who otherwise would be unable to find a mate. It will be interesting to see what results...probably a lot more furries and Trekkies.

  38. #88
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by Thongrrrl14
    The internet is a pretty powerful factor in the natural selection of humans. It brings together people who otherwise would be unable to find a mate. It will be interesting to see what results...probably a lot more furries and Trekkies.
    Well, if there's a genetic component to furryness there's no reason we can't fix it scientifically.

  39. #89
    Oliphaunt featherlou's avatar
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by Thongrrrl14
    <snip>
    The internet is a pretty powerful factor in the natural selection of humans. It brings together people who otherwise would be unable to find a mate. It will be interesting to see what results...probably a lot more furries and Trekkies.
    That's an interesting idea. Do you think enough people are finding mates via internet who otherwise wouldn't have to make it significant?

  40. #90
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by featherlou
    Quote Originally posted by Thongrrrl14
    <snip>
    The internet is a pretty powerful factor in the natural selection of humans. It brings together people who otherwise would be unable to find a mate. It will be interesting to see what results...probably a lot more furries and Trekkies.
    That's an interesting idea. Do you think enough people are finding mates via internet who otherwise wouldn't have to make it significant?
    I think it probably is significant. When I was young, before the internet was popular, I was involved in a few hobbies with high levels of nerdiness in a small town (science fiction fandom and role-playing games). I knew a lot of guys who were bachelors well into their 40s or later, who were heterosexual and wanted to find a woman, but couldn't find any local women who accepted their weirdness and were very unsuccessful with dating. I'm sure many of them would have died virgins.

    I think in larger cities, conventions gave some of these people a chance to meet females who would mate with them, and there is also a slim chance of them creating progeny through prostitution, but in the past a man who obsessed about hobbies and lacked social skills (types who would probably be diagnosed as high functioning autistics today) were much less likely to reproduce than those who did not - and it does not have to be a 100% inability to reproduce to make a difference. Even a difference of only a few percentage points can make a big difference over a few generations.

    Nowadays, I know guys who could never have gotten a date back in the 70s and 80s who have equally nerdy wives and children. Invariably they met their wife through the internet.

  41. #91
    Go Phillies !! Cartooniverse's avatar
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by Thongrrrl14
    No, it would be a crime for me to transmit one.
    With all due respect, a few posts down from this one, you said
    When I was young, before the internet was popular, I was involved in a few hobbies with high levels of nerdiness in a small town (science fiction fandom and role-playing games). I knew a lot of guys who were bachelors well into their 40s or later, who were heterosexual and wanted to find a woman, but couldn't find any local women who accepted their weirdness and were very unsuccessful with dating. I'm sure many of them would have died virgins.
    I was into AOL pretty heavily around 1996. Fair to say the Internet had gained a lot of traction by 1996. That was 13 years ago. Prior to around that time, you were young - but old enough to be involved in hobbies with high levels of nerdiness.

    That'd mean you were a very very bright gamer at.... 8? 10? Maybe. But at that age, how aware would you have been of men in their 40's who couldn't get a girl? This tells us you were likely in your late teens in 1996. At least...14? 15? 14 + 13 = 27.

    By reason, it appears you might be a 27-ish year old adult woman. Why do you think it is a crime to email someone a picture of you in your underpants? I'm not interested in one, trust me. But we're sticklers for accuracy and truth around these parts.

    It's not really possible for you to be an underage woman and for you to have been around back then as well.

    I'm just sayin'. It's interesting. Get's a person wondering.

    And, of course, welcome to DoMeBo !!!!

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  42. #92
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Quote Originally posted by Cartooniverse
    . . . typical cartooniverse-style nuttery . . .
    Holy shit, dude. She's not really underage. It is extremely obvious that she is not.

    Sorry if that is disappointing to you.

  43. #93
    Go Phillies !! Cartooniverse's avatar
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    Default Re: The weird infatuation our society suddenly has with autism

    Not hardly, as I said in my post. I have zero interest in nudie pix of DoMeBoers. Was just doing some math, is all.

    Hey, I'm darned PROUD of that typical Cartooniverse-style nuttery !!!

    Separates the wheat from the chaff, doncha know.
    If you want to kiss the sky, you'd better learn how to kneel.

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