Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

[What Exit?]

So, that Glorfindel. How dead is he?

He should be quite alive and yes the Glorfindel of Gondolin that died killing a Balrog is the same Glorfindel of Rivendell that scared the heck out of the Witch King around 1973 Third Age.

[Rube E. Tewesday]

[quote=What Exit?]

So, that Glorfindel. How dead is he?

He should be quite alive and yes the Glorfindel of Gondolin that died killing a Balrog is the same Glorfindel of Rivendell that scared the heck out of the Witch King around 1973 Third Age. [/quote:awdb2ih0]


Well, a zombie elf would scare the heck out of me.

[What Exit?]

[quote=Rube E. Tewesday][quote="What Exit?":10ut4n8m]

So, that Glorfindel. How dead is he?

He should be quite alive and yes the Glorfindel of Gondolin that died killing a Balrog is the same Glorfindel of Rivendell that scared the heck out of the Witch King around 1973 Third Age. [/quote:10ut4n8m]

Well, a zombie elf would scare the heck out of me.[/quote:10ut4n8m]
That would be scary. Glorfindel was even more scary to the actual Undead though like the Witch King.

He was apparently given a new body in Aman by the Valar and then they eventually sent him back to help fight Sauron.
By the end of his life Tolkien leaned towards Elves were returned to a new adult body and not reborn. Earlier on he was thinking in terms of rebirth. Something similar was actually done for Lúthien & Beren.

[terrifel]

Is there a worthwhile book that focuses on the cultural and mythic sources behind Tolkien's works?

[Struan]

Is there a worthwhile book that focuses on the cultural and mythic sources behind Tolkien's works?

Tom Shippey's Author of the Century is probably what you are looking for.

[What Exit?]

Is there a worthwhile book that focuses on the cultural and mythic sources behind Tolkien's works?

Tom Shippey's Author of the Century is probably what you are looking for.

Interesting, I would recommend The Road to Middle-earth which is also by Tom Shippey. I might have to find and read Author of the Century.

[eleanorigby]

Clocks were a pre-industrial invention, btw. They were mechanical and needed to be wound (usually daily). Clocks


I always put The Shire in the time of Queen Anne in England, but Georgian works for me as well. There were plenty of clocks, then...




Did Sauron ever return (in whatever guise)?

[What Exit?]

Did Sauron ever return (in whatever guise)?

After the Ring was destroyed Tolkien stated that Sauron would never again be able to have a physical form and his spirit was powerless and dissipated.

Other Evils would challenge the world but never Sauron again though some cults were probably formed/continued that did evil in his name.

[eleanorigby]

Did Sauron ever return (in whatever guise)?

After the Ring was destroyed Tolkien stated that Sauron would never again be able to have a physical form and his spirit was powerless and dissipated.

Other Evils would challenge the world but never Sauron again though some cults were probably formed/continued that did evil in his name.

And WHAT were they (in whatever guise)? (jeesh, you ask a simple question. Some expert.....)

[What Exit?]

Did Sauron ever return (in whatever guise)?

After the Ring was destroyed Tolkien stated that Sauron would never again be able to have a physical form and his spirit was powerless and dissipated.

Other Evils would challenge the world but never Sauron again though some cults were probably formed/continued that did evil in his name.

And WHAT were they (in whatever guise)? (jeesh, you ask a simple question. Some expert.....)

What evils were done?

Well it never got past notes and a few chapters at best, but the sequel to the LotR moved us forward to the Reign of Eldarion (Aragorn & Arwen's son) and already Gondor had problems with teenagers beginning to play at be orcs and some cults to Sauron similar to those that afflicted Númenor at the end and many of the dark lands of Middle Earth.

I don't think there are any details available.

[eleanorigby]

And so the cycle begins again, eh? And this time, no elves to help things along... Any speculation on the how the Fourth Age ended?

[What Exit?]

And so the cycle begins again, eh? And this time, no elves to help things along... Any speculation on the how the Fourth Age ended?

Speculation I am good at. The fourth age was shorter than those that came before. The Dwarves dwindled and something happened to make them and the Hobbits go into hiding from men. Elves seriously disconnected from humanity and became but rumor in the millenniums to come.

I suspect that either a Ring Wraith survived or a highly school dark sorcerer like the Mouth of Sauron continue to work against the Reunited Kingdom. The was also the possibility of a Blue Wizard that had turned holy to corruption challenged the might of Gondor.

