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Thread: Well that's the end of the book publishing industry.

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    Oliphaunt The Original An Gadaí's avatar
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    Default Well that's the end of the book publishing industry.


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    Oliphaunt
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    Books are not fucked. I love my e-reader, but they all have limitations. Not everyone can afford an expensive piece of electronics - library books are still free.

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    my god, he's full of stars... OneCentStamp's avatar
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    Books aren't toast *yet*, but they can't be far behind print newspapers in that regard, and print newspapers are going to be extinct in the developed world within 5-10 years.

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    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    Yeah, I think there will always be a place for books. I have bought books since I got my nook, and I don't anticipate that this will change.

    Change happens, though, can't avoid it. My husband and I were talking about this last night while watching one of those home-buying shows. The couple on the show were looking at a new house that had one of those big niches for the TV, built in next to the fireplace. I was laughing that someday maybe those niches will be quaint, like when you go to an old house now and it has one of those little telephone shelves in the front hallway. I'm sure 100 years ago, the telephone and housing industries never would have envisioned a time when there would be more than one phone in a house, much less that everyone would carry around their own little phone with them. Who knows where the electronics industry will take us...fewer books, maybe, but hopefully not fewer people reading.

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    Mi parolas esperanton malbone Trojan Man's avatar
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    There's a bookshop in my city that doubles as a sort of boutique café, and only sells "specialty" books (my favourite title was "Dont vote! It just encourages the bastards"). That's what I said before, Aggie: I think bookshops have to diversify, to meet modern demand. Books are almost treated as curiosities now, in a time when many things can be found on Google for free, and Hollywood movies largely replace the need to read fiction books. Which I think is quite sad, because, like receiving handwritten letters vs. emails etc, I think books offer some things that other media can't quite deliver on.

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    Oliphaunt The Original An Gadaí's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Orual View post
    Books are not fucked. I love my e-reader, but they all have limitations. Not everyone can afford an expensive piece of electronics - library books are still free.
    Extrapolating from MP3 hardware, it's only a matter of a couple of years (maybe months) before ultra-cheap e-readers become available. Right now, a problem I'd find with having an e-reader is that if I leave it on the bus that's $100 or more down the drain, whereas if I leave a novel that's $10 or less. Same issue with breaking it, it's kinda hard to break a book compared to an electronic device. However when e-readers are down to $20 then why bother with paper.

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    Oliphaunt The Original An Gadaí's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Sarahfeena View post
    Who knows where the electronics industry will take us...fewer books, maybe, but hopefully not fewer people reading.
    People read more now than they ever did, although I don't know how many people read novels as a pastime verses the recent past. There are more distractors available that combine text/audio/video.

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    my god, he's full of stars... OneCentStamp's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by The Original An Gadaí View post
    Extrapolating from MP3 hardware, it's only a matter of a couple of years (maybe months) before ultra-cheap e-readers become available. Right now, a problem I'd find with having an e-reader is that if I leave it on the bus that's $100 or more down the drain, whereas if I leave a novel that's $10 or less. Same issue with breaking it, it's kinda hard to break a book compared to an electronic device. However when e-readers are down to $20 then why bother with paper.
    Not to mention there's some crossover. My wife's phone is also her mp3 player, and when I'm hogging the family Kindle, it's also a perfectly serviceable e-reader. Neither of those two functions cost her a penny beyond the basic cost of the phone.
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    Oliphaunt The Original An Gadaí's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by spitz View post
    There's a bookshop in my city that doubles as a sort of boutique café, and only sells "specialty" books (my favourite title was "Dont vote! It just encourages the bastards"). That's what I said before, Aggie: I think bookshops have to diversify, to meet modern demand. Books are almost treated as curiosities now, in a time when many things can be found on Google for free, and Hollywood movies largely replace the need to read fiction books. Which I think is quite sad, because, like receiving handwritten letters vs. emails etc, I think books offer some things that other media can't quite deliver on.
    I don't think Hollywood replaces book reading. They're two different experiences, and the ultra-popularity of various modern books (DaVinci Code, Tom Clancy, Grisham, Harry Potter, Twilight etc.) belies the notion that reading books as a pastime is falling by the wayside. To be clearer, in my previous post, I was referring to media that can be accessed in situations where people might read novels like commuting.

