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Thread: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

  1. #101
    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    Quote Originally posted by Feirefiz
    Quote Originally posted by What Exit?
    I find most of the views on race are perceived and not real. He really did not use any derogatory racial statements. The humans of Middle-Earth could be perceived as practically Aryan and at least European but the lands he wrote of occupied the geographical area of Europe more or less. There is but a handful of sentences that can be considered racist from what I recall and reading them in place they are not.

    Did you have any lines specifically in mind?

    It is worth finding his letter to one of the Nazi's about the Hobbit. It was quite scathing and this was before the war I believe. I'll try to track it down if you like.
    I know that one. I'm not arguing that Tolkien was an actual racist. If you buy into the fictional history of the books it becomes a non-issue because all objectionable parts are in-universe. What I mean is that some people might hold the author responsible for the narrator's (or even characters') views.

    Potentially problematic parts include for example:
    • A hierarchy of men with a strong biological component[/*:m:1xx3v8rn]
    • Racial purity as a positive and beneficial characteristic[/*:m:1xx3v8rn]
    • Correlation between race and alignment[/*:m:1xx3v8rn]
    • Although Eldacar is the good guy in the kin-strife, Gondor's decline is still tied to miscegenation[/*:m:1xx3v8rn]

    Again, I'm not really arguing against the books. What I wanted to know is whether you consider any of these issues potentially problematic and what your position on them is.
    A hierarchy of men with a strong biological component: Ah, good point, there was a lot of that from Bard in the Hobbit to the Dúnedain. The difference here is that for the purposes of the book Bard's ability to understand Thrush was an inherited trait and the Dúnedain were descended from men actually blessed by Erü. The one true King is such a major part of legends and lore that I must forgive Tolkien this one. Else I must lodge the same complaint against King Arthur.

    Racial purity & miscegenation: To counter some of this the greatest heroes were often the Half Elves.
    Race and Alignment. Is this Orcs = Evil and Dwarfs and Elves and Hobbits mainly good but Men are all over the place? I guess I never really bought. No shortage of Numenoreans had turned to evil. The black part was not skin color but simply meaning evil.

    Quote Originally posted by eleanorigby
    Where were the trolls in LOTR?

    You all are going to make me read them again, aren't you? I don't want to reread them. I just did that last year and recall no trolls in LOTR.

    (or did Gimli call them by yet another name? she asked, snidely)
    There was also a notable troll's foot in Moria that Frodo stabbed with Sting at the Chamber of Mazarbul. In the movie Jackson had the Troll attack Frodo instead. I rather disliked that change.

  2. #102
    Mammuthus primigenius eleanorigby's avatar
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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    Oops. I forgot about the cave troll (movie). Carry on.

  3. #103
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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    Quote Originally posted by What Exit?

    There was also a notable troll's foot in Moria that Frodo stabbed with Sting at the Chamber of Mazarbul. In the movie Jackson had the Troll attack Frodo instead. I rather disliked that change.
    Trolls also put stone slabs over the flaming floor fissure (say that three times fast!) in Moria so the Orcs can cross over it.

  4. #104
    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    I am trying to lure Qadgop the Mercotan into this thread for some help with 3 of the questions. He is the master of our order. :wink:

  5. #105
    Sophmoric Existentialist
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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    The Cave Troll in the movie - that ALONE - ensures PJ a place in Hell.
    Sophmoric Existentialist

  6. #106
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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    Quote Originally posted by vison
    The Cave Troll in the movie - that ALONE - ensures PJ a place in Hell.
    Oh absolutely. I, for one, was only goaded into seeing the movie by assurances that a Cave Troll would not appear. I don't know how many times I said, "There had better not be any Cave Troll in this movie." Literally hundreds of people from all walks of life promised me that there surely would be no Cave Troll. Then I went to see the movie, and BAM! Cave Troll.

    "What the hell?!" I cried out. "God damn you Peter Jackson! Damn you to the uttermost depths of frozen Cocytus, motherfucker! Why the hell is there a Cave Troll in this movie? I paid good money to see a legitimate adaptation of J.R.R. Tolkien, not to watch a goddamned Cave Troll! Oh why must my eyes be forever soiled by the vision of a filthy Cave Troll?!" I keened, rending my garments asunder in berserk fury and hewing down those about me, like as to stalks of wheat before the thresher.

