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Thread: Wherein I, a leftie Swede, explain why I will vote right in the next election

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    Elephant Claptree's avatar
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    Default Wherein I, a leftie Swede, explain why I will vote right in the next election

    I grew up in a socialist home. I have read some Lenin and Marx. I do believe that the best end result for humanity can only be achieved by way of socialist government. I further believe that in a country as small as Sweden, national politics are largely irrelevant. Some history: Sweden has been ruled, with a couple of exceptions, by the Social Democratic party for the last century. Rarely, if ever, has the more capitalist wing had a chance to really implement their ideas. They do now, though.

    What I want to debate is this: I believe there is only so much a national government can do to affect the general curve of financial and social development, since we are affected so much by what happens in the rest of the world. This leads me to believe that it is more harmful for the development of a nation - let's say Sweden - to interrupt, cancel and redo political strategies before they come to fruition - socialist, capitalist or otherwise - than it is to let a suboptimal strategy run its course.

    Sweden is currently governed by an alliance of right-wing (US political spectrum translation: left-wing ) parties, who in my opinion have done some good things and some bad. Their overarching objective is obviously to make the nation more successful, same as their opposition. It looks as though they will lose the next election, which would mean that all their programmes and strategies will be cancelled and replaced. I believe this would be more harmful to the nation than letting the right-wing strategies run their course would ever be.

    Reading what I've written, I'm not sure there is much room for debate, but I still want to throw it out there: four years is not enough time to fairly judge the success of a given political, social and financial system.

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    Member xenophon41's avatar
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    Default Re: Wherein I, a leftie Swede, explain why I will vote right in the next election

    Knowing next to nothing about Sweden's governmental structure or politics, I'm going to do some inter-tube learnin' before I really engage (or convince you to give an 'Intro to Swedish Polisci' primer), but one thing struck me as reasonable in presentation but quite potentially dangerous if taken as an unwavering rule: The idea that cancellation and reversal of a system of political policies before they've been proved is always more harmful than letting them run their course.

    You may indeed be right about this to a certain degree when it comes to financial systems, but I would argue that there are historic examples -some quite recent in US history- of social and political strategies that were such clear and obvious losers from the start, or were such heavy reversals themselves to the popular direction of the affected nation that cancellation and correction would've been far better than letting the failure of those policies become self evident.

    I doubt this is the case with the Swedish "right-wing" as it was with the US neocons, but I would caution against "staying the course" if there's any strong indication the course leads through a swamp.
    If this is coffee, please bring me some tea. But if this is tea please bring me some coffee. ~Abraham Lincoln

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    Elephant Claptree's avatar
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    Default Re: Wherein I, a leftie Swede, explain why I will vote right in the next election

    Sorry, I don't know anywhere near enough to throw together a primer. Wikipedia gives a decent oversight, but it doesn't delve very deep.

    I fully agree with your caveat. The political spectrum in Sweden is quite narrow. (Though about to be widened considerably, but that's a subject for another thread, shudder.) When it comes to social issues, the spectrum seems even more narrow to me.

    -------------

    I'll leave that for now. It's Saturday night, almost 3AM, and I'm quite incapable of coherent thought. I'll get back to this when I can create coherent paragraphs.

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    Libertarian Autocrat Vox Imperatoris's avatar
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    Default Re: Wherein I, a leftie Swede, explain why I will vote right in the next election

    Quote Originally posted by Claptree
    Sweden is currently governed by an alliance of right-wing (US political spectrum translation: left-wing ) parties, who in my opinion have done some good things and some bad. Their overarching objective is obviously to make the nation more successful, same as their opposition. It looks as though they will lose the next election, which would mean that all their programmes and strategies will be cancelled and replaced. I believe this would be more harmful to the nation than letting the right-wing strategies run their course would ever be.
    I don't think that what I bolded is accurate (unless you were just making a joke about Sweden as a whole being more liberal than the U.S.). What you're calling "right-wing" parties would definitely be considered more right-wing in the U.S. than your left-wing parties, without getting into the socially liberal vs. economically liberal distinction. It is true, though, that your "liberals" are our conservatives.

    But while I certainly don't have a problem with you voting for the center-right parties, I can't say I agree with your assertion that socialism will provide the best end result for humanity. Ignoring the fact that a state-controlled economy that expropriates money from the producers and distributes it to the consumers is, in my opinion, inherently unjust, socialism is a simply unworkable philosophy, to the extent that it is carried out consistently (that is, the more consistently it is carried out, the less it works). I've been reading Henry Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson, and I think it provides the best, most coherent explanation of why economic conservatives believe the things they do, and why things like rent controls, minimum wage laws, trade protections, and opposition to the price system in general are based on fallacious economic understandings. Although perhaps you should define what you consider to be socialism?