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    Quote Originally posted by OneCentStamp View post
    Quote Originally posted by The Original An Gadaí View post
    Extrapolating from MP3 hardware, it's only a matter of a couple of years (maybe months) before ultra-cheap e-readers become available. Right now, a problem I'd find with having an e-reader is that if I leave it on the bus that's $100 or more down the drain, whereas if I leave a novel that's $10 or less. Same issue with breaking it, it's kinda hard to break a book compared to an electronic device. However when e-readers are down to $20 then why bother with paper.
    Not to mention there's some crossover. My wife's phone is also her mp3 player, and when I'm hogging the family Kindle, it's also a perfectly serviceable e-reader. Neither of those two functions cost her a penny beyond the basic cost of the phone.
    You guys make reasonable points. (Though I still think there will continue to be a place for reading material that doesn't require batteries/electricity.)

    I'll just be over here crying next to my paperbacks. Wiping my eyes with my mouldering Library Science degree.

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    A Groupie Marsilia's avatar
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    I do think there will be a time when bound books aren't the standard, but there's no reason to believe that a hardcover in twenty-five years won't be looked at similarly to a vinyl.
    So, I'll whisper in the dark, hoping you'll hear me.

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    my god, he's full of stars... OneCentStamp's avatar
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    Sure, but "similarly to a vinyl" right now means "highly valued as collector's items by a few people, who don't use them for their original purpose but as fetish items or investments." That's kind of a sad end.

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    A Dude Peeta Mellark's avatar
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    A couple decades from now you'll be waving your canes and telling your grandkids, "Why, in my day we put books on paper! And we liked it!"

    E-books are making money hand over fist right now, so the part of the "book publishing industry" that adapts will survive. It's the paper that's going by the wayside.

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    Quote Originally posted by OneCentStamp View post
    Sure, but "similarly to a vinyl" right now means "highly valued as collector's items by a few people, who don't use them for their original purpose but as fetish items or investments." That's kind of a sad end.
    I guess you and I know different record buyers. Most of the people I know who collect also have players and make comments like "It sounds better on vinyl."

    Quote Originally posted by Peeta Mellark View post
    A couple decades from now you'll be waving your canes and telling your grandkids, "Why, in my day we put books on paper! And we liked it!"

    E-books are making money hand over fist right now, so the part of the "book publishing industry" that adapts will survive. It's the paper that's going by the wayside.
    Exactly. Mom and pop outfits (there are still a few) are diversifying with crafts and specialty items, while big chains are getting into the reader market and working out ways to keep that money flowing into their stores. Books are just changing. At my store, the "I still prefer paper" comments are now apologetic almost as often as they're smug.
    So, I'll whisper in the dark, hoping you'll hear me.

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    Quote Originally posted by OneCentStamp View post
    Sure, but "similarly to a vinyl" right now means "highly valued as collector's items by a few people, who don't use them for their original purpose but as fetish items or investments." That's kind of a sad end.
    Quote Originally posted by Peeta Mellark View post
    A couple decades from now you'll be waving your canes and telling your grandkids, "Why, in my day we put books on paper! And we liked it!"

    E-books are making money hand over fist right now, so the part of the "book publishing industry" that adapts will survive. It's the paper that's going by the wayside.
    Dammit, it's too early in the week for me to want to pitch myself out the nearest window ...

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    Quote Originally posted by Peeta Mellark View post
    E-books are making money hand over fist right now, so the part of the "book publishing industry" that adapts will survive. It's the paper that's going by the wayside.
    It's not just the paper though, it could well spell the end of authors making money from their books.