    God, it pisses me off even now. Say what you will about Bakshi's version, but at least he didn't force everyone to watch a Cave Troll. What the hell is the point of even attempting to adapt Tolkien, if you're just going to shoehorn in a completely unrelated Cave Troll?

    Are you happy, Jackson? Are you glad that we all got to look at your stinking Cave Troll?

    I swore that day never to look at another Cave Troll for as long as I lived.

  7. #107
    Mammuthus primigenius eleanorigby's avatar
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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    Ooh.... methinks someone's title should be Cave Troll...


    It's a movie, folks. Some of it good, some of it bad. PJ seems to like monsters (as he himself says in an interview). I will never see King Kong because no likee monsters, but the cave troll did provide some cinematic drama. When I think of how bad the films could have been (and they could have been truly heinous), I am glad they are as good as they are. I don't agree with some of their decisions (and whatsherface, the third scriptwriter who is NOT Fran should probably be tortured by orcs), but they are what they are. Make peace with the film trilogy, for your own sake, mmkay?

  8. #108
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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    Quote Originally posted by eleanorigby
    Ooh.... methinks someone's title should be Cave Troll...


    It's a movie, folks. Some of it good, some of it bad. PJ seems to like monsters (as he himself says in an interview). I will never see King Kong because no likee monsters, but the cave troll did provide some cinematic drama. When I think of how bad the films could have been (and they could have been truly heinous), I am glad they are as good as they are. I don't agree with some of their decisions (and whatsherface, the third scriptwriter who is NOT Fran should probably be tortured by orcs), but they are what they are. Make peace with the film trilogy, for your own sake, mmkay?
    Cinematic drama? Cinematic DRAMA?? *foams at the mouth*

    Yeah, I know I go over the top a tad - thank you ever so much, terrifel, you made me laff and laff! - but if there is anything that Cave Troll doesn't represent, it's "cinematic drama".

    Was there, in fact, a cliche of movie making that PJ did not use? Even one? I have to stop and think - I guess there was no puppy. That's about it. No puppies were run over/stabbed/kicked/burned alive/threatened/cuddled/or otherwise interacted with by a character in LOTR's 3 films.

    PJ got so much so very right. And that's what makes the crap so hard to take.

    *foams at the mouth, just thinking of the Scrubbing Bubbles of Erech*
    Sophmoric Existentialist

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    Mammuthus primigenius eleanorigby's avatar
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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    The scrubbing bubbles? :dub:

    It's ok. It's gonna be all right. Here, drink this....



    I agree that some of it is hokey--Aragorn and Arwen's lines (for the most part) are pure pork. But you don't have to watch the films; you can read the books.


    I'm not fond of the cave troll (although it gave Bean a great line--very well delivered, too), but when I watch the films, I tend to skip the battle scenes anyway. I've made it into MY movie--the way I want it (except for the no sex part, but I digress).

    What were we talking about, again? :smile:

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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    Quote Originally posted by eleanorigby
    The scrubbing bubbles? :dub:
    ...
    I'm not fond of the cave troll (although it gave Bean a great line--very well delivered, too), but when I watch the films, I tend to skip the battle scenes anyway. I've made it into MY movie--the way I want it (except for the no sex part, but I digress). ...
    I have a weird relation to the movies. I recognize that Jackson gave us the benchmark that all Fantasy Movies need to be measured against. He got the breadth and look of Middle-Earth incredibly right. There are scenes he shows which are straight out of my brain and that almost never happens. The Shire and Argonath scenes come to mind sharply. The beacon scene took my breath away. On the other hand I am such a fanatic that many of the little changes annoyed me and the big changes were painful. I did love the "They've got a Cave Troll" line but I hated the look of the Cave Troll. Besides there was no cave troll in the chamber dammit! Just his foul scaly foot briefly. The Arwen stuff added nothing and cost us Glorfindel. I shall never forgive Jackson for this. Part of the problem is that Miss Tyler is a very poor actress as was the dud they picked for Elrond.

  11. #111
    Elephant terrifel's avatar
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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    Quote Originally posted by vison
    Yeah, I know I go over the top a tad - thank you ever so much, terrifel, you made me laff and laff!
    It was my pleasure I assure you. I am always happy to lend my support in such matters.

