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Thread: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

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    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
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    Default How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    Let's face it, this mopping up the mess after the fact doesn't seem to be working, so how can we work towards being preventative in our approach to criminality, as opposed to simply reactionary?

    We know there are 'pointers' towards a person's propensity towards criminal activity, so why isn't more work being done to recognise these signs? ( I accept there probably is, and I am just not in the loop on these projects! )

    I strongly feel that the only way to limit crimes long term, is by catching those likely to carry them out at an early age and channeling that wayward streak into something more constructive.

    Setting up 'honey traps' to lure delinquents into exposing their behaviour at an early age, is one idea I reckon might have an effect, but do any other Domeheads want to stick their 2 cents in the pot?
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

  2. #2
    Yes, I'm a cat. What's it to you? Muffin's avatar
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    How to reduce violent crime? Reduce poverty and get rid of guns.

    How to reduce white collar crime? Tighter regulations, however there is an economic cost to this.

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    Stegodon
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    I think criminality is endemic to being human. The real miracle is that we get along as well as we do, as often as we do.

    If you want to encourage and support non-criminal behavior, then do that.

    An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. "A fight is going on inside me," he said to the boy.

    "It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego." He continued, "The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you - and inside every other person, too."

    The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, "Which wolf will win?"

    The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."

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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    I like that, fessie!

    It does sort of relate to my idea about catching them young though. If a child is given a diet of no boundaries and poor discipline, it is only going to feed the mean wolf in them.
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

  5. #5
    Stegodon
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    I thought you'd like that.

    Parents who are struggling -- boy, oh boy. That's a big issue. Are you a parent? Once you have kids, you see it differently, because you see how difficult it really is.

    And yeah, it would be GREAT if people could parent better. I absolutely ADORE "Supernanny", I'm so glad to live in an age where that's on television. I don't know if the people who really need to see it are the ones watching. The families who are in crisis - they're in crisis. It's not just a matter of saying "Gee, I think I'll be a lousy parent."

    And yet, being well-intended and trying to "help" doesn't necessarily work. At all. People have to see for themselves how BAD their choices are working before they're going to change them.

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    Elephant
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    Michael Smerconish, attorney, author, radio talk show host, and columnist for the Philadelphia Inquirer recently did a piece on this exact topic, following the murder of Officer John Pawlowski. In the column, Smerconish cites figures from the city's Repeat Offendors Unit showing that a small group of recidivists commit more than half of all the crime in Philly.

    The column can be read here:http://www.philly.com/inquirer/colum...nt_crimes.html
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    cheap shot I know, but i'm not sure anything can be done while there is a nutter in charge!

  8. #8
    Oliphaunt Baldwin's avatar
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov
    Setting up 'honey traps' to lure delinquents into exposing their behaviour at an early age, is one idea I reckon might have an effect, but do any other Domeheads want to stick their 2 cents in the pot?
    You invite the obvious question: would this have worked on you? I'm actually interested.

    When it comes to really hardcore, violent criminals, one thing they usually have in common is the absence in their childhood of an adult who gave a damn about them. It can be a mother, a father, another family member, a friend -- but somebody who cares what the kid does, gives him boundaries, and is there for the kid. Of course, having that -- even having two excellent parents in a peaceful household -- is no guarantee that somebody won't go bad, but not having it is a big push in the wrong direction.

  9. #9
    Stegodon
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov
    Let's face it, this mopping up the mess after the fact doesn't seem to be working, so how can we work towards being preventative in our approach to criminality, as opposed to simply reactionary?
    I think it's a horrible idea. It takes the Bush Doctrine and applies it to the criminal justice system. Can't see anything good coming from it. Both the lawyer and the libertarian in me are appalled.
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  10. #10
    Stegodon
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    I believe, if I read the OP correctly, they have that system - it's often called 'entrapment'. I understand the desire to prevent bad things from happening. The problem comes from being able to accurately predict human behavior sufficiently. Certainly we can look at past behavior as one indicator. And if there's multiple instances, certainly, that's a stronger case. But one of the wonderful things about humans is their capacity for growth and change.

    I also agree that in some cases, the risks of hoping for change in a particular person may be outweighed by the consequences if we're wrong - much like I"m pretty likely to go 3 - 5 miles above the speed limit on many roads (depending on weather conditions etc), since the risk of getting caught is low, the consequence of getting caught is reasonably low, vs. going 25 over the speed limit while driving drunk, where both the risks and consequences are sharply increased.