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    A Dude Peeta Mellark's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by The Original An Gadaí View post
    Quote Originally posted by Peeta Mellark View post
    E-books are making money hand over fist right now, so the part of the "book publishing industry" that adapts will survive. It's the paper that's going by the wayside.
    It's not just the paper though, it could well spell the end of authors making money from their books.
    Why would it do that? If there is an easy, affordable way to instantly get a digital format there's not much of an incentive to pirate. If I could instantly buy and download any song I wanted using my MP3 player, I'd be an idiot to go through the time and trouble to pirate music on my computer and then manually load it on. The e-publishers and bookstores capitalizing on e-readers are helping authors make money by streamlining the buying process.

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    Porno Dealing Monster pepperlandgirl's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by The Original An Gadaí View post
    Quote Originally posted by Peeta Mellark View post
    E-books are making money hand over fist right now, so the part of the "book publishing industry" that adapts will survive. It's the paper that's going by the wayside.
    It's not just the paper though, it could well spell the end of authors making money from their books.
    No it's not. I was at the Romance Times Convention two weeks ago, surrounded by professional authors, editors, and agents, and none of them seemed the least bit inclined to think that ebooks spell the end of their livelihood--in fact, the major topic of discussion for the past 2 years at professional conferences has been about the potential, the new markets opening up, and the way to capitalize on the public's increasing desire for easily purchased and acquired books. There's a revolution in publishing now, and it's unfortunate that small business owners and other supporters of the current system are getting caught in the crossfire. But there isn't any indication that authors are going to lose money as more and more publishers make the transition.
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    Quote Originally posted by OneCentStamp View post
    Books aren't toast *yet*, but they can't be far behind print newspapers in that regard, and print newspapers are going to be extinct in the developed world within 5-10 years.
    Print newspapers are nowhere near being extinct, but a lot of them have moved into an online presence. If you look at the more successfuk ones, they have slightly different audiences and targets for who they package each version to.
    In the land of the blind, the one-arm man is king.

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    The whole Kindle library lending thing has been available via Sony, and is a service provided by Overdrive. It's a pain in the ass and hardly spells the end of book publishing. You've also got to have an account with the library, which is location tied. There's no way to sign up for the NYC Public library if you live anywhere outside of NYC.

    The companies who have embraced ebooks (primarily Baen) have done ridiculous amounts of business compared to the traditional large companies. The publishers need to cut their ebook sales costs down to paperback prices. Release date, $15/book (ie hardcover), when paperback is released, cut the price down to $7.

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    The whole Kindle library lending thing has been available via Sony, and is a service provided by Overdrive. It's a pain in the ass and hardly spells the end of book publishing. You've also got to have an account with the library, which is location tied. There's no way to sign up for the NYC Public library if you live anywhere outside of NYC.

    The companies who have embraced ebooks (primarily Baen) have done ridiculous amounts of business compared to the traditional large companies. The publishers need to cut their ebook sales costs down to paperback prices. Release date, $15/book (ie hardcover), when paperback is released, cut the price down to $7.

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    Mi parolas esperanton malbone Trojan Man's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by The Original An Gadaí View post
    Quote Originally posted by spitz View post
    There's a bookshop in my city that doubles as a sort of boutique café, and only sells "specialty" books (my favourite title was "Dont vote! It just encourages the bastards"). That's what I said before, Aggie: I think bookshops have to diversify, to meet modern demand. Books are almost treated as curiosities now, in a time when many things can be found on Google for free, and Hollywood movies largely replace the need to read fiction books. Which I think is quite sad, because, like receiving handwritten letters vs. emails etc, I think books offer some things that other media can't quite deliver on.
    The key word is "largely". Of course people still read books, but do you not think the number of fiction-readers has decreased in the face of Hollywood making movie versions of paper novels? And as I said, paper books seem to be becoming curiosities in the face of new media, which doesn't mean the death of books, but the need for them to be marketed/sold differently.
    I don't think Hollywood replaces book reading. They're two different experiences, and the ultra-popularity of various modern books (DaVinci Code, Tom Clancy, Grisham, Harry Potter, Twilight etc.) belies the notion that reading books as a pastime is falling by the wayside. To be clearer, in my previous post, I was referring to media that can be accessed in situations where people might read novels like commuting.
    Last edited by Trojan Man; 21 Apr 2011 at 05:36 AM. Reason: I fucked up the quoting thing, sorry.