    *stands on lone hilltop above the blasted heath, raises clenched fists as face twists in rage, and screams to the unforgiving heavens*

    CAAAVE TROOOLLL!!!







    DISTANT ECHO, HIGH ABOVE PLANET SURFACE: *CAAAVE TROOOLLL*

  12. #112
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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    terrifel's post reminds me that one of the reasons movies such as Plan 9 from Outer Space and Manos: The Hands of Fate are rightly regarded as the cinematic classics they are is the complete lack of Cave Trolls in either.

    I agree Liv Tyler isn't a great actress but I think if they hadn't given her Glorfindel's part at the Fords the character would have been practically invisible. Non-fans would have been wondering who this chick was when she married Aragorn. I also think Hugo Weaving was an odd choice for Elrond but my main problem with movie Elrond is more at the level of the script and the director's decisions about how the character would be portrayed than the way the actor carried out the performance.

    My question: how should I pronounce 'Aule'? How many syllables, where is the accent?

  13. #113
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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    Quote Originally posted by Laughing Lagomorph
    terrifel's post reminds me that one of the reasons movies such as Plan 9 from Outer Space and Manos: The Hands of Fate are rightly regarded as the cinematic classics they are is the complete lack of Cave Trolls in either.
    I thought Tor Johnson was supposed to be a Cave Troll in plan 9. What was he then?

    :wink:

    My question: how should I pronounce 'Aule'? How many syllables, where is the accent?
    Two syllables. ow'leh roughly Owl-lay but the Owl is almost a long O.

  14. #114
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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    Quote Originally posted by Laughing Lagomorph
    terrifel's post reminds me that one of the reasons movies such as Plan 9 from Outer Space and Manos: The Hands of Fate are rightly regarded as the cinematic classics they are is the complete lack of Cave Trolls in either.

    I agree Liv Tyler isn't a great actress but I think if they hadn't given her Glorfindel's part at the Fords the character would have been practically invisible. Non-fans would have been wondering who this chick was when she married Aragorn. I also think Hugo Weaving was an odd choice for Elrond but my main problem with movie Elrond is more at the level of the script and the director's decisions about how the character would be portrayed than the way the actor carried out the performance.

    My question: how should I pronounce 'Aule'? How many syllables, where is the accent?
    I never saw Hugo Weaving before I saw LOTR, so I had no notion of him. I thought he was fine, as an actor. But the character!!!! My god, where did the noble and lordly Elrond Halfelven go? What we got was a snotty suburban dad who was cheezed off at his daughter for hanging out with a lowlife biker. And the scene where he pulls Arwen out from behind the curtain and hands her off to Aragorn? I nearly tossed the old cookies, right then. That idiotic smarmy smile just drove me mad. Mad, I tell you. Mad, mad, mad, mad, mad. And, really annoyed, too.

    OTOH, I thought the bit at the coronation where Aragorn sang in the shower of petals was lovely. One of the few moments in the movies where the "tone" was right out of the books. Gave me goose bumps, just like the very first bit of the first movie, when Cate Blanchett was speaking about "change is in the air, the earth . . ." etc.

    If only Viggo Mortenson didn't have that nasal, whiny voice. Ew. And if only Sean Bean had gone halfway to New Zealand.
    Sophmoric Existentialist

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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    Me I couldn't stand the "alternative endings" format... but wait! There's MORE! And no Scouring. But overall, I like the movies. I have no ire re Elrond or the actor who played him--I've never seen the Matrix. Tyler was too lightweight to carry her role, but then we have such a good Eowyn....

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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    Éowyn really was quite good. I don't think they could have casted her much better though she seemed just a little old to me when I saw the movie. I wish they had just decided to expand her role or tell of Arwen in a series of flashback and not actually give Liv Tyler a real role.

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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    Quote Originally posted by What Exit?
    Éowyn really was quite good. I don't think they could have casted her much better though she seemed just a little old to me when I saw the movie. I wish they had just decided to expand her role or tell of Arwen in a series of flashback and not actually give Liv Tyler a real role.
    Yeah, Eowyn is supposed to be what? 20-21? I was amazed when I found out Miranda Otto was 35 when TTT came out, she sure didn't look it in the movies.

    Of course I was partially blinded by her near-incandescent hotness.

