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Thread: Evolution

  1. #1
    Mi parolas esperanton malbone Trojan Man's avatar
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    Default Evolution

    I've been doing a bit of research on evolution, and confused myself, as I seem to do any time I try to understand something. So, what do you think about evolution?

  2. #2
    Oliphaunt Rube E. Tewesday's avatar
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    Not sure I understand the question....

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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    There's a lot I think about evolution, so you might need to narrow it down a tad. It describes how species change over time and can be seen on the micro level on a day to day basis. The mistake people often make is thinking that there's a difference between microevolution and macroevolution. There isn't. Tiny changes over thousands of generations turn into big changes when viewed from a distance of time.
    So now they are just dirt-covered English people in fur pelts with credit cards.

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    Administrator CatInASuit's avatar
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    Evolution - the best fit creature for a situation is more likely to survive and pass its genetics on.

    Humans are currently a bit of an exception to the rule.
    In the land of the blind, the one-arm man is king.

  5. #5
    Elephant Ramses's avatar
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    I uh... hold stock in it?

    Evolution is the change over time through successive generations in the allele frequency of the gene pool of a population of an organism, due to such processes as mutation, natural selection and genetic drift.

    An important mistake people make is getting to think that genetic variation occurs in response to stimulus somehow; it doesn't. Evolution can only act on variation already existing in the population.

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    Elephant Ramses's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by CatInASuit View post
    Evolution - the best fit creature for a situation is more likely to survive and pass its genetics on.

    Humans are currently a bit of an exception to the rule.
    One: That's not evolution, that's the definition of Natural Selection. And while they're inextricably linked, they're not the same.
    Two: Even based on natural selection, that's not empirically true at all, there's definite shows of continued genetic variation - the fact that natural selection is not acting upon the culture to weed people out as well is just showing us that we are likely to survive most any given situation. We are a best-fit-creature due to our adaptability as a species in this way.

    I mean, there's still fun notes; like women with narrow hips who couldn't usually give birth without serious threats to life are proliferating now - one, we have a lot of medical means to make the birth easier and failing it can do c-sections, which allows women who would not normally pass on many alleles to the next generation to do that if she really wants to.

    Or that due to the ability to perform dental surgery, more people with narrower faces are living to reproductive age to pass on their alleles because they won't die due to the infection from compacting their wisdom teeth. This also leads to people who randomly don't have wisdom teeth, even. Wisdom teeth are definitely a bone of contention in the evolution of man.

    Situations that definitely might be acted upon by "nature".

    Except that nature is acting upon them; and functionally medical intervention IS part of the nature acting upon us, and says, "It's cool, man."

    And it is.

  7. #7
    Mi parolas esperanton malbone Trojan Man's avatar
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    OK. I haven't delved all that deeply into evolution, because certain bits of it made nosense at all (to me), and I didn't see what's so important about trying to figure out "THE BEGINNING" etc. And the few evolutionists I've had exposure to have beat the evolution drum the way Christians beat the God drum; ie, I don't feel the need to be disrespectful to either, but it just looks like a skirmish between Evolution vs. God. I'm not going take up a belief system simply because it fills a few gaps, and gives me a posse. As yet, neither really strike me as all that convincing. Hence this thread.

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    A Groupie Marsilia's avatar
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    Actually, there are plenty of Christians who believe in evolution, as nothing about it as an explanation actually negates the existence of God.
    So, I'll whisper in the dark, hoping you'll hear me.

  9. #9
    Mi parolas esperanton malbone Trojan Man's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Marsilia View post
    Actually, there are plenty of Christians who believe in evolution, as nothing about it as an explanation actually negates the existence of God.
    I can't (and wish to) talk for every person on the planet, nor examine every exception to everything. I'm not approaching this as a debate, where people win or lose, I'm simply asking about a very complex thing I don't understand very well.

  10. #10
    A Dude Peeta Mellark's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by spitz View post
    OK. I haven't delved all that deeply into evolution, because certain bits of it made nosense at all (to me), and I didn't see what's so important about trying to figure out "THE BEGINNING" etc. And the few evolutionists I've had exposure to have beat the evolution drum the way Christians beat the God drum; ie, I don't feel the need to be disrespectful to either, but it just looks like a skirmish between Evolution vs. God. I'm not going take up a belief system simply because it fills a few gaps, and gives me a posse. As yet, neither really strike me as all that convincing. Hence this thread.
    It's not God vs. Evolution. I'm a Christian and taking a class on evolution right now--a class I learned many fascinating things in--and my university, which is in a very religous part of the US, does not promote creationism in their science department.

    Evolution does not speak to the beginning of life, FYI. "The beginning" is an entirely different subject. So skipping that (because it really isn't germaine), what questions do you have about evolution? I'd be more than happy to answer any or point you in the direction of more information.

  11. #11
    A Groupie Marsilia's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by spitz View post
    And the few evolutionists I've had exposure to have beat the evolution drum the way Christians beat the God drum; ie, I don't feel the need to be disrespectful to either, but it just looks like a skirmish between Evolution vs. God.
    Bolding mine. I was simply trying to clear up a misconception you seemed to be working under, that there was some line between religious faith (you mention Christianity specifically) and a belief in evolution. That just isn't the case for a significant number of people--enough people that...

