A Kinda Half-Assed Apology From Ed, Sorta Thing

[Scissorjack]

I'm not sure if we're supposed to link to the Dope directly or not, so I'll just quote from Ed's latest response in the "Your Efforts To Improve The Dope Thread in ATMB:

"I wasn't indending to alienate the SDMB community, and to the extent this has occurred I deeply regret it.

"Communication has certainly been an issue and could stand to be improved"

Blah blah, sorry but week need money, great new things to be announced next week, we promise. Stay tuned, please. Please?

Heh. Dude sounds worried. Great new things on the horizon, you say? Be still my heart, for I have never heard that one from the board management before.

I'm gonna quote Nada from The Sandman: 'And now what? You expect me to accept that and say no more? One half-hearted apology, and you've somehow kissed it all better?... And you "think perhaps you should apologise"? You... You.. You make me sick.'

[Q.E.D.]

[Mod Note]

Links are okay. Invitations to follow them and stir up trouble are not.

ETA, I know you weren't planning on doing so; that's just general advice for links back the the SDMB.

[Liberal]

...to the extent this has occurred I deeply regret it.

I apologize if somehow my vehicular homicide caused your family any distress.

Oh, thank you, Liberal, for that apology. What a great man you are to speak to us that way. We can no longer blame you for your drunken recklessness. It is our fault that you killed our son. Will you take us back? Please? Oh, please?

[NinetyWt]

You know, my first ex-husband used to hit me.

When I sued him for divorce, he sent me flowers.

I threw that shit in the trash.


:: dusts hands off ::

[SmartAleq]

Gotta love that pink pussy lipped passive voice thing he has goin' on...

[Green Bean]

I do believe I hear the sound of a bicycle in reverse.

[SmartAleq]

To quote Barry McKenzie, "May your balls turn to bicycle wheels and backpedal up yer arse!"

And let's not forget how that verse ends--"Go and dip yer left eye in hot cocky shit and stick yer head up a dead bear's bum!"

Go Ed.

[Oakminster]

Hmmm...kinda wondering if somebody above Ed noticed all that "record high traffic" happened to be in the outbound lanes?

From what I've seen, the Dope has fewer threads, fewer posts, and the overall quality of content is in a nosedive.
"To a nicer guy, it couldn't happen". As I posted in the "Passive Resistance" thread, my best stuff is going to be posted right here at Domebo. I hope others will do the same.

[Liberal]

Guys, c'mon! He's promising future goodies! Just think what we will be missing in a few short years.

• A brand new forum[/*:m:2ahck9d2]
• A new user status[/*:m:2ahck9d2]
• Four new rules[/*:m:2ahck9d2]
• Eight new mods[/*:m:2ahck9d2]
• A new grievance committee composed of TubaDiva, Lynn Bodoni, and SkipMagic[/*:m:2ahck9d2]

The possibilities are endless

[featherlou]

The phrase "too little, too late" comes to my mind. We told him and told him and told him and he wouldn't listen to us common folk, even though some of the people trying to get through had been on the boards almost since Day One and were prolific, non-trouble making posters (and that's a whole bunch of us here).

[Zombies! At the Window!]

I laughed a little bit when I saw him trotting out the old, great "Exciting new things are coming, but I can't tell you what yet!"

[leander]

I agree it sounds like the same old, same old. But it makes me wonder -- what on earth do they think they can do to "make amends" and bring posters back?

IMO, they'd have to grovel (which they hate), sincerely apologise (will never happen), fire a few mods (heh), and take the Pit back to the way it was. And even then, I don't think most folks would go back.

So...what would it take to get you to go back to the Dope?

[iampunha]

Garbage.

He still doesn't have the balls or courage to admit, full-throated, that he fucked up.

When Facebook released its stalker edition a few years ago, users were fucking PISSED.

And we TOLD Mark. And at first he was all "Yeah, but being able to keep track of your friends is cool."


