Parts of Tolkien in which the narrator is full of crap

[Skald the Rhymer]

[quote=eleanorigby]

... I mean, you introduced me to the song "Eleanor Rigby." ...

Wait.

You mean until you encountered the poster eleanorigby you never heard of/heard the song "Eleanor Rigby" by the Beatles? From the 1966 album Revolver? Considered one of the seminal albums in rock history? Also on the soundtrack of the movie Yellow Submarine? Ranked 137 on Rolling Stone's 500 greatest songs of all time? You never heard of it? Like, never?

How...who....where...[faints in disbelief]

Shocking and somewhat disheartening, isn't it? I don't get it myself. How could you NOT have heard the Beatle's original at some point growing up? We are one generation away from people who think that Beatles are insects. The mind reels. :shock:[/quote:3fg2840p]


I'm going to pretend you're being serious and answer the question, mostly becuse I don't feel like going home.

I was raised in what most of you would call a fundamentalist Christian household, though actually my family's church was Pentecostoal. We didn't listen to rock music, pop music, soul music, jazz, the blues. We didn't go to movies. My sisters weren't allowed to wear pants. So, though I was born in '69, I simply never encounterered the Beatles growing up.

[Glazer]

"Any sufficiently advanced pastry is indistinguishable from a side of bacon wrapped in chocolate and deep-fried in corn oil."

Now that's funny!

But, see, Sam and Frodo ate the same lembas and all they did was walk. They should each weigh like 900 pounds.

But they didn't eat as much because they had to make it last longer. Besides Hobbits normally eat 10 times a day even when all they do is bathe.

[Morgyn]

The elves of Lorien clearly stated that a single piece (was it a wafer? I don't have my books at work) of lembas was sufficient to feed even one of the "big men of Gondor" through a full day's hard labour. I think Frodo or Sam noted after the breaking of the Fellowship that it seemed to be even more effective if it was the only thing you ate (i.e., no supplementing with berries, conies, or nice fisssshees). Therefore, I expect that Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli wouldn't need to eat more than 2 or 3 of them during each day of their run. Lembas was small, compact, and they had quite a bit of it. No need to hunt, they were already super-fueled.

Their bathroom habits, on the other hand, might bear some examining. You ever notice that none of these epics ever mention someone having to stop to attend to necessities? Why is it that the heroes (or villains, even) are never caught with their pants, literally, down?

The first paragraph is correct. Lembas was if you will allow, Elven Magic. It could fuel their needs.

As to bathroom habits, it happened all the time, there is just never a need to mention it unless something happens. Would you record when you took a whiz in your travel journal? Do you think Patton's attaché logged every time the General took a shit?

Yeah, but, the thing is, the Fellowship is trying to sneak. They don't want enemies to know they're around. Even if they pick up every scrap of food, there's one thing that's going to leave evidence that Someone Was Here unless they take enough time to conceal that evidence so carefully it can't be found. But they're in a hurry, and they already know there are unfriendlys about. So how do they hide the scat well enough they can't be tracked? Especially after they get into Moria?

It's a stupid, niggling detail, and for some reason, it's always bothered me.

But they didn't eat as much because they had to make it last longer. Besides Hobbits normally eat 10 times a day even when all they do is bathe.

Also, the lembas they had was broken, even though it remained in the leaf wrappings. And everyone knows that you can't gain weight from broken food, 'cause all the weight gaining calories leak out.

[Hellestal]

My nomination:

Only once before have I seen them from afar in waking life, but I know them and their names, for under them lies Khazad-dum, the Dwarrowdelf, that is now called the Black Pit, Moria in the Elvish tongue. Yonder stands Barazinbar, the Redhorn, cruel Caradhras; and beyond him are Silvertine and Cloudyhead: Celebdil the White, and Fanuidhol the Grey, that we call Zirakzigil and Bundushathur.

No. Just no.

There's no need to give nine different names for three different mountains. For the last sentence there, a full third of the words are proper names in different languages. The narrator is making that shit up. If those assholes actually talked like that, there would be no stop to it. They'd go on at similar length about their shoes, naval lint, and physical attributes: "My penis, named Kuntenfillr in the dwarfish, is known as Örgzmgvir in Sindarin, and Dreadcock in the tongues of Men. In the tongues of Women, it is referred to as Delicious and The Most Magnificent Thing I've Ever Seen." Other than the subject matter, that sort of quote could fit right in.

[eleanorigby]

Oh, thankyouthankyouthankyou. I could never quite put my finger on why my eyes glazed over certain passages. You're right--there is no need for so many names for things. IMO, JRRT was showing off his love of language and his creative ability. If those mountains had to have that many names, he needed to have more races of creatures capable of naming OR his history had to go a whole lot further back than it does (and even then, the ancient names would not be remembered so easily, but would be footnotes in a scholarly tome somewhere).

