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Thread: Hostility between theists and atheists

  1. #1
    A Dude Peeta Mellark's avatar
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    Default Hostility between theists and atheists

    It happens. We all know it happens. The question is why?

    I generally keep my religious views to myself, feeling no need to share them unless the topic actually comes up. Even when it does, I usually try to sidestep it unless it feels like a comfortable place to mention my faith. When atheists talk about how the religious are crazy, stupid, deluded, whatever, I normally bite my tongue.

    But why such hostility? Why does what a theist believe matter to the atheist?

    On the flipside, there are the evangelists who push hard to force their religion down other people's throats. Their values are apparently too important just to be applied to their own lives, they have to be applied to everyone else's. Even though Jesus never said "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you judge one another" or "Give to the Church what is Caesar's, and to the Church what is God's, and anything else you can think of should be the Church's too." Wanting to share the good news is one thing, but harassment and self-righteousness aren't the best way to do that.

    So why is just respecting differences in belief so difficult?

  2. #2
    A Groupie Marsilia's avatar
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    Because, the two groups you mentioned are the loudest, so they get the most attention. When I've mentioned to the atheist/agnostic/anti-religion people that I know that I'm a Christian and have never tried to berate them for believing differently, they tend to start with the "Well--uh...you're different" talk. They've seen the WBC on TV, or had relatives take their religious beliefs badly, so they attribute it to "all Christians," until they see otherwise, then decide that the different one is such a small minority as to be negligible.

    Then, there are the theists who are regularly called stupid or even evil or scoffed at for believing "fairy tales." Meeting an atheist who, when faced with someone who admits their belief will simply shrug and say "I don't believe that," or have a respectful conversation, is such a shock after what we've heard that we have the same "Well--uh...you're different" response to the respectful atheist that the atheists have to the non-evangelical Christians.

    At least, that's how I've seen it.
    So, I'll whisper in the dark, hoping you'll hear me.

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    Administrator CatInASuit's avatar
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    I think you are talking about the evangelists on both sides, because I think the majority of people are understanding and accept that the other person believes in something that they may consider not quite right.

    On the athiest evangelist side, it is because they see religion as a "Bad Thing", which should have no power over the people who should be free from such non-sensical and unscientific ideas.

    On the religious evangelist side, its because it is partly a way of maintaining power, but also seeing the athiestic lifestyle as corrupt and evil, more out to do harm than good, because without religion there would be no concept of good or evil.

    Both of them have good points about the other side and both of them are equally dubious. Strangely enough, I have yet to see Richard Dawkins aim his sights at Islam and not just Christianity seeing as they are come from the same area.
    In the land of the blind, the one-arm man is king.

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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    That might be your location Marsilia, it has never been that bad in my experience in most places. Mostly people just change the subject quickly. Anyone strongly proclaiming their belief or lack there-of is generally looked at askance in my area and in my time in the Navy.

    We had one overly religious person that I went through training with. I would engage him and usually use his own words against him to the delight of the religious and otherwise. As one person said, "Look I believe in God, I believe in my church, but only a fool or an asshole will try to push their beliefs on others."

    I rarely met an evangelical actually and I guess that makes a big difference. I can see where hostilities would be higher where evangelicals are ore common. From what I have heard the military is more religious now as evangelical form a higher percentage than when I was in. I wonder if my experiences would be far different now.

  5. #5
    Oliphaunt
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    Quote Originally posted by Peeta Mellark View post
    So why is just respecting differences in belief so difficult?
    I don't think it's so much that repecting differences is so difficult, it's more that people who don't make the most noise and therefore get the most attention.

    Especially on the internet, which exists mostly to give people the chance to be loud, condescending, argumentative jackasses.

  6. #6
    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Yeah, I think off of the internet and outside the very religious areas of the world it's not so much of an issue.

    The ones who do get loud about it are definitely coming at it from an evangelical point of view. I think what tends to cause it is that when someone doesn't agree with you on a very basic worldview, there's a tendency to see this disagreement as challenging. If someone doesn't see things the way you do, then maybe you feel like you need to correct them.

    Imagine you are deeply invested in Vikings being the first people from the Old World to interact with the Americas since their initial colonization. In fact, you feel passionately enough about this that you want to educate people on the history and correct them about Columbus not truly discovering anything. Then someone else says that the ancient Egyptians found the Americas and had contact with ancient South American cultures and there are examples of their sacred scarabs there. Whether there's credible evidence for this or not is almost beside the point. The point is that something which sounds ridiculous to you is being touted as fact. It's insulting! You're being told you're wrong! How dare this person say you're wrong! Now they're going to mislead people and confuse them about history!