No dice, junior. Going to an ivy league school doesn't mean you know what we want; it makes your diploma nice and shiny.

When we didn't stop complaining about how much easier it made to track people without even trying, he heard.

And they rolled things back pretty fiercely.

In two days.


It took them two days to get things to something reasonable.

And there was no passive-ass-voiced "Communication could be improved" bullshit.

Zotti, you fucked up, you fucked up again, you fucked up BAD, you fucked up BAD again, and you still lack the balls to look us in the face and admit you fucked up.

Be a fucking man and own your mistake.

But you won't. You won't write "I made a mistake." You'll say you deeply regret something that happened to the extent it did.

Oh, yeah?

It did, fucko.

And it's on you.

And communication could have been better three cuntlapping years ago, you illiterate pile of molding shit. It's been garbage since you decided you were far too busy "editing" Cecil to do anything but come down from on high every once in a while to issue an edict and wait for people to kiss your goddamn pinky ring.


You lost my money a few years ago. You lost my trust and respect along with it.

And now you'd better hope to all things holy -- and unholy, and lawful good, and whatever else you can find -- that you haven't killed the board the way P2P did.

Cuz fella, your place sure does have some people I used to hang with.

But dealing with your fiats ain't worth the bother. Anyone I really want to be talking to, I am, and anyone I come across from this time to whenever is just a pleasant surprise you had nothing to do with.

Fuck you and the Barn House you rode in on.

[Johnny]

We told him and told him and told him and he wouldn't listen...

'I told you I'd shoot! But you didn't believe me! Why didn't you believe me?'

[Scissorjack]

[Mod Note]

Links are okay. Invitations to follow them and stir up trouble are not.

ETA, I know you weren't planning on doing so; that's just general advice for links back the the SDMB.

OK, good to be clear. I am posting in that thread in ATMB, but I'm not gonna bring here over there. Just pisses me off is all.

[Oakminster]

I agree it sounds like the same old, same old. But it makes me wonder -- what on earth do they think they can do to "make amends" and bring posters back?

IMO, they'd have to grovel (which they hate), sincerely apologise (will never happen), fire a few mods (heh), and take the Pit back to the way it was. And even then, I don't think most folks would go back.

So...what would it take to get you to go back to the Dope?

That would be a good start. No more modding by Ed. Lynn, Marley, and Skip have to go, preferably with a full ceremony of cutting the rank from their uniforms, and the walk of shame as the posters turn our backs to them as they pass. I'd also want some hookers & blow, and this place would have to die...which I do not want to happen. I like this place. I may continue to toss in a fluff post sometimes, but I'm pretty much done with posting anything with much substance there.

[iampunha]

So...what would it take to get you to go back to the Dope?

Scrub the leadership, on the SDMB and overall.

Users generate content, so they should pick mods. (I know this is never going to happen, beginning with the leadership scrub, so just let me have some fun here.)

In fact, ban Ed and Jenny from the site for life. Dex, while you're at it. Having them there has hurt the site.

Pay Una to run the thing. Og knows she knows how to do it, and she's worlds better at communicating as a human than Jenny, Ed and Dex put together in a room full of emotionally supersensitive empaths.

And as the last straw, remove the facade from that incredibly pathetic "No, Ed just 'edits' Cecil's columns!"

We're fucking grownups (many of us literally). Give it to us straight.

Marley needs to get therapy on how to not be a vapid, passive-aggressive shitstick. You want to come with it in a discussion? Come with it. Don't dance around an invisible pole. Paint it fucking black (a GREAT color, btw) and let's address the subject, not some tiny fucking detail you think derails every general argument.

Also, I want a pony.

Because you know none of that shit is ever going to happen. Jenny, Ed and Dex have too much ego wrapped up in that site to possibly let go. (I haven't been around for Lynn's descent from what was once at least a pretty solid moderating chair, so I can't speak to anything there.)

[McNutty]

Someone want to give us a link?

