.40 for the everyday man

[Cluricaun]

So after years of effort I think I've finally infected my girlfriend with the "gun bug". We went last week and had her apply for her FOID card (an Illinois firearms owners card, required by law) and while we were at the gun shop we of course did a little browsing. While she may be new to guns, she's not new to shopping and she immediately picked out a pistol that she decided that she wanted. It was a Springfield XD in .40 Smith. I've wanted an XD for a long, long time so I was overjoyed that she picked one, but then I got to thinking.

Is there any advantage for a civilian to own a .40? It's got a much meaner kick than a 9mm, and less magazine capacity, while not having the power of a .45. I know the storied history of the round, and know that it's the Feds choice since the 10mm seemed too much for small hands, so maybe it's a good choice for an FBI agent, but is there any real point in a citizen to have one?

[Scumpup]

.40 S&W has a good reputation as a threat-ender. Its biggest advantage is that you can get nearly .45 acp performance in guns that use a 9mm-sized frame. Yes, it's possible to make tiny .45's; but they usually have small magazine capacity and they are notoriously finicky about which ammo they will cycle reliably.
So, with a .40 you can have a gun with a comfortingly large magazine capacity, a cartridge that has been shown to perform well in real world encounters, and a frame that smaller hands can grasp comfortably. Sounds like good reasons to own one to me. I, in fact, own two.

[Cluricaun]

Interesting. I still don't know that a .40 automatic is a great choice for a first time handgun shooter, I think it's still a bit stiff in the recoil department and would lead to flinching and other poor habits plus having to learn to clear stovepipes and the like. I'm trying to push her toward one of those new Taurus wheelguns that eats up 9mm and .380 without having to have a moon clip, but her girlfriend got a Glock 27 in .40 and she's determined to have one. Well maybe I'll buy the revolver and when she gets sick of the XD I'll claim it.

[Scumpup]

How stiffly a cartridge recoils varies with the loading. Generally speaking, the hotter the load, the greater the recoil. If she's trained properly, she won't have any bad habits no matter what gun she is using.
Dude, keep in mind that the gun is for her, not for you. If you pressure her into getting the gun you want her to have, there's a decent chance that she'll not like it and won't practice with it. .40 S&W is not an unreasonable choice for a female shooter. We aren't talking about a .500 Magnum, here. Recoil of the .40 is about on a par with that of the better performing 9mm+p loads. There're loads of female cops and gummint agents out there using .40's who never touched a gun until they went to the academy. It's much more about training her correctly than it is about which caliber gun she chooses.

[Cluricaun]

You're right. I'm stuck on everyone who I teach learning like I did. First a BB gun, then an air rifle, then a .22 rifle, then a .22 handgun, and then whatever you'd like from there after showing a level of proficency with each. That way when you get excited and waive a muzzle in the wrong direction the worst that happens is a welt.

I tend to think of calibers as graduations in ability and if you start too high on the spectrum that you'll never get good.

[silenus]

I love my .40S&W Firestar. Heavier than shit, but compact and points well.

[Jules]

Timely; I pick up my Taurus .40 on Thursday. I liked it because the frame size fits my hands, and it's still small enough to be more concealable than onther guns I might have chosen. I find a 9mm to be underpowered, and I know form experience that a .45 kicks enough that I won't practice reliably with it.

[puppygod]

In my opinion there is no significant difference between full-power pistol calibers (9mm and above). With good quality 3rd gen JHP ammo they have almost identical performance (in terms of expansion and penetration) for self-defense applications, and for sport shooting it's a matter of enough training and personal quirks more than anything. I'm yet to meet healthy adult who can't be taught to shoot accurately from handgun of any caliber between 9mm and .45. As one of my shooting gurus said: choose whatever you can shoot accurately from.

I prefer 9mm for one, but it's mostly because Walther P99 fits my hands and ammo is cheap rather than any belief in supremacy of one caliber over other.