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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    Quote Originally posted by vison
    My god, where did the noble and lordly Elrond Halfelven go? What we got was a snotty suburban dad who was cheezed off at his daughter for hanging out with a lowlife biker.
    I feel obliged to defend Elrond here. Remember, by choosing to be with Aragorn, Arwen chooses to be of the race of men--which is to say, to DIE, in what doubtless seems to Elrond to be an extremely brief time. Elrond is nearly seven thousand years old; the hundred seventy years or so before Arwen and Aragorn are married must seem, to him, like a month or two. Moreover, she dies not long after Aragorn, and as her spirit is sundered from his until the end of the world. I can easily see how a father would think that a horrible idea.
    "Fairy tales do not give the child his first idea of bogey. The baby has known the dragon intimately ever since he had an imagination. What the fairy tale provides for him is a St. George to kill the dragon." (Chesterton)

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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    Quote Originally posted by Laughing Lagomorph
    Yeah, Eowyn is supposed to be what? 20-21? I was amazed when I found out Miranda Otto was 35 when TTT came out, she sure didn't look it in the movies.
    ...
    That is about right: Éowyn was born 2995 of TA so she was 23-24 at the time of the War.

    Miranda Otto was born 16 December 1967 so she was 33-35 for the filming of the two she was in. She was very pretty and looked younger and her acting was excellent as was her sword play. I just thought she was a little older than I had pictured Éowyn. It was not a huge thing and not one that bothered me.

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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    Quote Originally posted by What Exit?
    ...

    Miranda Otto was born 16 December 1967 so she was 33-35 for the filming of the two she was in. She was very pretty and looked younger and her acting was excellent as was her sword play. I just thought she was a little older than I had pictured Éowyn. It was not a huge thing and not one that bothered me.

    Plus there was the hotness. Don't forget the hotness.

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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    [align=right:2oqxpvf6]bump[/align:2oqxpvf6]

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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    Quote Originally posted by What Exit?
    [align=right:2r7s1re9]bump[/align:2r7s1re9]
    I get it...this is one of those posts you need to read by the light of a full moon in order to see the runes, er, letters...

  23. #123
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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    [quote=Laughing Lagomorph]
    Quote Originally posted by "What Exit?":7qvmw0d6
    [align=right:7qvmw0d6]bump[/align:7qvmw0d6]
    I get it...this is one of those posts you need to read by the light of a full moon in order to see the runes, er, letters...[/quote:7qvmw0d6]
    Moon Letters, exactly.

  24. #124
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    Default Is Gandalf the White a wizard?

    I mean, how constrained is he?

    For example the wizards were not only limited by their policy against overly direct displays of power but also by the nature of their incarnation.
    Quote Originally posted by Unfinished Tales, The Istari
    For with the consent of Eru [the Valar] sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and ages only by the cares and labors of many long years.
    Now compare that to the words of Gandalf the White after disclosing his identity to the companions who had just tried to attack him.
    Quote Originally posted by The Two Towers, III.5
    No blame to you, and no harm done to me. Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me.
    (Let's not forget that those weapons include Anduril which has a certain record of having ruined a Maia's day.)

    Is Gandalf telling the truth? That's a very strong statement considering that in principle it seems possible to disembody a Maia by force. On the other hand I don't recall any instance of a Maia suffering significant harm who wasn't either an unenhanced wizard or to some degree diminished by expending their power on evil domination.

    Is it simply hyperbole? I.e. in theory they could have slain him but confident in his newly enhanced badassness he considered it excedingly unlikely.

    Is his (second) incarnation permanent?
    Is he stuck with his humanoid body forever?
    Will he eventually die again and for good in the West?

  25. #125
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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    Quote Originally posted by eleanorigby
    What I'd like to see is a bit of broadening into other types of personal adornment. Sure, there was that one Ring--the evil precious one. But what about that tiara? And that bracelet of doom? I hear there's a certain dwarvish brooch that could kill on command...


    Let's see what old JRR could do with some costume jewelry, folks!
    I want to see The Lord Of The Umbrella Stand!
    To sleep, perchance to experience amygdalocortical activation and prefrontal deactivation.

  26. #126
    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Default Re: Is Gandalf the White a wizard?

    [quote=Feirefiz]I mean, how constrained is he?