[iampunha]

Someone want to give us a link?

May it help you as much as it hurt me:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/sho ... tcount=102

[Tuckerfan]

The phrase "too little, too late" comes to my mind. We told him and told him and told him and he wouldn't listen to us common folk, even though some of the people trying to get through had been on the boards almost since Day One and were prolific, non-trouble making posters (and that's a whole bunch of us here).

Don't forget the posters (like Jonathan Chance, IIRC) who have both newspaper and new media experience and were saying, "This is not what you should be doing if you want to stay in business, dumbfucks."

Nor do I think Ed and Co realize just how dire things in the newspaper industry are, despite being smackdab in the middle of it. There was an article about the NYT (which is in trouble) on one of the techblogs, and after they ran the numbers, they figured out that the NYT would save money if they ditched the dead tree edition, and gave everyone who subscribed for two years a free Kindle. For a paper like the Reader which relies on advertising for its income to not begin thinking so far outside the box that they're halfway to orbit, is almost certainly a death sentence.

Ed's meddling with the boards not only drives away the hardcore customer base (which a business in tough times should want to retain at all costs), but disinclines new customers from showing up as well, since there's nothing there for them to enjoy.

Is there a good word to describe someone who's actions that are so shortsighted and self-destructive?

[Scissorjack]

Is there a good word to describe someone who's actions that are so shortsighted and self-destructive?

There is now: to Zotti.

Zotti {vb, trans}: to arrogantly implement a poorly conceived plan despite a total lack of ability only to catastrophically exacerbate matters.

"Man, the timing was out in my Camaro so I beat on the sparkplugs with a rock, and now it won't run at all. Dude, I totally zottied it."

[iampunha]

Don't forget the posters (like Jonathan Chance, IIRC) who have both newspaper and new media experience and were saying, "This is not what you should be doing if you want to stay in business, dumbfucks."

And it was more than that, even. For example, when the Stage Manager episode went down, you had sysadmins like catsix (think what you like of her, but she's got brains) saying that in the private sector, doing what Jenny did would have been grounds for immediate dismissal, don't even bother getting your coffee cup, and hope the customer doesn't sue you so far into the ground you come out the other end.

Remind me again what horrendously severe punishment Jenny suffered?

The mismanagement of not only the financial element ("Here, let us give you money, and here are ways you can do it!" "No." ... "OK, give us money or you can't be here anymore." "?") but the human element -- making the admins minor deities -- has set the board up for a future of failure unless and until management is rebooted.

On a different computer.

People who have failed for so long to make a profit out of many people wanting to be in one place at the same time cannot, I think, have the foggiest fucking clue how to do it if they haven't done it yet. These are not scientists fine-tuning the next vaccine for whatever. These are people who got in on the ground floor and think that entitles them to run the place however they want.

Well, you screw with your base and you get screwed. And making the Pit more search-engine friendly would not even be all that difficult. Daily Kos manages it quite easily. When you get there, there's a rule about no profanity in diary titles, because that's what the search engines look at.

Offer hearty fuck-yous to people in your thread all you want (though it gets old). Just don't do it in the title.

And even ignoring the issue of "That rule precedes you," you discuss it with the people who make your site popular. You get feedback from them, not the lint in your ass.

If you want to grow a site, you keep the site's denizens happy. You don't just show up once a year with a new rule. You're not Sister goddamn Santa Claus with a ban ruler.

[beebs]

Meh, I really can't even get worked up about this anymore. I'm not resigning or leaving in a huff, I'm just not even that interested in making any sort of a big deal. The SDMB used to be the first place I checked everyday on the net, and now, it's just not.

I'll still read there, and maybe leave an occassional post. I just don't think there's going to be a way to make it feel like the same "good ol' days". On the brightside I've always enjoyed watching a good trainwreck, I just never wished for it to be like this.