Nothing beats 12 gauge anyway.

[danceswithcats]

Quite honestly, I looked at the .40 S&W, and chose the 10mm over it because of the straight vs. stagger clip-the 10mm being a slimmer weapon for concealed carry. Yes, I pay more for a brick, but that's my issue.

[Scumpup]

Nothing beats 12 gauge anyway.

Oh yeah? Clearly, you've never experienced an 11 gauge.

[Cluricaun]

Nothing beats 12 gauge anyway.

Oh yeah? Clearly, you've never experienced an 11 gauge.

This one goes up to 11.

I think that we're going to have ourselves a .40 in the house.

[puppygod]

Nothing beats 12 gauge anyway.

Oh yeah? Clearly, you've never experienced an 11 gauge.

Heh. But I've seen friggin 4 gauge. I guess people in XIX century either used lighter loads or had titanium bones.

[Scumpup]

I've seen some gigantic-ass shotguns from the era of market hunters. 10 gauge, 8 guage, and larger. As I understand it, those monsters weren't fired from the shoulder the way you would a smaller gauge shotgun. This article on punt guns gives a brief description of their use: http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/muse...ves/003537.asp

[Dragon]

Actually, in 1959, I hunted with a kid that had an single shot 10 gauge. Only slightly larger than my 12 gauge double side by side.

He had about 10 all brass shells which he reloaded himself, ( Poor country folks at 40th & Plum. ) He might have just been a bit heavy on the powder. < VEG > When I shot is occasionally it felt like when I fired both barrels on mine at the same time. Bawahahaha ( Yeah, were were teenagers.... what's yer point? )

[danceswithcats]

I chanced upon this website a number of years ago. I'd love to watch this puppy get fired!

[Scumpup]

I think that we're going to have ourselves a .40 in the house.

How proud you must be! Are you going to hand out cigars to all your friends?

[silenus]

I think that we're going to have ourselves a .40 in the house.

How proud you must be! Are you going to hand out cigars to all your friends?

Not cigars - reloading dies.

[Scumpup]

Whatever he hands out, he should name the new addition after me, since I was the first one to urge him to go ahead with the blessed event.

[Oakminster]

I got to fire a .40 S&W a couple of months ago. Nice gun, recoil maybe slightly heavier than my 9mm, but easily managable. If I were in the market for another pistol, it would definitely be on my short list.

[silenus]

Consider the Firestar if you do. Mine is a joy to shoot, and pretty accurate right out of the box.

[Rigamarole]

Think about this for a minute. You're helping your girlfriend buy a gun. I hope you have a really, really stable relationship.

[Cluricaun]

Think about this for a minute. You're helping your girlfriend buy a gun. I hope you have a really, really stable relationship.

We do indeed, and it's only fair that in the event that things don't work out that she should be in a position to return fire. 8-)

[Glazer]

Heh. But I've seen friggin 4 gauge. I guess people in XIX century either used lighter loads or had titanium bones.

My Grandfather had a 4 gauge. It mounted to a base plate or the bottom of a boat. When fired it would push the boat down about 4 in. into the water. Then the boat would rebound almost completely out of the water. What a ride!

That gun could take out a hole formation of ducks.

He had to buy shells mail order and load them himself.

I wonder what ever happend to thay gun?

[Jules]

I thought I'd update, after I've had a chance to shoot my Taurus Millenium .40 a few times.

I find that I don't really care for it. The recoil is weirdly sharp. The trigger has almost an inch of slack in it. I can barely hit the paper with it, which isn't normal for me. I'm also shooting a couple of .45 ACPs, and I can routinely bullseye those at the same distances. I think it's a case of the gun just not suiting me very well, and I've decided to cut my losses and sell it rather than having any work done to it. I'm not even going to work on qualifying for my CCW with it; I'll stick to my good old .357 and my husband's new .45.

