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Thread: If you want prisoners to be raped in prison, you are a danger to society

  1. #1
    Indifferent to bacon Julie's avatar
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    Default If you want prisoners to be raped in prison, you are a danger to society

    Inspired by a thread on the dope where a poster wants Bernie Madoff to be raped in prison:

    If you want someone to be sent to prison and raped, you are morally defective, ethically retarded, and pose a danger to society. You want certain prisoners to have the opportunity to revisit their crimes (like rape) while in prison. You want those prisoners to be sexually gratified for your own enjoyment. You want other prisoners to be sexually humiliated for your own enjoyment.

    In what way are you better than a rapist yourself?

  2. #2
    Free Exy Cluricaun's avatar
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    Default Re: If you want prisoners to be raped in prison, you are a danger to society

    Several news stories that I can't be arsed to find again have mentioned that he's in for a rough go of it in the pen as it's supposed that he will be extorted for protection money and if he can't or won't give it up that he will be in a great deal of danger and faces even harsher treatment for his percieved participation in the current downward turn of the economy.

    He'll be lucky if it's just rape.
    Hell, if I didn't do things just because they made me feel a bit ridiculous, I wouldn't have much of a social life. - Santo Rugger.

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    Elephant
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    Default Re: If you want prisoners to be raped in prison, you are a danger to society

    I've often had the same thoughts, Julie. What I think we hear sometimes, is people's anger over the crime, reflected in such comments. I don't think they've followed through to the realization that prison rape is a cruel and unusual punishment, and should not be celebrated.

    Here's how I look at it, from an ethical standpoint. I'm going to take an example from the Bible, please don't think it means that I'm a raging Xtian evangelist. Please.

    Anyway, in this story about ol' Moses, and the parting of the sea, after Moses and his folks get on the other side, the ones pursuing them get drowned when the sea closes back up. Moses' people shout for joy, but god jumps on them and says something like Don't rejoice at the destruction of living creatures.

    That's my philosophy about criminals. No matter how dastardly the crime, nobody should be punished with abuse. And rape is abuse.

    Cluricaun: won't he be going to some 'white-collar' prison?
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    Indifferent to bacon Julie's avatar
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    Default Re: If you want prisoners to be raped in prison, you are a danger to society

    It just baffles me that someone wants a rapist to have free rein.

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    Default Re: If you want prisoners to be raped in prison, you are a danger to society

    Quote Originally posted by Julie
    It just baffles me that someone wants a rapist to have free rein.
    It all stems from this bullshit that gets spouted about how comfortable and luxurious prisons are -- all that stupid opinion you hear about how murderers are wiling away their days watching cable in pleasant conditions. It's the same self-righteous outrage that makes people support that fuckhead sheriff in Arizona and the like. Once someone commits a crime, they apparently forfeit any right to even the most basic human decency we expect out of people.

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    Default Re: If you want prisoners to be raped in prison, you are a danger to society

    I don't normally jump on a bandwagon simply to say how much I agree, but I will this time. To my way of thinking, there are two major issues here.

    The first is the erosion of our own character. I believe that any time we wish ill on another as revenge for the wrongs they have committed, we lessen ourselves and the fabric of our society. That's also the main reason I'm opposed to capital punishment -- not for what it does to the condemned but for what it does to the rest of us for supporting it or condoning it. To paraphrase Janis Joplin, I think it takes away another little piece of our soul.

    The second issue is redemption or rehabilitation. The more cruelly one is treated, the less likely it becomes that they will emerge redeemed, rehabilitated or reformed. I'm not saying I favor a life of ease for those in prison, but I do believe it is to our own advantage if we put more emphasis on finding ways to prepare prisoners for a productive return to society.

    I suppose I sound like the biggest goodie-two-shoes around, but I don't think I really am. I think the bottom line is that unless we just kill 'em all (which I don't think anyone but the most wretched would favor), we really should worry less about punishment and revenge and more about the future -- when they'll be getting out.

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    Stegodon
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    Default Re: If you want prisoners to be raped in prison, you are a danger to society

    Some prisons are relatively luxurious. When I was in the Air Force, there was a federal minimum security prison on the base. No fences, no barbed wire, just a line painted on the road that prisoners were not supposed to cross. The prisoners spent their days doing things like tending the General's wife's flowers. They had their own tennis courts and swimming pool, and their cells were larger than the room I had in the barracks.

    Prison rape is a crime, and those that commit it should be held accountable. That noted, I'm not losing any sleep worrying about Madoff getting pounded in the ass. He's ruined plenty of lives with his scheme, stolen money and retirement security from people that trusted him.
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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Default Re: If you want prisoners to be raped in prison, you are a danger to society

    You are right Julie, NinetyWt and Excalibre but there is an element of schadenfreude and old fashion punishment. Some criminals seem to deserve more than just prison. It seems only just, if they get cruel and unusual punishment. I know it is wrong, but in the silly Adam Sandler vehicle Little Nicky where they show Hitler getting a pineapple shoved up his rectum daily as his punishment made me laugh.