    And, I'm well acquainted w/crime stats etc, since I've worked w/criminals for more than 3 decades. I have seen both extremes - the woman I've known since 1977 who hasn't put a 365 consecutive streak of days outside of supervision since then (would always go to jail, prison, probation whatever) but have also known many from way back then who've not been part of the system again. Hard to say what clues there might be as to why.
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    Quote Originally posted by Baldwin
    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov
    Setting up 'honey traps' to lure delinquents into exposing their behaviour at an early age, is one idea I reckon might have an effect, but do any other Domeheads want to stick their 2 cents in the pot?
    You invite the obvious question: would this have worked on you? I'm actually interested.
    I was thinking more about setting up creative projects in areas known for rowdy youths, with the intention of identifying them by hidden cameras and dealing with them individually. Perhaps because the area I grew up in had a few derelict buildings to play around in, me and my mates kind of missed the casual vandalism of phone boxes phase. I did take part in a bit of graffiti-ing though, and that still appeals to a lot of rebellious types. So, a plain white wall is an easy enough 'honey trap' to set up.
    Quote Originally posted by Baldwin
    When it comes to really hardcore, violent criminals, one thing they usually have in common is the absence in their childhood of an adult who gave a damn about them. It can be a mother, a father, another family member, a friend -- but somebody who cares what the kid does, gives him boundaries, and is there for the kid. Of course, having that -- even having two excellent parents in a peaceful household -- is no guarantee that somebody won't go bad, but not having it is a big push in the wrong direction.
    This has an element of truth to it. My 'Dad' wasn't my biological father, and I didn't give him the respect he deserved when I was younger. Saying that, my Mam in a temper was something to avoid, and even that didn't keep me on the straight and narrow. A threatening by one of her brothers - who I hero worshipped at one point - had no effect on me. Maybe if I'd got a charge sheet before I was thirteen, my reckless spirit might have been cowed enough for me to have paid real attention to what was happening, instead of treating it all like a game?
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

  12. #12
    Oliphaunt Baldwin's avatar
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    Quote Originally posted by Oakminster
    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov
    Let's face it, this mopping up the mess after the fact doesn't seem to be working, so how can we work towards being preventative in our approach to criminality, as opposed to simply reactionary?
    I think it's a horrible idea. It takes the Bush Doctrine and applies it to the criminal justice system. Can't see anything good coming from it. Both the lawyer and the libertarian in me are appalled.
    Well, that seems like an awfully broad brush. I'd agree if we were talking about preemptively locking up kids who haven't committed crimes yet.

    One step I'd want to take is completely reforming school funding, to make sure that the poorest inner-city neighborhood gets schools that are as well-funded as the schools in Beverly Hills. Every US politician who runs for anything from dogcatcher up says that education is vital to our nation's future, but we haven't funded it like it's a priority.

    In Baltimore, in LA, and other US cities, there are big areas that are essentially lawless and endlessly poverty-stricken, one generation after another. Makes for entertaining shows like The Wire, but it's a terrible thing to contemplate about one's one country. Ivan, what places are like that in the UK?

  13. #13
    Stegodon
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    Quote Originally posted by Baldwin
    Well, that seems like an awfully broad brush. I'd agree if we were talking about preemptively locking up kids who haven't committed crimes yet.
    I don't like the notion that certain traits are indicative of future criminal behavior, so those traits should be suppressed. What traits are we talking about, and who gets to choose? Man is a predatory creature. An inclination towards aggression is necessary, to some extent, to succeed in sports, the military, business...and life in general. So is independent thought. Risk taking. Facing adversity. I don't want to see the human race neutered on the basis of some pop psychobabble flavor of the week. We are not sheep, and should not seek to emulate them.
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    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    Quote Originally posted by Baldwin
    Ivan, what places are like that in the UK?
    I've read and heard about places that are supposed to be "no-go zones" over here, but I think Manchester is fairly representative of a UK city, and I don't know anywhere that out of control. Obviously there are places to avoid, but my Mam, for example, is in her 60's and regularly uses public transport to make a 10 mile round trip into the city and out to one of the roughest estates in the NW, and it doesn't faze her.