I'm saving up for a shorter .45 than his, something more concealable. It's a better caliber for me. I've got my eye on an Ed Brown, but after vetoing one for him (expensive!) odds are that I'll try to find me a Kimber too. We're very happy with the Kimber.

[ctywkr]

I'm in California, when I started looking at semi-autos just before they passed the ban on large magazines, I wanted a 9mm. With the ban in place I wanted to maximize amount of ammo. The .40 allows me to get 11 in the frame, the .45 only 8, so I went with the .40.

I wound up buying a S&W 4006 in stainless.

[silenus]

I stocked up on magazines for all of my semis just before the ban, although it really only effected the High Power. But face it...unless you're a cop, if you can't kill it with 8, you ain't gonna kill it with 14.

[Scumpup]

I wish somebody would make a modern pistol in 7.62 Tokarev. I have a Romanian TT-33, which is a great range toy, but I want something with better safety mechanisms that would permit cocked and locked carry or a DA first shot.

[silenus]

Why? Serious question. What advantages do you think the 7.62X25 cartridge has over 9mm/.40S&W/.45ACP?

[Scumpup]

Very, very highly penetrative. Very flat shooting.
It is, in many ways, the poor man's 5.7 mm.

[silenus]

The Mozambique Drill takes care of any miscreant wearing body armor.

Where I live, penetrating is a Bad Thing. I don't really like my neighbors, but I wouldn't want to splatter them because I was assaulted by some low-BMI burglar.

[Scumpup]

Mozambique drill is all well and good. Center of mass is stll the easiest target.
7.62 Tok is a light recoiling cartridge. It is the only pistol cartridge for which I would actually like to own a short carbine. It'd make a great PDW.

[danceswithcats]

*snif* I guess I'll sit here all alone with no other 10mm friends.

[silenus]

Can you even buy 10mm ammo anymore? (Silly question - of course you can. If it has ever been made, someone is making it now, for a price.) How much does a box of that stuff run you these days?

[danceswithcats]

It's been a while-but ISTR it was about $5 more per brick than .380 for regular copper jacketed rounds.

[ivan astikov]

How often is target practice carried out on a simulated moving human target? Are there self-defense classes that recreate 'home invasions' etc, for the public?

[Scumpup]

How often is target practice carried out on a simulated moving human target? Are there self-defense classes that recreate 'home invasions' etc, for the public?

Depends on how elaborate the shooting range you use is. Some gun clubs have very basic set ups, others are more elaborate. There are also private shooting schools, like Gunsite for example, that are so well equipped and staffed that LE and military personnel are sent there for training.

[Cluricaun]

How often is target practice carried out on a simulated moving human target? Are there self-defense classes that recreate 'home invasions' etc, for the public?

Reaction, control, fire discipline and lowlight conditions are all that would be needed for such a scenario, most of which can be learned in a farm field just as well as a pricey shooting school. Moving targets are for shooting galleries and movies and Hogan’s Alley.

[Scumpup]

How often is target practice carried out on a simulated moving human target? Are there self-defense classes that recreate 'home invasions' etc, for the public?

Reaction, control, fire discipline and lowlight conditions are all that would be needed for such a scenario, most of which can be learned in a farm field just as well as a pricey shooting school. Moving targets are for shooting galleries and movies and Hogan’s Alley.

It isn't necessarily the target that needs to be moving. How much practice do you put into practicing your shooting on the move? How much practice do you put into engaging multiple targets? Shoot/no shoot? These are, indeed, things that can be practiced in a farm field if you put the time and effort into setting things up to do it. Most farm field shooting, IME is just plinking. Plinking is fun and I've burned tens of thousands of rounds doing it, but it isn't real training for defensive shooting.

[Cluricaun]

Ranges in Northern Illinois are uptight about a lot of things, including prone drills and rapid fire offhand drills. Forget any moving drill at all. It’s why there are approximately zero IPSC events in Illinois. If you want to try and get comfortable doing some real world fire exercises around here, private land is your only bet. Hell, my favorite range prohibits the use of human shaped targets. You have to approximate with a larger bulls for a chest type area and a smaller one for a head type area using NRA targets.

