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Thread: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

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    Elephant
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    Default Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    This article from the BBC website is a point-counterpoint about the merits of continuing to build cases against Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust.

    I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, I'm Jewish, and even though my close family left Eastern Europe long before the war, some of my distant cousins were killed. It's also part of my ethnic and cultural identity. Consequently, I believe that the people who perpetuated these murders should be held accountable for their crimes.

    On the other hand, I'm not sure that prosecuting 90-year-olds really serves the cause of justice. It's too late to exact any meaningful punishment, and building a prosecutable case is time-consuming and expensive. Defendants can die during the process, rendering all that work moot. Finally, it's hard to prove civil culpability on actions committed during the course of one's official duties, so monetary damages are probably out of the question.

    Perhaps a middle ground might be to re-allocate the money and efforts that would otherwise go toward prosecution to education, prevention, and preservation of the memory of the Holocaust.

    What say y'all?
    There is more than one way to burn a book. And the world is full of people running about with lit matches. -- Ray Bradbury's "Coda"

  2. #2
    Oliphaunt
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    As much as I understand the urge to punish these people, by now it cannot be worth it. They've probably been rotting away in their own heads for sixty years anyway. Let it go, and like you said if there are resources to use, use them on education.

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    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    I don't know...I'm kind of in favor of bringing such criminals before a court, no matter how old they are. Sure, punishment is sort of irrelevant at this point, but to me it's more about psychological punishment...should they be allowed to go to their graves without ever having taken responsibility? Without having to answer for what they've done? It doesn't seem right to me.

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    Stegodon
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    Hell, yes. If nothing else, it keeps the bastards looking over their shoulders for what little time they have left.

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    Indifferent to bacon Julie's avatar
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    I think this is an extremely tough call. Finding these people doesn't really do anything except give the important message that some things are bad enough that you can't just walk away from them.

    I don't know that I believe that these people are suffering in any way from guilt after all this time.

    I think there's a reason why in the US we don't have statutes of limitations on murder.

    And I guess that's all I've had a chance to come up with.

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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    Those who have said that the money spent on hunting down Nazi war criminals and prosecuting them should/would be better spent on educating the masses about the Holocaust and debunking the growing cries of the Holocaust deniers are missing a key point behind continuing the prosecution of said people, which is this; the mere act of doing so is in itself eductaionall and brings attention to the Holocaust, much more so then anything else. When a new Nazi war criminal is uncovered or found there is a media frenzy which lights interest in the Holocaust anew.

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    Oliphaunt
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    Quote Originally posted by Misanthropic Contrarian
    Those who have said that the money spent on hunting down Nazi war criminals and prosecuting them should/would be better spent on educating the masses about the Holocaust and debunking the growing cries of the Holocaust deniers are missing a key point behind continuing the prosecution of said people, which is this; the mere act of doing so is in itself eductaionall and brings attention to the Holocaust, much more so then anything else. When a new Nazi war criminal is uncovered or found there is a media frenzy which lights interest in the Holocaust anew.
    This is a very good point. If there is a good reason to prosecute these people, this is it.

  8. #8
    Stegodon
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    To announce that there will be no more prosecutions for the kind of industrial, institutional genocide would send the wrong message, of course. As long as people think the war crimes tribunals are still on the lookout for Nazis, I think they serve their purpose from a public relations standpoint. Heck, Mel Brooks has done as much as anyone to almost permanently poison the world's opinion of Nazis for generations. The movement and anybody associated with it is shunned, mocked, and ridiculed almost everywhere. They're always the butt of the joke, the villain in the movie. I'll bet that's more useful than the occasional war crime conviction.

    At this point in history I can't see much purpose in employing a body of people in hunting down every last door-guard-at-the-train-station-where-Hitler-went-to-eat-lunch-on-Wednesdays Nazi. Those people would be better employed combing through the recently opened Holocaust records for the survivors and for the families of the victims.

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    Stegodon
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    What about the deterrent effect? If some new Baby Idi Amin comes along and starts slaughtering the star-bellied sneetches, he and his minions may have in their minds the implied expiration date for outrage — "if we do this, then we just have to stay slippery for twenty or thirty years, and we're home free." If there is no expiration date, if it's clear that those who commit atrocities will be hunted until their hearts stop beating, then a larger purpose is served.

    Mind you, I take a dim view of deterrence in general (our own death penalty is argument enough against the principle), so I'm offering this as a bit of devil's advocacy. But if there's an audience of Incipient Hitlers watching the past tyrants being wheeled into courtrooms even in their deathbeds, and rethinking their potential genocides, well, maybe that's enough.


    The Incipient Hitlers = band name

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    Elephant
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    The part that makes me say 'Yes', we should prosecute is that it was organized murder, genocide, or whatever else you'd like to call it. I can give a pass to the 90 year old guy who took a Buick on a joyride when he was 14, but not to one who gassed, incinerated, and shot people for no reason other than their religion/ethnicity.
    Opportunity is missed by most people, because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. Thomas Edison

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    Free Exy Cluricaun's avatar
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    Out of curiosity, how many people even worth persuing are even left at this point?
    Hell, if I didn't do things just because they made me feel a bit ridiculous, I wouldn't have much of a social life. - Santo Rugger.