Rot and humans way ended the great beginning of the House of Telcontir. The world changed again at the end of fourth age and came to resemble the modern world.

The end of the third age was roughly 6000 years ago according to Tolkien.
We know a series of copies of the Redbook of West March somehow survived all the way to a Professor of Oxford.

What we do know:
In the short term the Elves cleaned up Mirkwood and the larger portion of those that remain of Lórien moved to the south of Mirkwood renamed Eryn Lasgalen or Greenwood.

Dale and Erebor and the Glitter Caves all prospered and eventually Durin VII (and the last) was born and they retook Moria.

[eleanorigby]

What I'd like to see is a bit of broadening into other types of personal adornment. Sure, there was that one Ring--the evil precious one. But what about that tiara? And that bracelet of doom? I hear there's a certain dwarvish brooch that could kill on command...


Let's see what old JRR could do with some costume jewelry, folks!

[Skald the Rhymer]

So, that Glorfindel. How dead is he?

When non-Feanor Noldor die, they get better. Mandos lets them out as soon as he feels they've matured. It's not commonly known, but Buffy Ann Summers was actually a distant descendant of Galadriel.

[Malacandra]

[quote=Skald the Rhymer]

So, that Glorfindel. How dead is he?

When non-Feanor Noldor die, they get better. Mandos lets them out as soon as he feels they've matured. It's not commonly known, but Buffy Ann Summers was actually a distant descendant of Galadriel.[/quote:1q8a9bhr]
I'm not sure if by "non-Feanor Noldor" you mean "Noldor other than Feanor himself" or "Noldor other than those of Feanor's party", but the latter would be more like it except that pretty much all Noldor did share in Feanor's rebellion and were at the least guilty by association of the Kinslaying. That meant the Curse of Mandos, which included among other things a permanent sentence of non-embodiment for any who were killed, even if their very victims were to plead for their forgiving.
But Glorfindel got a special pass through being seriously heroic.

Galadriel is specifically mentioned of not taking part in the Kinslaying. She knew nothing about it. She had no notion. She wasn't there. Nevertheless she shared in the Noldor's sentence and was barred from returning to Aman until the end of the Third Age, not least because of her decision to keep her hands off the Ring when it was within her reach, and indeed freely offered to her.

[Skald the Rhymer]

[quote=Malacandra]

So, that Glorfindel. How dead is he?

When non-Feanor Noldor die, they get better. Mandos lets them out as soon as he feels they've matured. It's not commonly known, but Buffy Ann Summers was actually a distant descendant of Galadriel.

I'm not sure if by "non-Feanor Noldor" you mean "Noldor other than Feanor himself" or "Noldor other than those of Feanor's party", but the latter would be more like it except that pretty much all Noldor did share in Feanor's rebellion and were at the least guilty by association of the Kinslaying. That meant the Curse of Mandos, which included among other things a permanent sentence of non-embodiment for any who were killed, even if their very victims were to plead for their forgiving.
But Glorfindel got a special pass through being seriously heroic.

Galadriel is specifically mentioned of not taking part in the Kinslaying. She knew nothing about it. She had no notion. She wasn't there. Nevertheless she shared in the Noldor's sentence and was barred from returning to Aman until the end of the Third Age, not least because of her decision to keep her hands off the Ring when it was within her reach, and indeed freely offered to her.[/quote:3q62wb7y]

Um...I thought it was pretty clear from the Buffy the Vampire Slayer joke that that post was meant mostly in jest. I mean, half the reason I replied was so that I could type "non-Feanor"; the other half was so that people could criticize me for not typing "non-Fëanor"; and the other other half was to outrage people for claiming a kinship between the houses of Summers and Finarfin.

Anyway, sorry for whooshing you. If I can find any non-enchanted Turkish delight I will send it to you via tesser.

[What Exit?]

Um...I thought it was pretty clear from the Buffy the Vampire Slayer joke that that post was meant mostly in jest. I mean, half the reason I replied was so that I could type "non-Feanor"; the other half was so that people could criticize me for not typing "non-Fëanor"; and the other other half was to outrage people for claiming a kinship between the houses of Summers and Finarfin.