[TheFlame]

Meh, I really can't even get worked up about this anymore. I'm not resigning or leaving in a huff, I'm just not even that interested in making any sort of a big deal. The SDMB used to be the first place I checked everyday on the net, and now, it's just not.

Same here. The Dope has been a central part of my online life - reading it far more than posting - for going on ten years, but now I really don't care any more. Ed, Lynn, TD and jdavis through their incompetence and stupidity have driven the thing into the ground. Domebo looks to me like the future, whereas the SDMB is way past its sell-by date.

[Dudley Garrett]

Guys, c'mon! He's promising future goodies! Just think what we will be missing in a few short years.

• A brand new forum[/*:m:1shzjx6a]
• A new user status[/*:m:1shzjx6a]
• Four new rules[/*:m:1shzjx6a]
• Eight new mods[/*:m:1shzjx6a]
• A new grievance committee composed of TubaDiva, Lynn Bodoni, and SkipMagic[/*:m:1shzjx6a]

The possibilities are endless

Moderator Note:

Liberal, stay on topic. Do not deviate again.

(just kidding)

---

This is a good list, Liberal, but I'm afraid it could actually be what he brings -- or at least along similar lines.

[Martini Enfield]

Personally, I think it's time to drop the "Cecil Adams" thing. It might have been novel 20 years go, but in these days of Google and Wikipedia, it's... lame? No, that's not quite what I'm looking for. Dated, I think, is probably the best way to describe it.

As several people in several threads on the all three boards have said, the SDMB has gone way, way, way beyond the "Cecil Adams" thing. I'd never even heard of Cecil Adams or the Straight Dope until I joined the boards, and even after that I very rarely read the columns.

I read Ed's apology and thought it sounded very much like someone had been given an ear-bashing by a Higher-Up who'd seen the Alexa graphs and wanted to know why they looked like a ski-ramp. I mean, lots of eloquent, articulate posters have expressed their concerns in a non-whiny, non-bitchy, non-frothing-at-the-mouth way, and the silence from Mt. Cecil has been deafening, interspersed with the odd thunderbolt of "If you don't like it, fuck off and get your own messageboards. With or without blackjack and bookers, we don't care." Then, suddenly, after realising that over 1000 members have left, and that represents most of their "regulars", and that he might very well find himself in a McJob as a result of this (in fact, he said here ([url]http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10588951&postcount=211p/url]) that he'd rather have a job at McDonalds or Starbucks than run a messageboard with a free-for-all Pit, if that's what it came down to), it's "No, wait, don't go! We didn't mean it! We'll get some new stuff for you all if you stay!"

It will be interesting to see the longer-term effect on the boards. They'll survive, of course, but I think the poster makeup will be very different from how it was a fortnight ago.

[Do Not Taunt]

(in fact, he said here ([url]http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10588951&postcount=211p/url]) that he'd rather have a job at McDonalds or Starbucks than run a messageboard with a free-for-all Pit, if that's what it came down to)

Hey, where were you before when I wasted like an hour looking for this very post??

[Fenris]

The passive voiced apology is what kills me--the "mistakes were made" type of phrasing.

Any 4 year old knows an apology consists of 3 (or 4, depending on the nature of the offense) elements.
1) A frank acknowledgement of what you did wrong-in an active voice ("I know I hurt you by standing you up").
2) An expression of regret--("I feel terrible for the pain I caused you")
2.5) (depending on the offense) A clear statement of precisely what you will do to make amends (sometimes not possible) ("Please let me take you out to dinner any time in the next week, whenever you want, I'll be there.")
3) A promise not to do it again.

That's it. The words "If" ("If what I said offended you, I'm sorry"--not an apology) or "but" ("I'm sorry I hurt you, but you hurt me too"--argument, not apology) can't appear. The passive voice can't be used ("I'm sorry you were hurt").

It's not that tricky--a kindergärtner knows this stuff.

[Julie]

I don't really notice most of the personalities of the mods and admins on the dope. I couldn't tell you who is the most annoying or the best mod or who made which decision where.