    And I'd say that this sort of feeling of being challenged or having your beliefs questioned starts the cycle Marsilia mentions. Once a person feels like they need to be on the defense, they're more likely to engage in the behaviors that then lead to people thinking, "Man, everybody who is X is a dick about my religion/atheism." Maybe it works on some fence-sitters, but it alienates everyone who disagrees.

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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Funny though, while I do believe there is fair proof the Nordic People got here first from Europe/Africa at least, I am open to the idea of Phoenicians, Egyptians or others arriving even earlier. If some sort of proof was provided I would be happy to look it over. Maybe that is why I am agnostic and not atheist.

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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    It doesn't seem entirely absurd to consider sea-fairing people might have come to the Americas earlier than we know. The Phoenicians might have had a better chance of distant voyages, though, with how advanced their ships were for the time.

    Then again, I'm agnostic too.

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    Oliphaunt The Original An Gadaí's avatar
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    The idea of atheists getting riled up about stuff strikes me as sorta undergraduate. Some atheists here (and rightly so) campaign to make it easier to have your name stricken from religious membership and for secular state schools, which most schools here aren't yet. The issue is most salient when it comes to one's children. If I had a child I'd more than likely have to get thim/her baptised or I'd be precluding them from the better schools in my area. In many instances I'd be fine but if there were too many kids vying for places in a school, the baptised/"Catholic" kids get automatic preference over non-baptised kids.

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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Now that would spook me AG. But as I think of it, I believe when we still lived in NYC, that the Catholic schools were often the best schools by far below HS level. That was a fully secular school system.

  11. #11
    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    There's definitely a huge difference between actual campaigns for rights and internet slap fights.

    Do Catholic schools in the US usually require baptism for attendance? My sister was going to send her youngest to the Catholic school here and her being a little heathen hadn't been a problem. I know my friend who went to a Catholic school back in Nevada had not been Catholic and may not have been an official member of any church.

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    A Groupie Marsilia's avatar
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    My mom was looking into Catholic school for me in Kentucky when I was in middle school, and not being Catholic didn't seem to be a consideration for them.
    So, I'll whisper in the dark, hoping you'll hear me.

  13. #13
    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    Here in Chicago it's very typical for Catholic school students to not be Catholic, but are going there as an academic alternative to the public schools.

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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Zuul View post
    Do Catholic schools in the US usually require baptism for attendance? My sister was going to send her youngest to the Catholic school here and her being a little heathen hadn't been a problem. I know my friend who went to a Catholic school back in Nevada had not been Catholic and may not have been an official member of any church.
    Quote Originally posted by Marsilia View post
    My mom was looking into Catholic school for me in Kentucky when I was in middle school, and not being Catholic didn't seem to be a consideration for them.
    It was not required, but not surprisingly Catholics got first preference if there was a question of room like AG mentioned above. I know a friend of my sisters went to Catholic School with them and he was Jewish. Though that family was a little odd for the time as they celebrated Christmas. The mom had to hang a sheet in front of the Christmas Tree when the Rabbi came over for instruction.

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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by What Exit? View post
    It was not required, but not surprisingly Catholics got first preference if there was a question of room like AG mentioned above.
    Makes sense. The schools I've been aware of were not in such high demand that there would have been a question of room. They were good schools, but without a huge Catholic population they were more likely to get people coming for a good education than because they were Catholic.

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    Prehistoric Bitchslapper Sarahfeena's avatar
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    I actually never really knew there was hostility between atheists and theists until I started reading message boards. And it's not like I never discussed this stuff with anybody, but I've had interesting conversations that were not at all angry. The anger baffles me, truly.

  17. #17
    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Same here, Sarah. Marsilia were discussing this in IM and I can honestly say I don't see any hostility in my day to day life. If I listen to Richard Dawkins or seek out an evangelical sermon I might hear it, but otherwise that sort of stuff seems to be in the realm of message boards. Apparently her experience differs, but I just don't think talking or behaving that way could possible be seen as socially acceptable where I'm from. Offending people by lashing out at something personal is rude.

  18. #18
    A Groupie Marsilia's avatar
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    Maybe, it's because everybody thinks I'm going to agree with them, being queer and a Christian at the same time, but I get it from both sides. Usually, it's atheists trying to talk about the evils of Christianity, or the stupidity of faith. I've actually, after reminding people that I'm actually pretty serious about my faith, gotten looks and responses ranging from baffled incomprehension to flat out disbelief.
    So, I'll whisper in the dark, hoping you'll hear me.

  19. #19
    Oliphaunt The Original An Gadaí's avatar
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    To clarify, in some instances there is no alternative to the local religiously-adminstrated school (the curriculum in recent years has become steadily more secularised) so kids starting off school can find themselves with nowhere to go. This came to the fore in 2007 when there was no place for a significant number of Junior Infants kids to go to school. A new school had to be opened hastily and initially it was 100% African. These kids' parents were not Catholic so they lost out on places in the established local Catholic schools.

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