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    Quote Originally posted by hobbler View post
    The companies who have embraced ebooks (primarily Baen) have done ridiculous amounts of business compared to the traditional large companies. The publishers need to cut their ebook sales costs down to paperback prices. Release date, $15/book (ie hardcover), when paperback is released, cut the price down to $7.
    Yeah, it's all about understanding how to sell ebooks. My company is selling far, far more ebooks these days than we have ever sold the dead tree variety. A reasonable, non-static price helps a lot in that respect. A lot of epublishers have their books come out cheap and then raise the price a few weeks later, which isn't the best way to capitalize on demand. It leads to a lot of sales right off the bat, but they don't make much money and sales drop off abruptly afterward.

    The companies that learn to adapt are going to do well and so will their authors. Authors who are tied to the stupid, maladaptive publishers may suffer, but those who can get into the good publishers will do well. Pretty much how it's always worked, really.
    So now they are just dirt-covered English people in fur pelts with credit cards.

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    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    I should mention that I personally am buying more books since I got my nook, and going to the library a lot less. Books I want to read right away when they come out, I'm sometimes willing to pay $10-12, rather than sit on a waiting list at the library. And I have a lot of things on my nook that were free or just a few dollars, so I haven't had to go to the library as much to browse for something to read.

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    Sarah, that reminds me of my favorite thing about my nook. I can preorder a book that hasn't come out yet, and then download it the day it comes out. I ended up doing that with the Earth's Children series when I decided to read my way through it, with the latest book waiting at the end for me when I get to it. It's extremely convenient, much more-so than if I were trying to get through the series via the library.
    So now they are just dirt-covered English people in fur pelts with credit cards.

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    Quote Originally posted by Zuul View post
    Sarah, that reminds me of my favorite thing about my nook. I can preorder a book that hasn't come out yet, and then download it the day it comes out. I ended up doing that with the Earth's Children series when I decided to read my way through it, with the latest book waiting at the end for me when I get to it. It's extremely convenient, much more-so than if I were trying to get through the series via the library.
    I just did that with a fab new book called The Wilder Life, written by a woman who wanted to see if she could discover Laura Ingalls Wilder's authentic life. (Highly recommend, if you're a Laura fan, BTW.) I ordered it a few weeks ago, and it was like a little present waiting for me when I woke up one morning. Fun!

    Haven't heard good things about the Auel book, though, I'm sorry to say.

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    Quote Originally posted by Sarahfeena View post
    I just did that with a fab new book called The Wilder Life, written by a woman who wanted to see if she could discover Laura Ingalls Wilder's authentic life. (Highly recommend, if you're a Laura fan, BTW.) I ordered it a few weeks ago, and it was like a little present waiting for me when I woke up one morning. Fun!
    Oh, that sounds good. I'll have to check that one out!

    Haven't heard good things about the Auel book, though, I'm sorry to say.
    I'm still stuck on the fourth book in the series. These things are long! So far I've noticed a couple inconsistencies between books (words for religious icons changing, events being described differently, etc), and some wince-worthy fuck ups with zoology. Like a pony-sized colt of less than a year old being able to carry around a man of 6'6" without suffering any damage and a wolf's fur getting drenched in sweat. Some things (the neandertals being swarthy and unable to communicate verbally, the sharp divide between them and the physically modern humans) can be blamed on when she started the books, since anthropology has made huge strides in recent years. I'll be interested to see if she takes any new discoveries into consideration in the new book or if it's just a big cheesy romance novel all Gone with the Ice Age.
    So now they are just dirt-covered English people in fur pelts with credit cards.