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    Indifferent to bacon Julie's avatar
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    Quote Originally posted by Cluricaun
    Out of curiosity, how many people even worth persuing are even left at this point?
    It has to be at most a handful.

    I don't see the point, I guess, in calling off the search right now. It seems too late to save any real money and too early to be sure there are no survivors.

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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    Quote Originally posted by Cluricaun
    Out of curiosity, how many people even worth persuing are even left at this point?
    That depends entirely on what parameters you set.

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    Stegodon
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    Quote Originally posted by Cluricaun
    Out of curiosity, how many people even worth persuing are even left at this point?
    Defining "worth pursuing" is pretty much the crux of the debate.

  15. #15
    Free Exy Cluricaun's avatar
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    Well by worth persuing I'm talking about major figures in the planning and orchestration of the holocaust. Not some guy named Ule who helped paint a guard tower at Dachau or something tangental.
    Hell, if I didn't do things just because they made me feel a bit ridiculous, I wouldn't have much of a social life. - Santo Rugger.

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    Maximum Proconsul silenus's avatar
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    Never stop the pursuit. Ever. So long as one of them draws breath, we should harry, harass, and hound them. Honor alone demands no less.
    "The Turtle Moves!"

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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    Speak of the devil, figuratively.

    Second go around for this dude.

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    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    Quote Originally posted by Misanthropic Contrarian
    Speak of the devil, figuratively.

    Second go around for this dude.
    I don't care how thick blood runs, there is no excuse for this man's son to defend or try to protect a man responsible for 29,000 deaths, imo.
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    [quote=ivan astikov]
    Quote Originally posted by "Misanthropic Contrarian":5y3h0npr
    Speak of the devil, figuratively.

    Second go around for this dude.
    I don't care how thick blood runs, there is no excuse for this man's son to defend or try to protect a man responsible for 29,000 deaths, imo.[/quote:5y3h0npr]


    And what specific evidence do you personally have that directly and definitively ties Demjanjuk to the deaths of those 29,000, and why are you wasting time posting about it on a message board instead of sending said evidence to the relevant authorities.

  20. #20
    Indifferent to bacon Julie's avatar
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    [quote=Misanthropic Contrarian][quote="ivan astikov":3jhk5y9v]
    Quote Originally posted by "Misanthropic Contrarian":3jhk5y9v
    Speak of the devil, figuratively.

    Second go around for this dude.
    I don't care how thick blood runs, there is no excuse for this man's son to defend or try to protect a man responsible for 29,000 deaths, imo.[/quote:3jhk5y9v]


    And what specific evidence do you personally have that directly and definitively ties Demjanjuk to the deaths of those 29,000, and why are you wasting time posting about it on a message board instead of sending said evidence to the relevant authorities.[/quote:3jhk5y9v]

    Yes, Ivan! You jump right on that!

  21. #21
    Libertarian Autocrat Vox Imperatoris's avatar
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    It's not a matter of punishing individual Nazis; it's a matter of upholding justice in the abstract and giving punishments equal to the crime.
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    Jesus F'ing Christ Glazer's avatar
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    Quote Originally posted by Cluricaun
    Out of curiosity, how many people even worth persuing are even left at this point?
    Give me a $1,000,000.00 grant. And in about 10 years I can give you an exact amount. :mrgreen:
    Welcome to Mellophant.

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  23. #23
    I've had better days, but I don't care! hatesfreedom's avatar
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    Holocausts are WRONG (unless they happen in Africa)
    I can't believe they used ovens (machetes are ok)
    The jews deserve our protection (U.S.S. Liberity)

    I really don't know. I think its a great message that we hunt down those guilty of extraordinary crimes, except that's not the message anymore. Mostly the message is Israel is still butthurt. Maybe they should be. I don't know.

  24. #24
    The Apostabulous Inner Stickler's avatar
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    Quote Originally posted by hatesfreedom
    I really don't know. I think its a great message that we hunt down those guilty of extraordinary crimes, except that's not the message anymore. Mostly the message is Israel is still butthurt. Maybe they should be. I don't know.
    Mass extermination of one group of people is not something you can or should pop a xanax to get over. What happened was horrific and it is inappropriate to imply that after so many years the hurt goes away.
    I don't think so, therefore I'm probably not.

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    Elephant
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    Quote Originally posted by hatesfreedom
    Holocausts are WRONG (unless they happen in Africa)
    I can't believe they used ovens (machetes are ok)
    The jews deserve our protection (U.S.S. Liberity)

    I really don't know. I think its a great message that we hunt down those guilty of extraordinary crimes, except that's not the message anymore. Mostly the message is Israel is still butthurt. Maybe they should be. I don't know.
    No. "Butthurt" is what you feel whenever a cop gives you a speeding ticket, or when a hot chick turns you down.