But I sincerely dislike Ed Zotti.

[wring]

It was the dismissive tone from the start - sure there's a set of 'usual suspects' who bitch about everyrhing.

But this was different. Scores of long term, prolific, administration supporting, charter members (ie paid from pay to post day one), voicing in strong terms, their displeasure. Quickly, as soon as there were new venues available, scores of posters flocked.

And more dismissiveness. I've noticed massive drop off in number of new threads, new posts etc. and now this weaseling non appology. Christ, my convicts have done better ("they said I did ... "I was implicated in a b & e", "my car hit some one")

[taters]

Meh, I really can't even get worked up about this anymore. I'm not resigning or leaving in a huff, I'm just not even that interested in making any sort of a big deal. The SDMB used to be the first place I checked everyday on the net, and now, it's just not.

I'll still read there, and maybe leave an occassional post. I just don't think there's going to be a way to make it feel like the same "good ol' days". On the brightside I've always enjoyed watching a good trainwreck, I just never wished for it to be like this.

Hey beebs, I sure hope you drop by the MMP over there once in awhile. We miss our resident trouble maker.

Like you, I'm not all "worked up" about the whole fiasco, but I am saddened. I'm not leaving either the other place either, just because there are some folks who aren't leaving and I like communicating with them.

[Exy]

Only one clause in the apology in question was in the passive voice ("communication . . . could stand to be improved") and the use of the passive was necessary there in order to coordinate the two clauses in that sentence.

[Suburban Plankton]

I popped over to that thread, and saw a comment by aldiboronti questioning whether 'over 600 people' had really left the Dope over the past week. I felt compelled to reply, just to try to get across to the people there that they really do have a crisis on their hands. In the end, what I typed out seems to have been a 'farewell post', even though I hadn't ever intended such a thing.

And then I got a database error the first time I tried to post it

[Chimera]

Refusals to do what your customers want and declarations that you'd rather work at McDonalds have a way of turning one's present employment situation into a future unemployment situation.

[featherlou]

I have to admit, I'm kind of embarrassed on behalf of Ed. What a colossal clusterfuck.

[Myrnalene]

Only one clause in the apology in question was in the passive voice ("communication . . . could stand to be improved") and the use of the passive was necessary there in order to coordinate the two clauses in that sentence.

While this may be technically true, I think he would be well served to concentrate more on conveying some genuine remorse. People are of course using "passive voice" to stand for his mealy-mouthed refusal to take responsibility for this mess. "I wasn't intending to alienate the SDMB community, and to the extent this has occurred I deeply regret it " is another example.

[Exy]

Only one clause in the apology in question was in the passive voice ("communication . . . could stand to be improved") and the use of the passive was necessary there in order to coordinate the two clauses in that sentence.

While this may be technically true, I think he would be well served to concentrate more on conveying some genuine remorse.

I agree completely; his apology sounded grudging and half-assed.

People are of course using "passive voice" to stand for his mealy-mouthed refusal to take responsibility for this mess. "I wasn't intending to alienate the SDMB community, and to the extent this has occurred I deeply regret it " is another example.

I don't disagree with people's irritation, it's just that 'passive voice' is an actual term with an actual meaning, and this ain't it. It doesn't mean "refusal to take responsibility".

[What Exit?]

The passive voiced apology is what kills me--the "mistakes were made" type of phrasing.

Any 4 year old knows an apology consists of 3 (or 4, depending on the nature of the offense) elements.
1) A frank acknowledgement of what you did wrong-in an active voice ("I know I hurt you by standing you up").
2) An expression of regret--("I feel terrible for the pain I caused you")
2.5) (depending on the offense) A clear statement of precisely what you will do to make amends (sometimes not possible) ("Please let me take you out to dinner any time in the next week, whenever you want, I'll be there.")
3) A promise not to do it again.