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    Quote Originally posted by pepperlandgirl View post
    Quote Originally posted by The Original An Gadaí View post
    Quote Originally posted by Peeta Mellark View post
    E-books are making money hand over fist right now, so the part of the "book publishing industry" that adapts will survive. It's the paper that's going by the wayside.
    It's not just the paper though, it could well spell the end of authors making money from their books.
    No it's not. I was at the Romance Times Convention two weeks ago, surrounded by professional authors, editors, and agents, and none of them seemed the least bit inclined to think that ebooks spell the end of their livelihood--in fact, the major topic of discussion for the past 2 years at professional conferences has been about the potential, the new markets opening up, and the way to capitalize on the public's increasing desire for easily purchased and acquired books. There's a revolution in publishing now, and it's unfortunate that small business owners and other supporters of the current system are getting caught in the crossfire. But there isn't any indication that authors are going to lose money as more and more publishers make the transition.
    It's not just small business owners, all book vendors are fucked. But as you digitise you are left open to the spectre of piracy. I'm sure print piracy exists in the developing world but e-book piracy is going to be enormous. I'm glad for those who see a benefit from digitising but the experience of other entertainment/content industries is that there are going to be a lot of people out of pocket in this "revolution".

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    You're an idiot. The publishers that have embraced DRM free ebooks have GAINED market. I spend a ton of money on Baen because it's so damned easy to buy books directly from their store, they sell Advance Reader Copies (unproofed) prior to selling the paperback at $15. Waiting a month or two drops the price to $6, or a monthly pack for $15, containing 5 or so books. I buy them almost all the time (lured in by previews), there are zero torrents of most of their books, they have an extensive free library, and no DRM. I actually purchase more from them directly than I do from any other source.

    The company turns a profit, keeps attracting new/old authors (Niven, McCaffery, CJ Cherryh, Mercedes Lackey, Andre Norton, etc) and have gone from an extreme niche publisher to partnering with larger publishing houses as a sci-fi/fantasy niche. Their business model is successful and sustainable, and a great model.

    Penguin, on the other hand, released the latest Ken Follett book for $20 on ebook, at the same time they released the print for $18. Torrents of that were up within a day or two and widely utilized.

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    Oliphaunt The Original An Gadaí's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by hobbler View post
    You're an idiot.
    You're a cunt.

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    Moderator note: hobbler, please make your points without gratuitous insults. And AG, no need to respond in kind, just stick to the subject. Thanks!

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    So I call him an idiot because he doesn't face facts and is being reactionary to a service that has already been available (Overdrive), he calls me a cunt, I get in trouble? No wonder there aren't many people who post on this board anymore.

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    No one's in trouble, I'm not handing out any official warnings or anything, just asking everyone not to use insults or direct profanity at other posters.

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    For whom nothing is written. Oliveloaf's avatar
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    I am creating an avatar for Hobbler. What color is mean?
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    Moderator note: What do I have to do, stomp my foot to get people to take it out of this thread? Oliveloaf, let's let it go.
    Last edited by Sarahfeena; 23 Apr 2011 at 12:45 PM.

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    For whom nothing is written. Oliveloaf's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Sarahfeena View post
    Moderator note: What do I have to do, stomp my foot to get people to take it out of this thread? Oliveloaf, let's let it go.
    sorry
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    I like my Nook and only download free stuff that the publishers have made free. The rest of it, I pay for.
    So, I'll whisper in the dark, hoping you'll hear me.

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    Sarah: Proportional response. My apologies for derailing this thread by writing about something other than fear mongering. Next time I'll make sure to belittle people without direct insults.