Galadriel the Vampire Slayer. I think even Dracula would be short work. Dracula sneaks up on a very tall beautiful blond woman. Very shapely and young looking. She turns, blazes with a Holy Light and there is naught but ashes left?

[terrifel]

I hear there's a certain dwarvish brooch that could kill on command...

Actually, pretty much any dwarvish brooch can kill on command, if you stab someone hard enough with it.


This form of attack is known as "brooching the subject."

[eleanorigby]

I hear there's a certain dwarvish brooch that could kill on command...

Actually, pretty much any dwarvish brooch can kill on command, if you stab someone hard enough with it.


This form of attack is known as "brooching the subject."

<limps out of thread, a broken woman>

[What Exit?]

Actually, pretty much any dwarvish brooch can kill on command, if you stab someone hard enough with it.

This form of attack is known as "brooching the subject."

<limps out of thread, a broken woman>

Falvwen would roughly be Broken Woman.

[Skald the Rhymer]

[quote=What Exit?]

Um...I thought it was pretty clear from the Buffy the Vampire Slayer joke that that post was meant mostly in jest. I mean, half the reason I replied was so that I could type "non-Feanor"; the other half was so that people could criticize me for not typing "non-Fëanor"; and the other other half was to outrage people for claiming a kinship between the houses of Summers and Finarfin.

Galadriel the Vampire Slayer. I think even Dracula would be short work. Dracula sneaks up on a very tall beautiful blond woman. Very shapely and young looking. She turns, blazes with a Holy Light and there is naught but ashes left?[/quote:jehb0nkc]

I can't imagine any literary vampire doing well against any Noldo. Maybe--MAYBE--Legolas, if he were distracted by his hopeless longing for Gimli at the time. :mrgreen:

[What Exit?]

[quote=Skald the Rhymer][quote="What Exit?":1flrbxm3]

Um...I thought it was pretty clear from the Buffy the Vampire Slayer joke that that post was meant mostly in jest. I mean, half the reason I replied was so that I could type "non-Feanor"; the other half was so that people could criticize me for not typing "non-Fëanor"; and the other other half was to outrage people for claiming a kinship between the houses of Summers and Finarfin.

Galadriel the Vampire Slayer. I think even Dracula would be short work. Dracula sneaks up on a very tall beautiful blond woman. Very shapely and young looking. She turns, blazes with a Holy Light and there is naught but ashes left?[/quote:1flrbxm3]

I can't imagine any literary vampire doing well against any Noldo. Maybe--MAYBE--Legolas, if he were distracted by his hopeless longing for Gimli at the time. :mrgreen:[/quote:1flrbxm3]
First off, Legolas is Sindarin and not Noldo. If he was prepared the vampire would have the wooded stake of an elven arrow through his heart in no time but if taken by surprise I suspect Legolas would be no match for the typical very strong vampire.

Finally, Legolas did not have a thing for Gimli and Gimli pined with the doubly forbidden and bit squicky love for Galadriel.Though being a Dwarf he mostly pined for her Golden hair.

[Laughing Lagomorph]

...If he was prepared the vampire would have the wooded stake of an elven arrow through his heart in no time but if taken by surprise I suspect Legolas would be no match for the typical very strong vampire.
...

I've always thought Strider's description of the Nazgul on Weathertop was very interesting, something like "They smell at all times the blood of living things, desiring and hating it". It's always sounded very vampire-like to me. Many other aspects of the Nazgul are reminiscent of vampires (their association with death and blackness and the dread the living hold them in).

[Rube E. Tewesday]

I've always thought Strider's description of the Nazgul on Weathertop was very interesting, something like "They smell at all times the blood of living things, desiring and hating it". It's always sounded very vampire-like to me. Many other aspects of the Nazgul are reminiscent of vampires (their association with death and blackness and the dread the living hold them in).

Never thought about it, but good point. The way that they don't die, but don't grow or obtain new life is like the vampiric undead also.

[What Exit?]

I've always thought Strider's description of the Nazgul on Weathertop was very interesting, something like "They smell at all times the blood of living things, desiring and hating it". It's always sounded very vampire-like to me. Many other aspects of the Nazgul are reminiscent of vampires (their association with death and blackness and the dread the living hold them in).

Never thought about it, but good point. The way that they don't die, but don't grow or obtain new life is like the vampiric undead also.

