Any tilers out there that could answer a question?

[Splat!]

Hi all, I was hoping to get an answer for a floor tiling question. I've had a tiler in my house laying some floor tiles for the last...4...5...6.... seems like forever...days.

He has been very slow, turning up late almost every day, and not getting much done each day as far as we could tell. Finally we'd had enough, and a couple of days ago, told him that he had to be finished by today at the latest. Which of course he wasn't. <sigh> Despite picking up the pace a little over the last day or two, he still has some work left to do.

The end appears to be in sight, however. Tomorrow he says just has to lay some final tiles, and then do the grouting. My only concern is, originally he said that the tiles needed to be left overnight before grouting. Now he says that he can lay tiles and then grout straight away.

I'm concerned that he is just rushing to finish the job (after dragging his feet so badly for the first 4 or 5 days), and cutting corners by doing the grouting before he really should. Are there any tilers out there that can tell me if laying the tiles and then grouting straight away is a bad thing? Or any possible problems that this might cause in the future? At this point I am sick and tired of this guy, and just want him done and out of my house, but if he is doing something that will cause problems in the future, I will insist that he does the job properly, and come back 24 hours later to do the grouting.

Hope there is someone who can answer this for me, and let me know if I can let this guy finish tomorrow, or if not, what problems it might cause so that I can argue the point intelligently with him.

Thanks

[InLucemEdita]

The tiles that he laid 4 or 5 days ago have had more than enough time to dry.
He can grout all of those without any problem.

If the only tiles left to dry are small pieces around the edges, then I wouldn't worry a bit.

The only problem I see with grouting newly laid tiles is that he might be stepping or pressing on them before they are dry and thereby causing them to be uneven.

I wouldn't really worry much about this.

I wonder, how much of an area is he tiling?

BTW I am not a professional, just a self-taught amateur who has completely tiled two full bathrooms, including half-walls, tub surrounds, etc and had them come out looking AWESOME...if I do say so myself. A few other small floor projects under my belt as well.

[ulfhjorr]

Another non-professional checking in. I'm a vendor rep for flooring departments in Home Depot stores, though, and I talked about this with the tile guy in the store I'm working in today.

Basically, you definitely want to let the mortar set for 24 hours, no questions asked. However, if he's working in the areas already done and staying away from the freshest areas, then there shouldn't be a problem. (And if he's really this slow, then those tiles should have a month or so to dry anyway, right? )

[danceswithcats]

Contractor, here. I've always made it a point to cover my butt by obtaining and following manufacturer's technical publications. Without knowing what product is being used, one cannot state with certainty, however, I've never encountered a mortar which required more than 72 hours setting time before grouting. Grouting before the minimum set time does carry the risk of causing disbonding, which is why fast track jobs demand specialty mortars, such as those made by Ardex.

[Splat!]

Hi, thanks for your responses..and thanks ulfhjorr for asking your colleague.

I don't know what materials he's using (the only words I know in relation to this stuff are "tiles" and "grout"). It's floor tiles, being laid on a concrete slab floor, with some kind of sloppy cement stuff used to stick the tiles to the floor? Sorry I can't give much more help than that, I don't know what the stuff is called.

Grouting before the minimum set time does carry the risk of causing disbonding

Does that mean that there's a risk that the tiles will separate, or the grouting will? I'm not sure what disbonding is.

how much of an area is he tiling?

It's an area about 25m[sup:jdpa6puo]2[/sup:jdpa6puo] (or so the quote says). It's an "L" shaped hallway that runs along the front of the house, then down about 1/2 way through the house.

I guess notwithstanding the disbonding thing, I shouldn't get too worried about it. He only has to tile a few little bits of the border that is running around the whole area, and there are plenty of places to step while he is grouting that mean he won't be standing on the newly laid tiles. He did say that he would lay the new tiles, and then grout the other parts of the area first, making sure that the newly laid tiles are grouted last.

I'm just twitchy about it - so far he hasn't been terribly reliable, and has changed his mind/contradicted himself so many times, I don't think I'd believe him if he told me he was lying! I was just wondering if by grouting tiles within an hour or so after they have been laid, it was going to cause problems in the future that I'd need to get fixed (e.g loose tiles or something). Sounds like that is a risk (if I'm understanding the disbonding thing), but at this point, I just want this guy finished and out :evil:, so I'll let him get on with it and hope that he'll be done by the end of today.

(Although given his past history, I'm pretty willing to bet there'll be some other reason why he has to knock off early, and can't finish up today....)

Thanks again for your responses all

[Johnny]

I used to have a gnu that was a whiz at laying tile. No, really! I put him in a room that was empty except for a stack of tiles. The next morning when I went in, I discovered that he'd tiled the room!

Other than that, there was nothing special about him. He was a typical gnu and tiler too.

