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Thread: Mythology, Legends and Fantasy: Most interesting and Mysterious characters.

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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Default Mythology, Legends and Fantasy: Most interesting and Mysterious characters.

    I was thinking Gandalf might be the most interesting figure of the adviser/mentor types.

    His back story is probably even odder than Merlin's. He has strong parallels to Odin without being a jerk. He has one of the great and most oft repeated lines that I will post in full instead:

    "`You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence
    fell. `I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You
    cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the
    Shadow! You cannot pass.' "

    or the movie version


    "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Ûdun. Go back to the Shadow! YOU! SHALL NOT! PASS!"



    He was a loremaster, humble, kickass swordsman, brave, wise and yet remarkable for fireworks and smoke rings.

    So he is my suggestion for the best. Though I can well see arguments for Merlin.
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    Mi parolas esperanton malbone Trojan Man's avatar
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    Dunno if this is in the right area, but I've been fascinated with gargoyles for some time. And the story behind them.

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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by spitz View post
    Dunno if this is in the right area, but I've been fascinated with gargoyles for some time. And the story behind them.
    I don't have a lot of answers for that, they were an architectural oddities to scare off demons and run water off of roofs. Pretty boring but someone else might have more. But I was really looking for interesting characters.

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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    This is a difficult question, particularly since some mythological and legendary figures like Merlin are going to have many different interpretations over the ages. As much as I like the figure of Merlin, I think the fact that he's so mutable points to him being a weak character. He's an idea and an archetype, but the basic essence of him as a character can be so easily altered without any real harm to the story of him being identifiable as Merlin. Meanwhile, if you change one thing about Gandalf he really isn't Gandalf anymore.

    There are a lot of characters like that whom I find fascinating (Morgan le Fay is another one), but there's no single version of them I could point to and say, "This. This is the essence of the character." In a way, Gandalf takes the elements of a lot of different iconic figures and creates this singular concept.

    If you went by popularity alone, it would probably lean towards heroes in recent works, but I don't think a hero can rightfully embody the same sort of mystery of a more peripheral character. When a character is the focus of the story, too much mystery becomes coyness. The peripheral wanderer who comes and goes and has more story than could ever be told, a story that will never be told, ends up far more fascinating.

    So with all this rambling, I'd say that to be an especially interesting and mysterious figure the character needs to be 1) peripheral and 2) have a solid, canonical representation.
    So now they are just dirt-covered English people in fur pelts with credit cards.

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    Mi parolas esperanton malbone Trojan Man's avatar
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    Churches used them to keep the demons away from their building, despite their own belief that such superstitious humdrum was satanic. But whatever.

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    Oliphaunt Rube E. Tewesday's avatar
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    Well, there's always the Satan. Who is he, one of God's most trusted Councillors, pointing out the defects of the apparently just? A lying, malignant figure of pure evil? The Prince of this World?

    What is his tale, really? Or for that matter, who is Yahweh? How'd the grumpy old storm god become the all good master of the universe?

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    Sophmoric Existentialist
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    I have always been fascinated by Odysseus, and by King Theseus.
    Sophmoric Existentialist

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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Satan is interesting, as Lucifer he was the Light Bringer and a mighty Angel/subdued and acquired God IRC. Almost a Prometheus figure I believe. But most of his aspects were pulled from pantheons and were pretty nasty. Satan though was what the Uber-Lawyer? Please insert every lawyer joke you know here. He was the prosecutor for Job wasn't he?

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    A Dude Peeta Mellark's avatar
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    This is a really neat thread idea, What Exit?. I hope you don't mind but I tossed out a link to it on Facebook.

    The characterization of Satan as a sort of lawyer type is accurate to my understanding. His purpose is temptation and testing humanity, as much of God's plan as anything else. He and Judas Iscariot (another fascinating one) both hold the enviable positions of being necessary bringers of misfortune so that a greater good can be found. They're almost like mirror images of the Christ figure. They sacrifice themselves, in a way.

    Along the same lines there's Loki, Prometheus as mentioned, or Coyote, Rabbit or Crow (various animal Trickster gods) in Native American lore.

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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    The Tricksters are pretty cool and I love there modern American sibling the best, Bugs Bunny. Woody Woodpecker and Heckle & Jeckle where other pretenders to the throne of modern American trickster, but the Brooklyn Bunny won out.