    Quote Originally posted by Baldwin
    Well, that seems like an awfully broad brush. I'd agree if we were talking about preemptively locking up kids who haven't committed crimes yet.
    I'm talking about identifying wayward youths and targeting specific criminal behaviour, before it escalates into more serious law breaking.

    Quote Originally posted by Oakminster
    I don't like the notion that certain traits are indicative of future criminal behavior, so those traits should be suppressed. What traits are we talking about, and who gets to choose? Man is a predatory creature. An inclination towards aggression is necessary, to some extent, to succeed in sports, the military, business...and life in general. So is independent thought. Risk taking. Facing adversity. I don't want to see the human race neutered on the basis of some pop psychobabble flavor of the week. We are not sheep, and should not seek to emulate them.
    Do you not see how casual vandalism can lead to further disrespect of others property? Are you contesting that children who abuse animals are likely to go on to abusing humans at some point, or do you think they learn to channel it and become butchers?
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

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    Elephant
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov
    Do you not see how casual vandalism can lead to further disrespect of others property? Are you contesting that children who abuse animals are likely to go on to abusing humans at some point, or do you think they learn to channel it and become butchers?
    I certainly see how it can, but to what extent does it? I'm not being snarky here, but really how common is it for casual behavior X to lead to criminal behavior Y?
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    If casual criminal behaviour X, doesn't lead to criminal behaviour Y, how do you think a person's criminal record develops?
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

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    Stegodon
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    I think people choose their own roads in life. I could have remained in the military. I could have pursued theatre further than I did. I could just as easily have turned to crime. None of those things happened because I chose otherwise. Just because someone has the potential to make bad choices does not mean that they will.
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    Elephant
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov
    If casual criminal behaviour X, doesn't lead to criminal behaviour Y, how do you think a person's criminal record develops?
    It's not that behavior X can't lead to behavior Y, it's that for the vast majority of people, it doesn't.

    There are lots (perhaps not enough, but lots) of programs for at-risk children. Practicing surveillance and/or entrapment on entire classes of people *someone* determines to be "at risk" is unacceptable in every conceivable way.

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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    As it's been said upthread, the police already use entrapment to target specific criminals, albeit usually the ones who are already well set along their chosen criminal path. What I'm suggesting is to shift the attention to the younger generation of burgeoning criminals, and try and affect those choices you are saying we are all capable of making, a little bit earlier.
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

  20. #20
    Elephant
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    At the very bottom base, I'd say that it boils down to acceptance of personal responsibility.

    As I've said frequently in the old neighborhood;

    There are two kinds of people in this world.
    Those who, when it is pointed out that they've done something wrong, will acknowledge it, apologize and try not to do it again.
    And those who will deny it and attack the other person for daring to accuse them of something.

    I saw it in 4 years of Security work. The typical criminal scumbag never accepted responsibility for their own actions. It was always the other person's fault for being robbed, always the other person who MADE them assault them. It was the LEO (Law Enforcement Officer - whether Security or Police) who was to blame for getting them into trouble in the first place. Or the store staff for getting them into trouble by calling the police. Or they were only being arrested because the officer, manager or whoever the fuck, was a racist.

    Anything but them, anything but their own behavior.

    Give me two people, one of whom says "Yeah, I was wrong" and the other who says "It's someone else's fault", and I'll lay any money you ask on the second person being the criminal.
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  21. #21
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov
    If casual criminal behaviour X, doesn't lead to criminal behaviour Y, how do you think a person's criminal record develops?
    What I'm asking about are those for whom X doesn't lead to Y. Not everyone one who breaks bottles or flips off their teacher goes on to become a criminal, so the question is how many do? Is it 1%, 50%, 99%? Are you really ok with branding a wide swath of the population "potential criminal" when the majority of them would never have actually committed crimes?

    ETA: upon review, Diana said what I wanted to, and my quote tags are hosed for some reason.
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    Quote Originally posted by sublight
    What I'm asking about are those for whom X doesn't lead to Y. Not everyone one who breaks bottles or flips off their teacher goes on to become a criminal, so the question is how many do? Is it 1%, 50%, 99%?
    If danceswithcats link is anything to go by - and my personal experience seems to back it up - it's a very small percentage of people who are actually responsible for the majority of serious crimes.
    Quote Originally posted by sublight
    Are you really ok with branding a wide swath of the population "potential criminal" when the majority of them would never have actually committed crimes?
    Nobody is branding anyone a potential criminal; if the local council set up a flower-bed for the public to enjoy and some oiks come along and destroy all that effort, they are commiting a crime and go from being a potential, to an actual criminal.