Like but not like. They did not need living blood or any sustenance that we know of. They were both more powerful in some ways and less in others. The Nazgûl’s power was tied to their distance from either Sauron or their Rings or both though oddly not the One Ring. They could be vastly powerful sorcerers and very few vampires have ever had such ability. On the other hand many Vampires have been portrayed as being quite charming. No Nazgûl could be charming.

Another place they were similar was also both Vampires and Ring Wraiths had a fear or hesitation about running water but one they could overcome. Dogs seemed to bark at the presence of either.

[terrifel]

<limps out of thread, a broken woman>

<hangs head in shame>

No matter what the topic, I always end up hurting those around me...

[Skald the Rhymer]

[quote=What Exit?]

I can't imagine any literary vampire doing well against any Noldo. Maybe--MAYBE--Legolas, if he were distracted by his hopeless longing for Gimli at the time. :mrgreen:

First off, Legolas is Sindarin and not Noldo. If he was prepared the vampire would have the wooded stake of an elven arrow through his heart in no time but if taken by surprise I suspect Legolas would be no match for the typical very strong vampire.
[/quote:m1abpoe4]

:?:
The fact that Legolas is not Noldo is my point, amigo. Any adult Elda who had seen the light of the Two Trees is going to massacre any Buffyverse vampire. Probably any Blade vampire. Definitely any Christopher Lee vampire. Sindarin Elves such as Legolas, who had not seen the Light of the Trees, might not do as well. But, even if he were entirely ignorant of vampires prior to the encounter, I'd give good odds that Legolas would take down most vampires. He can't match them in strength, but his coordination and reflexes are, frankly, superhuman, as are his senses and prescience.

Finally, Legolas did not have a thing for Gimli and Gimli pined with the doubly forbidden and bit squicky love for Galadriel.Though being a Dwarf he mostly pined for her Golden hair.

Legolas was TOTALLY in love with Gimli, and the reverse. I used hopeless to mean "never to be lessened," not "never to be fulfilled." You'll never convince me otherwise. :twisted:

More seriously, the fact that Gimli & Legolas's love was supernal rather than sublunary doesn't mean it wasn't real and passionate. Legolas went out of his way to get Gimli to the Undying Lands. That wasn't just the cameraderie of warriors; that was love, baby.

[vison]

Um, horsefeathers. "Love" if you mean "Legolas loved Gimli". Not "love" if you mean Legolas was "in love with Gimli".

We all take what we want from LOTR, which is one of its beauties. But when I read it, and I have read it many dozens of times, I also remember what the author brought to it, and what his sensibilities were. In the first flush of fanatic fandom we spent hours and hours and days and days nattering on about these important issues. In some places, we still do!

Tolkien, himself, would have done for Gimli, or another comrade from the wars, what Legolas did. While I am in general no fan of the warrior mindset, the loyalty and love, passionate without being sexual, between men who have endured the horrors of war is still something I can admire.

I always believed and will continue to believe that Legolas had a lover back home, and in his aloof Elvish way he kept that secret. No doubt she was waiting in the Blessed Isles.

And as for Gimli, well, he was "in love" with Galadriel, and I am unanimous in that, to quote the immortal Mrs. S.

[lilacs]

Skald the Rhymer:
Legolas was TOTALLY in love with Gimli, and the reverse. I used hopeless to mean "never to be lessened," not "never to be fulfilled." You'll never convince me otherwise. :twisted:

More seriously, the fact that Gimli & Legolas's love was supernal rather than sublunary doesn't mean it wasn't real and passionate. Legolas went out of his way to get Gimli to the Undying Lands. That wasn't just the cameraderie of warriors; that was love, baby.

I won't take issue with Legolas's feelings for Gimli. However, I will say that Legolas had no pull with the Valar. Galadriel did. So, whatever Gimli felt for her, she returned it enough to get him into the Blessed Realm. Maybe she just liked dwarvish adoration.

What Exit?....I love the Galadriel/Gimli courtly love thing. It's sweet.


[sub:323sj68c]ETA: my quote tags got messed up. Tried to fix. I&#39;m a code moron. Carry on.[/sub:323sj68c]

[What Exit?]

What Exit?....I love the Galadriel/Gimli courtly love thing. It's sweet.

I did too, I was just joking a little. People tell me that I might take Middle-Earth a little too seriously. So I try to throw in a little levity every once in a while.