    An: I was out of line by calling you an idiot. If I hadn't, you would have had to resort to further fear mongering instead of coming back with some sort of facts that simply show we're undergoing a major shift in the way artistic intellectual property consumption is consumed. I'm still waiting for digital music to completely destroy music as an art form, despite similar arguments by record company CEOs and Jon Bon Jovi. The accessibility of digital media makes distribution easier, taking the power out of the hands of the major publishing houses. 15 years ago, these publishing houses controlled everything that we could read simply because of the costs required to proof, print, and distribute anything. End result now, niche publishing is making a major comeback, giving readers a ridiculous amount of options and letting the publishers take more risks with who they publish due to lessened costs. Now we're free to download as much slash or fanfic as we want, as well as more mainstream manuscripts by authors who probably wouldn't have been as widely distributed in the old ways. This is a great time to be a reader.

    Or to go back a bit further, this is destroying literature exactly the same way the mechanical printing press did.

    Olive: I'd say go for a picture of Extra Salty Saltines, because I'm a salty cracker.

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    Quote Originally posted by hobbler View post
    This is a great time to be a reader.
    Hell yes it is.

    Thanks for the info on Baen. That sounds like the perfect setup for digital publishing. And I love me some cheap sci-fi and fantasy.

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    Quote Originally posted by Peeta Mellark View post
    Quote Originally posted by hobbler View post
    This is a great time to be a reader.
    Hell yes it is.
    I never said it wasn't. I think it's possibly the best time ever to be a music fan, you can get what you want, when you want, FREE (or if you're being honest about it, cheaper and quicker than hitherto). But it sucks for a lot of musicians, in a way it didn't before. Artists are no longer able to make a living in the ways they could before. And although authors do lecture tours and other live events, they won't even have as much of a live or merchandising circuit to rely on if people continue to support them by reading them, but not purchasing their wares.

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    The people who are being hurt by the digital publishing revolution are the printers, the independent bookstores, and the publishers failing to adapt. The reduction in profits for authors has little to do with digital publishing, as it began before there was a viable e-reader on the market. It had a lot more to do with rising printing costs and distribution and shitty contracts. Those who are with publishers that can manage the transition are doing just fine, because that's really what it comes down to. In fact, it's easier to get published than it ever was before, assuming you want to look outside New York.

    I'm personally responsible for pushing my company to move into the digital publishing market, as my bosses had feared piracy and refused early on. I have seen our profits grow immensely from what they had been. We've kept careful records of this. I've yet to find any of our books in torrents. Yes, book piracy is out there, but because of the convenience of e-books and the way that people approach books versus music it's simply not working the same way that music piracy works. Much of the music piracy problem is a direct result of massive fuck ups from the recording industry, as well as the fact that it wasn't terribly diversified. The fact that so many publishers have embraced e-books early has completely changed the fight.

    You know which books are the most commonly pirated? The ones sold for unmarketable high prices and the ones not offered in e-book format. JK Rowling feared piracy and so refused to have the Harry Potter books available as e-books. They're all pirated now, but you still can't honestly buy an e-book and let her make a profit off of it.

    Meanwhile, e-publishing is making massive amounts of money and supporting so many little niche publishers that it's a fantastic time to be a writer. Any damn thing I want to write (shape-shifting hermaphrodite assassins bent on world domination? sold!) is going to find it's market. The CWF+RTB=$$$* formula truly does work.

    * Connect With Fans + Reason To Buy = Profit. The convenience and cheaper price of an e-book--coupled with, yes, the occasionally pirated copy--draws people in and turns people into fans and loyal customers.
    So now they are just dirt-covered English people in fur pelts with credit cards.

  42. #42
    A Groupie Marsilia's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Zuul View post
    Any damn thing I want to write (shape-shifting hermaphrodite assassins bent on world domination? sold!) is going to find it's market.
    Oooh! When is that one coming out?
    So, I'll whisper in the dark, hoping you'll hear me.

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