    For example the wizards were not only limited by their policy against overly direct displays of power but also by the nature of their incarnation.
    Quote Originally posted by Unfinished Tales, The Istari
    For with the consent of Eru [the Valar] sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and ages only by the cares and labors of many long years.
    Now compare that to the words of Gandalf the White after disclosing his identity to the companions who had just tried to attack him.
    Quote Originally posted by "The Two Towers, III.5":1cr1m3wh
    No blame to you, and no harm done to me. Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me.
    (Let's not forget that those weapons include Anduril which has a certain record of having ruined a Maia's day.)

    Is Gandalf telling the truth? That's a very strong statement considering that in principle it seems possible to disembody a Maia by force. On the other hand I don't recall any instance of a Maia suffering significant harm who wasn't either an unenhanced wizard or to some degree diminished by expending their power on evil domination.

    Is it simply hyperbole? I.e. in theory they could have slain him but confident in his newly enhanced badassness he considered it excedingly unlikely.

    Is his (second) incarnation permanent?
    Is he stuck with his humanoid body forever?
    Will he eventually die again and for good in the West?[/quote:1cr1m3wh]
    My interpretation of this is as follows:

    Gandalf the White was largely unfettered compared to Gandalf the Grey. He was sent back to finish his job not by Manwë but by Eru himself is what is hinted at. He was much closer to Olórin as Gandalf the White. He was free to use his powers much more openly. He was no longer tied to his ‘frail seeming’ human body on his return. The odds are that his wounds would not bleed and he would not die from either Anduril or the Nazgul's foul blades. Saruman could no longer stand against him; indeed, Saruman was clearly stronger than the Grey but clearly inferior to the White. Sauron and Sauron alone probably was all Gandalf the White really had to fear. The Witch King was foolish and arrogant thinking he could hurt Gandalf at the Gates of Minas Tirith. If he did not race off to stop Rohan and die by his arrogance there, Gandalf would have surely discorporated the Witch King yet again. Of course with Mordor so close that would have only removed the Witch King from the battle. He would have been back shortly is my understanding.

    Gandalf was free to return to his spirit form once he returned to the West. He could once again walk invisibly among the Gardens of Lorien. He would not die as he is still a Maia. As Gandalf the White he was as much a Maia as a Wizard.

  27. #127
    Elephant terrifel's avatar
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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    Gandalf's claim that "none of you have any weapon that could hurt me" should also be understood in light of his unfortunate PCP addiction.

    First synthesized by Aulë as an anaesthetic agent to ease the trauma associated with death and resurrection of a Maia's mortal shell, PCP ("Valar dust" or "embalming fluid" on the street) is a potent psychoactive which became popular as a recreational drug early in the Second Age. Users frequently experience intensely debilitating side-effects, which may include hallucinations, euphoria, numbness, delusions of invulnerability, and irrational behavior such as concealing one's identity from well-known acquaintances for no obvious reason.

    Even Morgoth eventually took steps to curb use of the drug among his minions, after several of his Balrogs fell to their deaths while under the delusion that they could fly.

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    Default Re: Ask the Tolkien Fanatic: First official Thread about Tolkien

    I'll never forgive PJ for adding the scene where Gandalf was bested by the Witch King (granted, it's only in the Extend Edition, but he turned up without his staff). And you can't knock down the walls of Minas Tirth. I know..a siege scene without crumbling stone walls is boring right? *grumble*

    Anyway, my questions:

    1) Who are/were are the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves, and what happened to the non-Durin dwarves?

    2) Is there any account why Legolas' kin uses a different types of bow from the Lorien elves?

    3) What are the changes between the original Hobbit to the revised Hobbit? I read an old copy once about 12 years ago, and I'm not sure now if I am reading the first, pre-LOTR Hobbit

    4) After the fall of Sauron, could the same ring lore taught by him to create non-Sauron-influenced rings of power?

    5) Is Gondor a fiefdom? I am recalling the chapter where reinforcements come to Minas Tirith from all various parts of Gondor and they were grumbling is there are too few reinforcements. It seems that each province has the right to decide how many to send.

    6) Where is the administrative capital of Gondor anyway? Did Tolkien ever address the fact that Gondor's capital (I assume that where it is, since the Steward is there) is at the edge of its border, close to enemy's ground?

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