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Thread: Why isn't Germany a good place to host a message board?

  1. #1
    Stegodon
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    Default Why isn't Germany a good place to host a message board?

    Over in ADF, we see this:

    Quote Originally posted by Feirefiz
    What is the law on voluntary associations like in the UK? In Germany that would be a possible legal form for such a venture (although Germany would be a bad place to run a message board for other reasons). They are reasonably cheap and easy to run. It's a proper legal person and even the tax man would be happy.
    I didn't want to hijack that thread, so I'm asking here: Why is Germany such a bad place to run a message board?

    Also, wasn't it on a German message board that the cannibal guy found the guy who knew a Doper and cooked him? Has Germany cracked down on message boards since then, or something?
    Every dialect is a language, but not every language is a dialect. - Einar Haugen

  2. #2

    Default Re: Why isn't Germany a good place to host a message board?

    well, it seems like I just read that you cannot deny the holocaust there... not that I could understand anyone holding that view... but this article says that holocaust denial is a crime in germany.
    http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/ ... _Roundup__

    My guess is that free speech is monitored and controlled in Germany a little more that we are used to here (US citizen speaking).

  3. #3
    Elephant Feirefiz's avatar
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    Default Re: Why isn't Germany a good place to host a message board?

    I'm sorry but I don't have much time right now if you have any further questions I should be able to answer them in a few hours.

    One big issue (which came up in a thread on the other board just days ago) is that insulting people is a criminal offense. Of course in real life you know when you can get away with it but you don't want your insults in writing in a public place. This is made worse by the fact that under certain circumstances forum operators can be held liable for illegal posts. As soon as they have been notified they are required to remove those posts and prevent repeat offenses. As you can imagine the legal consequences of this are a mess, especially when the legality of a post is disputed.

    In practice these requirements are often ignored. As usual you can get away with a lot until you cause real trouble for the first time. Perhaps it is more accurate to say that it is a bad place to run a permissive message board that is legally unproblematic. In addition many boards are simply hosted abroad and pretty much anonymously.

    It's a general problem that parts of German law adapt to internet realities only slowly. Especially, large parts of the internet world have been shaped with American law in mind. This means that sometimes you have friction with German law until that is grudgingly harmonized with reality.

  4. #4
    Stegodon
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    Default Re: Why isn't Germany a good place to host a message board?

    That's interesting. I remember that the protagonist in "The Cuckoo's Nest" (or whatever that novelesque non-fiction book about the white hat UNIX hacker was) had a similar problem way back in the 80s; he traced an invader (on his system) all the way to Germany and then had a real cunt of a time trying to do anything about it, because German law on computer communications was so far behind.

    What is it about the German legal system that leaves these issues unresolved for long stretches of time? What kind of event or political or cultural change would it take to resolve this problem?

    Can you tell us more about the legality of insults? Can you tell someone they have a bad haircut? Can you tell them to go fuck themselves? Is the line somewhere in between those two?

    Thanks for all the info!
    Every dialect is a language, but not every language is a dialect. - Einar Haugen

  5. #5
    Elephant Feirefiz's avatar
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    Default Re: Why isn't Germany a good place to host a message board?

    Ok, I've decided to stay at home. I was much too late anyway.
    Quote Originally posted by Hostile Dialect
    What is it about the German legal system that leaves these issues unresolved for long stretches of time? What kind of event or political or cultural change would it take to resolve this problem?
    The really urgent issues are resolved and of course the German always works in some way. The problem lies with the gray areas where either the law in unclear or hardly anyone cares in real life. The international nature of the net means that most of these issues can be avoided by the average personal user but not by the provider who needs a more formal framework.
    Can you tell us more about the legality of insults? Can you tell someone they have a bad haircut? Can you tell them to go fuck themselves? Is the line somewhere in between those two?
    The important issue is whether it's meant to violate the recipients personal honor (yes, it's wonderfully vague.) This is not limited to specific expressions or actions. However certain well-established insults are typically considered insulting automatically. If you tell someone to fuck themselves you will have a hard time explaining how that wasn't an insult. If you tell someone they have a bad haircut then it depends on the context. You could possibly argue that you were expressing a legitimate opinion (e.g. when they asked you.)
    All this is only relevant if the addressee actually presses charges. In real life this won't happen all that often, except in professional settings, when daeling with officials or when it is part of a larger ongoing dispute. In insignificant cases the authorities can also decline to prosecute when it isn't in the public interest.

  6. #6
    Oliphaunt jali's avatar
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    Default Re: Why isn't Germany a good place to host a message board?

    This is really interesting. I knew nothing of this and didn't imagine that the laws in Germany were so different.

    See, we're stamping out ignorance here.
    They weren't singing....they were just honking.
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Why isn't Germany a good place to host a message board?

    OLG Hamburg Rules on Heise Forum Judgment
    The Landgericht Hamburg (Hamburg District Court - LG) had decided in the first instance that Heise was liable for this content, even if it had been unaware of it, and demanded that all online forums be monitored in advance of publication. The Heise publishing company had appealed against this decision.
    Court rules that prior review of forum comments is unreasonable
    Heise Zeitschriften Verlag has already lost a similar case as the operator of a forum. In the Heise Forum ruling, the first-instance district court of Hamburg insisted that the publisher monitor the content posted before it appears online. Like the judges at the appeals court in Dusseldorf, the Hamburg judges believe that the former operator is liable as an abetter according to the Supreme Court ruling. But the court in Dusseldorf also felt that it was reasonable to expect the operator of a forum to take action as soon as it discovers that a law has been violated. The Hamburg court saw things differently. It required the operator "either increase its funding or limit [...] its operations" so that every posting could be reviewed for its legal implications before being published online. The publisher has appealed this decision at the appeals court of Hamburg.
    Hamburg Court: Online Publisher is Liable for Reader Comments. Also for Comments on Blogs?
    The first-instance district court of Hamburg has issued a temporary restraining order preventing an on line publisher Heise Zeitschriften Verlag from publishing reader comments on a forum. Those comments called on others to overload a third party’s server by massively downloading a programme. In the future Heise will have to review all comments and discussion forums.
    Court upholds ruling that forum operators have unlimited liability
    Specifically, the court found that the forum operator could be found co-culpable by merely providing a platform for an inadmissible comment. In other words, the operator does not have to agree with the content or have entered the content directly. Furthermore, it does not matter whether the content came from the operator or from external parties, nor does it matter whether the forum provider has any knowledge of the contents. All that matters is that the forum operator provide its own website for the propagation of said content.
    Would you like to host a forum in a legal climate like this?

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