[Laughing Lagomorph]

I'm going to pretend you're being serious and answer the question, mostly becuse I don't feel like going home.

I was raised in what most of you would call a fundamentalist Christian household, though actually my family's church was Pentecostoal. We didn't listen to rock music, pop music, soul music, jazz, the blues. We didn't go to movies. My sisters weren't allowed to wear pants. So, though I was born in '69, I simply never encounterered the Beatles growing up.

Well that explanation certainly takes care of the years 1969 to, say, 1987, but what about the 20+ years since? You mean, when you moved out of the house, you didn't embark on a decades-long self education project on the finer points of sex, drugs, and rock and roll?

[Laughing Lagomorph]

...Yeah, but, the thing is, the Fellowship is trying to sneak. They don't want enemies to know they're around. Even if they pick up every scrap of food, there's one thing that's going to leave evidence that Someone Was Here unless they take enough time to conceal that evidence so carefully it can't be found. But they're in a hurry, and they already know there are unfriendlys about. So how do they hide the scat well enough they can't be tracked? Especially after they get into Moria?

It's a stupid, niggling detail, and for some reason, it's always bothered me.

In Moria they could have used all the cracks and chasms that were described. Heck, I imagine much of the original facilities were still intact.

It seems from the book that by the time the Fellowship got there there weren't too many baddies in the Western part of Moria (they probably couldn't open that door from the outside). It was only once they got near the Eastern exit they ran into trouble.

[Glazer]

It was only once they got near the Eastern exit they ran into trouble.

By then they where shitting there pants. :shock: :?

[terrifel]

If those mountains had to have that many names, he needed to have more races of creatures capable of naming OR his history had to go a whole lot further back than it does (and even then, the ancient names would not be remembered so easily, but would be footnotes in a scholarly tome somewhere).

But that's exactly what the situation was. There were three races present (four, if you count Hobbits separately), and Gimli gives the name of each mountain in Dwarvish, Elvish, and Mannish.

And as to ancient names... Legolas and Gandalf were effectively ageless, Gimli was from a relatively long-lived race, and Aragorn was from one of the longer-lived families of Men. Anyway, Dwarf-culture is evidently very respectful about names. Of course they're going to know all the names of the mountains around Moria.

[eleanorigby]

But that's exactly what the situation was. There were three races present (four, if you count Hobbits separately), and Gimli gives the name of each mountain in Dwarvish, Elvish, and Mannish.

Well, Gimli should have stuck them into an index somewhere. It breaks the momentum and the story line.

And as to ancient names... Legolas and Gandalf were effectively ageless, Gimli was from a relatively long-lived race, and Aragorn was from one of the longer-lived families of Men. Anyway, Dwarf-culture is evidently very respectful about names. Of course they're going to know all the names of the mountains around Moria.

Yes, but on an adventure such as the one they had, there really isn't time to debate nomenclature and lecture on it etc. Just MO.

[Laughing Lagomorph]

WRT the OP: I never believed the parts of The Hobbit where Gandalf is portrayed as frightened (of the Wargs) or self important (the book describes him as never minding telling stories that put himself in a good light) and the dwarves as cowardly, bumbling, or helpless.

I think Bilbo put that in his own diary because he chose to make himself seem better in comparison to the others, never knowing that so many people would end up reading it.

[terrifel]

Well, Gimli should have stuck them into an index somewhere. It breaks the momentum and the story line.

Oh pshaw, he was just showing off a bit. Remember, he'd just spent two months at Rivendell; clearly he was a bit intimidated, and eager to demonstrate that the Dwarves were also capable of great cultural achievements. (This was before he embraced the realization that he was queer for Elves.) Also, he was still hoping against hope that Oin, Balin and the other Dwarves might be found alive in Moria. Those mountains, and the route they would choose over or under them, had plainly been on his mind a lot.

Yes, but on an adventure such as the one they had, there really isn't time to debate nomenclature and lecture on it etc. Just MO.

No time? They'd already been walking for something like 150 miles. They could either share background exposition, or else listen to Pippin asking, "Are we there yet?" every 20 minutes or so.

(COMPANY WALKS THROUGH HOLLIN)

ARAGORN: Sure is quiet here in Hollin.

REST OF COMPANY: Yep. Sure is. (ETC.)

GANDALF: Too quiet.

(LONG PAUSE)

LEGOLAS: These rocks are lonely.

(COMPANY WALKS ANOTHER 40 MILES)

SAM: Dammit, I forgot to bring some rope.

(LONG PAUSE)

PIPPIN: Are we there yet?

(COMPANY THROWS ROCKS AT PIPPIN)

[Fish]

Or more like this:

PIPPIN: Is that the mountain we're going to?