I also agree that is was surely Galadriel and maybe Gandalf more than Legolas that got Gimli entry. Maybe even Aüle put in a good word. It was quite rare to find a Dwarf for whom gold no longer had any power over.

[Skald the Rhymer]

I clearly am going to have to use more smileys. Or perhaps use different smileys. Or perhaps use the same smileys I am using now but more adroitly. or something.

As I wrote upthread, I wouldn't say, except as a joke, that L & G ever made the beast with two backs. I'm just saying that they had a deeper friendship than, say, Legolas & Aragorn--despite what the movie seems to imply--and that I think the word 'love" is the best descriptor for their feelings for one another.

[What Exit?]

I clearly am going to have to use more smileys. Or perhaps use different smileys. Or perhaps use the same smileys I am using now but more adroitly. or something.

As I wrote upthread, I wouldn't say, except as a joke, that L & G ever made the beast with two backs. I'm just saying that they had a deeper friendship than, say, Legolas & Aragorn--despite what the movie seems to imply--and that I think the word 'love" is the best descriptor for their feelings for one another.

I knew you were joking you irreverent person you. But it was fun to rift on what you posted. Besides I really do think Gimli was in Luv with Galadriel.

BTW: Middle Earth RPG here ?

[eleanorigby]

<limps out of thread, a broken woman>

<hangs head in shame>

No matter what the topic, I always end up hurting those around me...

Ah, that's ok. Just don't ask me to play the riddle game. Ha!



I think that not only did that love exist between Gimli and Legolas, but also between Sam and Frodo and Pippin and Merry. I cannot accept this immature snerking at male comradeship and love. They all became a band of brothers who were loyal and true to one another for their lifetimes--IMO, it says more about those who cannot wrap their heads around such a concept (and would you want anyone like that in your foxhole, eh?).

I don't mind the jokes; it's the people who insist that male friendship=homosexuality that irk me. (and that is not to say that homosexuals cannot have the same type of friendships with other gays or straights....)

[lilacs]

I clearly am going to have to use more smileys. Or perhaps use different smileys. Or perhaps use the same smileys I am using now but more adroitly. or something.

As I wrote upthread, I wouldn't say, except as a joke, that L & G ever made the beast with two backs. I'm just saying that they had a deeper friendship than, say, Legolas & Aragorn--despite what the movie seems to imply--and that I think the word 'love" is the best descriptor for their feelings for one another.

I knew you were joking. I take my Gimli/Galadriel fanfic very seriously.

What Exit?...Y'all just were talking about a topic near and dear to my heart. I had to jump in. I could see where Gandalf may have input as well as The Maker. Maybe Elrond put in a good word as well.

Question: Do we ever find out if Thranduil heads over sea?

[What Exit?]

Question: Do we ever find out if Thranduil heads over sea?

Tolkien never said, but I would guess that he would stay through at least most of the 4th age and probably found a way to extend his rule over the West Lórien Elves of Southern Greenwood.

[Skald the Rhymer]

[quote=What Exit?]

I clearly am going to have to use more smileys. Or perhaps use different smileys. Or perhaps use the same smileys I am using now but more adroitly. or something.

As I wrote upthread, I wouldn't say, except as a joke, that L & G ever made the beast with two backs. I'm just saying that they had a deeper friendship than, say, Legolas & Aragorn--despite what the movie seems to imply--and that I think the word 'love" is the best descriptor for their feelings for one another.

I knew you were joking you irreverent person you. But it was fun to rift on what you posted. Besides I really do think Gimli was in Luv with Galadriel.

BTW: Middle Earth RPG here ?[/quote:2j1awsiq]

I wouldn't call what Gimli felt for Galadriel "love" as I use the word. Theirs was an I-It relationship, not an I-Thou one.

Question: Do we ever find out if Thranduil heads over sea?

Tolkien never said, but I would guess that he would stay through at least most of the 4th age and probably found a way to extend his rule over the West Lórien Elves of Southern Greenwood.

I don't think he stayed through "most" of the Fourth Age--assuming, of course, that the Fourth Age lasted around the same length of time as the second & third--that is, about 3,000 years, give or take a few hundred years. I can't believe that after FA 1000, say, there was a single Dwarf or Elf community remaining in Middle-earth.

[What Exit?]