    In case you don't know Heckle & Jeckle, they were a pair of magpies. Filling the Crow's spot to some degree.


    Oddly Wile E. Coyote was not a trickster but the buttmonkey instead.

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    Administrator CatInASuit's avatar
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    I think it is only in more moden times that Lucifer became Evil whereas previously he was the tempter of man. The Devil's Advocate

    Gandalf is a great character, but he is a modern creation and nowhere near as interesting as Merlin. It's like arguing that Aslan would be a better advisor/mentor. We are looking at them with a modern eye.

    Merlin has been told and retold in so many ways but is still one of the major parts of the Arthurian Legend. Gandalf and Aslan are very fixed entities, Merlin has more stories and possiblities than you can shake a stick at.

    Best mentor off the top of my head would be someone like Zhuge Liang, whether from the story or from real life.
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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Merlin is such an intriguing figure. His legend is at least 1200 years old and maybe 1500 or more. His backstory is all over the place. He is also a very odd figure to send Holy Christian Knights looking for the Holy Grail as later legends did.

    He is the ultimate archetype for "The Good Wizard". As early as I read the Hobbit, I still knew Merlin first. One thing I like about Gandalf is he is not much like Merlin overall. Tolkien did an excellent job with that. Merlin though was more fallible and more prone to mistakes and this makes him more interesting in many ways. Besides, did Gandalf ever raise a major tourist attraction like Merlin did? I mean Gandalf might persuade some Hobbits to take adventures and Princely men to defy their fathers for good cause and even convince a Giant to block up a goblin hole but Merlin had Giants bring Stonehenge over from Ireland according to Geoffrey of Monmouth.

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    A Dude Peeta Mellark's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by vison View post
    I have always been fascinated by Odysseus, and by King Theseus.
    I'd missed this the first time through the thread, but this was a great suggestion. Odysseus really is a fascinating figure. Deceitful, yet honorable by his own code.

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    Administrator CatInASuit's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Peeta Mellark View post
    I'd missed this the first time through the thread, but this was a great suggestion. Odysseus really is a fascinating figure. Deceitful, yet honorable by his own code.
    I don't know if I would call Odysseus deceitful more perhaps cunning. He certainly worked things to his own advantage time and again. But he was honourable and far smarter than any of the other generals who went to war with Troy.

    And he had some great excuses for getting home late from work

    The problem is in trying to mix characters from Myths and Legends with those from the written fantasy Genre from the last 50 years or so. One is a set of stories with no checkable background, which may or may not have occured, that have altered over time, been told and retold, lost, found, lost, found again, reworked, and retold. The other is a fixed story that anyone can get from a library.

    Not to mention that fantasy books are quite happy to plunder Myths and Legends for ideas and tropes to use in their plots and archetypes.

    Now about this bloke called Beowulf....
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    A Dude Peeta Mellark's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by CatInASuit View post
    I don't know if I would call Odysseus deceitful more perhaps cunning.
    Hmph. Spoken like a Greek.

    I do agree that including fantasy books that have been written fairly recently is going to skew things. It's hard to compare a mythological character with a ton of different interpretations to, say, Dumbledore.

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    Administrator CatInASuit's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Peeta Mellark View post

    I do agree that including fantasy books that have been written fairly recently is going to skew things. It's hard to compare a mythological character with a ton of different interpretations to, say, Dumbledore.
    Oh that one is easy. Dumbleclutz is an idiot. He gets ranked among sidekicks and evil vizier lackeys.

    Here's an interesting one, Daedalus or Wayland Smith?
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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Daedalus was a great inventor and architect but not overly complicated.

    Wayland Smith has several guises and could be seen as good or evil at times. In all stories he was a nasty and despicable foe. Like Daedalus he also used hand made wings to escape though. So much more interesting and much darker than Daedalus.

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    Oliphaunt
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    Quote Originally posted by Peeta Mellark View post
    Quote Originally posted by CatInASuit View post
    I don't know if I would call Odysseus deceitful more perhaps cunning.
    Hmph. Spoken like a Greek.
    I think the Greeks called him πολυμῆτις ("many-minded"). He is my favorite epic Greek. In a world where everyone gains their glory by ruling over many men, or being mighty in battle - his excellence comes from his super brains and clever speech. He is awesome.