    Many people are not thinking about the act itself but just that a criminal like Madoff who has been living high of the hog all his life deserves the most degrading of punishments. Being made someone's "bitch" fits the most degrading of punishments for many people. I think they would be equally happy with a "Tar and Feathering" or "public whipping" on his way to jail.

    I am not excusing the behavior, just explaining it. Also as I said, I am not free of these thoughts. I guess deep down I hope there is a special place where Hitler or Stalin are abused daily.

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    Default Re: If you want prisoners to be raped in prison, you are a danger to society

    Quote Originally posted by What Exit?
    You are right Julie, NinetyWt and Excalibre but there is an element of schadenfreude and old fashion punishment. Some criminals seem to deserve more than just prison. It seems only just, if they get cruel and unusual punishment. I know it is wrong, but in the silly Adam Sandler vehicle Little Nicky where they show Hitler getting a pineapple shoved up his rectum daily as his punishment made me laugh.
    I actually don't dispute that the basic function of prison is retribution on the part of society. We don't have prisons in order to rehabilitate criminals (it would be nice if it happened, but no one really has any idea how to go about doing it.) The reason we have prisons is because we want to deter crime, and we want to make criminals suffer.

    I just don't think sexual assault is an appropriate method. I don't think we should cut people's limbs off either. (Or, for that matter, put them to death.) I just think society and the State should aim to be better than the worst people in society, rather than deciding it's only fair that we can be as bad to criminals as they are to us.


    I am not excusing the behavior, just explaining it. Also as I said, I am not free of these thoughts. I guess deep down I hope there is a special place where Hitler or Stalin are abused daily.
    I don't think anyone is free of these thoughts. I sure as fuck am not. I just generally think we're better off not acting on them.

  10. #10
    Indifferent to bacon Julie's avatar
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    Default Re: If you want prisoners to be raped in prison, you are a danger to society

    Quote Originally posted by What Exit?
    Many people are not thinking about the act itself but just that a criminal like Madoff who has been living high of the hog all his life deserves the most degrading of punishments.
    The idea that Madoff is worse than rapists, so much worse that he should be the victim of them, is absolutely nuts to me. NUTS.

  11. #11
    Stegodon
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    Default Re: If you want prisoners to be raped in prison, you are a danger to society

    Quote Originally posted by Julie

    The idea that Madoff is worse than rapists, so much worse that he should be the victim of them, is absolutely nuts to me. NUTS.
    Even a serial rapist harms what...maybe a couple dozen people? Madoff harmed thousands of people, some of whom are now ruined financially. Instead of retiring to that quiet little place in the country, they'll be struggling to make ends meet after saving all their lives. Madoff is a vicious predator.
    Valete,
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    Elephant
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    Default Re: If you want prisoners to be raped in prison, you are a danger to society

    Well, he is getting more time than most rapists, IIRC.

    While I'm not wishing him to be raped, I'd rather see him go to the proverbial pound-me-in-the-ass prison than Club Fed.
    I do not bite my thumb at you, but I bite my thumb.

  13. #13
    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Default Re: If you want prisoners to be raped in prison, you are a danger to society

    Quote Originally posted by Julie
    Quote Originally posted by What Exit?
    Many people are not thinking about the act itself but just that a criminal like Madoff who has been living high of the hog all his life deserves the most degrading of punishments.
    The idea that Madoff is worse than rapists, so much worse that he should be the victim of them, is absolutely nuts to me. NUTS.
    Think of it this way. A rapist may have ruined the life of a few people. Madoff may have ruined hundreds of lives and contributed to the general financial disaster that is affecting thousands or millions or even billions of people. He is at least a poster boy for the abuse of the financial system by the Wall Street Insiders.

    So while the rapist is a violent sociopath, Madoff's greed has probably affected adversely far more people. I know there is a direct correlation between less grants being available to non-profits as Madoff stole money from charitable trusts that made the mistake of trusting him. So I think I can argue that he is worse than most rapists.

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    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
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    Default Re: If you want prisoners to be raped in prison, you are a danger to society

    Does anyone think Madoff deliberately set out to ruin other people, in order to feather his own nest? I'm no supporter of his, but if you are going to compare him to a rapist, it'd have to be one who specialised in attacking women who slept naked outdoors.
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

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    Stegodon
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    Default Re: If you want prisoners to be raped in prison, you are a danger to society

    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov
    Does anyone think Madoff deliberately set out to ruin other people, in order to feather his own nest?
    Yes. He isn't the only one who did that, but I think that's exactly what he did.
    WTF did I just say?