[quote=Skald the Rhymer]

Question: Do we ever find out if Thranduil heads over sea?

Tolkien never said, but I would guess that he would stay through at least most of the 4th age and probably found a way to extend his rule over the West Lórien Elves of Southern Greenwood.

I don't think he stayed through "most" of the Fourth Age--assuming, of course, that the Fourth Age lasted around the same length of time as the second & third--that is, about 3,000 years, give or take a few hundred years. I can't believe that after FA 1000, say, there was a single Dwarf or Elf community remaining in Middle-earth.[/quote:g1975ryj]
It is hinted at that the ages grow shorter. The Fourth Age began roughly 6000 years ago according to some notes by Tolkien. This would put the end of the Fourth Age before the heyday of the Egyptians. I very much thinks Elves, Dwarves, Orcs and even Hobbits lasted into the medieval period.

We don't know how long into the Fourth Age it took for the Dwarves to retake Khazad-Dûm, but they not only take it but hold it and get the Mithril flowing again apparently from a few hints given to us.

I see no reason for Thranduil to leave, at least not until men were seriously encroaching on his domain. He had enough magic and determination to maybe have stuck it out as the last Elf King. Anyway FA1000 is far too soon for there to be not a single Dwarf or Elf community to be remaining.


Malacandra, what do you say on this? Others?

[Skald the Rhymer]

[quote=What Exit?]

I don't think he stayed through "most" of the Fourth Age--assuming, of course, that the Fourth Age lasted around the same length of time as the second & third--that is, about 3,000 years, give or take a few hundred years. I can't believe that after FA 1000, say, there was a single Dwarf or Elf community remaining in Middle-earth.

It is hinted at that the ages grow shorter. The Fourth Age began roughly 6000 years ago according to some notes by Tolkien. This would put the end of the Fourth Age before the heyday of the Egyptians. I very much thinks Elves, Dwarves, Orcs and even Hobbits lasted into the medieval period.

We don't know how long into the Fourth Age it took for the Dwarves to retake Khazad-Dûm, but they not only take it but hold it and get the Mithril flowing again apparently from a few hints given to us.

I see no reason for Thranduil to leave, at least not until men were seriously encroaching on his domain. He had enough magic and determination to maybe have stuck it out as the last Elf King. Anyway FA1000 is far too soon for there to be not a single Dwarf or Elf community to be remaining.


Malacandra, what do you say on this? Others?[/quote:17jw3jjl]

The problem I have with your notion here, Jim, is that -- since we're in the "pretend the books* happened in the real world" mode-- we know when the CURRENT age began: with the birth of Christ. Therefore we are no earlier than the 5th age, and probably the sixth or seventh. I have some problems with the notion of Elves coexisting with Christ, which I will go into when I hav a trifle longer to think about it.

[What Exit?]

Bump time, any more questions?

[Rube E. Tewesday]

I've been reading "The Hobbit" with my kid. At the beginning of the book, when Thorin is describing Smaug's attack, it sounds like the North is practically alive with dragons. Why don't we ever hear about any more after Smaug's death?

[What Exit?]

I've been reading "The Hobbit" with my kid. At the beginning of the book, when Thorin is describing Smaug's attack, it sounds like the North is practically alive with dragons. Why don't we ever hear about any more after Smaug's death?

Damn good question and one with little answer. Everywhere else we hear of dragons has them in the past. The only later one that Tolkien wrote about was Chrysophylax in England and captured by Farmer Giles of Ham. We cannot be sure if this story takes place in the future of the Hobbit or not.

There was a reference somewhere that some of the lesser dragons survived until historic times. But Smaug was the last of the Great Dragons.

[Rube E. Tewesday]

Giants seem to disappear after "The Hobbit", too. Any insight on that?

[eleanorigby]

Do you mean trolls? Perhaps those two that Bilbo outwitted were the last of their kind.

[Rube E. Tewesday]

Do you mean trolls? Perhaps those two that Bilbo outwitted were the last of their kind.

No, there's lots of trolls in LOTR. But, in "The Hobbit", there's giants. They play games during storms, and Gandalf considers asking a decent one to block up the entrance to a goblin den. I'd forgotten about them, but there they were.

[What Exit?]

Giants seem to disappear after "The Hobbit", too. Any insight on that?

