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Thread: Religion Question: How Do Those Fundamnetalist Protestant Sects Which Emphasize Abstinance Deal With The Water Into Wine?

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    Curmudgeon OtakuLoki's avatar
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    Default Religion Question: How Do Those Fundamnetalist Protestant Sects Which Emphasize Abstinance Deal With The Water Into Wine?

    Basically, the first miracle performed by Christ in any of the gospels is when he turns the water into wine at a wedding celebration. (At the intercession of his mother, actually.)

    In my Catholic tradition understanding this event highlights a number of very important points for later theology.

    It establishes the precedent of intercession by the saints. i.e. The Trinity finds it acceptable to have requests for its favor to be presented to it through others.

    It also makes clear that there's no divine disfavor upon celebration.

    And most importantly to my mind, it emphasizes that alcohol is an approved method for celebration.



    So, how do the fundamentalists get around these things?

    Seventh Day Adventists shun (officially) all celebrations, reject intercession, and view drinking alcohol as one short step above baby rape, but below kicking beggars.

    Baptists reject intercession and drinking alcohol - to the point where some of them use the presence of wine in the Ceremony of the Eucharist as one more reason to point to the decadence of the Roman church.

    I'd love to have some factual answers from people about how these religions, famous for insisting on following direct, literal interpretations of the Bible, reconcile this apparent contradiction.

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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    I was eight when I stopped going to a Baptist church, so it's quite possible I'm remembering this wrong. However, the way I remember it being explained is that Jesus turned water into new wine, which they claimed was actually grape juice.
    So now they are just dirt-covered English people in fur pelts with credit cards.

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    Curmudgeon OtakuLoki's avatar
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    For the love of FSM!

    The adult explanation I've heard most has been that prior to good sanitation practices watered wine was the way to avoid the flux. Now that safe drinking water is the norm it's time to do what God really wants.

    Which isn't too bad (Unless you're actually trying to insist on complete literal obedience to the Bible.) until you wonder why people were so thrilled to have great new wine to dilute their water with. People were celebrating with wine, dammit. Buzzes were being had!

    As for *new* wine, I'm no linguist, but I have a great deal of difficulty with that. I can't think of a single language I'm familiar with where wine wasn't a separate word from juice. Not to mention the processing to turn the raw fluid into wine..

    My head hurts. Need beer.

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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by OtakuLoki View post
    As for *new* wine, I'm no linguist, but I have a great deal of difficulty with that. I can't think of a single language I'm familiar with where wine wasn't a separate word from juice. Not to mention the processing to turn the raw fluid into wine..
    Yeah, it's a fabrication as near as I can tell. Some looking around the web finds it isn't an entirely unique explanation, though, so I must be remembering right and they really did make that claim. Water is pure and wine is impure, so Jesus couldn't possibly make something pure into something impure, and so the Bible is wrong! But how do we know that Jesus was himself pure? Ah, from the Bible. Uh oh. So we'd better pretend it says something other than it says...

    Marsilia has had much more experience with fundamentalists than I have, and as an adult. Hopefully she'll drop her two cents here.
    So now they are just dirt-covered English people in fur pelts with credit cards.

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    Curmudgeon OtakuLoki's avatar
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    Oh I knew you weren't making it up. I'd actually heard that claim before. I'd just forgotten it when I asked my question.

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    A Groupie Marsilia's avatar
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    The Bible actually says that we aren't to become drunk with wine, which kinda makes sense in a way. It's one more of those things where the Bible says that obsessive behavior is bad and nothing should be more important than our relationship with God. Unfortunately, some people back in the day got together and said "Well, getting drunk is so easy, we should just not drink at all! God'll really love us then!"

    I'm not really sure why these fundies are so anti-alcohol, except as a way to keep away from all temptation, since there seems to be a general consensus about the weakness of man's will.
    So, I'll whisper in the dark, hoping you'll hear me.

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    Curmudgeon OtakuLoki's avatar
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    Thanks for speaking up, Marsilia. It was just a thought that came to me after reading an article in response to Fox's latest tempest in a teapot.

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    The Queen Zuul's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Marsilia View post
    I'm not really sure why these fundies are so anti-alcohol, except as a way to keep away from all temptation, since there seems to be a general consensus about the weakness of man's will.
    I'd assume that's it. It seems as though fundamentalists like to look for things they can easily avoid doing themselves (drinking, gay sex) and ignore all the big stuff Jesus actually spoke about (love your enemy, don't flaunt your prayers in public, give away your wealth).
    So now they are just dirt-covered English people in fur pelts with credit cards.

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    A Dude Peeta Mellark's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Marsilia View post
    The Bible actually says that we aren't to become drunk with wine, which kinda makes sense in a way. It's one more of those things where the Bible says that obsessive behavior is bad and nothing should be more important than our relationship with God. Unfortunately, some people back in the day got together and said "Well, getting drunk is so easy, we should just not drink at all! God'll really love us then!"

    I'm not really sure why these fundies are so anti-alcohol, except as a way to keep away from all temptation, since there seems to be a general consensus about the weakness of man's will.
    This is the kind of thing that blew my mind when I actually started reading the Bible for myself. My family isn't terribly religious for the area, but I went to a Christian private school because it was the best choice for education here and they taught us we aren't supposed to drink ever, amen. But that isn't the case. Drinking is treated as a normal, healthy part of life. Wine is a gift from God, for celebrating and enjoying life. Overindulgence is bad, but gluttony of any kind is bad. We're warned against overindulgence in food, but we aren't meant to starve ourselves.

    Fundamentalism has two aspects to it. On the one hand, they claim to be going for a truer, purer, more literal interpretation of the Bible, unlike all those sinners who are going to hell because they believe in Fluffy Hippie Jesus. On the other hand, they're actually taking a buffet style approach to the Bible. They pick out the morsels they like and ignore the larger context that might give greater meaning. They interpret those morsels through a particular lense to make it mean what they want it to mean, often by applying bizarre logic, and yet all the while they're yelling at the non-fundamentalist sects about not reading the Bible literally.

    As for how it was explained to me is that drinking alcohol was fine for Jesus and the Apostles because they were strong in their faith. The words of Paul that it's better to not eat meat or drink wine than to tempt your weaker brother are used in support of never drinking, because there's always somebody who is weak. Interestingly, finding a vegetarian Southern Baptist is about as easy as finding a virgin in a whorehouse. Again, they're taking the literal part from that passage they want (don't drink wine!) and ignoring the larger intended meaning (even though there is nothing inherently wrong with these activities, don't tempt someone who is having a hard time with moderation).

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    A Groupie Marsilia's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Peeta Mellark View post
    Interestingly, finding a vegetarian Southern Baptist is about as easy as finding a virgin in a whorehouse.
    Truer words, my friend. My everything-frying memaw's a Southern Baptist from Wilmore, KY.
    So, I'll whisper in the dark, hoping you'll hear me.

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