GANDALF: No.

PIPPIN: Is that mountain?

GANDALF. No.

PIPPIN: Are you sure?

GANDALF: Yes.

PIPPIN: What's it called, then?

GANDALF: It is called Ellabendar by the Elves.

PIPPIN: What's it called by that one Ring guy who made the thing?

GANDALF: I have no fucking idea, Pippin. Shut up.

PIPPIN: What about the mountain next to it? Is that the mountain?

(COMPANY THROWS ROCKS AT PIPPIN)

[terrifel]

I like your version better, Fish.

Surely that's the real reason why Gimli named every landscape feature visible, loudly and obviously.

[What Exit?]

Or more like this:

PIPPIN: Is that the mountain we're going to?

GANDALF: No.

PIPPIN: Is that mountain?

GANDALF. No.

PIPPIN: Are you sure?

GANDALF: Yes.

PIPPIN: What's it called, then?

GANDALF: It is called Ellabendar by the Elves.

PIPPIN: What's it called by that one Ring guy who made the thing?

GANDALF: I have no fucking idea, Pippin. Shut up.

PIPPIN: What about the mountain next to it? Is that the mountain?

(COMPANY THROWS ROCKS AT PIPPIN)

You saw the notes from the Red Book that the Professor did not include in the LotR too? I always found that leaving that last passage out was odd, considering how short Gandalf was with the "Fool of a Took" later. This really showed how exasperating Pip could be.

[eleanorigby]

GIMLI: Only once before have I seen them from afar in waking life, but I know them and their names, for under them lies Khazad-dum, the Dwarrowdelf, that is now called the Black Pit, Moria in the Elvish tongue. Yonder stands Barazinbar, the Redhorn, cruel Caradhras; and beyond him are Silvertine and Cloudyhead: Celebdil the White, and Fanuidhol the Grey, that we call Zirakzigil and Bundushathur.



PIPPIN: <throws rocks at GIMLI> I'm not at school anymore!

GIMLI: Do that again, lad, and I'll hew you wit' me axe.

PIPPIN: You'd have to catch me first, you sad sack of a flabby old dwarf! <darts off>

GIMLI<enraged>: Gandalf! Is this the fellowship you wanted? I say kill him now and let him serve as an example to all Hobbits. Dwarves are not to be treated so. <lifts axe>

LEGOLAS: Have you no sense of humor? Typical of those of dwarvish descent. Too stiff and proud for their own good...

GIMLI: <going postal> NO! <kills the Fellowship, except Aragorn and Gandalf>

[vison]

I like the names. Always did. Gimli gets no respect. Jeez.

[eleanorigby]

I like the names. Always did. Gimli gets no respect. Jeez.

Gimli.... the Rodney Dangerfield of the Fellowship.


I find the differences between the elves and the dwarves as depicted in TH and LOTR to be somewhat jarring. In TH, the dwarves are more appealing and the elves more human; in LOTR, the dwarves just seem to be bad motherfuckers and the elves are all regal and remote and statuesque.

[Skald the Rhymer]

But that's exactly what the situation was. There were three races present (four, if you count Hobbits separately), and Gimli gives the name of each mountain in Dwarvish, Elvish, and Mannish.

Well, Gimli should have stuck them into an index somewhere. It breaks the momentum and the story line.

And as to ancient names... Legolas and Gandalf were effectively ageless, Gimli was from a relatively long-lived race, and Aragorn was from one of the longer-lived families of Men. Anyway, Dwarf-culture is evidently very respectful about names. Of course they're going to know all the names of the mountains around Moria.

Yes, but on an adventure such as the one they had, there really isn't time to debate nomenclature and lecture on it etc. Just MO.

The way I take it is that Gimli never actually said those words--at least not at that time, and in that way.

Bear in mind that (in terms of the Great Game, in which twe pretend Tolkien was but the translator of a very long story), the tale of the Red Book passed through many hands before it got into Ronald's. JRRT didn't have the story written 10/60th by Bilbo (that is, Book I), 45/60th by Frodo (most of the rest of the story) and 5/60th by Sam (everything after the Scouring). Merry had his hand on it and added the Prologue; then Gondorian scribes added more in time.

Gimli's oddly-didactic bit on geography is one of those things that were added in Minas Tirith. So were most of the poems--in particular the best of them, the lament for Boromir.

[eleanorigby]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The gang needed an editor, that's all I'm saying. I'd be happy for all the geeks to include an index and even an atlas--oh, wait.... JRRT did include stuff like that!


No worries, when I reread (which isn't often--why should I, now that I have Aragorn eye candy?), I just glance over those passages. I never keep names like that straight, anyway (no matter then book).

We need an elvish smiley.