    However, I do think it is important that privatization, when considered, be carried out consistently. I certainly don't consider things like "corporate welfare" and nationalizing losses while privatizing gains (a large part of the financial industry's problem that sparked the current economic crisis in the U.S.) to be capitalistic.
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    Default Re: Wherein I, a leftie Swede, explain why I will vote right in

    ]when there is little that matters, we can disregard the small issues..

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    Elephant Claptree's avatar
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    Default Re: Wherein I, a leftie Swede, explain why I will vote right in the next election

    Quote Originally posted by Vox Imperatoris
    I don't think that what I bolded is accurate (unless you were just making a joke about Sweden as a whole being more liberal than the U.S.). What you're calling "right-wing" parties would definitely be considered more right-wing in the U.S. than your left-wing parties, without getting into the socially liberal vs. economically liberal distinction. It is true, though, that your "liberals" are our conservatives.
    What I meant was that the range of political parties in Sweden, on a simplified left to right scale, even the most right-wing would on many issues fall to the left of the Democrats. The left-wing parties would be more accurately described as fringe elements.

    Quote Originally posted by Vox Imperatoris
    But while I certainly don't have a problem with you voting for the center-right parties, I can't say I agree with your assertion that socialism will provide the best end result for humanity. Ignoring the fact that a state-controlled economy that expropriates money from the producers and distributes it to the consumers is, in my opinion, inherently unjust, socialism is a simply unworkable philosophy, to the extent that it is carried out consistently (that is, the more consistently it is carried out, the less it works). I've been reading Henry Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson, and I think it provides the best, most coherent explanation of why economic conservatives believe the things they do, and why things like rent controls, minimum wage laws, trade protections, and opposition to the price system in general are based on fallacious economic understandings. Although perhaps you should define what you consider to be socialism?

    However, I do think it is important that privatization, when considered, be carried out consistently. I certainly don't consider things like "corporate welfare" and nationalizing losses while privatizing gains (a large part of the financial industry's problem that sparked the current economic crisis in the U.S.) to be capitalistic.
    Not really what I wanted to discuss. I'd prefer to avoid this becoming a debate over pros and cons of the different ideologies, even though I realize that's probably where it will end up.

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    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
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    Default Re: Wherein I, a leftie Swede, explain why I will vote right in the next election

    I agree that 4 yrs isn't long enough for any party to do its job effectively, especially when the opposition is trying to trip you up every step of the way. I understand the neccessity to 'keep each other on their toes', but this system seems set up more to benefit politicians, than the people they are supposed to serve.
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

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    Oliphaunt
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    Default Re: Wherein I, a leftie Swede, explain why I will vote right in the next election

    Quote Originally posted by Claptree
    The political spectrum in Sweden is quite narrow. (Though about to be widened considerably, but that's a subject for another thread, shudder.)
    What do you mean by this?

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    Elephant Claptree's avatar
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    Default Re: Wherein I, a leftie Swede, explain why I will vote right in the next election

    I'm worried about Sverigedemokraterna (social conservatives, with a strong anti-immigration stance - what I refer to as a party of discontent) taking a position in Riksdagen. I worry because I don't believe our politicians have the brains and/or guts to handle them the right way. I expect the general approach will be to try to ignore them or shut them up, whereas I would prefer an approach of open discourse, where SD is allowed to express their views, and to be publicly criticized for them.

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    Member xenophon41's avatar
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    Default Re: Wherein I, a leftie Swede, explain why I will vote right in the next election

    Sweden has a decent government web site which explains your system of government. Looking at this and Wiki, I see that the "right" (the non-socialist liberals and conservatives) form the major coalition in parliament, since 2006. Of this coalition, the largest bloc is something called the Moderate Party, which to this American sort of resembles a mix of Blue Dog Democrats and Libertarians. Out of all the parties, they seem to have made the most gains in 2006. The majority of that gain seems to be shown as losses from the other "right" parties rather than from voters switching from left to right, but mathematically I think there would have to have been some of that.