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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Orual View post
    I think the Greeks called him πολυμῆτις ("many-minded"). He is my favorite epic Greek. In a world where everyone gains their glory by ruling over many men, or being mighty in battle - his excellence comes from his super brains and clever speech. He is awesome.
    He is, and totally the kind of character I love to find in mythology. His epic strength and battle skill aren't what make him notable, but his mind. Though, I do remember being a little creeped out by him when we were reading Euripedes's plays and we got to the part where he tricked Agememnon's wife into allowing her daughter to be sacrificed.

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    Aged Turtle Wizard Clothahump's avatar
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    Well, the most widely discussed character in mythology has to be the character of Jesus. He's portrayed as wise and good, has supernatural powers, dies in the role of the redeemer - what's not to like? His is definitely a typical Hero's Journey story, and the Hero's Journey is the story that resonates within us all.
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    Oliphaunt
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    Quote Originally posted by Zuul View post
    Though, I do remember being a little creeped out by him when we were reading Euripedes's plays and we got to the part where he tricked Agememnon's wife into allowing her daughter to be sacrificed.
    Stuff like that is why I tend to view the works of Euripides as melodramatic mythology fanfiction.
    Last edited by Orual; 04 Feb 2011 at 03:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally posted by Clothahump View post
    Well, the most widely discussed character in mythology has to be the character of Jesus. He's portrayed as wise and good, has supernatural powers, dies in the role of the redeemer - what's not to like? His is definitely a typical Hero's Journey story, and the Hero's Journey is the story that resonates within us all.
    I guess I never think about him as he is too well known. But taken as a legendary character he is an interesting figure.

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    A Dude Peeta Mellark's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Orual View post
    Quote Originally posted by Zuul View post
    Though, I do remember being a little creeped out by him when we were reading Euripedes's plays and we got to the part where he tricked Agememnon's wife into allowing her daughter to be sacrificed.
    Stuff like that is why I tend to view the works of Euripides as melodramatic mythology fanfiction.
    This is the greatest description ever. That works so well.

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    Quote Originally posted by Clothahump View post
    Well, the most widely discussed character in mythology has to be the character of Jesus. He's portrayed as wise and good, has supernatural powers, dies in the role of the redeemer - what's not to like? His is definitely a typical Hero's Journey story, and the Hero's Journey is the story that resonates within us all.
    and in the retelling the story becomes bigger than the person who started it all.
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    Something just struck me about Odysseus when reading this - his appeal is in many ways similar to that of James Bond. Like Odysseus, Bond is not the strongest man in the fight, but no slouch as an athlete. Still, he usually uses his wits to get him out of a sticky situation, and is cruel and vicious when he needs to be. Bond is perhaps more ruthless and holds fewer loyalties, but he does have ideals and holds to them. That way we forgive his duplicity, much as we do with Odysseus. They also both seem to be considered unconventional but useful assets by their peers. I'm not saying that Bond = modern Odysseus; yet some of their common characteristics may explain their status as men [wo]men want to be [with].

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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    I can see that. It's a similar archetype at the very least. It's something more than just the standard hero mold of winning through amazing strength and martial skill.

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    Administrator CatInASuit's avatar
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    What are the interesting characters in Continetal America, not just the USA, Myths and Legends?

    I can think of some from Europe, Africa, Asia and even Australiasia, but not North or South America.
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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    Well we have Big Foot or Sasquatch that is a Yeti like large humanoid creature by reports.

    Locally we have the tales of the Jersey Devil.
    Another story placed the birth in Estelville, NJ. Mrs. Leeds, of Estelville, finding out she was pregnant with her 13th child, shouted,"I hope it's a devil". She got her wish. The child wad born with horns, a tail, wings, and a horse-like head. The creature revisited Mrs. Leeds everyday. She stood at her door and told it to leave. After awhile, the creature got the hint and never returned.
    It was about three feet and half high, with a head like a collie dog and
    a face like a horse. It had a long neck, wings about two feet long, and
    its back legs were like those of a crane, and it had horse's hooves.
    It walked on its back legs and held up two short front legs with paws
    on them. It didn't use the front legs at all while we were watching.
    My wife and I were scared, I tell you, but I managed to open the
    window and say, 'Shoo', and it turned around barked at me, and flew away
    Then we have some scattered Native American legends, especially stories of the Coyote and The Crow. The Coyote is a trickster God common to many of the ancient tribes though for some the trickster is a Hare. The Crow is more powerful spirit, one that may have created the earth or the one that led certain tribes to this land.