That's it. The words "If" ("If what I said offended you, I'm sorry"--not an apology) or "but" ("I'm sorry I hurt you, but you hurt me too"--argument, not apology) can't appear. The passive voice can't be used ("I'm sorry you were hurt").

It's not that tricky--a kindergärtner knows this stuff.

I woke up late and visited the Dope first other than some techie PMs here. I posted in that thread that I thought your post was great Fenris and I thought I would repeat it the complement.

I find myself a lot more willing to wait for changes and improvements over there simply because CRSP gave us domebo to hang out at. I wasn't going to make the jump at first even though the Dope was frustrating me, but then I saw too many of my friends already over here the first day. I also saw a chance to invite back posters that always made the Dope interesting like Excalibre. I'm glad others had the same idea.

I don't know if I'll ever really go back, I sort of doubt it, but I did enjoy my time there. I was surprised Ed Zotti posted in the thread, so I will not give up entirely. I was just under whelmed by his reply, which I think I managed to convey in my response.

I am surprised the DSyoung did not show up to take a dump in my thread. He usually enjoys doing that in any ATMB thread critical of the dope.

Maybe, just maybe, CRSP and Giraffe have give Ed a wake up call.

[iampunha]

Only one clause in the apology in question was in the passive voice ("communication . . . could stand to be improved") and the use of the passive was necessary there in order to coordinate the two clauses in that sentence.

Neg.

"Communication has been bad in the past, and I know mine has been bad."

Active voice. Frank admission of shortcoming.

But no. Instead, passive.

(Don't mean to be rude, but this still hurts.)

[prr]

I just posted my response to Ed's lame apology--I don't want one and wouldn't believe it if, somehow, he could offer up a good one. He's spoken eloquently many times on his true feelings, and it's those arrogant, condescending, egotistical, impetuous, officious, imperious and patronizing feelings that ring true to me. To apologize, at this point, would be insincere--a mere admission that he's realized belatedly how he has screwed the best pooch a man could ever have, and an attempt to undo the damage. He's expressed himself so often, and so consistently, that he would have to have had a brain transplant to convince me he felt otherwise at this point.

[Scissorjack]

I swear, years from now they're gonna be teaching classes in Business School about how not to piss off the punters, and they're gonna be based solely on Ed. I mean, short of active malice how is it possible to be incompetent as to trash a ten-year message board with a thriving and active membership in less than a month? The guy's gonna be a legend.

[TheFlame]

Ed Zotti is the Gerald Ratner of the message board. Who else would tell their customers that they'd rather work at McDonalds than listen to them?

[Exy]

Only one clause in the apology in question was in the passive voice ("communication . . . could stand to be improved") and the use of the passive was necessary there in order to coordinate the two clauses in that sentence.

Neg.

"Communication has been bad in the past, and I know mine has been bad."

Active voice. Frank admission of shortcoming.

But no. Instead, passive.

(Don't mean to be rude, but this still hurts.)

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Yes, there are ways to express essentially the same thoughts without using the passive voice, if he had decided to rewrite the sentence. He couldn't have used the active voice in that clause without totally recasting the sentence, as you did. At any rate, the passive voice is not what made his semi-apology irksome, and I don't think he used it any more than one would expect in any similar stretch of written English.

The (legitimate) complaints you guys have about what he said are not grammar-based, that's all.

And besides, fuck him. He's a loser. He writes a moderately amusing newspaper column (that I'm betting most current and ex-SDMB posters don't read very often anyway) but he was a jerk to you guys, who are paying customers. As my grandma always told me, going off and forming your own successful message board is the best revenge. Let him flail. Think of the positives: at least this led you guys to form this place, when you could still use the SDMB to advertise it and get it off the ground. There's a very good chance the SDMB will disappear within a few months anyway, whether or not Ed zotties the place up first, because Creative Loafing is probably not long for the world. At least the SDMB users weren't caught unawares when the lights suddenly went off, right?