[danceswithcats]

Disbonding refers to anything chemical or physical which causes A to stop being stuck to B.

Ordinary cementitious mortars have a curing time of 48-72 hours, as stated above, unless otherwise indicated by the mortar manufacturer. Activity on the placed tile prior to the recommended setting time may cause problems.

[danceswithcats]

I used to have a gnu that was a whiz at laying tile. No, really! I put him in a room that was empty except for a stack of tiles. The next morning when I went in, I discovered that he'd tiled the room!

Other than that, there was nothing special about him. He was a typical gnu and tiler too.

If there is a bad pun hell, you're going there, man.

[Splat!]

Thanks again danceswithcats. He tells me that the mortar is 8hr drying time, but he recommends that we don't walk on the tiles for 24 hours to be sure.

It was all a moot point anyway, because, surprise, surprise, he finished laying the tiles today but ran out of time to do the grouting. So he'll be back again tomorrow.... :cry:

[danceswithcats]

Thanks again danceswithcats. He tells me that the mortar is 8hr drying time, but he recommends that we don't walk on the tiles for 24 hours to be sure.

It was all a moot point anyway, because, surprise, surprise, he finished laying the tiles today but ran out of time to do the grouting. So he'll be back again tomorrow.... :cry:

8 hours? WOOF! I'd like to see the spec for the product he's using. I'm getting ready to do a bathroom floor, and am delighted to hear the homeowner is leaving for several days to visit her new grandchild. Zero traffic is best!

[Splat!]

8 hours? WOOF! I'd like to see the spec for the product he's using.

Shouldn't that be "Meow"?

I took a look at the empty bags of the adhesive stuff for you, it's something called "Addflextra" from Atlas Tile Adhesive company. Not much info on Google that I could find. The instructions on the back definately say 24 hours before grouting. I couldn't see anything that said how long before you can walk on the tiles. But we have been keeping off the tiles as much as possible, so as little traffic as we can manage. The kids are going nuts, being shut out of half the house!

Looks like he may not be done today after all. I had to duck out for 20mins yesterday afternoon, during which time the shifty bugger managed to disappear, despite telling me he'd still be there when I got back. When I checked what he'd done, I found yet another mistake that he's made, so instead of just grouting today, he will have to come back and rip up the tiles in this one spot and re-lay them. For the third time. :evil:

[danceswithcats]

If the bag quotes 24, I'd typically allow 48, just to be sure. I don't like tile jobs going bad.

Something you might want to do before he grouts is to check the tiles for proper bond. This can be done by 'knocking' on individual tiles with a bare knuckle and listening to the sound produced. A properly bonded tile emits a dull thud when knocked, while a disbonded tile gives a hollow sound. Better to fix a disbonded tile before grouting, as it will eventually crack, as the mortar isn't giving it proper support.

Disbonding of tiles can result from: improper trowel used to prepare mortar bed, or proper trowel held improperly resulting in shallow bed, batch of mortar used after expiration of pot life (was starting to set up), insufficient pressure applied when placing tiles, traffic before mortar was allowed to cure, insufficient stiffness (excessive flexion) of supporting substrate.

[BJMoose]

. . . The instructions on the back definately say 24 hours before grouting. I couldn't see anything that said how long before you can walk on the tiles. . . .

Given that it is impossible to grout a tile job without getting on the tile, you may regard the two times as identical.

While I can think of things that could slow down a job (having to level the floor first, choosing to install full tiles one day and cut tiles the next [sounds like an "efficiency" stunt I'd pull] or having a lot of tricky cuts to make) it sounds like you hired Sad Sack to do the job.

[Green Bean]

Can you get another tiler to finish the job? Because this guy sounds seriously incompetent.

I used to sell flooring, including tiles. Our installation managers always insisted on the full 24 hour wait before grouting. In other words, if the tilers did the job in the afternoon, they wouldn't grout the next morning. They'd wait until the afternoon. As danceswithcats says, it's always best to CYA and follow the manufacturers' instructions. If you're going to fudge things, you really have to know what you're doing. It sounds like your guy doesn't.

The manufacturers know darn well that flooring jobs are very disruptive to the homeowner and having to do a job over multiple days is annoying to the tiler. It's obvious that shorter cure times would be a big competitive advantage for their product. So they have no incentive at all to say that you have to wait 24 hours when you could really get by with 6 or 8. They build in a margin of error, of course, but not 300-400%!

And I'm finding it hard to believe that it's taking that long to tile 25 square meters.* (That's 270 square feet to us Americans) Is there some sort of complicated pattern or something? Borders? How big are the tiles? Was there a complicated rip-up?

Are you paying him by the job, day, or hour?

* I'm assuming you don't mean 25 meters squared, because that would be insane.