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    Oliphaunt
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    Default Re: If you want prisoners to be raped in prison, you are a danger to society

    Quote Originally posted by Excalibre
    I actually don't dispute that the basic function of prison is retribution on the part of society. We don't have prisons in order to rehabilitate criminals (it would be nice if it happened, but no one really has any idea how to go about doing it.) The reason we have prisons is because we want to deter crime, and we want to make criminals suffer.

    I just don't think sexual assault is an appropriate method. I don't think we should cut people's limbs off either. (Or, for that matter, put them to death.) I just think society and the State should aim to be better than the worst people in society, rather than deciding it's only fair that we can be as bad to criminals as they are to us.
    Seems a little more complex than that. Seems like, since we don't know how the heck to rehabilitate them (and I agree with you that we seem to have no fucking clue about that), and we don't want to be as bad as they are or to take away their rights, that instead we hope "they" punish each other. Any of the classic punishments we could inflict on them - stocks, whippings, starvation, forced labor - have been deemed too cruel to continue in these enlightened times, so the only punishment most of us see a prison providing is boredom. Boredom may indeed be a brutal punishment, but it's not a very visible one or an emotionally satisfying one. So we secretly hope that the criminals can punish one another, because we don't know how to do that and still like ourselves in the morning.

    The judge isn't ordering a State official to perform prison rape, or beatings, or any other form of active punishment beyond restraint. Yet all those things may indeed happen at the hands of a lowlife thug we don't have to like. Keeps our hands clean and gets the prisoner the punishment we really crave. The fact that this happens because of the system we've set up is something we can skip thinking about until after lunch, or maybe next Tuesday...


    Yes, there was some amount of sarcasm employed in this writing of this post. How much, I leave as an exercise for the reader.
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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Default Re: If you want prisoners to be raped in prison, you are a danger to society

    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov
    Does anyone think Madoff deliberately set out to ruin other people, in order to feather his own nest? I'm no supporter of his, but if you are going to compare him to a rapist, it'd have to be one who specialised in attacking women who slept naked outdoors.
    Slight change. I think Madoff set out to feather his own nest not caring what it did to hundreds or thousands of others.

  18. #18
    Why so serious? Tinker's avatar
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    Default Re: If you want prisoners to be raped in prison, you are a danger to society

    Unethical thoughts don't make a person a danger to society. They have to have the WILL to ACT on it.

    So no, the thread title is incorrect.
    "And I hope I don't get born again, 'cuz one time was enough!" -- Mark Sandman

  19. #19
    Indifferent to bacon Julie's avatar
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    Default Re: If you want prisoners to be raped in prison, you are a danger to society

    Quote Originally posted by Tinker
    Unethical thoughts don't make a person a danger to society. They have to have the WILL to ACT on it.

    So no, the thread title is incorrect.
    Saying it in a public forum spreads the idea that it's okay.

    So, I say in a public forum that it's not okay.

  20. #20
    Stegodon
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    Default Re: If you want prisoners to be raped in prison, you are a danger to society

    Prison should be about punishment and deterrence, not vengeance. I'm not sure that a base human desire to combine them makes a person morally defective, though. Acting on it, legislating vengeance, sure we can all agree that would be Very Wrong. But if the majority of society quietly enjoys the idea of someone who wronged people being wronged themselves, well they aren't all dangerous.
    Science flies you to the moon; religion flies you into buildings.

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    Default Re: If you want prisoners to be raped in prison, you are a danger to society

    Whenever I read or hear someone wishing this I just think who the hell d'ya think is going to be doing the raping.

  22. #22
    Stegodon
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    Default Re: If you want prisoners to be raped in prison, you are a danger to society

    Quote Originally posted by Excalibre
    Quote Originally posted by Julie
    It just baffles me that someone wants a rapist to have free rein.
    It all stems from this bullshit that gets spouted about how comfortable and luxurious prisons are -- all that stupid opinion you hear about how murderers are wiling away their days watching cable in pleasant conditions. It's the same self-righteous outrage that makes people support that fuckhead sheriff in Arizona and the like. Once someone commits a crime, they apparently forfeit any right to even the most basic human decency we expect out of people.
    Well, yea. And did you notice how said sherrif changed his tune when the 'criminal' was a celebrity? Shared a press conference w/him while he was locked up. what utter fucking bullshit.

    re: OP, absolutely I agree. I work w/retunring prisoners - it ain't funny to me one bit.
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  23. #23
    Stegodon
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    Default Re: If you want prisoners to be raped in prison, you are a danger to society

    Wishes for sexual violence against anyone for any reason trouble me, even if they're meant in jest.
    I must leave this planet, if only for an hour.

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