    If these kind of incidents are to go unchecked, by the time these children have left school, their respect for boundaries is so diminished they are capable of doing anything to 'get along'.
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

  23. #23
    Oliphaunt
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    I think it's already getting to be too late when they're at the bottle-breaking and teacher-flipping-off stage. I think we should try to get at them early. Like in the womb. No, I'm not talking about eugenics, but when you have - to take an extreme example - a poor, drug-using, young, single pregnant woman, you know that child has worse odds than most to make it good in the world. Get them then. Pour resources into those kids before we lose them, not while we're already losing them.

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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    That addresses the tackling poverty and lack of education suggestions, made by Muffin and Baldwin upthread. It would certainly seem to make more sense to spend the money currently being spent waging a "War On Drugs", to invest in targetting juvenile crime instead.
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

  25. #25
    Stegodon
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov
    I strongly feel that the only way to limit crimes long term, is by catching those likely to carry them out at an early age and channeling that wayward streak into something more constructive.

    Setting up 'honey traps' to lure delinquents into exposing their behaviour at an early age, is one idea I reckon might have an effect, but do any other Domeheads want to stick their 2 cents in the pot?
    I think this makes a lot of sense, but how to do it practically raises a lot of questions.

    I indulged in a lot of criminal behavior, starting with shoplifting and drug use in my early teens and progressing to some more serious crimes as I got older. One thing that made a big difference was getting a decent paying job in my early 20s, that pretty much brought the stealing to an end, but I continued to abuse alcohol and drugs for some time after that. I think a lot of it was that I never got caught, and the honey trap idea probably would have done me a lot of good. I started shoplifting at 11 because I was hanging out with a kid from a much poorer family, and I never got caught. I never got busted with drugs, but I did get a DUI arrest (pled down to reckless driving) which really cut back on my drinking in my 20s.

    If I had been caught and punished for something in my early teens, I would have had a very different outlook, but I felt like I was smarter than everybody else and could get away with anything.

  26. #26
    Elephant
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    Quote Originally posted by Harlequin
    but when you have - to take an extreme example - a poor, drug-using, young, single pregnant woman, you know that child has worse odds than most to make it good in the world. Get them then.
    Shall I assume then that drug-using, young, single, pregnant women who DON'T happen to be poor shall go unmolested as usual?

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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    I started shoplifting even younger than you BM, being led around the city centre by an Artful Dodger type, who was several years older than me. I got a few clipped ears and had to cry my way out of a few situations, but I never got involved with the police either. Hang on, once I got took home by the police for trying to steal lead off a factory roof. I was about 10 then. I was 14 and robbing houses by the time I got my 1st charge sheet.
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    Quote Originally posted by Diana
    Quote Originally posted by Harlequin
    but when you have - to take an extreme example - a poor, drug-using, young, single pregnant woman, you know that child has worse odds than most to make it good in the world. Get them then.
    Shall I assume then that drug-using, young, single, pregnant women who DON'T happen to be poor shall go unmolested as usual?
    Firstly, I'm not talking about molestation. I'm talking about offering help. All the help there is. Secondly, that was by design an extreme example. The exact limits must be worked out, of course, or possibly left to some form of deciding organ.

  29. #29
    Elephant
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    Quote Originally posted by Harlequin
    Firstly, I'm not talking about molestation. I'm talking about offering help. All the help there is. Secondly, that was by design an extreme example. The exact limits must be worked out, of course, or possibly left to some form of deciding organ.
    What kind of help? There are already all sorts of help being offered (like I said earlier, probably not enough, but it's there is you know how to go about finding it). Given what the OP is proposing, I assumed you meant "help" that comes in the form of "supervision and correction, under threat of losing your kids". And again, I'm really, REALLY uncomfortable with classifying entire classes of people as "potential criminals" and "likely shitty parents".

    Hell, I knew a ton of kids just like ivan, and they weren't the victims of poverty or indifferent parenting. They were just little shits.