[BJMoose]

"I wasn't intending to alienate the SDMB community, and to the extent this has occurred I deeply regret it."

He just doesn't see his arrogance, does he? "Hey! I'm sorry you're pissed off, but I didn't mean to. It's not my fault!"

While I hesitate these days to suggest that folks look at the SDMB, some of the responses to the "apology" are quite eloquent. (It's all on the third page of the thread.)

The day the Dope was doomed was the day they gave Ed a financial stake in the thing.


Crap. I need to go. The tornado warnings are starting to fly here. (Not to worry: no threat to this particular location. Yet.) Oh, to be out of the Great Plains now that Spring is here!

[Hellestal]

It's not that tricky--a kindergärtner knows this stuff.

Emphasis added.

Yeah, I'm sure many kindergarten teachers do know this stuff. I'm less sure, however, that children attending kindergarten are similarly aware of the subtleties of apologies. There are plenty of adults besides Ed who have problems apologizing.

[Exy]

Emphasis added.

Yeah, I'm sure many kindergarten teachers do know this stuff. I'm less sure, however, that children attending kindergarten are similarly aware of the subtleties of apologies. There are plenty of adults besides Ed who have problems apologizing.

Wait who were you back at the other place? I don't remember other people citing language log, except maybe Hostile Dialect.

[pedescribe]

It will be interesting to see the longer-term effect on the boards. They'll survive, of course, but I think the poster makeup will be very different from how it was a fortnight ago.

Perhaps the most depressing part of all this mess, I think, is that it happened in a fortnight, really, the core of it. Oh, sure, the signs were there, the seeds were planted months earlier, but I had no idea that the board was so fragile, if a huge chunk of it would shatter so quickly.

[McNutty]

At any rate, the passive voice is not what made his semi-apology irksome, and I don't think he used it any more than one would expect in any similar stretch of written English.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if you don't understand what's irksome about using the passive voice here, you might be prone to making wimpy-ass, I-don't-really-mean-it-all-that-much apologies. "I'm sorry I poked you in the eye" is a thousand times better as an apology than "I'm sorry you were poked in the eye," even though "Joe delivered the newspaper" is not necessarily a thousand times better than "the newspaper was delivered." There's no comparison to "similar stretches of written English." In an apology, acknowledging fault is a critical ingredient, and if you use choose your words in a way that merely acknowledges that something bad happened instead of you did something bad, then it's a shitty apology.

And no, he wouldn't have to rewrite the sentence. All he has to say is, "I wasn't intending to alienate the SDMB community, but to the extent that I did, I deeply regret it."

[Hellestal]

Wait who were you back at the other place? I don't remember other people citing language log, except maybe Hostile Dialect.

I'm Hellestal over there (although I had a name change relatively recently; I was previously Kendall Jackson).

I was never a high-profile contributor. Only 630 posts total over there (member since August 2002), with about half that number posted in the last year.

[NinetyWt]

I had no idea that the board was so fragile, if a huge chunk of it would shatter so quickly.

Well, it wasn't, up until the tipping point. Like that Minneapolis bridge which failed a while back - it was very sound for a very long time. One day the load became too much to bear, and one plate gave way. When that one plate gave way, the members one by one followed it.

I don't think the final straw was the same thing for each of us - I can't really say what it was, for me.

I'll say this. If Brewha (or someone else) hadn't joined this board immediately, I don't think things would have turned out this way. Those few first posters started a trickle, which turned into a rivulet... the rest is history. There was a certain energy that day; as one person after another signed up, it carried a lot of other people with it.

I've reflected on what someone else commented about the SDMB - I think it was Elmwood - that it seemed so conservative. Seems to me that, for an electronic medium, it was stuck in some old ways; maybe print journalism ways for all I know. This board runs on a different paradigm, and it feels better and works better because it fits the current state of the world better.

In the end, the unwillingness to change and grow with the community is what is going to finally kill the SDMB.