    Then we have a tall tales:
    Paul Bunyan and Babe the Blue Ox: A giant of a man and a giant of an ox. The super Lumberjack.
    Now I hear tell that Paul Bunyan was born in Bangor, Maine. It took five giant storks to deliver Paul to his parents. His first bed was a lumber wagon pulled by a team of horses. His father had to drive the wagon up to the top of Maine and back whenever he wanted to rock the baby to sleep...
    Pecos Bill who lassoed and rode a twister (tornado) among other things.

    We have the Headless Horseman of Sleepy Hollow

    We have several of our own Loch Ness Monster types. Champy of Lake Champlain might be the most famous but still pretty minor compared to Nessie.

    Johnny Appleseed you wandered the US planting apple trees and was basically a real figure.
    Johnny Appleseed was a hermit and a wanderer who was welcomed wherever he went in the Ohio territory. Everyone loved him, in spite of his unkempt appearance. He always carried a sack full of apple seeds to plant, and walked barefoot all year round. He knew the frontier woods better than anyone. Even the Indians respected Johnny Appleseed for his courage.
    Babe Ruth is nearly mythic at this point and was real of course.

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    Porosity Caster parzival's avatar
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    One of my favorites for creepiness is La Llorona (The Weeping Woman), known in probably most of Central if not all of Latin America. The story is of a (Hispanic) woman who drowned her children in a crazed/desperate attempt to gain the love of a man. Rejected, she ends up killing herself, but is thrown out of heaven until she can return with her children. For all eternity she walks the earth, wailing for her lost love, children, and her own soul.

    In some versions children are told that she'll come and try to steal them away. Sort of like a banshee, but with a darker back story.

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    Administrator CatInASuit's avatar
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    I always thought that a banshee was a fae who came to announce a death with her wailing.
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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    That is the most common story of the banshee who was of course one of the Sidhe before becoming just another Fae. But as the banshee is just the English corruption of Bean Sídhe there is more to their tale. They use to be associated with specific Irish families and messengers from the mounds.

    Over the centuries they became more generic death announcers and there was ever evolving stories about how they looked and who exactly they were.

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    Quote Originally posted by CatInASuit View post
    I always thought that a banshee was a fae who came to announce a death with her wailing.
    Sorry, those last two sentences weren't meant to be related to each other. The 'banshee' comparison is because they're both wailing and people fear them. (With La Llorona, she is often said to be speaking words, "¡Ay mis hijos!"). Another big difference is that the threat of La Llorona is used to keep children from wandering out at night, instead of (as with the banshee) the specter visiting the house.

    I did a little bit of searching and found the interesting story of La Malinche, who is probably somewhat tied to this legend.

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    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
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    The Shee and The Trickster are both very interesting entities.

    What about the Count St Germain - would he fit the bill?
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    Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo What Exit?'s avatar
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    I don't know of the Count. What can you tell me of him?

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    aka ivan the not-quite-as-terrible ivan astikov's avatar
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    He's supposed to have lived for 100's of years, mingled in the highest circles, and had all sorts of mystical powers. Whatever the fact and fiction, he obviously left quite an impression on those who came into contact with him, and has definitely attained a sort of mythical status.

    From his wikipedia page.
    Myths, legends and speculations about St. Germain began to be widespread in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and continue today. They include beliefs that he is immortal, the Wandering Jew, an alchemist with the "Elixir of Life", a Rosicrucian, and that he prophesied the French Revolution. He is said to have met the forger Giuseppe Balsamo (alias Cagliostro) in London and the composer Rameau in Venice.
    Last edited by ivan astikov; 28 Feb 2011 at 04:24 PM.
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    Administrator CatInASuit's avatar
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    The Count of St Germain is someone who makes Rasputin look normal.

    There are people living today who claim they have met him and follow his teachings.
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