[Scumpup]

Everything I've heard about Illinois sounds like they do everything in their power to suck all the enjoyment right out of shooting without making it outright impossible to go shooting.
If you are ever in PA, come see me and we'll go out and have us a swell old time doing stuff that will make the Baby Illinois cry.

[Cluricaun]

We used to have a lot more ranges that were shut down thanks to overwhelming stupidity (“Hey, lets shoot stuff off the top of the backstop!”) or the area going McMansion around a formerly rural area and having prissy men and soccer moms regulate it out of existence. There are private gun clubs around, one in my city of residence to be exact, but I don’t know three members to nominate me in or feel like kicking in $1000 to join just so some old timers can make me mow the fricking lawn every Sunday morning since I’d be the only member under the age of having served in the Spanish American war. I support the one public range an hour away from my house exclusively and it’s run by the nicest bunch of rangemasters in existence.

I know there are some incredible things available downstate , but they have land and space and a better attitude towards firearms than anything in the upper third of the state. For that kind of driving I'll just head to Indiana or Wisconsin.

If I’m ever out your way, I’m totally taking you up on it.

[silenus]

I echo the invitation if either of you is ever out West. We may be a gun-grabbing state, but what happens on BLM land in the desert stays on BLM land in the desert. Except the brass, of course. We do try to leave the place neat.

[Scumpup]

A lot of gun clubs are like that. I'd rather pay higher dues so the club can pay landscapers to cut the grass than listen to elderly retired guys bitch about younger men not helping on their days off.

[danceswithcats]

Unfortunately for me, the closest free State range is an hour away. When I lived in Levittown, there was a nice indoor range, well lit, exhaust fans, clean, and you paid by the hour. I haven't found anything like that where I live, now.

While I could legally set up a paper target in my back yard and bang away (upslope-so all rounds would hit soil), that would be profoundly rude to my neighbors.

[ctywkr]

Silenus, I didn't know that the two in center of mass and one in the head was called that, thanks!, also I'm already in the desert, where do you shoot?

[silenus]

See, if you had been a regular reader of Jeff Cooper's column in Guns & Ammo, you would have known that.

When we go desert shooting, we usually make a weekend of it and take a large hunk of the armory. Our favorite spot is out near Danby, off Route 66 between Amboy and Essex. There's an old dirt airstrip that's right up against some small hills that serve as backstop.

[Rube E. Tewesday]

Ahh, Jeff Cooper. Anything smaller than a .45 was for sissies.

[Martini Enfield]

The .45 is an excellent handgun cartridge, IMHO- the recoil isn't as "sharp" as the 9mm, and it's great for metallic silhouette... I borrowed a friend's .45 the other weekend and was knocking over the Rams at the 100m mark with it.

I've always thought the .40 was a solution looking for a problem, to be honest. But then, I'm of the opinion there are too many calibres in existence these days anyway...

Scumpup, Norinco make a modern version of the TT-33 in 7.62x25mm Tokarev, which I believe has a safety catch, and I'm also fairly sure that Baikal or Izvehsk or someone in Russia makes a similar gun in the same calibre.

[Chimera]

I'm of the opinion there are too many calibres in existence these days anyway...

Wait 5 minutes and there will be another one.

My next pistol will be a .45.

I already own a .40, but I regret buying it. Fits the hand nicely, but I hate hate hate the long DA trigger pull and the damned thing feeds like a baby shot up with novocaine. I'd never trust my life to that thing.

[Jules]

My next pistol will be a .45.

I already own a .40, but I regret buying it. Fits the hand nicely, but I hate hate hate the long DA trigger pull and the damned thing feeds like a baby shot up with novocaine. I'd never trust my life to that thing.

I feel the same way, now that I bought one and shot it. I'm saving up for a Kimber .45 instead.