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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    There will always be little shits, but I firmly believe that we can affect the number of little shits. I do think we need to do more than offer help. We need to seek out the people who need it and tell them where it is and why they should accept it. In some cases, yes, it should be "do this or lose your kids", and it already is today.

  31. #31
    Elephant
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    Quote Originally posted by sublight
    ...my quote tags are hosed for some reason.
    You have to put quote marks (") around the username. I've taken the liberty of fixing them for you.

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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    Quote Originally posted by Harlequin
    There will always be little shits, but I firmly believe that we can affect the number of little shits. I do think we need to do more than offer help. We need to seek out the people who need it and tell them where it is and why they should accept it. In some cases, yes, it should be "do this or lose your kids", and it already is today.
    I agree with this. Why wait until someone gets caught for a serious crime, when you can try and nip it in the bud by tempting 'little shits' into commiting less serious crimes at an early age, and begin identifying their home-life problems?
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov
    I agree with this. Why wait until someone gets caught for a serious crime, when you can try and nip it in the bud by tempting 'little shits' into commiting less serious crimes at an early age, and begin identifying their home-life problems?
    No, we don't agree. I don't feel entrapment is the way to go. I may very well have fallen for temptation as a little kid if it had been put in my way, but I never became a criminal.

  34. #34
    Stegodon
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    Criminal types largely identify themselves for us by having a history of anti-social behavior dating back to their days as school children. You'll seldom find a convict who wasn't also constantly in trouble for discipline violations and truancy at school. There are exceptions, but this is overwhlemingly the case IME. Intervention has to take place early.
    As has been noted upthread, a disproportionate share of crime is committed by a relatively small number of recidivists. Dropping them into a hole and putting a flagstone over top of it, however cruel that might be would cause an immediate reduction in the crime rate.

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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    Quote Originally posted by Harlequin
    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov
    I agree with this. Why wait until someone gets caught for a serious crime, when you can try and nip it in the bud by tempting 'little shits' into commiting less serious crimes at an early age, and begin identifying their home-life problems?
    No, we don't agree. I don't feel entrapment is the way to go. I may very well have fallen for temptation as a little kid if it had been put in my way, but I never became a criminal.
    Wrecking a community garden project or slaughtering a bunch of chickens on someone's allotment isn't the sort of 'temptation' that 'normal kids' succumb to. Both 'temptations' could easily be rigged up with motion-detector cameras in order to target the more potentially dangerous individuals in an area.
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

  36. #36
    Oliphaunt
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov
    Wrecking a community garden project or slaughtering a bunch of chickens on someone's allotment isn't the sort of 'temptation' that 'normal kids' succumb to.
    I disagree. All it takes is a weak kid and the wrong role model taking charge. I'm hesitant to reveal personal details, but I did similar things to your examples and my criminal record is sparkly white.

    If we do the entrapment thing, what do you suggest we do with the children who fall for it?

  37. #37
    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    Quote Originally posted by Harlequin
    Quote Originally posted by ivan astikov
    Wrecking a community garden project or slaughtering a bunch of chickens on someone's allotment isn't the sort of 'temptation' that 'normal kids' succumb to.
    I disagree. All it takes is a weak kid and the wrong role model taking charge. I'm hesitant to reveal personal details, but I did similar things to your examples and my criminal record is sparkly white.
    One instance of a child appearing in one of these 'stings' would be noted. If the same face appears in 3 of them, would you not think it was time to pay them a visit, or would you put it down to youthful exhuberance?
    Quote Originally posted by Harlequin
    If we do the entrapment thing, what do you suggest we do with the children who fall for it?
    Introduce them to mentors, maybe? People who can relate to them in terms they understand. Find out their interests; allow them an outlet for their frustrations, anger, whatever. One thing I can definitely say about my childhood is that we had nowhere to go when we got home from school. That doesn't seem to have changed much locally.
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

  38. #38
    Elephant
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    Here's another angle, from an article in Newsweek: Provide unimpeachable evidence, and give offendors a second chance. The results indicated are hard to challenge. I'd rather have someone on the street as a contributing member to society, than in the can on my dime.
    Opportunity is missed by most people, because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. Thomas Edison

  39. #39
    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
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    Default Re: How best to determine criminal 'types'.

    A very interesting piece, danceswithcats. Thanks for posting that.
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

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