    To me, I would think the Centre Party would be more attractive to socialists and former socialists, but I don't pretend to understand more than the basics. In any case, I think the platform of the Moderates, with its emphasis on privatisation and free (read: unregulated) markets, should be sufficiently disturbing to a socialist that you would not want to cast your vote that way, even if you're interested in seeing the results of more conservative fiscal policies.
    If this is coffee, please bring me some tea. But if this is tea please bring me some coffee. ~Abraham Lincoln

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    Oliphaunt
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    Default Re: Wherein I, a leftie Swede, explain why I will vote right in the next election

    Quote Originally posted by Claptree
    I'm worried about Sverigedemokraterna (social conservatives, with a strong anti-immigration stance - what I refer to as a party of discontent) taking a position in Riksdagen.
    I feel pretty hopeful that they won't or, at most, last one term as a tiny minority party. But if they do get in, you're absolutely right in that the mainstream politicians' approach will be to ignore them and shut them out.

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    Elephant Claptree's avatar
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    Default Re: Wherein I, a leftie Swede, explain why I will vote right in the next election

    Quote Originally posted by xenophon41
    Sweden has a decent government web site which explains your system of government. Looking at this and Wiki, I see that the "right" (the non-socialist liberals and conservatives) form the major coalition in parliament, since 2006. Of this coalition, the largest bloc is something called the Moderate Party, which to this American sort of resembles a mix of Blue Dog Democrats and Libertarians. Out of all the parties, they seem to have made the most gains in 2006. The majority of that gain seems to be shown as losses from the other "right" parties rather than from voters switching from left to right, but mathematically I think there would have to have been some of that.
    Didn't know about that site, thanks. As for the 2006 election, as I remember it there were also quite a few people that didn't vote at all, primarily Social Democrats.

    Quote Originally posted by xenophon41
    To me, I would think the Centre Party would be more attractive to socialists and former socialists, but I don't pretend to understand more than the basics. In any case, I think the platform of the Moderates, with its emphasis on privatisation and free (read: unregulated) markets, should be sufficiently disturbing to a socialist that you would not want to cast your vote that way, even if you're interested in seeing the results of more conservative fiscal policies.
    They all have their good and bad points. You're reaching the crux of my point, though. I feel the real difference between the blocks, as opposed to their respective platforms, is small enough that leaving the Alliance (the right-wing coalition) in power is less damaging to the nation as a whole than it would be to have the left come back and redo everything. I see eight years in a suboptimal direction as better than four lost years.

    Edited to correct math

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    Member xenophon41's avatar
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    Default Re: Wherein I, a leftie Swede, explain why I will vote right in the next election

    Quote Originally posted by Claptree
    They all have their good and bad points. You're reaching the crux of my point, though. I feel the real difference between the blocks, as opposed to their respective platforms, is small enough that leaving the Alliance (the right-wing coalition) in power is less damaging to the nation as a whole than it would be to have the left come back and redo everything. I see eight years in a suboptimal direction as better than four lost years.
    I think you have the soul of a conservative.
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    Elephant Claptree's avatar
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    Default Re: Wherein I, a leftie Swede, explain why I will vote right in the next election

    :shock:

    Here I was thinking what a nice and civil conversation we were having, and now you had to go and ruin it.

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    Member xenophon41's avatar
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    Default Didn't mean to be a buzzkill!

    As long as you have the heart of a socialist and an independent mind, prognosis is good.
    If this is coffee, please bring me some tea. But if this is tea please bring me some coffee. ~Abraham Lincoln

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    Member dark smoky eyes's avatar
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    Default Re: Wherein I, a leftie Swede, explain why I will vote right in the next election

    Quote Originally posted by Claptree
    Didn't know about that site, thanks. As for the 2006 election, as I remember it there were also quite a few people that didn't vote at all, primarily Social Democrats.
    Did you claim that the majority of the non voters in the 2006 election were Social Democrats?

    If so, how were they counted?

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    Member dark smoky eyes's avatar
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    Default Re: Wherein I, a leftie Swede, explain why I will vote right in the next election

    Quote Originally posted by Claptree
    I grew up in a socialist home. I have read some Lenin and Marx. I do believe that the best end result for humanity can only be achieved by way of socialist government.
    This is quite interesting.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I've gained the impression that you're completely unschooled in economic theory other than the Marxist based stuff.

    Is genuine economic theory taught as a subject in Swedish high schools at all?

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    Elephant Claptree's avatar
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    Default Re: Wherein I, a leftie Swede, explain why I will vote right in the next election

    Quote Originally posted by dark smoky eyes
    Did you claim that the majority of the non voters in the 2006 election were Social Democrats?

    If so, how were they counted?
    No, not exactly. The way I remembered it, voter turnout was lower than in -02 (wrong, it was the other way around) and that Alliance (right) gains were so much larger, percentage-wise, than Red-Green losses that it couldn't be explained by new voters or voters changing allegiance. I can't find any polls or articles now that support my recollection, but I do remember some disappointment with the party leaders among social democrats leading me to believe some chose to stay home.