    Quote Originally posted by spitz View post
    I can't (and wish to) talk for every person on the planet, nor examine every exception to everything. I'm not approaching this as a debate, where people win or lose, I'm simply asking about a very complex thing I don't understand very well.
    is a rather odd way to respond to my post.
    Last edited by Marsilia; 24 Apr 2011 at 10:22 PM. Reason: skipping whole phrases
    So, I'll whisper in the dark, hoping you'll hear me.

  12. #12
    A Dude Peeta Mellark's avatar
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    I pulled together a quick primer since I haven't seen a specific question to answer here.

    Biological evolution is descent with modification. This encompasses small-scale evolution (changes in gene frequency in a population from one generation to the next) and large-scale evolution (the descent of different species from a common ancestor over many generations).

    Things that influence biological evolution might be gene drift, mutation, population isolation, and the old standby of natural selection.

    Imagine if you will two islands next to one another in the Pacific. The eastern island has predatory birds on it, little ground cover, and lots of rocks with small spaces to hide beneath them. The western island has lush undergrowth, few predators, and a large insect population. Now imagine that there are two essentially identical lizards floating along on coconuts, each carrying fertilized eggs. Lizard A lands on the eastern island. Lizard B lands on the western island.

    Each lizard lays eight eggs, however on the eastern island the young lizards will be subject to predation. Since they are small when they hatch, they can hide under the rocks and find insects there to eat, but as they grow older and larger the biggest ones will be at a disadvantage and get picked off by the birds. Only the smaller lizards survive to reproduce the next generation.

    On the western island, there is no predation. All of the lizards survive to adulthood and grow large and healthy on the many insects. When it comes time to mate, the male lizards that are the largest are able to fight and win their smaller brothers and succeed in passing on their genes to the next generation.

    In the second generation born on the eastern island, they are all the offspring of the smallest lizards. Again, they're in danger from the birds and must hide. Of the sixteen lizards born in this generation, the ten smallest, fastest lizards survive, as they are best able to hide. The genes for a small lizard are passed on to the next generation.

    In the second generation born on the western island, they are all the offspring of the largest, most aggressive male lizards. They grow and fight among one another and those best suited for winning these fights are able to mate, as well as gain access to the best feeding grounds. The genes for a large, aggressive lizard are passed on to the next generation.

    In the third generation born on the eastern island, a mutation occurs. One of the lizards is roughly the same size as the others, but is also a different color. Slightly more grayish than the others, this lizard is slightly less visible against the rocks. The larger, darker lizards get eaten, while the smaller, paler lizard remains safe. The paler lizard has many offspring, having fewer competitors for mating.

    In the third generation born on the western island, a similar mutation occurs. One of the lizards is roughly the same size as the others, but is slightly more bluish. This gives him no advantage and when it comes time to mate he does so, but is only one among many males mating.

    Ten generations down the line, the eastern island is populated by very small lizards that are grayish, while the western island has large, aggressive lizards that may be blue or green. Nothing unusual or magical has occured. The lizards which had offspring passed on their genes. Over time the two populations look less and less alike because they are isolated from one another. The western island gave no advantages to blue skin, so that those with blue skin did not outbreed those with green.

    If the two populations of lizards remained isolated for thousands or millions of years, they might eventually look as though they're hardly related at all. The western lizards could become humongous, fearsome predators, while the eastern lizards are nondescript, rock-colored blurs of motion scurrying to hide in holes. Give it enough time and enough small changes to their DNA and they might eventually be incapable of interbreeding if they're introduced, separating into two new species. This is how speciation occurs.

  13. #13
    Mi parolas esperanton malbone Trojan Man's avatar
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    I know Christianity and evolution can and do overlap with some people, and that's great. I was explaining the reasons for not investigating evolution further, when I was younger. I am not interested in creating schisms etc, I was not making this BIG IMPORTANT STATEMENT!!! that evolutionists are necessarily non-theist.

    Peeta, thanks for your offer. Once I research the subject further, I shall have more streamlined questions for you.
    Last edited by Trojan Man; 24 Apr 2011 at 11:32 PM. Reason: missed 2 words

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    Member Elendil's Heir's avatar
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    I'm a Christian who knows of no better theory to explain how the natural world has developed to its current state.

  15. #15
    Jesus F'ing Christ Glazer's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Lazarus Long
    A zygote is a gamete’s way of producing more gamete’s. This may be the purpose of the universe.
    Evolution is an example of a phenomenon that scientist are just starting to define. Emergence works at odds to entropy wile not violating it. Evolution like emergence is a system of interacting agents which increase the overall complexity of the system. And results in features that could not be predicted prior to their emergence. If entropy acted alone without any countering effect the universe would be a thin spread of hydrogen.
    Welcome to Mellophant.

    We started with nothing and we still have most of it left.

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