    Losing a significant number of people because some megalomaniac decides their ancestors didn't come from the right place goes way beyond butthurt. There are still Holocaust survivors out there who remember the sheer hell of their experience; who had their entire family wiped out, sometimes right in front of them. I'd have to say that's a legitimate beef.
    There is more than one way to burn a book. And the world is full of people running about with lit matches. -- Ray Bradbury's "Coda"

  26. #26
    I've had better days, but I don't care! hatesfreedom's avatar
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    Quote Originally posted by Inner Stickler
    Mass extermination of one group of people is not something you can or should pop a xanax to get over. What happened was horrific and it is inappropriate to imply that after so many years the hurt goes away.
    It saddens me that you deserve a serious reply. All I can say is that I spent too many years studying military history and the end result was that I was a very jaded hatesfreedom. I can only say I was always disturbed by how much we latched onto this one event while ignoring the perfectly capable body counts we racked up since then. At the same time at least it educated people on how easy it is to kill the unpopular.

    I was pretty elated to see Admiral Snuffy going into Bosnia to fix up that mess, a job Admiral Snuffy did awesomely. I was disheartened by the way we ignored Africa while selling them weapons and signing contracts. By 'we' of course I mean the collective major powers of the world. Not just the United States.

    Either way, as to the OP I'm a whole hearted supporter in exterminating anyone who is convicted in a world court. There's no hand holding at that level.

  27. #27
    Stegodon
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    The perpetrators are scum,I dont care if they're a hundred and five they should have their sicko crimes exposed to the world because over the years nodoubt they've rationalised their actions,allowed their memories to become selective as to what exactly the depth of their participation was and many of their friends,colleagues,neighbours and family are unaware of what they did.

    If their daughters/sons and granddaughters/grandsons on finding out about their past look on them with revulsion and disgust then good,if they decide to cut off all ties then even better.

    Take away their money,take away whats left of their lives,make them face up to the evil that they did.

    Evil is evil and no amount of time passed will lessen the evil of the acts that they have committed.

    I'll make my declarations,I'm not Jewish and as far as I know don't even actually know any Jews.
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    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    Quote Originally posted by Misanthropic Contrarian

    And what specific evidence do you personally have that directly and definitively ties Demjanjuk to the deaths of those 29,000, and why are you wasting time posting about it on a message board instead of sending said evidence to the relevant authorities.
    Call it a hunch; I'm busy solving world poverty and developing a perpetual motion machine.
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

  29. #29
    Stegodon
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    How will we know when they've all died off? This is a serious question. Is it going to be decided by statistical data (99% of people born in that year have died by now, so...) or are there specific names that the hunters are looking for?
    Why won't those stupid idiots let me join their crappy club for jerks?

  30. #30
    Elephant
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    I think they're looking for specific individuals, and that they have names. The Germans kept very good records, so the Nazi-hunters have a pretty good idea of who they're looking for.
    There is more than one way to burn a book. And the world is full of people running about with lit matches. -- Ray Bradbury's "Coda"

  31. #31
    Elephant Tuckerfan's avatar
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    Quote Originally posted by SpazCat
    How will we know when they've all died off? This is a serious question. Is it going to be decided by statistical data (99% of people born in that year have died by now, so...) or are there specific names that the hunters are looking for?
    Probably they'll continue looking even once they know that the person has to be dead, simply so that they can say, "Dr. Killzemall fled Germany at the end of the war, spending the rest of his life hiding in a meat locker in Argentina."
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  32. #32
    Stegodon
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    Quote Originally posted by MsRobyn
    I think they're looking for specific individuals, and that they have names. The Germans kept very good records, so the Nazi-hunters have a pretty good idea of who they're looking for.
    I figured that had to be the case, but I wasn't sure.
    Why won't those stupid idiots let me join their crappy club for jerks?

  33. #33
    Sophmoric Existentialist
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    Default Re: Should we still be prosecuting Nazis for war crimes related to the Holocaust?

    Quote Originally posted by silenus
    Never stop the pursuit. Ever. So long as one of them draws breath, we should harry, harass, and hound them. Honor alone demands no less.
    Well, I'm not so big on the "honour" thing, since this concept of "honour" is a justification for an awful number of horrible acts in this sorry old world. But I do agree that they should be hunted down like the vermin they are and dragged into the light of day. An old brute is still a brute, and even if senile and drooling in a wheelchair, he should be called to account. Millions of people never got the chance to get to be senile and drooling in a wheelchair thanks to him and his vile ilk.

    I don't see it as a deterrent, though. I don't think your usual megalomaniac butcher, your ordinary Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, Mao Zedong, stops to think about the possibility of being hauled into court or gives a rat's ass about it. Why would they? They are God. Such people and their regimes are possible because they're part of the human condition - they cannot be stopped by the fear of prosecution. I'm not sure what can stop them - more courage on "our" part to stop them before they get that far?

    This is quite apt at the moment, actually, when we stop to consider whether Mr. Bush and his minions ought to be called to account for their "crimes against humanity".
    Sophmoric Existentialist

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