    Quote Originally posted by dark smoky eyes
    This is quite interesting.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I've gained the impression that you're completely unschooled in economic theory other than the Marxist based stuff.

    Is genuine economic theory taught as a subject in Swedish high schools at all?
    This is a bit of a hijack, but since the discussion as outlined in the OP seems to have petered out, I'll allow it. (Where's the smiley?)

    You are wrong. In school, basic economic theories are covered until grade 9. In high school, you get to choose majors, and I chose science, meaning I studied very little in the way of social sciences, but I did take an elective course in history. I've studied economy as part of a university history course, covering the basic development of different economic theories, and how they affected the world. My reading of Lenin and Marx (very little, btw. Not one of those books has managed to keep me interested enough to finish it.) was all my doing. I barely touched upon their economic ideas. It was frankly too boring.

    The idea I have for the "end result for humanity" is, I am very well aware of, a Utopian dream - influenced as much by Roddenberry as by Marx. Realistically, a mix of ideologies is needed. I just prefer the more reasonable socialist ones (read Europe, not Soviet Union or China) to the more capitalist ones. IMO, a strong social grid is a necessity for a nation.

    Now that the thread is off the tracks, Vox Imperatoris' question is next. It'll take a while, though.

  19. #19
    Member dark smoky eyes's avatar
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    Default Re: Wherein I, a leftie Swede, explain why I will vote right in the next election

    Quote Originally posted by Claptree
    I'm worried about Sverigedemokraterna (social conservatives, with a strong anti-immigration stance - what I refer to as a party of discontent) taking a position in Riksdagen. I worry because I don't believe our politicians have the brains and/or guts to handle them the right way. I expect the general approach will be to try to ignore them or shut them up, whereas I would prefer an approach of open discourse, where SD is allowed to express their views, and to be publicly criticized for them.
    When you suggest that the Sverigedemocraterna might be "shut up" by the Social Democrats if it gains control as Sweden's ruling party junta following the next election, do you refer to the possibility that the SD might use its unofficial activist wing: Antifascistisk Aktion for that purpose.

    Wouldn't you prefer that the SD use Sweden's world famous Dialog Polis instead?

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    Oliphaunt
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    Default Re: Wherein I, a leftie Swede, explain why I will vote right in the next election

    Quote Originally posted by dark smoky eyes
    When you suggest that the Sverigedemocraterna might be "shut up" by the Social Democrats if it gains control as Sweden's ruling party junta following the next election, do you refer to the possibility that the SD might use its unofficial activist wing: Antifascistisk Aktion for that purpose.
    When you use an initialism, please make sure that it actually distinguishes the entity for which it stands from other entities. I read the above as Antifascistisk Aktion being the activist wing of Sverigedemokraterna, which is even more wrong than it being the activist wing of Socialdemokraterna.

    First of all, what I - and, I believe, Claptree - meant wasn't that violent teenagers would be sent into parliament to beat the crap out of Sverigedemokraterna, which is pretty much the only use of Antifascistisk Aktion. We meant that Sverigedemokraterna would be ignored, shut out of discussion when possible, and maybe ridiculed. It's already happened in the local governments where Sverigedemokraterna won a presence.

    Second of all, I take it you have little experience with Antifascistisk Aktion, similar organizations, or the people in them. They hate Socialdemokraterna. Not as much as they hate Sverigedemokraterna or Neo-Nazis, but they do hate them. Antifascistisk Aktion is way way out on the left, and it's composed of people who don't have the patience for waiting for elections. Personally I think this is because they subconsciously know that in four years they won't be as rabid anymore, so they need to get it all out now. Been there myself.

  21. #21
    Elephant Claptree's avatar
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    Default Re: Wherein I, a leftie Swede, explain why I will vote right in the next election

    To avoid further misunderstanding: SD = Sverigedemokraterna, S = Social Democrats. Not quite logical, but that's how it is. Harlequin did a good job of summing up my thoughts, but I'd like to add that I expect SD to be ignored, silenced and ridiculed regardless of which bloc wins the election.

  22. #22
    Oliphaunt
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    Default Re: Wherein I, a leftie Swede, explain why I will vote right in the next election

    Quote Originally posted by Claptree
    To avoid further misunderstanding: SD = Sverigedemokraterna, S = Social Democrats
    Yes, but I didn't expect dark smoky eyes to use the Swedish party marker system. Besides, it should be sd and s if he were.
    I expect SD to be ignored, silenced and ridiculed regardless of which bloc wins the election.
    Oh yes. It certainly won't be confined to Socialdemokraterna.

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