Two answers: Tolkien chose to ignore some of the more juvenile/Fairy Tale parts of the Hobbit that did not fit into Middle-Earth or the Giants were rare and reclusive and the Fellowship simple did not go near the areas they lived.

There was of course the mention of Tree-Men near the north border of the Shire as Samwise mentioned in the The Green Dragon tavern before they left the Shire. The Tree-men or Giants have been speculated to be anything from a large troll, a stray Ent or Huorn, an actual Giant or just a tall tale.
'All right,' said Sam, laughing with the rest. 'But what about these Tree-men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.'

They did reappear in Farmer Giles of Ham but as stated above, no proof of a connection between Middle Earth and the Farmer Giles tale.

[Feirefiz]

Bump time, any more questions?

Have you ever been uncomfortable with or had problems explaining the views on race that might be found in the text?

I mean, I love the books. I read everything except HOMES. You can rationalize seemingly uncomfortable parts.
It's a fictional mythology of a specific culture, told from the limited perspective of the people of the north-west of Middle-earth. If you want to accept its purported origin, then archaic views on heredity and a healthy dose of in-universe ethnocentrism only add to the verisimilitude.

Nevertheless I'm not so sure that I wouldn't gloss over a thing or two if I had to explain Middle-earth ethnology to a good friend of mine, Asian and not into fantasy.

[What Exit?]

Bump time, any more questions?

Have you ever been uncomfortable with or had problems explaining the views on race that might be found in the text?

I mean, I love the books. I read everything except HOMES. You can rationalize seemingly uncomfortable parts.
It's a fictional mythology of a specific culture, told from the limited perspective of the people of the north-west of Middle-earth. If you want to accept its purported origin, then archaic views on heredity and a healthy dose of in-universe ethnocentrism only add to the verisimilitude.

Nevertheless I'm not so sure that I wouldn't gloss over a thing or two if I had to explain Middle-earth ethnology to a good friend of mine, Asian and not into fantasy.

I find most of the views on race are perceived and not real. He really did not use any derogatory racial statements. The humans of Middle-Earth could be perceived as practically Aryan and at least European but the lands he wrote of occupied the geographical area of Europe more or less. There is but a handful of sentences that can be considered racist from what I recall and reading them in place they are not.

Did you have any lines specifically in mind?

It is worth finding his letter to one of the Nazi's about the Hobbit. It was quite scathing and this was before the war I believe. I'll try to track it down if you like.

[Feirefiz]

I find most of the views on race are perceived and not real. He really did not use any derogatory racial statements. The humans of Middle-Earth could be perceived as practically Aryan and at least European but the lands he wrote of occupied the geographical area of Europe more or less. There is but a handful of sentences that can be considered racist from what I recall and reading them in place they are not.

Did you have any lines specifically in mind?

It is worth finding his letter to one of the Nazi's about the Hobbit. It was quite scathing and this was before the war I believe. I'll try to track it down if you like.

I know that one. I'm not arguing that Tolkien was an actual racist. If you buy into the fictional history of the books it becomes a non-issue because all objectionable parts are in-universe. What I mean is that some people might hold the author responsible for the narrator's (or even characters') views.

Potentially problematic parts include for example:

• A hierarchy of men with a strong biological component[/*:m:2xs672p7]
• Racial purity as a positive and beneficial characteristic[/*:m:2xs672p7]
• Correlation between race and alignment[/*:m:2xs672p7]
• Although Eldacar is the good guy in the kin-strife, Gondor's decline is still tied to miscegenation[/*:m:2xs672p7]

Again, I'm not really arguing against the books. What I wanted to know is whether you consider any of these issues potentially problematic and what your position on them is.

[eleanorigby]

Where were the trolls in LOTR?

You all are going to make me read them again, aren't you? I don't want to reread them. I just did that last year and recall no trolls in LOTR.

(or did Gimli call them by yet another name? she asked, snidely)

[Rube E. Tewesday]

Where were the trolls in LOTR?

You all are going to make me read them again, aren't you? I don't want to reread them. I just did that last year and recall no trolls in LOTR.

(or did Gimli call them by yet another name? she asked, snidely)

They didn't have names like in "The Hobbit", or cool talking purses, but they were fighting against Minas Tirith, especially when it came to swingin' Grond. Pippin stabs one, who promptly falls down dead on top of him, almost leading to Pippin's death.

Funny the things that come back to you.